Para Ordinance buys Z-M Weapons

[Olav]

Just found out that Para Ordinance (http://www.paraord.com/) bought Z-M Weapons (http://zmweapons.com/lr_rifles.htm) and will start to manufacture their novel rifles in a couple of months when the get all the tooling in place.

I think this is exciting news and am happy that the ZM Weapons designed by Aldo Zitta will finally get more exposure.

I have one of these awesome guns and they are very accurate and keep very clean.

The guns have a modified direct impingement gas system that keeps most of the gases out of the bolt carrier group and lower receiver.

They also allow for the attachment of a folding butt stock and have less parts than the standard AR design.

Anyway, there's another option now available, hopefully more people will be exposed to this system and adopt it as it is a great system.

(Not affiliated with any parties)

[rifleshooter]

Having just bought my first Para handgun. I also am thinking this will be a very good thing for Para and the Z-M Weapons rifles.:)

[Littlelebowski]

The market is heating up. Anyone here with personal experience on a ZM rifle?

It sure is nice to see that big business is betting on Obama losing.

[Olav]

The market is heating up. Anyone here with personal experience on a ZM rifle?



Yah, I have one and they are great! Very accurate, light and reliable.

[rifleshooter]

Yah, I have one and they are great! Very accurate, light and reliable.

What range of prices for their rifles?

[Olav]

What range of prices for their rifles?

I guess ParaOrdinance will be setting the price schedule.

I talked to Al Zitta, and he speculated that the price should be considerably lower than the what they were selling for when produced in boutique quantities.

[Armati]

Awesome. I have always wanted one of these. ParaOrd's manufacturing, marketing and distribution capacities should vastly improve the price and availability of ZM uppers.

[rubberneck]

ZM has a pretty good reputation for quality, Para Ord not so much. Hopefully they can mass produce the ZM rifles will keeping standards pretty high.

[rifleshooter]

ZM has a pretty good reputation for quality, Para Ord not so much. Hopefully they can mass produce the ZM rifles will keeping standards pretty high.

I don't know about all of the Para firearms but my 3-1/2" single stack LDA
.45acp is a quality 1911. Fit is tight and it's a good shooter right out of the box with for me pretty good groups.

I don't think the quality will change with the ZM line of rifles.;)

[rubberneck]

I don't know about all of the Para firearms but my 3-1/2" single stack LDA
.45acp is a quality 1911. Fit is tight and it's a good shooter right out of the box with for me pretty good groups.

I don't think the quality will change with the ZM line of rifles.;)


There is a reason why most of the big name 1911 smiths won't touch Para's. They are too hit and miss. The one thing that Para does consistently is to be inconsistent. I suppose they are not unlike Bushmaster in that regards. If you have a good one chances are it is really good, if you have a bad one it is really bad.

None of that changes the fact the ZM's line of rifles have a really good reputation for quality. Hopefully para doesn't screw it up.

[TOrrock]

There is a reason why most of the big name 1911 smiths won't touch Para's. They are too hit and miss. The one thing that Para does consistently is to be inconsistent. I suppose they are not unlike Bushmaster in that regards. If you have a good one chances are it is really good, if you have a bad one it is really bad.

None of that changes the fact the ZM's line of rifles have a really good reputation for quality. Hopefully para doesn't screw it up.

The last time Canadians built a handgun that worked was John Inglis and his Hi Powers from WWII.

[rifleshooter]

There is a reason why most of the big name 1911 smiths won't touch Para's. They are too hit and miss. The one thing that Para does consistently is to be inconsistent. I suppose they are not unlike Bushmaster in that regards. If you have a good one chances are it is really good, if you have a bad one it is really bad.

None of that changes the fact the ZM's line of rifles have a really good reputation for quality. Hopefully para doesn't screw it up.

I sure would like to see some real proof of your posting about these BIG name 1911 Smiths not working on Para 1911s.;)

Also some real proof about your post Quote:The one thing that Para does consistently is to be inconsistent. End of quote:

I just don't like seeing any Firearm Company get battered in any forum without some real proof given.

[signal4l]

I sure would like to see some real proof of your posting about these BIG name 1911 Smiths not working on Para 1911s.;)

Also some real proof about your post Quote:The one thing that Para does consistently is to be inconsistent. End of quote:

I just don't like seeing any Firearm Company get battered in any forum without some real proof given.


Contact Hilton Yam. He qualifies as a "big name" smith. His advice is to aviod the para pistols.

[TOrrock]

I sure would like to see some real proof of your posting about these BIG name 1911 Smiths not working on Para 1911s.;)

Also some real proof about your post Quote:The one thing that Para does consistently is to be inconsistent. End of quote:

I just don't like seeing any Firearm Company get battered in any forum without some real proof given.


The shop I used to work at decided to stop selling them due to extremely poor reliablity, extremely poor customer service, and getting fed up with unsatisfied customers who purchased them.

They're garbage, by and large, and I don't know of many well regarded smiths who will touch them either.

[rifleshooter]

The shop I used to work at decided to stop selling them due to extremely poor reliablity, extremely poor customer service, and getting fed up with unsatisfied customers who purchased them.

They're garbage, by and large, and I don't know of many well regarded smiths who will touch them either.

I remember a guy who was bad mouthing Magpul in the forum. He offered no real proof of the problem with Magpul he just kept bad mouthing them.

For some reason he quit posting.;) Or was he asked to just leave the forum:o

Anyway bad mouthing a firearm Company or a Vendor with out solid proof not just I read it in G&A or someone told me this story is bad posting IMHO.

Give real solid proof of your comments please.:)

[Bigun]

I purchased a LDA CCW when the vaunted Para EXTractor came out it made 2 trips back to Para after the Extractor puked into the action tying it up at about the 500 round mark. I got it back and the finish on the grip safety started flaking off and the mag catch broke dumping the mag so it went back and I got rid of it as soon as I got it back. P.O.S. and I will never buy another. Its a shame because it was accurate as hell and never jammed unless a part broke. :(

[rubberneck]

I sure would like to see some real proof of your posting about these BIG name 1911 Smiths not working on Para 1911s.;)

Also some real proof about your post Quote:The one thing that Para does consistently is to be inconsistent. End of quote:

I just don't like seeing any Firearm Company get battered in any forum without some real proof given.

Dave Dawson used to offer a line of modded up Para gun's which was a natural because he built all of Todd Jarrett's guns. Yes even the factory shooter had to go to an outside smith to get a workable end product but I digress. Any ways Dawson stopped working on Para's because they required too much extra work just to get to an acceptable level.

As has been pointed out Hilton Yam won't touch them. Ted Yost won't touch them. Jim Garthwaite won't either. There are others but apparently I gored your sacred cow. Apparently you are the only one out there that hasn't heard of the qc issues with Para Ords. Next time I'll be sure to include footnotes and signed letters from gunsmiths that won't work on them.:rolleyes:

[rifleshooter]

Dave Dawson used to offer a line of modded up Para gun's which was a natural because he built all of Todd Jarrett's guns. Yes even the factory shooter had to go to an outside smith to get a workable end product but I digress. Any ways Dawson stopped working on Para's because they required too much extra work just to get to an acceptable level.

As has been pointed out Hilton Yam won't touch them. Ted Yost won't touch them. Jim Garthwaite won't either. There are others but apparently I gored your sacred cow. Apparently you are the only one out there that hasn't heard of the qc issues with Para Ords. Next time I'll be sure to include footnotes and signed letters from gunsmiths that won't work on them.:rolleyes:

I have been reading the handgun forums for years. I read Kimber haters posts I read H&K haters posts I read S&W haters posts I read Colt haters posts I read Springfield haters posts I read Rock River haters posts I read Para haters posts I read I also read all the major BIG time custom 1911 builder haters posts.

And they all have the same common rap. So many diffrent raps I can't even take time to post them all. Like they use MIM parts they won't work with my reloaded Ammo. they won't work with my Wolf Ammo. They won't work when run dry. They won't shoot a good group and I shoot great groups with my Glock.:mad:

So it's all just what some think and what they want to believe.

But again posting a bunch of firearm Company hatred without real detailed proof behind each so called firearm failure is again IMHO poor posting.;)

[rubberneck]

But again posting a bunch of firearm Company hatred without real detailed proof behind each so called firearm failure is again IMHO poor posting.;)

If you want to believe that Para Ords are the bees knees than good for you. I am done wasting my time with you. You apparently have all the answers.:rolleyes:

[rifleshooter]

If you want to believe that Para Ords are the bees knees than good for you. I am done wasting my time with you. You apparently have all the answers.:rolleyes:

I don't have all the answers. I just don't think people should bad mouth any firearm Company without posting real details as to their problems.

Is every part on every production 1911 100% perfect? No is anything 100% perfect? No.

I own Kimbers H&Ks Springfields Paras Glocks. Could IMHO some of their parts be better? Yes. Does this mean the parts they are suppling are no good? No.

Are you really getting a better more dependable 1911s for the amount of money required from Mr. Wilsons gunsmiths? or Mr. Browns gunsmiths? or any of the other Major 1911 Custom builders? IMHO not really.

I am sure others will disagree that fine with me it's their money not mine.

I am happy with what I have bought.;)

[rubberneck]

I don't have all the answers. I just don't think people should bad mouth any firearm Company without posting real details as to their problems.


There is a fallacy built into your argument. A sample size of one (good, bad or indifferent) is useless. It tells you nothing except about that one particular gun. If men who make a living off of wrenching on 1911's don't want to work on them (they aren't doing it for free) than that is what I would like to call a clue. You asked for names and I gave them to you but apparently that isn't good enough.

If the guy responsible for building Todd Jarrett's guns won't touch them, other than for Todd, what does that tell you?

In fairness to the people who care about the actual subject of this thread I won't discuss this with you any further. Best of luck to you and your Para.

[TOrrock]

I remember a guy who was bad mouthing Magpul in the forum. He offered no real proof of the problem with Magpul he just kept bad mouthing them.

For some reason he quit posting.;) Or was he asked to just leave the forum:o

Anyway bad mouthing a firearm Company or a Vendor with out solid proof not just I read it in G&A or someone told me this story is bad posting IMHO.

Give real solid proof of your comments please.:)


Dude, I just gave you my PERSONAL experience with several hundred of them.

They're crap.

If you have one that you're happy with, brother, good for you.

[ToddG]

But again posting a bunch of firearm Company hatred without real detailed proof behind each so called firearm failure is again IMHO poor posting.;)

Except a number of the people you're blowing off as "offering no proof" are giving you proof. What do you want, a hand written letter from Jim Garthwaite saying that he won't work on Paras because they are subpar?

My local county PD SWAT spent years sending their Paras to multiple gunsmiths trying to get them to run reliably. End result: spent hundreds of thousands of my tax dollars before switching to the G21. Clue.

Ever hear of FBI HRT? They used Paras ... or at least tried to. That didn't work out any better than it did for my friends at Montgomery Co. PD. Clue.

Para makes a gun almost ergonomically identical to a traditional 1911 yet has twice the capacity. Why aren't we seeing them in the hands of LAPD SWAT and other avowed 1911 users? Clue.

Para makes a gun much less expensive than similarly spec'd high cap 1911s for competition, yet almost none of the top (or even serious) competitive shooters are using their guns. Clue.

As with many previous posts, I'm not listing internet myth here. These are facts. The facts may disrupt your personal impression of your individual example of a Para that runs great for you. But they are still facts.

To paraphrase Dinger's signature line: You're not your gun. So stop taking it personally when people point out that the manufacturer of your gun has a spotty reputation.

[m.adams]

I own a P14.45 that I've had for 17 years.. purchased in 1991, it's been to Dave Berryhill (Tune, DeHorn & refinish), and Steve Morrison(Novak Lomounts) - sure it works, when I use good magazines(OEM), I know I'm lucky.

If I knew 17 years ago what I know now.. that Para would have never left Kings Gun Works showcase :rolleyes:

[HolyRoller]

Say rifleshooter, how about this test:

Fire a thousand rounds of factory ball ammo through your Para, cleaned as necessary and always well lubed, and tell us how it went.

Fire another thousand rounds, half ball and half decent defensive load, through your clean and well-lubed Para, and tell us how it went.

I don't want any good guy's gun to fail and I hope yours works. If it does work, then you get to tell everybody about it. The only way to find out is to shoot it a significant amount. Of course, make sure you get proper training value out of every shot you fire.

[Armati]

If I may ask... what particular problems are people seeing in ParaOrds? I don't have a dog in this fight but I considered getting one of their single stack DA guns. What should I look for and/or avoid?

Thanks.

[Olav]

If I may ask... what particular problems are people seeing in ParaOrds? I don't have a dog in this fight but I considered getting one of their single stack DA guns. What should I look for and/or avoid?

Thanks.

Why don't you start a new thread? Maybe it will stay on topic...
:rolleyes:

[rifleshooter]

Say rifleshooter, how about this test:

Fire a thousand rounds of factory ball ammo through your Para, cleaned as necessary and always well lubed, and tell us how it went.

Fire another thousand rounds, half ball and half decent defensive load, through your clean and well-lubed Para, and tell us how it went.

I don't want any good guy's gun to fail and I hope yours works. If it does work, then you get to tell everybody about it. The only way to find out is to shoot it a significant amount. Of course, make sure you get proper training value out of every shot you fire.
====
I guess one could shoot thousands of rounds. Me if it works with 500 to 700 without a failure I say it's good to go.

Also shooting quality carry Ammo. at $1/1.5 a round well I shoot say 20 rounds of quality carry Ammo.

When it's my H&Ks I never worry they don't fail never.;)

I have over 700 rounds shoot in my new stainless Para LDA .45 with no problems. So if I need it I depend on it 100%:)

[ColtCCO]

====
I guess one could shoot thousands of rounds. Me if it works with 500 to 700 without a failure I say it's good to go.

Also shooting quality carry Ammo. at $1/1.5 a round well I shoot say 20 rounds of quality carry Ammo.

When it's my H&Ks I never worry they don't fail never.;)

I have over 700 rounds shoot in my new stainless Para LDA .45 with no problems. So if I need it I depend on it 100%:)

Sample size of one, with a very low round count. You think Delta or LAPD SWAT shoots 20 rounds of carry ammo, and calls it a day? We're retreading the same ground here.

We've seen dozens and dozens through our shop, and now all Para handguns brought in for gunsmithing go directly back to Para. We don't work on them, because no matter what we fix, over a long enough timeline(not very), something will break or stop working. There's been several big name 'smiths in this thread, with decades of experience on their side, accurately mentioned in conjuction with the fact that they will not work on Para pistols, because all you get is an expertly polished turd, no matter who you take it to. Our head gunsmith, of four gunsmiths working at our shop, has 23 years of experience, and takes in STI pistols from Master Class IPSC shooters from around the nation, because they trust only him to work on them, and he does world class work. If he didn't get bored working on the same kind of 1911, day in and day out, he'd be listed with John Harrison, Hilton Yam, and the ilk for his pistol work. He flatly states that Para pistols are not worth their weight in the cast pot metal they're made from, and the only thing that can make a Para pistol worse is for it to include LDA parts. He's shown me breakages that never happen in other brands of 1911, repeatedly.

I'm really glad your Para LDA pistol works for you, and I hope that one working Para makes you happy, but your anecdotal evidence is worth the internet it's printed on, and nothing more. Like other posters above, our gunsmiths have seen hundreds, and the prognosis trends from 'glad that's working for you now' to 'Broke? Yeah, that's never gonna work again. Why? Because it's a Painted Ordnance.'

Read ToddG's comments about who tried Para, and ditched them, because over a high round count, they all go to shit. If that doesn't clue you in to the reality about the quality of a Para pistol, then you're in denial. Just don't say we didn't tell you, and don't try to pass of one of the ten working Para pistols in the USA with a round count over 500 as overall proof of quality for the product line.

[rifleshooter]

Sample size of one, with a very low round count. You think Delta or LAPD SWAT shoots 20 rounds of carry ammo, and calls it a day? We're retreading the same ground here.

We've seen dozens and dozens through our shop, and now all Para handguns brought in for gunsmithing go directly back to Para. We don't work on them, because no matter what we fix, over a long enough timeline(not very), something will break or stop working. There's been several big name 'smiths in this thread, with decades of experience on their side, accurately mentioned in conjuction with the fact that they will not work on Para pistols, because all you get is an expertly polished turd, no matter who you take it to. Our head gunsmith, of four gunsmiths working at our shop, has 23 years of experience, and takes in STI pistols from Master Class IPSC shooters from around the nation, because they trust only him to work on them, and he does world class work. If he didn't get bored working on the same kind of 1911, day in and day out, he'd be listed with John Harrison, Hilton Yam, and the ilk for his pistol work. He flatly states that Para pistols are not worth their weight in the cast pot metal they're made from, and the only thing that can make a Para pistol worse is for it to include LDA parts. He's shown me breakages that never happen in other brands of 1911, repeatedly.

I'm really glad your Para LDA pistol works for you, and I hope that one working Para makes you happy, but your anecdotal evidence is worth the internet it's printed on, and nothing more. Like other posters above, our gunsmiths have seen hundreds, and the prognosis trends from 'glad that's working for you now' to 'Broke? Yeah, that's never gonna work again. Why? Because it's a Painted Ordnance.'

Read ToddG's comments about who tried Para, and ditched them, because over a high round count, they all go to shit. If that doesn't clue you in to the reality about the quality of a Para pistol, then you're in denial. Just don't say we didn't tell you, and don't try to pass of one of the ten working Para pistols in the USA with a round count over 500 as overall proof of quality for the product line.

well all I am going to say is it's my money and I buy a lot of firearms as I posted before my real carry handguns are my H&K USP Compacts both .40sw&.45acp. Any bad news about my choice of H&Ks?

Well now I have another new AR so my time will be taken with giving it a good run in. Any bad news about LM&T?

I always will to hear "read" what people post about firearms with and open mind.

I don't always agree with what people post and don't expect everyone to agree with my posts or my way of doing things.

At this time it's almost still a free Country I live in maybe things will change.:(

[ToddG]

So having established with some significant degree of confidence that many of us have a negative opinion of ParaO while rifleshooter is perfectly happy with his ParaO which appears to be running just fine ...

Is there any other discussion pertaining to assault rifles for this thread?

[Armati]

Why don't you start a new thread? Maybe it will stay on topic...
:rolleyes:


Actually, I think it does relate directly to the topic. Follow me here....

The 1911 is a 'good' gun. The ParaOrd 1911 is a 'bad' gun. Why? Is it a design flaw in ParaOrd double stacks and DA guns, or is it a fundamental QC issue?

If it is a fundamental QC issue then those production issues could easily make their way into the ZM production run. If ParaOrd's problems are related to flawed design then the ZM guns should be fine if they do not meddle with them.

[Bigun]

Both but mostly the shoddy materials they use in their construction. Mine had 2 catastrophic failures in less than 1200 rounds and another that was cosmetic it made 2 trips back to Para ON MY DIME, no reimbersement and the initial cost was similar to either a Kimber or Springer so it was far from a budget pistol. The only bright spot in my whole experience was that I was able to trade it across the board for a 1945 Remington Rand 1911 in great condition so at least I didnt loose money on the deal. It really is a shame because it the CCW LDA is a great idea only poorly executed.

[rifleshooter]

Both but mostly the shoddy materials they use in their construction. Mine had 2 catastrophic failures in less than 1200 rounds and another that was cosmetic it made 2 trips back to Para ON MY DIME, no reimbersement and the initial cost was similar to either a Kimber or Springer so it was far from a budget pistol. The only bright spot in my whole experience was that I was able to trade it across the board for a 1945 Remington Rand 1911 in great condition so at least I didnt loose money on the deal. It really is a shame because it the CCW LDA is a great idea only poorly executed.

I am going to keep shooting mine a lot more now then I planned on doing. And will report any failures to the forum members.