View Full Version : New Rifle, First Range Trip but Only 25 Yards
FourT6and2
11-07-14, 23:30
I can't wait to get out and shoot this thing. But the only range I can get to at the moment is a 25-yard pistol range. Is it going to be overkill to throw a few boxes of ammo down range at an indoor pistol range?
Iron sights probably aren't zeroed. Should I wait until I can get out to a longer range and zero with a rest at 50 or 100 yards. Or might as well get some practice starting off-hand at 25?
Check the Zero targets stickied at the top of the page. They have 25 yd targets, which are printed for a 50 yd zero.
It's a new gun, shoot it and enjoy it.
FourT6and2
11-08-14, 03:28
Check the Zero targets stickied at the top of the page. They have 25 yd targets, which are printed for a 50 yd zero.
It's a new gun, shoot it and enjoy it.
Wouldn't it matter that those targets are in meters, not yards though? I'll be on a 25 yard pistol range. I guess it's a starting place, though. But how will I know how many clicks to adjust the sights?
Sights adjust in .25 MOA increments.
Targets are set up for 25 meters.
Shooting range is 25 yards.
I don't think that'll work out too well for me.
I wouldn't worry about it too much and would just run with what I had access to. Zero 1" low at 25 yards and when you get the chance, dial it in at 50 or 100 meters.
4 clicks at 25 yards will still move your point of impact roughly a quarter inch if you have 1/4 MOA turrets. Don't overthink it and let the groups on paper tell you what you need to know.
Plus, since it is a new rifle you are going to be checking other things as well such as: function, brass pattern, unusual wear, etc. Twenty five yards is just fine for such analysis.
FourT6and2
11-08-14, 09:55
Cool cool coool, thanks guys!
I'll take a 25yd range over not shooting at all.
FourT6and2
11-08-14, 10:18
Oh whoops, my sights are 1/2 MOA, not 1/4. Troy folding Battle Sights.
All shooting is good for you and the rifle. Sighting in is a progressive act anyway, so begin the process and have fun.
snakedoctor
11-08-14, 10:51
I recently tried a 50yd zero shot at 10yds. You're POI should be 1.9" below your POA. If you can get a tight group at 10yds you'll be dead on at 50 and 200.
I recently tried a 50yd zero shot at 10yds. You're POI should be 1.9" below your POA. If you can get a tight group at 10yds you'll be dead on at 50 and 200.
I would recommend to confirm your zero at a longer range when given the chance. If you're going for the 50/200 zero, I would strongly recommend fine tuning your zero if/when you get the chance to shoot 200. Those small compromises we make zeroing at close ranges really start to show themselves downrange at 150+.
Failure2Stop
11-08-14, 11:48
I recently tried a 50yd zero shot at 10yds. You're POI should be 1.9" below your POA. If you can get a tight group at 10yds you'll be dead on at 50 and 200.
This is not good advice.
You are overthinking things in my opinion. Lots of AR shooting is done inside of 75' and there is nothing wrong with that. Your iron sights are not ultra precise instruments and you can get plenty of good practice familiarizing yourself with your new gun including not just sight-in, but handling and function as well.
The closer the range, the tighter you should expect your groups to be, so it is possible to challenge yourself at almost any distance. Go shoot the thing!
If your sights have a 1/2 MOA adjustment, use these targets at 25 yards (the difference between yards and meters is not of concern):
http://home.comcast.net/~j_colt123/Improved%20AR15%20Optic%20Target%2050Ma.pdf
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/12594760254_a829e8e54d_o.jpg
What you are doing here is aiming center mass on the silhouette and adjusting you bullet impacts to fall into the hash-marked circle. This will give you a rough 50/200 yard zero.
I would also second verifying zero at the correct range when you have the opportunity. The zero targets I created are based off of generalized ammo and sight height combinations. They will get you very close, but different setups and ammo can yield different POIs at the desired zero range.
Links to my zero targets are in my signature line.
My advice, FWIW: Don't poo-poo "only" a 25 yard range. Work on putting rounds through the same hole, with your irons, from that distance, first from the bench to make sure your sights are zeroed and dead on, then do it from the offhand position. It will pay off for you as you get out beyond 25 yards.
I'll use the 25 yard slot if that is all that is open. I've been known to shoot .308 at it before - who cares, its still fun! Some shooting is better than no shooting, especially if it is a new rifle!
snakedoctor
11-08-14, 21:03
This is not good advice.
Zeroed and confirmed. What makes this bad advise?
It's bad advice because it's easy to shoot though the same bullet hole at 10 yards even when your fundamentals suck, so you can deceive yourself into thinking your shooting and zero is pretty solid. Stretch that zero out to 200/300 yards and reality sets in real fast. Whenever possible you'll want to confirm your zero at the distance you are actually zeroing for.
snakedoctor
11-08-14, 21:30
http://youtu.be/P-FUsH8jt6E
I guess Todd Hodnett and Frank have it all wrong
FourT6and2
11-08-14, 22:28
Links to my zero targets are in my signature line.
I believe I wound up using your targets. Not the one you posted here. But one from another thread (if it was you). So thanks!
FourT6and2
11-08-14, 22:43
Long day at the range! The 25-yard range I was planning on going to makes you buy their "special" ammunition. I buy ammo in bulk so I can avoid paying inflated prices at the range. So I wound up making the 2-hour hike out to an outdoor range that goes out to 50/100 yards and shot my very first AR (first rifle period, for that matter) at the 50-yard line.
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/0/2/range_by_haftelm-d85rqqu.jpg
Here's the rifle: Noveske 16" Gen III.
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/312/4/0/noveske_by_haftelm-d85rqqq.jpg
Ammo was Federal/Lake City XM193, 55gr.
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/312/6/3/mags_by_haftelm-d85rqqn.jpg
Without worrying about trying to zero the iron sights, I decided to just see what would happen. Here's my very first 10 rounds ever.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/9/3/group_1_by_haftelm-d85rqr3.jpg
I then put up one of the 50-yard zero targets. Looks like a similar group.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/d/a/group_2_by_haftelm-d85rqqz.jpg
Adjusted the sights a little bit. I could adjust windage on the rear sight, no problem. But the front sight proved very difficult to adjust. I couldn't get a bullet tip or anything down into it to turn it. So I couldn't adjust elevation. I wound up having to just do "hold unders" all day. I will have to buy one of those tools to adjust the front elevation.
Groups:
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/3/6/group_1_2_3_by_haftelm-d85rqqy.jpg
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/312/9/a/group_4_5_by_haftelm-d85rqqc.jpg
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/9/b/group_6_7_by_haftelm-d85rqq8.jpg
Last group of the day. I think I was getting tired at this point. Group opened up a lot.
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/e/0/last_group_by_haftelm-d85rqqh.jpg
Here's what the cardboard looked like by the end of the day. I think I shot about 150-200 rounds.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/312/d/b/target_back_by_haftelm-d85rqqk.jpg
So... I don't know how this is supposed to look. I tried shooting with the stock at different positions to see what worked and what didn't. I think I liked it either at the 2nd to last notch or one in from there. Nose definitely wasn't anywhere near the charging handle. And the angle of the pistol grip is very painful on my wrist (I was shooting at a bench, the range doesn't allow standing or prone). No bags or anything. I propped up the rifle on some wood blocks that were covered in carpet that the range had. So how's it look? Good? Bad? Any way to tell what I can do to improve by just looking at the groups, like you can with a handgun?
Honestly, I couldn't even see the target really. Just had to position the sights where I thought was maybe possibly kinda sorta the bullseye. But I had a lot of fun!
25yds=22.86m Close enough to check function of rifle, ejection pattern, lock-back of mags, and to enjoy new rifle. Not trying to get in on zero debate, but what is rifle going to be used for? Self/home defense or precision and what kind of ammo, with what length/twist of barrel will also play into short-to-long range zero. As mentioned stickies https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?65679-AR-15-Zeros-and-Trajectories
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?107572-Zen-of-the-100-Meter-Zero
Pick best setup for your rifle/ammo/purpose..... And take a carbine class. Oh Ya and slap a light on that bad boy if it's for defense.
ETA: LOL, you posted while I was typing
You can get a rough zero at 25 yards. I look for a Point of Impact of 1" below the Point of Aim at 25 yards. That will get you in the general neighborhood when you are able to shoot at greater distances, but it is not a guarantee you will be on the money when you shoot at 50 & 100 yards.
Even if you zero at 50 yards, it is a rough zero and you will need to verify your zero at 100 yards and 200 yards. If you change ammunition you want to check zero again.
A bench is a good way to check the accuracy potential of a firearm/ammunition combination, but I would not expend a lot of rounds off the bench once zeroed. There is no substitute for shooting from the prone, sitting and standing positions. I have seen people zero their carbine on the bench and the POI was different once they moved to the prone or sitting position.
Your first target looks pretty good. Where were you holding the top of the front sight when you shot?
I think M193 shoots better than some people think. It shoots better out of some carbines than others. Here is an example of a 5 shot carbine iron sight zero confirmation at 56 yards with M193 from the prone position.
10mmSpringfield
11-08-14, 22:49
I've used 25 yards to get 50 and 100 yard zeros.
While it isn't a substitute for zeroing them at a 50-100 yards, you'll be pretty damn close and definitely on the paper.
Not bad shooting for first outing with a rifle.
FourT6and2
11-08-14, 23:45
A bench is a good way to check the accuracy potential of a firearm/ammunition combination, but I would not expend a lot of rounds off the bench once zeroed. There is no substitute for shooting from the prone, sitting and standing positions. I have seen people zero their carbine on the bench and the POI was different once they moved to the prone or sitting position.
The ranges I have access to do NOT allow you to shoot standing or prone. Only from a bench. It sucks. But I have nowhere else to shoot. I'd much rather shoot metal plates and gongs and x-mas trees and be able to move around. But... that doesn't exist here.
Your first target looks pretty good. Where were you holding the top of the front sight when you shot?
Really? I think some of the other targets look a lot better... Groups 6 and 7 are much tighter, no? But for group 1 (the very first target I posted), I had the bullseye right on the tip of the front sight (6:00 hold).
I think M193 shoots better than some people think. It shoots better out of some carbines than others. Here is an example of a 5 shot carbine iron sight zero confirmation at 56 yards with M193 from the prone position.
How accurate can you really be with iron sights anyway? Even at 50 yards, there was no way for me to see where my POA was beyond "it's touching the general center of the paper somewhere." Blink your eyes and the POI shifts over two inches.
Not bad shooting for first outing with a rifle.
It was fun! I have no idea what I'm doing.
Your accuracy potential with iron sights is only limited by your ability to be consistent. Never feel like you're being limited by your sights. You're actually shooting very well for someone who's never owned an AR before, so keep working on your fundamentals and you'll continue to see improvement.
As others have said, I'd recommend getting into a basic carbine class from a reputable instructor before you start developing bad habits. You can save yourself a lot of ass pain now learning how to do it right the first time.
Nice rifle, by the way.
First time with a rifle period? No coach correcting technique? I'd say you are doing great. Very consistent. Especially for untrained with irons.
Op,
You work with what they will let you do on the range. If I read correctly that you were using 6 o'clock hold, the POI of the M193 shot on Target 1 appears to be 8"-9" higher than your POA. You could easily rotate the front sight up 1 full turn to move toward a zero. The comment I made about it being a good group relates to being the first group you shot without warming up.
To find a good starting point for your best personal buttstock position take your unloaded carbine, bend your strong side arm 90 degrees, rest the buttstock against the lower part of your bicep and see if you can comfortably reach the grip and trigger. If you have to stretch to reach the grip and trigger, the stock is adjusted too long. If you feel cramped, the stock is adjusted too short. This will give you a good starting point.
Without any guidance or training, I think you did well for your first outing.
FourT6and2
11-09-14, 10:25
Your accuracy potential with iron sights is only limited by your ability to be consistent. Never feel like you're being limited by your sights. You're actually shooting very well for someone who's never owned an AR before, so keep working on your fundamentals and you'll continue to see improvement.
As others have said, I'd recommend getting into a basic carbine class from a reputable instructor before you start developing bad habits. You can save yourself a lot of ass pain now learning how to do it right the first time.
Nice rifle, by the way.
I will definitely seek out a class of some sort. People keep recommended Appleseed. But they suggest you bring a lot of gear and supplies I don't have. If there's a basic carbine marksmanship course around here, I'll do it.
First time with a rifle period? No coach correcting technique? I'd say you are doing great. Very consistent. Especially for untrained with irons.
Yeah, I just sort of inferred what I should be doing based on what I've read online and the fundamental principles from shooting pistol. Principles are principle. They should hold true regardless of what gun you're shooting. But I'm sure there are other things I need to pay attention to that I don't even know exist. Hopefully I can take a class.
Op,
You work with what they will let you do on the range. If I read correctly that you were using 6 o'clock hold, the POI of the M193 shot on Target 1 appears to be 8"-9" higher than your POA. You could easily rotate the front sight up 1 full turn to move toward a zero. The comment I made about it being a good group relates to being the first group you shot without warming up.
Ahh, I understand. Yeah, I tried adjusting the front sight but couldn't get anything down in there to do it. I will get one of those castle sight tools for like $5 and see if that is easier. From the sight-in target, I needed to make about 14-16 "clicks" of adjustment, since each one is 1/2 MOA. I think that's what it's saying. But I just tried to aim low for the rest of the day.
To find a good starting point for your best personal buttstock position take your unloaded carbine, bend your strong side arm 90 degrees, rest the buttstock against the lower part of your bicep and see if you can comfortably reach the grip and trigger. If you have to stretch to reach the grip and trigger, the stock is adjusted too long. If you feel cramped, the stock is adjusted too short. This will give you a good starting point.
Sweet, thanks! I will try this.
FourT6and2
11-09-14, 11:10
I tried the 90-degree bent arm thing to see where the stock falls. With the stock extended all the way out, I still have to bend my wrist sharply to grab the pistol grip. If I let my wrist fall naturally my palm is almost past the grip.
I tried the 90-degree bent arm thing to see where the stock falls. With the stock extended all the way out, I still have to bend my wrist sharply to grab the pistol grip. If I let my wrist fall naturally my palm is almost past the grip.
That is a starting point. When you shoulder the carbine with your head erect, you will know if the stock is adjusted to suit you. I shoot with the stock a little more inboard toward my head, so I don't have a tendency to cant the rifle. Other people I shoot with sometimes shoot with the buttstock placed farther out toward the shoulder. Raise and lower your firing arm elbow until you find your grip & trigger finger placement the most comfortable with the least amount of sight wobble.
Good luck and good shooting!
Failure2Stop
11-09-14, 14:38
Zeroed and confirmed. What makes this bad advise?
Because too many variables are present at only 10 yards, and requires the user to place the center of the group on a very specific point, with a degree of measurement accuracy that is not readily achieved when one could simply zero at the actual distance. Another significant factor is how one resolves the point of aim at distance. How a dot at 10 yards resolves is different than how it resolves to the user at distances past 50 yards.
Further, it generally forces the shooter to put the target very close to the ground when zeroing with a magazine monopod technique, something that a lot of range/targetry won't support.
There is also the issue of different ammunition and barrel lengths along with different offset distances between the bore and line of sight. Each of these is a factor, and one can avoid all of the issues by simply zeroing at the actual distance you are trying to replicate.
There is nothing that replaces shooting at actual distance for data.
Ballistic calculators can be close, but they are't perfect.
I make these statements from over 15 years of training, ,with several thousand students. I have participated, conducted, instructed, and given instruction on zeroing (at 25 meters, 36 yards, 50 yards and meters, 100 yards and meters, 200 yards, and 300 yards and meters), and I can wholly state that the long-range accuracy of one's zero is most consistently correct if one zeroes at 100 yards or further. This does not mean that one must have POI/POA at 100 yards/meters (for example, I like 2" high at 100 yards/meters for irons), simply that nailing down the actual zero at 100 yards/meters gives the user the highest probability of success.
I am not a fan of 25 yard "zeroing", as it has all of the issues I outlined, other than as a method of "getting on paper" for "real" zeroing at 50 or 100, and I see 10 yard zeroing as less preferable than the 25. If all you have is 10 or 25 yards, I get it, and it's better to do something than nothing, but I sincerely doubt that either Mr. Proctor or Mr. Hodnett would be happy with only a 10 yard zero with no correction at distance.
Eurodriver
11-09-14, 14:47
Because too many variables are present at only 10 yards, and requires the user to place the center of the group on a very specific point, with a degree of measurement accuracy that is not readily achieved when one could simply zero at the actual distance. Another significant factor is how one resolves the point of aim at distance. How a dot at 10 yards resolves is different than how it resolves to the user at distances past 50 yards.
Further, it generally forces the shooter to put the target very close to the ground when zeroing with a magazine monopod technique, something that a lot of range/targetry won't support.
There is also the issue of different ammunition and barrel lengths along with different offset distances between the bore and line of sight. Each of these is a factor, and one can avoid all of the issues by simply zeroing at the actual distance you are trying to replicate.
There is nothing that replaces shooting at actual distance for data.
Ballistic calculators can be close, but they are't perfect.
I make these statements from over 15 years of training, ,with several thousand students. I have participated, conducted, instructed, and given instruction on zeroing (at 25 meters, 36 yards, 50 yards and meters, 100 yards and meters, 200 yards, and 300 yards and meters), and I can wholly state that the long-range accuracy of one's zero is most consistently correct if one zeroes at 100 yards or further. This does not mean that one must have POI/POA at 100 yards/meters (for example, I like 2" high at 100 yards/meters for irons), simply that nailing down the actual zero at 100 yards/meters gives the user the highest probability of success.
I am not a fan of 25 yard "zeroing", as it has all of the issues I outlined, other than as a method of "getting on paper" for "real" zeroing at 50 or 100, and I see 10 yard zeroing as less preferable than the 25. If all you have is 10 or 25 yards, I get it, and it's better to do something than nothing, but I sincerely doubt that either Mr. Proctor or Mr. Hodnett would be happy with only a 10 yard zero with no correction at distance.
Every time I see F2S on the most recent posts, I know I'm going to get educated.
He's right. Firing at 10 or 25 or 36 yards to "get on paper" at 100+ yards is totally acceptable, and even expected.
Firing at 10 yards and expecting to be "zeroed" at 100+ is a fool's endeavor.
Concur. I have passed through the exact process he described multiple times. It works and it has many unforeseen benefits. I get on paper with solid groups at 36 and then stretch it out to 300. Not only is the zero much more solid and reliable, but it strengthens the fundamentals just to shoot at those distances. He gives bedrock solid info.
Every time I see F2S on the most recent posts, I know I'm going to get educated.
He's right. Firing at 10 or 25 or 36 yards to "get on paper" at 100+ yards is totally acceptable, and even expected.
Firing at 10 yards and expecting to be "zeroed" at 100+ is a fool's endeavor.
And in addition to being very knowledgable and experienced, F2S is modest. He's one of our resident Bad-Asses.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?94088-A-moderator-here-has-been-awarded-the-Bronze-Star
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?139914-Our-very-own-Failure2Stop-on-KAC-TV
There is nothing that replaces shooting at actual distance for data.
I like 2" high at 100 yards/meters for irons.
I wholeheartedly agree. I am a strong advocate of these two points.
FourT6and2
11-09-14, 15:51
I like 2" high at 100 yards/meters for irons
Damn, if I could even get to the point where I can call a shot 2" above a given point at 100 yards with iron sights, and then make that shot... and then actually put tight groups at that spot... I'd be ecstatic. :)
Your first groups with a rifle look better than my first rifle groups did, so it is well within your ability. I would think your Noveske is capable of better than 2 MOA, but take into account that it isn't uncommon for an AR to shoot around 2 MOA groups, so what you are describing isn't an easy task and is something you'll want to attempt after taking as much human error out of the equation as possible. Otherwise, when your groups don't wildly impress, you won't know where to lay the blame and improve. Safely dry firing at home helped my accuracy vastly improve. You'll get there quicker than you might think.
Damn, if I could even get to the point where I can call a shot 2" above a given point at 100 yards with iron sights, and then make that shot... and then actually put tight groups at that spot... I'd be ecstatic. :)
FourT6and2
11-09-14, 22:39
Your first groups with a rifle look better than my first rifle groups did, so it is well within your ability. I would think your Noveske is capable of better than 2 MOA, but take into account that it isn't uncommon for an AR to shoot around 2 MOA groups, so what you are describing isn't an easy task and is something you'll want to attempt after taking as much human error out of the equation as possible. Otherwise, when your groups don't wildly impress, you won't know where to lay the blame and improve. Safely dry firing at home helped my accuracy vastly improve. You'll get there quicker than you might think.
Just so I'm on the same page, 2 MOA would be a 2" x 2" square @ 50 yards?
The red bullseye on the 50-yard test target I used was 4 MOA. The green was 2, I think. I'd be happy with 4 at this point. That's my current goal.
St.Michael
11-10-14, 01:23
What is the the minimum recommended zero that carries to a longer one. I have watched SO many videos out there and just seen so many opinions. Didn't Paul Howe do one at 7 yards? It's been a while since I read into all of it. Just curious as I am sure the OP is.
edit: nvm I just saw Failure's post up a bit of ways and read it again.
Honorthecall81
11-10-14, 04:26
I don't think there is anything wrong with a 25 yd zero. I think it can be
more than just a get on paper zero. For most people these are fighting
carbines and not precision rifles unless your shooting a mark 12 or a
custom precision build. There is something to be said about learning
instinctual shooting and knowing hold overs and judging distance.
My rifle has a 25 yd zero and this is at 50 yds and at 100 my grouping
opens just just slightly more. It's good enough for me.
http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p774/grapplingtech77/photo22_zps9c490bf9.jpg (http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/grapplingtech77/media/photo22_zps9c490bf9.jpg.html)
Just so I'm on the same page, 2 MOA would be a 2" x 2" square @ 50 yards?
The red bullseye on the 50-yard test target I used was 4 MOA. The green was 2, I think. I'd be happy with 4 at this point. That's my current goal.
2 MOA is 2" circle at 100 yds. 2 MOA at 50 yds is a 1" circle. Think of MOA (minute of angle) as a pair of lines representing an angle exiting your barrel. The distance between the lines that start together at the muzzle gets progressively wider the further from the muzzle you measure it. 1 MOA is 1" at 100yds, 2" at 200, 3" at 300..... Example- If you shot a group with all bullets landing within a 1" circle at 50 yds it would be a 2 MOA group. If you shot another target at 200 yds and all of the bullets land within a 4" circle its still a 2 MOA group. If shooting at 25 yds and your goal is 4 MOA all bullets should impact within a 1" diameter circle.
thebarracuda
11-10-14, 06:50
And in addition to being very knowledgable and experienced, F2S is modest. He's one of our resident Bad-Asses.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?94088-A-moderator-here-has-been-awarded-the-Bronze-Star
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?139914-Our-very-own-Failure2Stop-on-KAC-TV
Thank you for posting these links. When F2S posts, you know you're getting it straight.
4 MOA at 100 yards is a good goal. Improvement is always a good goal. One of the dry firing exercises that helps me improve is folding an index card in half, so it can stand on a table, shelf, etc, and I place a small black dot on the card with a fine point sharpie. The idea is to make the dot small enough that when you line up on the card, at whatever distance you have available, you could fit 6 or 8 of them on the top of your front sight post. This way you practice bisecting your FSP with a tiny target. This is similar to how a 12" target will appear at 300 meters.
Clear your gun and put the ammo away. Get a stable position, practice the fundamentals, and squeeze the trigger while avoiding disturbance of your sight picture. If I'm really chasing accuracy I will do this at the range as well before firing my groups.
Just so I'm on the same page, 2 MOA would be a 2" x 2" square @ 50 yards?
The red bullseye on the 50-yard test target I used was 4 MOA. The green was 2, I think. I'd be happy with 4 at this point. That's my current goal.
I don't think there is anything wrong with a 25 yd zero. I think it can be
more than just a get on paper zero
Yes, a shooter needs to know their hold overs at 25 yards and in. If all you've got to shoot at is a 25 yard range then shoot it. But if you want to know what your rifle is doing, make the effort to shoot it at 100 - 300 yards to refine your zero. A group can look like it's dead on at 25 yards and be off by an inch or even two at 100. A group at 25 yards can be off, say a half inch and look like it's good enough, but that's four inches at 100.
Shooters that limit themselves to 25 or 50 yards and in are depriving themselves of a lot of important knowledge. There are experienced AR shooters that don't think a 10.5 inch barrel is very effective at 200 yards because they've never tried it. I get 2 - 4 inch 5 shot groups (depending on ammo) with my 10.5 inch shorty with a 4 MOA dot at 200 yards. Checking it's POA/POI at 200 yards refined POA/POI at CQB ranges. It's the difference between knowing where the bullet will impact versus thinking you know
(For the noobies-
POA is Point of Aim
POI is Point of Impact)
FourT6and2
11-10-14, 09:44
2 MOA is 2" circle at 100 yds. 2 MOA at 50 yds is a 1" circle. Think of MOA (minute of angle) as a pair of lines representing an angle exiting your barrel. The distance between the lines that start together at the muzzle gets progressively wider the further from the muzzle you measure it. 1 MOA is 1" at 100yds, 2" at 200, 3" at 300..... Example- If you shot a group with all bullets landing within a 1" circle at 50 yds it would be a 2 MOA group. If you shot another target at 200 yds and all of the bullets land within a 4" circle its still a 2 MOA group. If shooting at 25 yds and your goal is 4 MOA all bullets should impact within a 1" diameter circle.
Wait, but the target I used said the red circle is 4 MOA @ 50 yards. And each square is 1" x 1", so that means the red circle is 4". The green circle is 2 MOA @ 50 yards and measures 2". But according to what you just said, it would make the red circle 8 MOA and the green 4 MOA? If you read the target info at the top it explains it.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/d/a/group_2_by_haftelm-d85rqqz.jpg
Failure2Stop
11-10-14, 10:20
Forgot another important aspect of zeroing:
Precise distance to target requirement.
Here's an example; 16" shooting Mk 262 with a desired 100 meter zero, you can have an error in range of 32 meters short, or 12 meters long and still be within 0.1 inches of correct group position.
With a 25 meter zero (POA/POI), you are 0.3 inches in error if you are 3 meters in error in distance.
With a 10 meter zero, even with a 1.9" group offset, an error of 1 meter in distance will put your group center off by 0.3 inches.
Zeroing at the culminating point of the projectile gives you more distance that the projectile is hanging out with POA/POI intersection, and even if you are doing an offset zero you can achieve more, easier, by refining the zero at around 100 meters/yards.
Now, it's easy to say that you won't err by 1-3 meters, however; many forget that their sights adjust from the center of the optic, not from the end of the barrel. This is not an issue with a longer distance zeroing scheme. Many do not have to proper tools for accurate ranging at close distances, as many range-finders are accurate to within 1 yard/meter. Running ground distance can incur error if the tape is not kept taut and level from muzzle to target. Again, these are not problems if you can get a target out to around 100 meters.
I really don't care how one chooses to zero their rifles, and if you are happy with what you have, good for you. I'm not telling anyone that they should change, I am simply working to educate those that are not fully comfortable with the process, and to counter advice that I have found to give sub-optimal result.
Failure2Stop
11-10-14, 10:30
Wait, but the target I used said the red circle is 4 MOA @ 50 yards. And each square is 1" x 1", so that means the red circle is 4". The green circle is 2 MOA @ 50 yards and measures 2". But according to what you just said, it would make the red circle 8 MOA and the green 4 MOA? If you read the target info at the top it explains it.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/d/a/group_2_by_haftelm-d85rqqz.jpg
1 MOA is 1.047 inches at 100 yards.
This can be simplified to 1" at 100 yards.
It is an angular measurement, therefore, 1 MOA is:
0.25" at 25 yards
0.5" at 50 yards
1.0" at 100 yards
2.0" at 200 yards
5.0" at 500 yards
etc.
1/2 MOA would be half those values, and 2 MOA would be double those values.
At 50 yards:
1/2 MOA= 0.25"
1 MOA= 0.5"
2 MOA= 1.0"
4 MOA= 2.0"
EDITED:
Squares are 1/2", as noted below.
Wait, but the target I used said the red circle is 4 MOA @ 50 yards. And each square is 1" x 1", so that means the red circle is 4". The green circle is 2 MOA @ 50 yards and measures 2". But according to what you just said, it would make the red circle 8 MOA and the green 4 MOA? If you read the target info at the top it explains it.
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/312/d/a/group_2_by_haftelm-d85rqqz.jpg
The squares on that target are 1/2", not 1".
Failure2Stop
11-10-14, 10:32
The squares on that target are 1/2", not 1".
This seems to answer the issue.
FourT6and2
11-10-14, 10:44
The squares on that target are 1/2", not 1".
Oh, you are absolutely correct. For some reason I thought they were 1". Just pulled out a ruler and measured.
Ok, so yeah the goal I'm working toward is to shoot a group the size of that red circle at 100 yards, which would be 2 MOA. But if I'm understanding this correctly, that's a tough thing to do. I'd settle for 4 MOA :D
Oh, you are absolutely correct. For some reason I thought they were 1". Just pulled out a ruler and measured.
Ok, so yeah the goal I'm working toward is to shoot a group the size of that red circle at 100 yards, which would be 2 MOA. But if I'm understanding this correctly, that's a tough thing to do. I'd settle for 4 MOA :D
4 MOA with a carbine is a good goal to start off. When you can consistently shoot 4 MOA concentric groups at 100 yards, you have accomplished something and can move on to your next goal.
I downloaded SR-1, SR-21 and MR-31 targets off the internet, print them on 8-1/2" x 11" paper and use them at 100 yards for iron sight zeroing. You will reach the point where you have no need to post a paper target any larger than 8-1/2" x 11" at 100 yards and that would be a good goal.
Oh, you are absolutely correct. For some reason I thought they were 1". Just pulled out a ruler and measured.
Ok, so yeah the goal I'm working toward is to shoot a group the size of that red circle at 100 yards, which would be 2 MOA. But if I'm understanding this correctly, that's a tough thing to do. I'd settle for 4 MOA :D
You have to also consider the mechanical accuracy of the gun and ammunition package you are shooting when setting your goals. I believe most here would agree that 1.5-2 MOA with XM193 out of a service grade barrel is acceptable accuracy. That means that 1 1/2-2 inches variation in where the bullets hit at 100yds is out of your control without spending money on the gun and target ammo! If you can shoot 4 MOA from an improvised rest with a dot sight and mill trigger you will be doing better than most of us me included! 8 MOA is a reasonable goal.
FourT6and2
11-10-14, 16:21
You have to also consider the mechanical accuracy of the gun and ammunition package you are shooting when setting your goals. I believe most here would agree that 1.5-2 MOA with XM193 out of a service grade barrel is acceptable accuracy. That means that 1 1/2-2 inches variation in where the bullets hit at 100yds is out of your control without spending money on the gun and target ammo! If you can shoot 4 MOA from an improvised rest with a dot sight and mill trigger you will be doing better than most of us me included! 8 MOA is a reasonable goal.
If 1.5-2.0 MOA is "acceptable," why is 4 MOA "better than most" and 8 MOA "reasonable"?
Or are you saying XM193 has a variation of 1.5-2.0 MOA and that shooting 4 MOA at 100 yards with this ammo is tough. And 8 MOA is par for the course?
In any event, I'm not sure if my barrel is "service grade" or not, or whether my trigger is "mil" or not. Barrel is Noveske CHF 16". Trigger is ALG Defense ACT.
St.Michael
11-10-14, 16:34
In the opinion of the professionals who have the extensive work in, at a hundred yards should people be shooting more stationary or with lets say an aimpoint can targets be serviced and what would be a considered a decent moa for something like that
I think 3 MOA is a reasonable expectation with M193 fired out of a good carbine. My current carbine has a chrome lined 1:9 barrel with the 5.56mm chamber. At 100 yards most 10 shot groups run 2" with the occasional flyer opening some groups to 3". Firing 40 rounds at 300 yards, most hits are inside a 7" area with a few flyers opening the group up to 9". All groups for record are fired with iron sights from the prone position. With my Aimpoint the results are close to the same at 300 yards, but with a 4MOA dot it requires more effort.
We are not talking about a well worn military issue carbine, but a civilian version with 3,480 rounds fired through it.
OP, a goal of 4 MOA is reasonable with your Noveske barrel and good ammunition.
FourT6and2
11-10-14, 16:51
I think 3 MOA is a reasonable expectation with M193 fired out of a good carbine. My current carbine has a chrome lined 1:9 barrel with the 5.56mm chamber. At 100 yards most 10 shot groups run 2" with the occasional flyer opening some groups to 3". Firing 40 rounds at 300 yards, most hits are inside a 7" area with a few flyers opening the group up to 9". All groups for record are fired with iron sights from the prone position. With my Aimpoint the results are close to the same at 300 yards, but with a 4MOA dot it requires more effort.
We are not talking about a well worn military issue carbine, but a civilian version with 3,480 rounds fired through it.
OP, a goal of 4 MOA is reasonable with your Noveske barrel and good ammunition.
Cool, thanks.
In the opinion of the professionals who have the extensive work in, at a hundred yards should people be shooting more stationary or with lets say an aimpoint can targets be serviced and what would be a considered a decent moa for something like that
When working a 100m range, I've seen our average Soldiers shooting around 5-6" groups with CompM4s and M855 in the prone. The better shooters looked like they were shooting 3.5-4" groups, but with our ammo, it's a crapshoot because of the inconsistencies of the steel cores. With my formerly owned H-1 I was grouping right at 2.5" with XM193 at 100 and could consistently make hits kneeling and prone out to 400 with that setup. I feel that's really as far as I'd want to push a red dot and would prefer to have at least 4x magnification to aid in PID.
In my experience, 5-shot groups between 3-4" at 100 is more than good enough to take you out to 400 consistently with an Aimpoint. I prefer the 50/200 zero for red dots while many prefer the 100. Just learn your holds and you'll be good to go.
When you get comfortable with basic marksmanship, manipulation of your carbine and funds are available, I suggest taking a basic carbine course from a reputable instructor.
St.Michael
11-10-14, 17:10
Oh yeah always. Problem is with a class a year it is hard to keep the skills sharp
FourT6and2
11-10-14, 17:16
When you get comfortable with basic marksmanship, manipulation of your carbine and funds are available, I suggest taking a basic carbine course from a reputable instructor.
Absolutely. I'm trying to find one in my area that doesn't require all sorts of additional gear/equipment that I don't have.
FourT6and2
11-10-14, 17:16
Also, I do have a 1-6x scope on the way. But I'm going to focus on using the irons for now.
If 1.5-2.0 MOA is "acceptable," why is 4 MOA "better than most" and 8 MOA "reasonable"?
Or are you saying XM193 has a variation of 1.5-2.0 MOA and that shooting 4 MOA at 100 yards with this ammo is tough. And 8 MOA is par for the course?
In any event, I'm not sure if my barrel is "service grade" or not, or whether my trigger is "mil" or not. Barrel is Noveske CHF 16". Trigger is ALG Defense ACT.
The Noveske CHF barrel is a service grade barrel. The ALG trigger is an improved mil trigger but not a target trigger. XM193 is service grade ammunition. None of the three were manufactured to shoot single hole groups at 100 yds. If you could clamp your gun in a vise, remotely pull the trigger and get 2 MOA groups it would be considered to have average mechanical accuracy. If the gun with no input from you can shoot 2 MOA and with you shooting it will produce 4 MOA groups it shows that you can hold 2 MOA. I think most of us agree that is better than average. I never said 8 MOA was par for any course... I said that an 8 MOA goal is reasonable. You need to quit trying to the pick fly shit out of a pile of pepper and listen to what we are saying.
birdkiller
11-11-14, 01:43
I tried the 90-degree bent arm thing to see where the stock falls. With the stock extended all the way out, I still have to bend my wrist sharply to grab the pistol grip. If I let my wrist fall naturally my palm is almost past the grip.
Hey FourT6and2, I feel like you're talking about the grip angle of the pistol grip, and not so much the actual stock adjustment. Check out the Bravo Company gunfighter grip, it has a more vertical angle than the Magpul grip that's on your rifle. Magpul makes the K2 to do the same thing. Think 1911 grip angle vs Glock grip angle, just more exaggerated.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Pistol-Grips-s/160.htm
http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG522/grips
FourT6and2
11-11-14, 08:38
Hey FourT6and2, I feel like you're talking about the grip angle of the pistol grip, and not so much the actual stock adjustment. Check out the Bravo Company gunfighter grip, it has a more vertical angle than the Magpul grip that's on your rifle. Magpul makes the K2 to do the same thing. Think 1911 grip angle vs Glock grip angle, just more exaggerated.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Pistol-Grips-s/160.htm
http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG522/grips
That's part of it, so one of those grips might help, thanks! But it's also that I need a little more extension in the stock too. I got one of the Magpul extended butt pads which might give me the little bit of extra space I need too.
birdkiller
11-11-14, 11:51
No problem. I know I had the same feeling of pinching/just not right with the traditional angle, especially when squaring up to the target.
Are you basing your length requirements off of benching the gun, or practicing standing/varied positions at your house?
FourT6and2
11-11-14, 12:38
Are you basing your length requirements off of benching the gun, or practicing standing/varied positions at your house?
Both. Granted, I need more actual shooting time too.
birdkiller
11-11-14, 12:56
Obviously it's a lot of preference, but at 6'0 I only run my stocks 2-3 clicks out for most situations.
Failure2Stop
11-11-14, 14:11
Obviously it's a lot of preference, but at 6'0 I only run my stocks 2-3 clicks out for most situations.
I'm 5'11", and the second or third single thing that most improved my overall performance with a carbine was taking the stock out to full extension.
And that is with the Magpul .70 enhanced buttpad on the STR.
Not trying to be argumentative, just noting that folks generally are able to more readily attain a higher level of performance with a more extended stock and an aggressive, athletic/combative stance.
We got diverted into trying to use M4s/Mk18s like MP5s/MP5-SDs for a while, and outside of a few areas, I believe that it hindered the progression of the community.
Sorry for the diatribe, nothing personal.
FourT6and2
11-11-14, 14:13
I'm 5'11", and the second or third single thing that most improved my overall performance with a carbine was taking the stock out to full extension.
And that is with the Magpul .70 enhanced buttpad on the STR.
Not trying to be argumentative, just noting that folks generally are able to more readily attain a higher level of performance with a more extended stock and an aggressive, athletic/combative stance.
We got diverted into trying to use M4s/Mk18s like MP5s/MP5-SDs for a while, and outside of a few areas, I believe that it hindered the progression of the community.
Sorry for the diatribe, nothing personal.
Yup. I am using the same stock (STR) and I have the .70" Enhanced Pad on the way.
birdkiller
11-11-14, 15:52
I'm 5'11", and the second or third single thing that most improved my overall performance with a carbine was taking the stock out to full extension.
And that is with the Magpul .70 enhanced buttpad on the STR.
Not trying to be argumentative, just noting that folks generally are able to more readily attain a higher level of performance with a more extended stock and an aggressive, athletic/combative stance.
We got diverted into trying to use M4s/Mk18s like MP5s/MP5-SDs for a while, and outside of a few areas, I believe that it hindered the progression of the community.
Sorry for the diatribe, nothing personal.
Nothing personal taken at all. I was taught to shoot from a guy that was from the MP5 technique/SWAT background, so I used to be all about the collapsed stock squared up stance grabbing the magwell, but partially because of the fixed stock on the training gun I had access to I started shifting out of that. 2-3 notches out is a lot closer to the technique I've read about you and others advocating than I was at before, add in the aggressive/athletic stance I've switched to, and I can tell that my shooting has improved.
That to say, I completely agree with what you're saying and reading what you and others have written on the subject has really helped me grow as a shooter. It's just my personal preference right now to keep the stock collapsed in a bit more than full extension.
St.Michael
11-11-14, 16:10
Wait so now "nose to charging handle" is less effective? Or is it really just opinion on that matter?
FourT6and2
11-11-14, 16:12
Wait so now "nose to charging handle" is less effective? Or is it really just opinion on that matter?
I'm just repeating what I've read, but it does make sense to me, that it's not about NTCH or not NTCH. It's about being consistent wherever you choose to put your schnoz.
I'm 5'11", and the second or third single thing that most improved my overall performance with a carbine was taking the stock out to full extension.
And that is with the Magpul .70 enhanced buttpad on the STR.
Not trying to be argumentative, just noting that folks generally are able to more readily attain a higher level of performance with a more extended stock and an aggressive, athletic/combative stance.
We got diverted into trying to use M4s/Mk18s like MP5s/MP5-SDs for a while, and outside of a few areas, I believe that it hindered the progression of the community.
Sorry for the diatribe, nothing personal.
Thanks for posting this. I've been having a tough time figuring out the right lop, apparently it's measured the same as a bolt rifle. Thanks again
fedupflyer
11-14-14, 01:15
I will definitely seek out a class of some sort. People keep recommended Appleseed. But they suggest you bring a lot of gear and supplies I don't have.
You don't need much for an Appleseed.
1. You already have the rifle.
2. 200-250 rnds of ammo.
3. Hearing protection.
4. Eye protection.
5. GI sling (sling and swivels are about $20)
6. A trainable attitude.
A shooting mat or carpet remnants are nice to have but not required, just keeps you from tearing your elbows up.
Lot shoot I attended, guy were using yoga mats from Walmart and they work just find.
Failure2Stop
11-14-14, 07:08
Wait so now "nose to charging handle" is less effective? Or is it really just opinion on that matter?
NTCH is a technique best reserved for iron sights, and even then, is simply a method of consistency for those new to the game.
Where the head falls on the stock can be altered by the degree of cant of the upper body, the closer the gun to the support shoulder, the further forward on the stock the face will naturally land, as seen in bullseye shooting where the shooter will need to remain stable for a long period of time. This position puts the support arm under the balance point of the rifle, making it easier to support for an extended period of time without incurring muscle fatigue.
NTCH is not going to work with most optics (other than the TA31 and TA01, with their 1.5" of eye relief), especially variables.
It also puts anyone with facial hair in an uncomfortable position.
So, NTCH may be good for you or less than optimal, depending on what you are doing with the gun and what you have on it.
St.Michael
11-14-14, 09:04
NTCH is a technique best reserved for iron sights, and even then, is simply a method of consistency for those new to the game.
Where the head falls on the stock can be altered by the degree of cant of the upper body, the closer the gun to the support shoulder, the further forward on the stock the face will naturally land, as seen in bullseye shooting where the shooter will need to remain stable for a long period of time. This position puts the support arm under the balance point of the rifle, making it easier to support for an extended period of time without incurring muscle fatigue.
NTCH is not going to work with most optics (other than the TA31 and TA01, with their 1.5" of eye relief), especially variables.
It also puts anyone with facial hair in an uncomfortable position.
So, NTCH may be good for you or less than optimal, depending on what you are doing with the gun and what you have on it.
Perfect. Thank you for clearing that up.
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