View Full Version : Considering the Snub Nose Reload - Spares Carry
Snub interest and discussion has been particularly popular of late, so I offer the following as we deepen our knowledge base and consider our options.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Revo%20Reload%20Project/revoreloadsetup.jpg
Purpose: Compare the time required to reload and fire 20 rounds from a 5-shot snub revolver using three spare ammunition carry methods.
Start position: 5 fired cases placed in the cylinder, gun held in a two handed firing grip, covering a target placed at 7 yards. Spare ammunition set out on a table top in front of the shooter.
Instructions: On the tone from the shot timer continuously reload from the loader specified (below), firing the ammunition in the cylinder to the designated target zone until 20 total rounds have been fired.
Target: 8”/-0 zone, RGT-1 target (https://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=RGT-1)
Drill 1: Safariland Comp 1 Speed Loader
Loaded: Capacity
Time (1): 34.51, Clean, 1:1.73 sec
Time (2): 31.68, 17/20 hits, 1:1.58 sec
Drill 2: Bianchi Speed Strips
Loaded: 4 strips of 5 rounds each
Time: 52.02, 18/20 hits, 1:2.6 sec
Drill 3: Bianchi Speed Strips
Loaded: 5 strips of 4 rounds each, load to middle four slots
Time: 54.27, 18/20 hits, 1:2.71 sec
Notes and Discussion:
Target size and distance was chosen to prevent artificially rapid fire for the sake of setting up the reload.
Spares carriers (pouches, pockets, etc) were not utilized to prevent giving any reload configuration possible advantage.
20 rounds was the quantity selected as it was the lowest mathematical intersection for the chosen reload configurations.
Reloading via speed loader was ~34% and ~40% faster than the lowest time for any speed strip configuration.
The rate of fire averaged over each string with speed loaders was 1 round every 1.58 and 1.73 seconds. The best speed strip run was 1 round every 2.6 seconds.
For the two speed strip configurations, it took approximately the same amount of time to load and fire the revolver with 4 rounds 5 times, as reloading with 5 rounds 4 times. This is due to the amount of time required to index the speed strip and cylinder to load the remaining fifth round each time. The four round speed strip returns the gun to a firing condition quicker, but with 20% less ammunition. The five round speed strip leaves the gun down longer during reloads, but at full capacity when brought back to target.
Summary: The limited capacity of the snub revolver does not negate its value as life support gear, nor its ability to accurately place rounds on target if the shooter can deliver. It does require an additional layer of deliberate planning and training for keeping it loaded and able to fight. Many shooters will consider concealment and convenience in the choice of reloads, without regard to performance. The information above may be helpful to them.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Revo%20Reload%20Project/revoreloadtarget.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-04-14, 15:24
Awesome post
Thank you for taking the time to put this together and post this!
I for one am guilty of choosing my J frame reloads by convenience (speed strips) with less regard for the actual speed. I was thinking the other day after watching some video from the recent HITS (I think that was the class) that was posted here that I may need to rethink my choice.
The problem is, when I carry a J frame it is usually for the sake of concealability. To add traditional speed loaders, with their greater bulk, defeats the purpose in a t-shirt and shorts. I may have to experiment with some kind of belt pouch or kydex to see if I can find something that works for me.
Voodoo_Man
11-04-14, 16:30
good stuff
Horseman45
11-04-14, 17:25
Very interesting. Figure out the inner tube riddle yet?
Doc Safari
11-04-14, 17:33
Questions:
1. HKS speedloaders use a "turn" knob, the other brand uses a spring-loaded button. Any speculation as to which might be the quickest? ( I have trouble using the spring-loaded type, so it's a moot point for me).
2. Any pointers on reloading without "stuff getting hung up"?
3. Something I've always wondered: when you speed reload a revolver, are you trying to carefully reclose the cylinder to avoid even the possibility of bending the ejector rod, or do you just slam it home? The reason I ask this is because the times I've handled a Ruger SP101 I always looked at its ejector rod as somewhat fragile. I have actually seen a couple of these damaged on SP101's at gun shows over the years. I carry a Smith 642 myself, so I'm not as concerned, but that's one of those "fifty questions you've always wanted to ask about firearms but didn't want to look like an idiot."
4. Given that guns like the J-frame have short ejector rods, you (mostly) have to assist getting the empties out even after plunging on the ejector. Any tips on doing this better?
Questions:
1. HKS speedloaders use a "turn" knob, the other brand uses a spring-loaded button. Any speculation as to which might be the quickest? ( I have trouble using the spring-loaded type, so it's a moot point for me).
I prefer the Comp 1 to the HKS. The Comp 1 is smaller and needs only a little extra push when I seat the rounds. The HKS is larger, and needs a deliberate turn of a knob. I do like the extra play rounds have in the HKS when hunting for the charging holes.
2. Any pointers on reloading without "stuff getting hung up"?
I'm a fan of these techniques. When used as instructed, the path to the cylinder is kept nice and open for cases to drop out, and loading devices to get in.
Reload, right handed shooter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjRTdXvjBmE
Reload, left handed shooter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjkmfOGSVH8
3. Something I've always wondered: when you speed reload a revolver, are you trying to carefully reclose the cylinder to avoid even the possibility of bending the ejector rod, or do you just slam it home? The reason I ask this is because the times I've handled a Ruger SP101 I always looked at its ejector rod as somewhat fragile. I have actually seen a couple of these damaged on SP101's at gun shows over the years. I carry a Smith 642 myself, so I'm not as concerned, but that's one of those "fifty questions you've always wanted to ask about firearms but didn't want to look like an idiot."
I just push the cylinder straight back into window deliberately. Neither gently nor slamming it, just what it needs without worrying about it. Short of spinning the cylinder and flicking it shut with your wrist, I don't think you're going to do it any harm.
4. Given that guns like the J-frame have short ejector rods, you (mostly) have to assist getting the empties out even after plunging on the ejector. Any tips on doing this better?
You can minimize stuck cases by keeping the charging holes clean and smooth. Use quality ammunition loaded in in decent brass at reasonable pressures. Strike the ejector rod deliberately while the cylinder is on the vertical with a clear airspace underneath. Given enough fouling, cases are going to hang so you may have to pick at them eventually no matter what.
I prefer the Comp 1 to the HKS. The Comp 1 is smaller and needs only a little extra push when I seat the rounds. The HKS is larger, and needs a deliberate turn of a knob. I do like the extra play rounds have in the HKS when hunting for the charging holes.
+1 for the Comp I.
The HKS requires both hands to actuate. One hand has to hold the cylinder still while the release knob is turned by the other.
You can minimize stuck cases by keeping the charging holes clean and smooth. Use quality ammunition loaded in in decent brass at reasonable pressures. Strike the ejector rod deliberately while the cylinder is on the vertical with a clear airspace underneath. Given enough fouling, cases are going to hang so you may have to pick at them eventually no matter what.
^ Good advice.
Suggest training with cases that -are- a little bit reluctant to come out of the cylinder (just bend the case mouths slightly).
Add emphasis to keeping the gun vertical (up) during the ejection stroke and vertical (down) for the loading motion.
Try to get the cylinder closed before passing about 45° on the way back to the threat. The rounds can start to slide back out of the chambers and complicate getting the gun going again.
If you have that one mastered already, try it while fighting from the ground.
SeriousStudent
11-04-14, 23:39
Interesting thread. I definitely agree with the idea of testing your assumptions, especially on something that can be glacially slow if you screw it up.
I use the method of two rounds, skip a space, then two rounds on a Bianchi speed strip. Chuck Haggard taught me that earlier this year, and it proved to be the fastest way for me to use a speed strip.
I like the Safariland speedloaders, as I am unable to find SL Variant models anywhere. I usually carry a speed strip in the watch pocket of my jeans. But I keep the Safariland speedloaders stashed everywhere - in the car, at home, in my backpacks and briefcases, and other strategic spots.
All- Whether a snub enthusiast or explorer, consider taking a box of ammo to the range and trying different methods out for yourself. If you have a shot timer of some sort, consider adding your own data to the knowledge base here.
HKS speedloader? Doing the twist is for Chubby Checker. I prefer Safariland Comp I/II's, JetLoaders and SL Variants.
The ruger ejector rod is sturdy. I spanked the baby all weekend at HiTS with zero issues.
Also consider never again loading a revolver directly from your box of ammunition. Instead, make a habit of putting cartridges in your loading device of choice and use the loader to charge the cylinder.
I thought about trying this for myself but I'll skip it after finding your results.
Thanks for doing this, you findings correlated with my guess about what my results would be. I dnot have the same speed loaders but I don't think that would change anything.
I use speed strips for all my loading to build memory. I don't think I will carry a speed loader they are pretty bulky. I'm looking into this currently because I want to leave the g19 (which i carry a spare mag and snub as 2nd) at home some days this summer and carry a snub iwb and a 2nd gun in pocket. I'd like to carry a reload for either the snub or the pocket pistol but not both. Then again I may just put a reload for each in my vehicle and carry a knife instead.
I'll add that carrying a second gun isn't just as a backup. It's also another choice. I have yet to find a draw quicker than already having a firing grip on the gun.
Anyway right now im thinking reloading the pocket auto or drawing a knife should both be faster and easier than reloading the revolver. But the revolver has the accuacy and full-caliber advantages.Thoughts?
Fordtough25
02-26-16, 11:53
Excellent thread thank you for posting! I've recently started training with my 642 again and have been toying with the hks speed loader. I need to snag some speed strips as I think they're s better option for actual reload carry.
MtnMan6114
02-26-16, 19:06
Awesome thread and food for thought. I'll never be as fast as he is in the video but agree with practicing loading with my two HKS speedloaders so if and when the time ever comes. Also makes me wonder about the reliability of the Taurus ejector rod-or should I say the durability after many fast reloads have been done?
Thanks for posting this!
My formal firearms training is minimal but will share what caused my first on the range ass chewing. The weapon was S&W M-65. I was dumping empties into my hand instead of on the ground. Bad habit from saving brass for reloading. Anybody here making that mistake?
Remember that if you're shooting one of the J frames in .357 and using .357 mag loads, the mag round is 1/10 inch longer and may be very prone to hanging up on the extractor star.
Remember that if you're shooting one of the J frames in .357 and using .357 mag loads, the mag round is 1/10 inch longer and may be very prone to hanging up on the extractor star.
Yea, If reloading is part of your plans it's best to keep those chambers clean for best extraction.
Like you said especially with .357 ammo. Nickel plated casings help a little IMO. It's something to be aware of. I don't get Geco (German) .357 ammo anymore because extraction is often sticky. I would have to put the rod against a wood bench and push on the cylinder or smack it with a plastic mallet to get a casing out sometimes. The LCR ejector rod has held up. I think (I hope) I've used all of the Geco .357 I had. It's also full power and kicks hard.
Geco's .38 special LRN ammo is really pleasant to fire, easy to extract, pretty accurate and clean, too. Remington 110 gr SJHP is what I practice most of my .357 mag shooting with. (It's not a full power load. Rated less velocity than the 125 gr and much less recoil/blast) Recoil is barely any more than .38 +p.
I got some .38 Short Colt (Or what Magtech calls ".38 Special Short") ammo to see if the LCR extractor would push them all the way out. Nope! But damn near, they pop out real easy.
I'll never be as fast as he is in the video
Video? I wanna see! Link?
srcochran49
02-28-16, 11:39
Started my law enforcement career back in the revolver days. We went through the progression from dump pouches, to speed strips, to hks speed loaders. No doubt that speed loaders are much quicker, and generally eliminate dropped rounds.
It wasn't uncommon for LEO's to dump empties into their hand until a few were killed in shoot outs and found with the empties in their hand, and an empty gun. Training then changed to stress a straight cylinder dump onto the ground
I've been practicing. The round loaders are much faster, but I'm not going to carry those bulky things.
I have found that from empty gun, to pulling a loading strip out of my pocket, back to loaded gun on target typical takes 7-10 seconds if I don't mess up.
Seven seconds is only loading 4 cartridges and closing cylinder with empty chamber straight up. While this speeds up the total time a little of the time saved is lost during the cylinder indexing. This is also takes the eyes off our threat for a moment more.
This is what I can do with perfect circumstances. Trying to do this while moving, dropping a round, having a stubborn brass needing to be pulled out, etc can easily increase the time. Of course stress will add time, too.
I also found that reloading my pocket pistol, even with no last shot hold-open, takes half the time or less to reload than my LCR from strips. I'd rather have the weaker and higher capacity pocket pistol back in action than spend the extra 5-? seconds working to reload the revolver.
I'll carry a pocket pistol to back up the revolver. If I feel the need to carry reloads, I'll carry reloads for the pistol. (Or carry my Glock 19 :))
Best snub by trainers these days (in no particular order) are Michael deBethencourt, Grant Cunningham & Claude Werner.
Eurodriver
03-02-16, 09:08
You guys reload those strips pretty freaking fast. I almost exclusively carry a 642 these days due to required attire. In a Smartcarry I can literally conceal a 642 in boxers or board shorts and no t-shirt. The strips allow for reloads much better than bulky speed loaders, but I can't load them things fast at all. I mean it is a lonngggg process.
Great thread.
My formal firearms training is minimal but will share what caused my first on the range ass chewing. The weapon was S&W M-65. I was dumping empties into my hand instead of on the ground. Bad habit from saving brass for reloading. Anybody here making that mistake?
Me!
I still cringe when I dump my nickel plated 38 brass on to the ground, but I can always clean them later...
I almost exclusively carry a 642 these days due to required attire. In a Smartcarry I can literally conceal a 642 in boxers or board shorts and no t-shirt.
Sounds hot. Pics? :lol:
One nice thing about strips is they are cheap.
Much cheaper than round loaders. Also strip loaders work with all revolvers.
I have a couple dozen of the 8-shot strips. I load each with 5 rounds and when I practice I only reload with them. Builds memory. But it will never be a fast operation.
I use the 8-shot strips because they always stand up in pocket and give you more to find/grip. I load two on the end, then a space, then two, a space, then one.
Eurodriver
03-05-16, 17:24
Sounds hot. Pics? :lol:
I made a post in one of these forums about a year ago. It should still be up. :cool:
MtnMan6114
03-05-16, 20:00
Video? I wanna see! Link?
First page of the thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjRTdXvjBmE
I like the technique demonstrated by Michael de Bethencourt. The only variation to the technique that I use is that I do not move the thumb of the strong hand to the hammer and use it to activate the cylinder release.
As Massad Ayoob pointed out in the follow up video, you do not want to use a technique used in a PPC match to reload under stress.
A J Frame is not the best option for a defensive handgun, but it is easily concealed and properly operated can still be effective.
A few notes on MdB:
1. That is the most serious I have ever seen Michael. He is something of a joker. (Michael once introduced a fellow instructor by saying that the instructor would demonstrate a technique for one-handed, off-hand revolver reloading. The poor guy had no such technique in mind. To his credit, he was game and ad libbed one on the spot. It involved a sock.)
2. Michael spent some time finding retired police snub shooters and asking them about their techniques, before they were lost to time and semi-autos. As I recall, the technique he demonstrates in the video is from Canada.
3. Michael has also discussed the "Newhall Incident" in his classes. One alternative method that might have saved at least one officer's life was the "load two, shoot two" technique. I have not been able to get to the OP's speed with any method, so I might have to resort to that to prevent getting rushed. Flexibility is important, even as we search and practice for speedy reloads.
I don't think of any of my snubbies as primary. I have automatic for that job. I do have HKS for my S&W 637 38 and they work fairly well, I also use HKS For my Taurus 605 (357/38). I have Tuff Strips for 38/357 too as they are universal, A handy leather pouch for a strip with 38's. The 38 Strips work with .40 S&W also and I have a Charter Arms Pitbull in 40 and last week bought one in 9. I am looking for one in 45. Pitbull's are fairly well made, all of them including the 9 MM are large frame, so not as concealable as I first thought when I was one of the first to get a 40. It shoots well, I have not shot the 9. Speed loaders are not an option for a Pitbull. Speed Strips are the only real option for a Pitbull. When unloading you swing the cylinder out and then depress the ejection rod and two or three empty rounds will fall off the star, but a gentle shake will be needed to get the others to fall., it is then normal. If you happen to be unlading unfired rounds, you will need that rod all the way in and shake some more. The little spring loaded retainers in each cylinder hole will prevent rounds from just dropping in, they have to be pushed in to get the retainer to retract until the round's notch in the case comes by and the retainer snaps in it just below the rim. I like having one in my carry auto's caliber, thinking if something went wrong with my primary I might have extra ammo for my backup. These guns are big though, that kind of negates some of that thinking.
I do have three Ruger LCRs, one 8 shooter in 22LR that is fun to shoot, one 38 5 shooter, that I never carry and a 6 shooter 327 Federal Magnum that I do carry all winter in my coat or jacket. The 327 is a pleasure to shoot with 32 H&R Magnum rounds, but a real pain to shoot with hardwood grips and 327 Federal. I have switched to the longer Hogue Tamer grip, but I have not shot it with those yet. I do carry two Tuff strip spares
I need to shoot my revolvers more.
PriseDeFer
03-21-16, 10:04
Nickle plated cases have been a bit slicker coming out of my 442, but look at the videos and go smooth and slow 'till you them all falling straight down. It was surprisingly easy for me to block one with the thumb of the gun hand.
A few notes on MdB:
1. That is the most serious I have ever seen Michael. He is something of a joker. (Michael once introduced a fellow instructor by saying that the instructor would demonstrate a technique for one-handed, off-hand revolver reloading. The poor guy had no such technique in mind. To his credit, he was game and ad libbed one on the spot. It involved a sock.)
Reloading a J Frame using only the support hand takes time, but can be done if you practice a solid technique. I haven't heard about using a sock and would like to hear how that technique works.
2. Michael spent some time finding retired police snub shooters and asking them about their techniques, before they were lost to time and semi-autos. As I recall, the technique he demonstrates in the video is from Canada.
I started competing with revolvers in the 1970's and shot PPC with a revolver for years. I learned a great deal about how to shoot a revolver effective from LEO who worked in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. I was amazed at how fast some of them could manipulate both a full size revolver and a small 5 shot wheel gun. I learned a few things from LEO who had to use a j Frame to fight their way out of trouble.
3. Michael has also discussed the "Newhall Incident" in his classes. One alternative method that might have saved at least one officer's life was the "load two, shoot two" technique. I have not been able to get to the OP's speed with any method, so I might have to resort to that to prevent getting rushed. Flexibility is important, even as we search and practice for speedy reloads.
The incident in Newhall (Los Angeles) California is a good incident to study and revealed how training applies in a force on force incident
I have multiple options for concealed carry, but most often choose a J Frame when leaving the house. If the opportunity presents itself, I wouldn't mind taking a J Frame course taught by Mr. de Bethencourt
A couple things I've been working on to save reload time using speed strips.
-Drawing speed strips from something other than a pocket will really save time. I need to find a belt pouch that will hold one or two eight-round length speed strips. (maybe just a sunglass case?)
-Loading four rounds and indexing the empty chamber in line with the barrel is still quicker for me than loading all five.
-Loading four rounds and NOT indexing the empty chamber is faster still.
-Loading two and indexing so you get a bang on the next trigger pull is fastest, and could be done twice before ejecting brass again.
-When time counts let cartridges that get loose fall.
-Learn the proper ways of using your revolver as an impact weapon.
-As we already know, the rounder/pointier the bullet the easier/faster it will get in the chamber. (no more full wadcutters during practice and choose carry reloads accordingly)
Ron3 I do have a 6 round of 38 speed strip pouch from RKBA (https://squareup.com/market/rkba-holsters/item/speed-strip-pouch) and it is a great way to carry six 38 rounds, the strip comes out easily, no fuss or muss.
Ron3 I do have a 6 round of 38 speed strip pouch from RKBA (https://squareup.com/market/rkba-holsters/item/speed-strip-pouch) and it is a great way to carry six 38 rounds, the strip comes out easily, no fuss or muss.
Thanks.
Thats not bad. I was hoping to find/make something that will hold the strips horizontally (Maybe with a buttoned flap/cover) since my strips are pretty long. They hold eight rounds but I normally load them with five. They are easier to grab/handle.
Edited to add: Found this...http://www.dillonprecision.com/ihl-speed-strip-wallet-black-38-357-8-round_8_22_25667.html
that looks like it was designed for you.
I should run that drill again...
I carry a model S&W model 36 and a backup model 36 as well hard to beat the NY reload for timed fire despite how fast you think you can reload under stress.
Lost River
04-05-17, 19:40
I carry a model S&W model 36 and a backup model 36 as well hard to beat the NY reload for timed fire despite how fast you think you can reload under stress.
Not to mention if/when one of your guns goes down:
This is a firing pin from my J Frame 442.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/IMG_0993_zps01oqffih.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/IMG_0993_zps01oqffih.jpg.html)
I was examining my friend's new, unfired 442 and with permission dry fired it. Each time sparks flew from the firing pin hole in the firewall. Obviously friction was the cause. In 47 years of handling Smith's I've never before observed this event and can't help but wonder whether or not it's a real issue.
Doc Safari
04-06-17, 13:36
I was examining my friend's new, unfired 442 and with permission dry fired it. Each time sparks flew from the firing pin hole in the firewall. Obviously friction was the cause. In 47 years of handling Smith's I've never before observed this event and can't help but wonder whether or not it's a real issue.
Back in the 90's you could actually dry fire the pistol enough to begin drifting the firing pin bushing out of the frame. My philosophy has always been "don't dry fire a J-frame."
Thanks for the information, great posts!
This post is great. Thank you for sharing.
I'm trying to work out the best method of reloading my new Kimber k6s (my first modern revolver), and I'm finding that the smooth cylinder walls interfere with Michael de Bethencourt's technique. The only speed loaders that fit (afaik) are made by 5-star, and the cylinder wants to rotate with the turn of the speed loader. It works fine with Massad Ayoob's stress reload technique, however, but pistol + speed loader + speed strip really clogs up the right side of my belt.
I've contemplated using both techniques; left hand for speed loaders and right hand for speed strips, but that seems like it would unnecessarily complicate the muscle memory at a potentially critical moment.
OP, in your upcoming re-do, have you considered a J frame converted for moon clips? It would be interesting to see a comparison of moons -vs- speed loaders. They are slightly smaller than speed loaders and it is one package in and outta the gun. Problem is trying for a load 2 shoot 2 drill.
I used to carry my 642-1 with HKS speedloaders... did it for years. Main problem I had was the loader and ammo is pretty long.
I picked up a 9mm converted cylinder off AR15.com, which I had fitted and refinished to match my revolver (NP3 Plus). 9mm on moon clips is a lot shorter than .38s... even on moon clips. I prefer shorter reloads, as they are easier to load/unload, and they make carrying more ammo a little easier. Was never a moon clip guy, but going with the 9mm conversion really got me interested in them. While I still have the .38 cylinder, not having it modified for moon clips (would do it prior to NP3, but not after)... might do it for my 6" 629-1.
For moon clips, look up the BMT loader. They cost a little bit of money, but definitely worth it.
PattonWasRight
04-18-17, 11:07
Question on moon clips ... are they prone to bending/distortion. Can you carry one "loose" or do you need a holster/protector of some sort?
This forum has a long history of costing me money, and this thread is no exception!
I've got almost enough saved in my rat hole to purchase a M442. As much as I like my G43 that I purchased as a slimmer, smaller response to its larger cousins, I've been going back to the days I previously had a 442 and remember how convenient it was in a pocket holster for certain situations and circumstances. This was a timely thread, and I appreciate the discussion.
ETA: I'm going to have to do some more research on carrying spare ammo. I previously carried an HKS speedloader but am going to give the strips a serious look.
PattonWasRight
04-19-17, 13:46
Yeah, snubbies are so dang loveable. I'll carry my 642 on occasion in a versa carry ... such a light set up. Great backup gun since it can't go out of battery like a semi. Still, have to be aware someone gripping the cylinder will stop the gun from firing.
Even if someone doesn't intend on carrying a revolver, shooting the heavy double action will make anyone a better shooter.
My 642 is the Crimson grip model, so having the instant feedback of the laser movement while you pull the trigger is great training.
Have a few snubs that get carried.
My favorite is probably an old mod. 12-2 S&W that I cut up a bit ("K", alloy frame):
Ground serrations off and polished trigger, double action trigger job (double action only) and bobbed hammer.
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/mod%2012/011.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/mod%2012/010.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/mod%2012/006.jpg
Another fav is an old mod 10, similar work to above:
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/K%20Frame/IMG_0466_zpsblqdhycu.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/K%20Frame/46632619-2426-4761-b8a4-790870875bbc_zpspdlzcwx3.jpg
Occasionally carry a Colt "Agent":
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/Habdguns/handguns/m71023.jpg
http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b434/huntershooter/Habdguns/handguns/m71022.jpg
Thanks.
Thats not bad. I was hoping to find/make something that will hold the strips horizontally (Maybe with a buttoned flap/cover) since my strips are pretty long. They hold eight rounds but I normally load them with five. They are easier to grab/handle.
Edited to add: Found this...http://www.dillonprecision.com/ihl-speed-strip-wallet-black-38-357-8-round_8_22_25667.html
Take a close look at these Simply Rugged options: https://www.simplyrugged.com/ecommerce/Most-Versatile-Ammo-Pouch-Leather-Ammo-Pouch.cfm?item_id=170&parent=671
https://www.simplyrugged.com/ecommerce/Covered-Leather-Pistol-Ammo-Pouch-with-Cartridge-Loops.cfm?item_id=180&parent=671
This forum has a long history of costing me money, and this thread is no exception!
I've got almost enough saved in my rat hole to purchase a M442. As much as I like my G43 that I purchased as a slimmer, smaller response to its larger cousins, I've been going back to the days I previously had a 442 and remember how convenient it was in a pocket holster for certain situations and circumstances. This was a timely thread, and I appreciate the discussion.
ETA: I'm going to have to do some more research on carrying spare ammo. I previously carried an HKS speedloader but am going to give the strips a serious look.
I have two Tuff products nylon pouches (http://www.tuffproducts.com/7907-quickstrips-tactical-pouch/)for loaded strips one for my six shot 327 Federal LCR and the other for my S&W J frame, 351 PD, a seven shot 22 Magnum. Both guns are a little oddball so strips work best for me and these pouches ensure the strips are protected.
Great stuff. When I am not carrying my SL Variant loader I use the 2 space 2 method of carrying my rounds in speedstrips.
FYI ... I chose to use DeBethecourt's right handed reload method because I also carry semis. I keep the speedstrip or loader in the rear left pocket ( same place I keep my spare mag for semi carry) that way my natural training method is to use my weak hand to load both semis and revolvers so there is no muscle memory conflicts.
PattonWasRight
06-26-17, 15:56
Great stuff. When I am not carrying my SL Variant loader I use the 2 space 2 method of carrying my rounds in speedstrips.. Always up for a revolver thread! What's the 2 space method?
Always up for a revolver thread! What's the 2 space method?
Like this:
https://s15.postimg.org/tp13upzbv/IMG_5669.jpg
PattonWasRight
06-26-17, 16:07
Like this:
https://s15.postimg.org/tp13upzbv/IMG_5669.jpg K, I can see the advantage for speed in that config. It's down one round for a snubby's capacity, but a quicker reload can def trump that 'cause if you need to reload a snub, you need to do it fast
The 2-2 method is quite popular and I see the attraction of it, but I just can't bring myself to intentionally short myself of ammo...Just my odd semi-literate opinion.
I carry my speed strips with a full 7 for the 386 NG. My usual carry config is one 7rd HKS speed loader in a Safariland spring metal carrier and two Tuff Products 7rd speed strips in a Simply Rugged folding speed strip carrier, for a total of 28 rds of .38Spl +P+ 110gr JHPs on person. Carry method for the NG is AIWB in a simple Bianchi leather iwb holster or in a Wild Bill's Concealment leather Speed Scabbard.
If I'm carrying the Ruger Wiley Clapp, it'll be two 6rd HKS speed loaders in the Safariland spring metal carriers and two 6rd speed strips carried SAA, with the WC carried SAA.
I found that when reloading I was always dropping one of the rounds out of the strip. That method is the fastest way to get ammo back into the firearm reliably that I have found.
If I want more ammo I just carry a second strip or I could probably go out and buy an eight round and do a 2 x 2 x 2.
PattonWasRight
06-26-17, 18:51
I found that when reloading I was always dropping one of the rounds out of the strip. That method is the fastest way to get ammo back into the firearm reliably that I have found.
If I want more ammo I just carry a second strip or I could probably go out and buy an eight round and do a 2 x 2 x 2. I'm on board, thanks for posting this idea, I've never seen it before. I tried it tonite and yeah, it flows & is fast. I carry a snubby with some frequency, so this is a help!
I'm on board, thanks for posting this idea, I've never seen it before. I tried it tonite and yeah, it flows & is fast. I carry a snubby with some frequency, so this is a help!
Get some of the TUFF-Strip 8-shot speed strips. (they are cheap, come in packs of two) They are easier to grab and hold onto. And do the same thing, skip rounds where you want your fingers to go. I put five or six on an eight round strip. If I put more they just end up on the ground.
Get several and do all of your reloading from them to build memory.
I never did get an ammo carry pouch. I found if I'm going to thread something else onto my belt I'll just pack a bigger gun. (pistol) It's so easy just to drop the speed strip into a pocket. (Two strips in the same pocket doesn't work well, the rounds clink together and make noise)
I never did get an ammo carry pouch. I found if I'm going to thread something else onto my belt I'll just pack a bigger gun. (pistol) It's so easy just to drop the speed strip into a pocket. (Two strips in the same pocket doesn't work well, the rounds clink together and make noise)
Agree with this 100%. For me the snub is a pocket gun or ankle BUG only. To put anything on the belt means I can just carry an IWB 9MM.
Great stuff. When I am not carrying my SL Variant loader I use the 2 space 2 method of carrying my rounds in speedstrips.
FYI ... I chose to use DeBethecourt's right handed reload method because I also carry semis. I keep the speedstrip or loader in the rear left pocket ( same place I keep my spare mag for semi carry) that way my natural training method is to use my weak hand to load both semis and revolvers so there is no muscle memory conflicts.
My chosen method also, this way my off hand always goes to the same place for a reload. My version of DeBethecourt's technique uses my strong hand thumb to push the Smith cylinder release forward as the off hand curls around the pistol helping to push the cylinder out. I use SL variants too. My "snub" is a Smith 3" M13. I'm hoping Colt issues the new Cobra with a 3" tube.
Get some of the TUFF-Strip 8-shot speed strips. (they are cheap, come in packs of two) They are easier to grab and hold onto. And do the same thing, skip rounds where you want your fingers to go. I put five or six on an eight round strip. If I put more they just end up on the ground.
Get several and do all of your reloading from them to build memory.
I never did get an ammo carry pouch. I found if I'm going to thread something else onto my belt I'll just pack a bigger gun. (pistol) It's so easy just to drop the speed strip into a pocket. (Two strips in the same pocket doesn't work well, the rounds clink together and make noise)
To update, I did get some ammo pouches from Tuff Products. Handy, soft, light, easy to put on. (Wraps around your belt, doesn't need to be "threaded" on)
I use them for an ammo strip or for pocket pistol magazines.
As for the ammo strips, 7 rds on an 8 rd strip fits nicely in the pouch. If I drop one in a pocket it has 8 on it.
I changed how I grasp the strip when loading so I dont need to leave empty spaces for fingers. If I do drop one round during a reload oh well. But i usually don't.
It is faster to draw a second gun than reload a revolver. (4-6 seconds with a speed loader vs 2 or 3) But I can't bring myself to carry a gun and have NO extra ammo for it.
The 19 oz LCR is lighter and more comfortable to carry than even a single stack 9mm. (Unless your counting a Keltec PF9 and similar-grade guns)
Don't bother with ammo pouches, strips, or speedloaders.
In a short range firefight, you won't be able to reload. Has anybody ever successfully done so?
Five or six bangs and a click, and then you're dead. On the way out you might have time to remember this thread, and wish you had a hi-cap semi auto at hand.
ramairthree
11-25-19, 17:11
I have recently enjoyed playing at the range with a 4 inch barreled 8 shot .357 and similar sized moon clip 45ACP/45 Colt revolver.
Holster options have been limited, but I was able to get to a rhythm and speed and reload time better than I predicted. (For decades a SA colt 22LR or Ruger Blackhawk in .357 were hunting side arms and have a painfully slow reload)
I had considered a revolver to be a dated, ridiculous, very suboptimal side arm for protection.
Watching some revolver shooters at matches convinced me to at least gain some more experience.
A dozen or so trips to the range changed my mind from my pre conceived opinion.
They are a dated, viable, suboptimal sidearm for protection.
If you need to draw and fire and it’s over no problem.
If you need to draw and fire, and it’s not over and you need to shoot a lot more, and reload and shoot a lot more....
Anyways,
I enjoyed spending time getting better with them.
I just don’t know where I could fit a snub 38 that I could not fit a G26.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-25-19, 22:53
Five or six bangs and a click, and then you're dead. On the way out you might have time to remember this thread, and wish you had a hi-cap semi auto at hand.
Far more likely that the person dies not having any weapon at all because they didn’t have time or were too lazy to thread on a holster for their semi.
titsonritz
11-25-19, 23:11
Don't bother with ammo pouches, strips, or speedloaders.
In a short range firefight, you won't be able to reload. Has anybody ever successfully done so?
Five or six bangs and a click, and then you're dead. On the way out you might have time to remember this thread, and wish you had a hi-cap semi auto at hand.
Either that or there is 4 dead assholes with 18 rounds a piece in their Glocks on the ground next to them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw
Yes. Mr. Miculek. Three things to consider:
1. We aren't Jerry. He can shoot like Jose Altuve hits, or makes the double play. We don't have the talent.
2. Jerry is a pro. He does this 8 hours a day. We don't.
3. Say what you will; Jerry's still only on the one way shooting range.
In an urban encounter with the Jackboys, a revolver runs out of gas and you die.
Far more likely that the person dies not having any weapon at all because they didn’t have time or were too lazy to thread on a holster for their semi.
No, no he is right. If you carry a revolver then you are a dead man walking. The streets were littered with bodies of poorly armed citizens for 100+ years before semi-autos became the norm.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191128/66f114a40e2574b4b4ef3dcde2577d5c.plisthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191128/8b1a27dfc2ba7869111a5ea940c3e075.plisthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191128/65e00c01e4d5ddaa0c218292a0a529f3.plist
Here is my solution to the J frame question:
3 guns
S&W Performance Center 627 2.5” 8 Shot 357 Magnum
S&W 640 357 Magnum 5 Shot
605
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Sometimes other considerations preclude carry of certain pistols.
I carry IWB in order to effectively conceal a belt gun.
My issue Glock 23, as I have gotten older, presses on the nerves on my hip at the muzzle and causes pain since I have had my slipped disc and sciatica bout in ‘16.
Thanks to my newly elected Sheriff, I now have two revolvers on the off duty carry books. A 3” M64 NY-1 is carried IWB and my 442-2 goes in the pocket with one speed strip loaded with two round pairs along with a Galco 2x2x2 pouch at 1:00.
The K Smith, while a little heavier than my Glocks, does not aggravate my hip.
If I do my job, these guns will do theirs.
Don't bother with ammo pouches, strips, or speedloaders.
In a short range firefight, you won't be able to reload. Has anybody ever successfully done so?
Five or six bangs and a click, and then you're dead. On the way out you might have time to remember this thread, and wish you had a hi-cap semi auto at hand.
So Inspector Callahan, how many gunfights have you ever been in?
Statistically speaking you never will be in one, so carry whatever you want...
joedirt199
01-25-20, 13:39
Watch videos of random strangers getting robbed or encountered by armed subjects. If the only motive is property, most suspects run at the first sight of a gun or the first shot. Even multiple suspects.
If the motive is the victim for a specific purpose, more personal reason, then the suspect stays to get the job done.
Just don't go around pissing off the wrong kind of people. I carry a snubby when off duty as it is more convienent than an auto sometimes. Have shot it in some local IDPA matches to work on my skills under pressure. Best idea of where I need improvement.
So Inspector Callahan, how many gunfights have you ever been in?
Statistically speaking you never will be in one, so carry whatever you want...
This is why northeastern lawmen in high risk situations carried the New York reloads. They were limited to 6 shot revolvers, and they knew they couldn't stay alive long enough to reload, so they carried 2 or 3 guns.
If I had to carry a j frame, I'd have at least 2 of them. Life is precious.
This is why northeastern lawmen in high risk situations carried the New York reloads. They were limited to 6 shot revolvers, and they knew they couldn't stay alive long enough to reload, so they carried 2 or 3 guns.
If I had to carry a j frame, I'd have at least 2 of them. Life is precious.
LOL....
Ok, maybe you shouldn’t go out n public, maybe you shouldn’t be carrying a gun at all.
Reality and the law of large numbers says otherwise, but hey you do you... and I’ll do me...
Watch videos of random strangers getting robbed or encountered by armed subjects. If the only motive is property, most suspects run at the first sight of a gun or the first shot. Even multiple suspects.
If the motive is the victim for a specific purpose, more personal reason, then the suspect stays to get the job done.
Just don't go around pissing off the wrong kind of people. I carry a snubby when off duty as it is more convienent than an auto sometimes. Have shot it in some local IDPA matches to work on my skills under pressure. Best idea of where I need improvement.
What about the third scenario; Luby's cafeteria. Mass shooter comes in and opens up. You're carrying one j frame. Here's what you sound like:
Bang bang bang bang bang click click click . . . Fumble with speed loader. . . Thud.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-26-20, 03:44
What about the third scenario; Luby's cafeteria. Mass shooter comes in and opens up. You're carrying one j frame. Here's what you sound like:
Bang bang bang bang bang click click click . . . Fumble with speed loader. . . Thud.
Honestly, I mean this with no disrespect, but your opinions on firearms and tactics should be taken with a large grain of salt. You come from a place of very little real world experience, and your post history demonstrates that very matter of factly, no matter what you may claim. For our new forum members, I highly suggest they think about what Univibe is posting, read his post history, and seek quality training from a professional. This is simply a PSA for new members who may be impressionable.
Back to the topic at hand, I carry a J Frame reload on a 6 shot speed strip attached to the very cool and sensible RASC. I know it is a slow reload, and one I admittedly do not practice enough, if at all, but a reload is a reload. Why someone would preach not carrying one simply blows my mind.
Honestly, I mean this with no disrespect, but your opinions on firearms and tactics should be taken with a large grain of salt. You come from a place of very little real world experience, and your post history demonstrates that very matter of factly, no matter what you may claim. For our new forum members, I highly suggest they think about what Univibe is posting, read his post history, and seek quality training from a professional. This is simply a PSA for new members who may be impressionable.
Back to the topic at hand, I carry a J Frame reload on a 6 shot speed strip attached to the very cool and sensible RASC. I know it is a slow reload, and one I admittedly do not practice enough, if at all, but a reload is a reload. Why someone would preach not carrying one simply blows my mind.Yes it's hilarious.
What about the third scenario; Luby's cafeteria. Mass shooter comes in and opens up. You're carrying one j frame. Here's what you sound like:
Bang bang bang bang bang click click click . . . Fumble with speed loader. . . Thud.If you're going to use examples how about use ones where a gun, specifically that gun, was used. In Luby's no one had a gun so your point is baseless. I could just as easily argue that the first shot fired from the snob nose 38 hit him square between the eyes. And it would be equally correct
Yes it's hilarious.If you're going to use examples how about use ones where a gun, specifically that gun, was used. In Luby's no one had a gun so your point is baseless. I could just as easily argue that the first shot fired from the snob nose 38 hit him square between the eyes. And it would be equally correct
This^^^. UV is making the assumption that the guy with the revolver can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.
If you carry less gun / ammo than me you're a fool and will lose any lethal conflict.
If you carry more than me you must think you're John Rambo and you'll never need all that firepower.
And whether you carry 5 shots or 50 you're certain to miss anyone you shoot at. Even if you do get lucky and score a hit they wont stop because you dont carry the caliber and bullet I do so you still die.
(That's what I read all the time, anyway)
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-26-20, 21:11
I have tried Bettancourt's reload method and it just doesn't work for me. 1. I am used to switching hands. 2. Trying to use my support hand to align the speed loaders just isn't as fast. BUT I suspect if I had started with his method I might be able to make it work.
I will stay this, every other cylinder of ammo coming out of my J-frame comes out of a Safariland Speedloader. I ran 125 rounds through my 640 today and I just don't see why one would skip the chance to practice reloads. I have a good buddy who never practices reloads and I never understand why. Hell, for one thing they are fun!
Some of the more paranoid comments here remind me of this scene from Heat https://youtu.be/575xM6Uljw4
While admittedly not perfect, I prefer the 2-2 method with speed strips. 2 rounds, space, then 2 more with a space near the grab tab. The extra space helps me with grabbing/leverage when stripping rounds. Not the be all end all, but pretty workable in my world. 2-3 strips set up like this is pretty damn convenient in most clothing.
I’d still wager a bet that if there was a way to actually tabulate it, the j-frame is still one of, if not the most “actually “ carried CCW piece out there. But, getting folks to admit it, especially in today’s internet folk lore “your gonna lose if” world would probably be a bit of a challenge.
While admittedly not perfect, I prefer the 2-2 method with speed strips. 2 rounds, space, then 2 more with a space near the grab tab. The extra space helps me with grabbing/leverage when stripping rounds. Not the be all end all, but pretty workable in my world. 2-3 strips set up like this is pretty damn convenient in most clothing.
I’d still wager a bet that if there was a way to actually tabulate it, the j-frame is still one of, if not the most “actually “ carried CCW piece out there. But, getting folks to admit it, especially in today’s internet folk lore “your gonna lose if” world would probably be a bit of a challenge.I think today it's largely been replaced by micro 380 semi autos. Lighter, thinner, smaller, more ammo and a reload is just as easily concealable
I’d still wager a bet that if there was a way to actually tabulate it, the j-frame is still one of, if not the most “actually “ carried CCW piece out there.
I think today it's largely been replaced by micro 380 semi autos. Lighter, thinner, smaller, more ammo and a reload is just as easily concealable
Of actual carriers (not just owners), I'd give the edge to subcompact/micro autos in 9 and 380. Still, a strong presence by revolvers. Revolver carriers are over 40.
I think today it's largely been replaced by micro 380 semi autos. Lighter, thinner, smaller, more ammo and a reload is just as easily concealable
And you may very well be correct.
Over the years though, I have run into enough folks, and not just the boomer funds that everyone loves to hate, carrying these small frame revolvers. And in some cases it’s their only handgun. Most of the reasoning is based on simplicity. Couple that with the fact that these guns aren’t exactly sitting on shelves and still being produced by multiple manufacturers is enough to cause wonder. At least to me anyway.
Regardless, just an interesting thought exercise at best, but highly irrelevant in the grand scope.
Y'all laugh all you want, but read the after action report on the FBI Miami shootout. One man with a mini 14 and some 30 round magazines took on 8 agents. Most of the agents were armed with revolvers. Several were shot when they ran out of ammo and were trying to reload.
Facing a determined criminal or mass shooter, you'll be in the same boat. If your superior shooting skills don't get the job done in 5 or 6 rounds, and they very well might not, you will be killed trying to reload, too.
Five bangs, some clicks and your number is up. That's the reality, rather than some carefully crafted scenario in which you deftly whack one or more mass shooters with a j frame.
Y'all laugh all you want, but read the after action report on the FBI Miami shootout. One man with a mini 14 and some 30 round magazines took on 8 agents. Most of the agents were armed with revolvers. Several were shot when they ran out of ammo and were trying to reload.
Facing a determined criminal or mass shooter, you'll be in the same boat. If your superior shooting skills don't get the job done in 5 or 6 rounds, and they very well might not, you will be killed trying to reload, too.
Five bangs, some clicks and your number is up. That's the reality, rather than some carefully crafted scenario in which you deftly whack one or more mass shooters with a j frame.
There was also 3 agents there with a semi auto 9mm
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LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-30-20, 02:50
Y'all laugh all you want, but read the after action report on the FBI Miami shootout. One man with a mini 14 and some 30 round magazines took on 8 agents. Most of the agents were armed with revolvers. Several were shot when they ran out of ammo and were trying to reload.
Facing a determined criminal or mass shooter, you'll be in the same boat. If your superior shooting skills don't get the job done in 5 or 6 rounds, and they very well might not, you will be killed trying to reload, too.
Five bangs, some clicks and your number is up. That's the reality, rather than some carefully crafted scenario in which you deftly whack one or more mass shooters with a j frame.
Univibe,
When you post things like this, are you trying to positively contribute to this forum? I find it hard to believe that you are doing anything but deliberately being obtuse.
Let's break this gem of a post down...
This wasn't a chance encounter of a citizen armed with a J Frame against a badguy on the streets. This was a poorly executed attempt at a high risk stop on Platt and Matix. Both of whom were highly trained Vietnam veterans, armed to the absolute teeth, and had already committed murders and armed robberies. This was a meeting of old school/outdated gear and tactics against two very bad men. 1986 Miami, 1997 N. Hollywood, 1999 Columbine, etc are all examples of this and how law enforcement has had to update gear and tactics to stay relevant against an ever evolving threat. But okay, I'll bite...
One man with a mini 14 and some 30 round magazines took on 8 agents.
Well, Platt did have a Mini 14, the only rifle in the fight, and fired at least 42 very effective rounds (Ever had anyone pin you down with accurate and high volume rifle fire Univibe? Ever tried to return fire with your semi-auto pistol in that circumstance?). He also had two revolvers which he fired. Matix had a 12g pump, which he also fired before getting taken out of the fight. One of the biggest weapons these guys had in the fight was their Monte Carlo, which they used effectively to completely throw off the FBI agents. By ramming the agents, they removed numerous guns from the fight, but you fail to mention this.
Most of the agents were armed with revolvers.
FBI Guns in the fight:
3x 9mm
5x 357/38
1x 870
Interesting to note, which you failed to mention, Agent Risner expended a full magazine of 9mm from his Model 459 before drawing a BUG Model 60 and firing a round.
Facing a determined criminal or mass shooter, you'll be in the same boat.
So here's the crux, what responsible citizen is conducting poorly coordinated high risk vehicle stops with a revolver? That's right Mr Univibe, no one is, so your point here is way off mark. There are obvious lessons for anyone who carries a gun, especially law enforcement officers, from the 86 shootout, but your point that this somehow translates to throwing a J Frame into a pocket and running to the grocery store is somehow the same as this situation is ridiculous.
That's the reality
Reality. It's interesting that you use that word, because as Inigo Montoya might say, "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means". Here's the Webster's definition: the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
Things as they actually exist, not a notional idea of them. The things you have posted are some strange fantasy, nay, notional idea of the world, and are not based in the state of things as they actually exist.
So now I need to ask, can you quantify your statements based off of YOUR real world experience? Your years as an operator, police officer, or unlucky concealed carrier in the mean streets? The armed confrontations you've been in, the gunfights you've exchanged ammo in, the high risk stops you've done on know armed felons, etc? Because here's the reality, many of us on this forum have real world experience in this, and see right through your posts.
Several were shot when they ran out of ammo and were trying to reload.
You're right, many were. Many lost their handguns in the initial ramming too. So if your point is that a revolver is a terrible primary duty sidearm for confronting modern badguys, then you are damn right. I carry a Glock 34 w/RMR and X300U, 3x +2 magazines, a J Frame, and a Colt 6933 in my rack, and even all of that may not be enough loadout for a gunfight with today's Platt and Matix.
But that's not your point is it? The point you are making is that a J frame is going to get you killed in a gunfight. And that, again, has absolutely no basis in reality.
So for those who carry a J Frame because they wouldn't carry a gun otherwise, I say thank you for being a responsible armed citizen. Please carry a reload and practice doing it under time. Practice 25yd shots, and drawing your J Frame. If the day comes where you, God forbid, need it, you'll be happy you took the time to learn how to use your snubnose. If someone tries to shame you into carrying a bigger semi-auto, which in turn causes you to leave it at home more often than not, rethink their message and their experiences. Obviously, a Glock 19, light, and reload are optimal for many situations, but the REALITY is we carry what we carry when we can carry it. If I have a Glock 19 on me, and Univibe is asking me to roll Platt and Matix, I'm gonna pass before I can get alot of friends with an MRAP and some big bore guns.
Maybe any kind of pistol wasn't appropriate for Platt and Matix. Maybe any kind of pistol wasn't appropriate for Phillips and Mătăsăreanu. Maybe using shootouts like this to deter people from carrying is silly.
But hey, what do I know?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib66-6e1otg
LowSpeed already covered most of it but I'll just add that.
One agent with a semi auto lost his glasses and possibly wasn't able to see clearly enough to be effective although landed at least 2 hits.
One agent was killed trying to get his semi auto un-jammed.
One agent ran out of ammo in his semi auto and used a revolver.
Grogan- semi auto 9mm. Fired 9 rounds. Killed by 223 to the chest
Dove- semi auto 9mm. Fired over 20 rounds. Killed by 223 headshot
Risner- semi auto 9mm. Fired 14 rounds + 1 38spl from a S&W model 60 J frame. Lived.
One agent did not fire any shots because he lost his gun in the initial vehicle impact.
One bad guy was out almost immediately when he was hit in the head and neck from a revolver. The other was hit pretty good. The 9mm bullet fired from a semi auto penetrated his upper arm, chest, collapsing a lung and stopping an inch from his heart. but continued to fight. Autopsy showed his chest cavity filled with 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting massive damage to the main blood vessels in the lung. One of his MANY wounds. He was shot TWO more times from a 9mm semi auto, climbing over a the hood of a car.
The gun fight ended when an agent fired six shots from his revolver. Missing first 2 shots. 3rd hitting Matrix in the face. 4th and 5th also hitting Matrix in the face and severing the spinal cord. 6th round hitting Platt in the chest.
Gun fight lasted under 5 min with about 145 rounds fired. There was at least 43 rounds of 9mm fired from semi autos in under 5 minutes from 3 separate people from 3 different positions.
Two agents killed and 5 wounded mainly by ONE very aggressive and very determined perpetrator who was shot TWELVE TIMES. Platt served as an Army Ranger in Vietnam.
And if you're using this as your bases for carrying a semi auto vs a revolver then you should also consider having at least 10 armed friends with you at all times. And another thing. If you're using extreme cases like this the what are you going to do with your 9mm when two heavily armed guys with full auto rifles, wearing 3 layers of body armor roll up on you?
joedirt199
01-30-20, 07:05
And that example is from 1986 when most LEO were still carrying revolver or transitioning to semi autos. I will fill you guys in on a class we had with an FBI profiler/statistician who came to our department to teach us about the criminal mindset. Pretty interesting stuff but again all his examples were very dated and it seems the FBI does not put alot of stock in that division to keep it current. Need my laptop and not a phone to type it all up.
There was also 3 agents there with a semi auto 9mm
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And IIRC....(Edit: I recalled incorrectly!)
Just my WAG, but assuming you do everything else as best you can, a revolver can solve 85% of citizen-minding-their-buisness lethal force encounters.
A semi-auto double-stack will probably cover 10% more. The last 5% are the times you really needed a professional security team with you. And / or a rifle already in your hands.
I try not carry a revolver as primary / only.
I was doing pretty good but last night got a call to help somebody out quickly due to an injury.
Guess what happens? Yup. LCR dropped in pocket, (pretty dirty and loaded w/.357 Golden Saber) 5-star speed loader goes in support side sweatshirt pocket. (W/158 gr LRN from previous day shooting)
Personally, I don’t find reading a report of an incident where two members of L/E being murdered funny... but from Uni-Vibe’s synopsis, I’d suggest he brush up on it as a lot of his statements are blatantly incorrect. Only one agent was shot reloading his revolver. This is coming from someone who did more research on that incident than just browsing a Wikipedia article.
I do wonder why he has such a huge concern on what other people carry. A J-frame doesn’t mean a killer is going to get the drop on you because you only have 5 shots before reload. I’d say situational awareness is going to get you further than more rounds in the gun. More of a chance of you being shot with your eyes on your phone than because you pack a S&W over a Glock.
Colder weather... I carry a Glock 30S. Once it gets back into the 40s, and lighter clothes... the J-frame comes back out (along with three moonclips in my pocket). Feel just as confident with it as the Glock... or my issued H&K P2000. If I am off duty and walk on something going down... I’ll take that revolver into it without hesitation. Only difference would be if I’m by in my truck when I find out what’s up... and in that situation, Level III body armor and an AR pistol are coming along with the J-frame.
It's the Blacksmith, not the hammer. If a person has their head screwed on straight, they will prevail. Large magazine capacity is not a substitute for training and mindset. More rounds are better to have on hand, there is no question about it, but that does not predict who will win the conflict.
A J Frame in the hands of a well trained and determined individual is a viable self defense weapon when dealing with social issues in CONUS.
Personally, I don’t find reading a report of an incident where two members of L/E being murdered funny... but from Uni-Vibe’s synopsis, I’d suggest he brush up on it as a lot of his statements are blatantly incorrect. Only one agent was shot reloading his revolver. This is coming from someone who did more research on that incident than just browsing a Wikipedia article.
I do wonder why he has such a huge concern on what other people carry. A J-frame doesn’t mean a killer is going to get the drop on you because you only have 5 shots before reload. I’d say situational awareness is going to get you further than more rounds in the gun. More of a chance of you being shot with your eyes on your phone than because you pack a S&W over a Glock.
Colder weather... I carry a Glock 30S. Once it gets back into the 40s, and lighter clothes... the J-frame comes back out (along with three moonclips in my pocket). Feel just as confident with it as the Glock... or my issued H&K P2000. If I am off duty and walk on something going down... I’ll take that revolver into it without hesitation. Only difference would be if I’m by in my truck when I find out what’s up... and in that situation, Level III body armor and an AR pistol are coming along with the J-frame.
Not trying to derail the thread but I listened to a podcast with the agent who killed Pratt and mantix. It’s called “FBI Retired case file review”, and it’s episodes 118-119. Pretty interesting.
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His book on the subject...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0999510304/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_o7.mEbFKK17EW
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A J Frame in the hands of a well trained and determined individual is a viable self defense weapon when dealing with social issues in CONUS.
Bernhard Goetz (NYC subway vigilante) is good example. 5 guys, 5 shots, 1 miss in a blink of an eye. And that would be more of a typical "social issue" than the FBI shootout or the N. Hollywood shootout
Bernhard Goetz (NYC subway vigilante) is good example. 5 guys, 5 shots, 1 miss in a blink of an eye. And that would be more of a typical "social issue" than the FBI shootout or the N. Hollywood shootout
The 5 didn't have weapons. An armed gang or active shooter situation more nearly resembles Miami or North Hollywood than unarmed thugs in the Goetz case. And even Goetz testified that he'd have shot more rounds if the gun hadn't run out.
Carry what you will. I just think more bullets is better.
The 5 didn't have weapons. An armed gang or active shooter situation more nearly resembles Miami or North Hollywood than unarmed thugs in the Goetz case. And even Goetz testified that he'd have shot more rounds if the gun hadn't run out.
Carry what you will. I just think more bullets is better.
An armed gang?
More bullets is never bad but you have a better chance of going to space than being involved in a Miami or N. Hollywood style shootout. And IF you are involved in that you don't need a gun, you need a rifle and backup..... especially N. Hollywood since those two were using full auto and armor
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-01-20, 10:35
Carry what you will. I just think more bullets is better.
Thank you for posting something reasonable in this thread.
The 5 didn't have weapons. An armed gang or active shooter situation more nearly resembles Miami or North Hollywood than unarmed thugs in the Goetz case. And even Goetz testified that he'd have shot more rounds if the gun hadn't run out.
Carry what you will. I just think more bullets is better.
Those incidents are so rare you probably have better odds of winning the lottery than finding yourself caught in the crossfire of a North Hollywood shootout.
Quick question, why are you so obsessed with worrying about what everyone else carries?
Does it actually affect you what others carry?
Thank you for posting something reasonable in this thread.
Agreed.
SeriousStudent
02-02-20, 00:11
The 5 didn't have weapons. An armed gang or active shooter situation more nearly resembles Miami or North Hollywood than unarmed thugs in the Goetz case. And even Goetz testified that he'd have shot more rounds if the gun hadn't run out.
Carry what you will. I just think more bullets is better.
You are incorrect
Actually, they did have weapons. A sharpened screwdriver IS a weapon, and I have personally treated several dozen people that have been stabbed with one. I have also pronounced dead about a dozen or so people that were killed with a screwdriver.
I can do a wheelbarrow load of damage to a human in a very short period of time with a screwdriver. Since I'm not John Wick, and I don't play him in the movies, I like a screwdriver a lot better than a pencil.
Geotz was jailed on weapons violations, not for shooting "unarmed" people. They tried to rob him with weapons - he therefore shot them. Goetz was tried for murder, but convicted of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree – carrying a loaded, unlicensed weapon in a public place. He did a year in jail.
Ask the next police officer you meet, just how happy he will be if you move towards him rapidly with a screwdriver in your hand. I'll bet it will be something along the lines of "Not very". They'll likely throw in some adjectives as well.
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