View Full Version : Letting other people shoot your handloads....
Sometimes it's a good thing.
Pappabear went out without me and let some guy we don't know shoot my 80 SMKs and 77 Nosler loads through an accurized AR of some sort.
80s on the left, and 77s on the right. (he wanted the recipe ;) )
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/80and77_zps086009ac.jpg
Nice! So did he give it to him?
Is that your H322 load?
How many shots is that? I'm gonna go crazy chasing this kind of group now...
markm,
I keep looking at your post and cannot find the recipes. Please post them and the distance at which the groups were shot.
How many shots is that? I'm gonna go crazy chasing this kind of group now...
Kinda looks like three. He's probably full of shit & those are BH 77 TMKs. :p
Sorry Mark. :D
Leaveammoforme
11-10-14, 17:50
One shot each but the corn cob left in the cases made the ragged holes? :)
those were 5 shot groups. The place we shot had a 571, 1,000 and 1,400 yard steel. But it is very rocky with many hills. So it was not a perfect 100, it is a little under a 100. 90-ish I think. The cliff drops off and makes a 100 very tuff. Either way, the groups were crazy. The guy had a single shot set up.
He also said one interesting thing. The first round loaded by dropping the bolt may shoot different than the other rounds in semi auto mode. I have not seen that so much. But the first round flyer isn't unusual either.
The first round loaded by dropping the bolt may shoot different than the other rounds in semi auto mode.
This is gospel over at M14.com...
He also said one interesting thing. The first round loaded by dropping the bolt may shoot different than the other rounds in semi auto mode. I have not seen that so much. But the first round flyer isn't unusual either.
That is a fact of life with a M1A or M1 Garand. A bench rest shooter might notice the phenomenon with an AR-15.
We have shot countless .5 inch groups without this happening. But it's worth taking notice because I'm sure some AR's might exhibit this more than others.
One thing for sure: those rounds shoot lights out in every gun we have ever shot. It's down right silly.
gofundme.com and let's get markm set up for manufacturing.
gofundme.com and let's get markm set up for manufacturing.
He should move to Vegas and set up here!
Kinda looks like three. He's probably full of shit & those are BH 77 TMKs. :p
Sorry Mark. :D
:sarcastic:
markm,
I keep looking at your post and cannot find the recipes. Please post them and the distance at which the groups were shot.
The 80s are just Published max H322 off of Hodgdon's sight. Naturally the Wolf Primer is a critical part... and the usual light LEE Factory crimp to equalize neck tension.
The 77s are 21.6 gr H322 as well. Wolf or Tula (same thing) primer, and the Light Factory crimp.
The 80s are just Published max H322 off of Hodgdon's sight. Naturally the Wolf Primer is a critical part... and the usual light LEE Factory crimp to equalize neck tension.
The 77s are 21.6 gr H322 as well. Wolf or Tula (same thing) primer, and the Light Factory crimp.
Thank you. I'll put that in my recipe book.
Why the wolf primers?
Eta: amazing groups.
Why the wolf primers?
Eta: amazing groups.
God only knows-and the Rooskies, but those Primers are the top shelf. Or one of the best. We initially bought them because they were cheap, but later found they were great. Other Bench rest shooters confirmed the same.
We tried to substitute other CCI BR primers and more expensive "quality" primers and our groups opened up. ??
PB
Why the wolf primers?
Wolf/Tula primers are milder than US made primers. Best results are often found when using the mildest primer that you get reliable ignition with.
We've had buddies who cut their SDs in half on their loads.... like going from 18 to 9.
Wolf/Tula primers are milder than US made primers. Best results are often found when using the mildest primer that you get reliable ignition with.
We've had buddies who cut their SDs in half on their loads.... like going from 18 to 9.
I would like to try these primers, are they the small rifle NCSR, small rifle 223 NC223, or the small rifle magnum NCSRM?
I would like to try these primers, are they the small rifle NCSR, small rifle 223 NC223, or the small rifle magnum NCSRM?
We tested them all, and they all are excellent performers. A slight... very slight advantage to the .223 version with the copper colored compound. The shot as accurately as the others with a slightly higher velocity. They are much more expensive locally however. So I just bulk order Tula or Wolf SRMs online.
We tested them all, and they all are excellent performers. A slight... very slight advantage to the .223 version with the copper colored compound. The shot as accurately as the others with a slightly higher velocity. They are much more expensive locally however. So I just bulk order Tula or Wolf SRMs online.
Thanks! I will try them out.
He also said one interesting thing. The first round loaded by dropping the bolt may shoot different than the other rounds in semi auto mode. I have not seen that so much. But the first round flyer isn't unusual either.
Can anyone explain why this is, or post a link to an explanation? Is it truly a case of some mechanical oddity, or more of a case of something psychological with the shooter, cold shooter verses cold gun type of thing
Can anyone explain why this is, or post a link to an explanation? Is it truly a case of some mechanical oddity, or more of a case of something psychological with the shooter, cold shooter verses cold gun type of thing
Mel Johnson (of 1941 Johnson fame) wrote an entire article for American Rifleman in the late 40's on the subject of the first round anomaly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvin_Johnson This topic has been covered in great detail on the CMP Forums and other target shooting related forums.
From personal experience, I can tell you that the first round POI can be considerably different than the rest of the rounds in a fired group with the M1 Garand, M-14, M1A and M1 Carbine. This anomaly occurs with either a warm or cold barrel. It occurs to a much lesser extent with the AR-15, I believe due to the way the bolt locks up with the barrel extension, but it can occur.
On the M1A platform, I hand picked and marked magazines to use for High Power Rifle Competition, because of their effect on the POI. Some say it is because of the way the first round feeds from the magazine and some believe it is because of the way the next round or follower in the magazine applies pressure to the bottom of the bolt when it is in full battery.
When I saw unexplained flyers with an AR-15 with a good barrel and good loads, the first thing I did was use a different magazine. Sometimes it made a difference and sometimes it did not. Where a M1A might shoot the first round 2"-3" outside the edge of a group at 100 yards, an AR-15 might shoot the first round 1" outside the edge of the group. On a reduced distance course of fire, the X Ring on a MR-31 target is 11/16" in diameter, so a 1" flyer can make all the difference in the world.
I have seen this to a much greater extent when shooting the Smith & Wesson Model 39 and Model 6904 at 100 yards. I believe the violent action of going into full battery after firing the pistol chambers the round differently than manual battery. It is possible the same applies to the service rifle.
That is crazy, I've never head of that before. It's definitely interesting though.
That is crazy, I've never head of that before. It's definitely interesting though.
When attempting to shoot groups, I'll often load 7 rounds, dump the first 2 on a steel target, and then settle in to try to test the load.
When attempting to shoot groups, I'll often load 7 rounds, dump the first 2 on a steel target, and then settle in to try to test the load.
You let the barrel cool between shots? I don't know if it really matters all that much, but I try to let it cool back down to the ambient temp when I'm trying to get the groups as small as possible.
You let the barrel cool between shots? I don't know if it really matters all that much, but I try to let it cool back down to the ambient temp when I'm trying to get the groups as small as possible.
I do for magnum rifle rounds. But not in .223 or .308 for a 7 round string. I just shoot them as I feel comfortable.
I ran the BCM ELW through a hot barrel test. I shot a 5 round group, then shot a full mag (28 rounds), then shot another 5 round group. The hot barrel didn't show any measurable difference in POI or accuracy. I suppose some barrels may be temp sensitive, but I haven't seen it.
Wow, I never would have considered that being a factor, I will have to look for that article and try to discover what the actual forces and physics are that cause that, might make for an interesting paper in one of my future ME classes.
My Ruger 10-22 will put the first round (manual feed) better than an inch high at 25 yards compared to those from auto reload. I usually shoot the first round into the ground and reload the mag when shooting groups. I understand there is a fix for that but haven't tried it yet.
RVTMaverick
12-11-14, 13:25
My Ruger 10-22 will put the first round (manual feed) better than an inch high at 25 yards compared to those from auto reload. I usually shoot the first round into the ground and reload the mag when shooting groups. I understand there is a fix for that but haven't tried it yet.
Can You share with us what this "Fix" might be?
Peace Jeff
Can You share with us what this "Fix" might be?
Peace Jeff
CPC, http://www.ct-precision.com/ , does a bolt mod that is supposed to fix first-round flyers, Check Rimfire Central http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=558091 for the BB fix. You can also use a roll pin jammed in the slot according to one guy on Rimfire Central.
I always take off first shots off target when firing for accuracy(cold bore) and even off chrony when testing loads.
Hell, I honestly go as far as not measuring the first two passes of a new powder load change in my progressive reloaders - start measuring at 3rd case for 5 cases.
I know that some people shoot warm up shots, exclude some shots, etc. when shooting groups. I don't do any of that. I shoot ten rounds and measure the group warts and all.
RVTMaverick
12-12-14, 08:03
CPC, http://www.ct-precision.com/ , does a bolt mod that is supposed to fix first-round flyers, Check Rimfire Central http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=558091 for the BB fix. You can also use a roll pin jammed in the slot according to one guy on Rimfire Central.
Cool, Thanks mang.,
Hell, I honestly go as far as not measuring the first two passes of a new powder load change in my progressive reloaders - start measuring at 3rd case for 5 cases.
Me too. I mean.. the first charge is visibly out of whack often. I'll take a measurement of like the 3rd, 4th, and 5th before I start crankin.
m1a_scoutguy
12-12-14, 23:56
Me too. I mean.. the first charge is visibly out of whack often. I'll take a measurement of like the 3rd, 4th, and 5th before I start crankin.
I agree,,I always check/weigh the 1st through 4 or 5 rds by weighing everyone ! After I get going I check every 15th to 20th just for the heck of it ! I have had a few underpowered loads in my 35 plus years of reloading but all exited the BBL ! I have only had 1 squib where the bullet stayed in the bbl in all my years. I mite not let a total stranger shoot my stuff,,but my main shooting buddies and I share all kinds of stuff !
I don't check much after getting the measure settled in. But I do have a light that shines into the necks where I visually see every charge. That works good for me. I catch weird case volume 223 brass quite often.
Sparky5019
12-13-14, 19:30
I don't check much after getting the measure settled in. But I do have a light that shines into the necks where I visually see every charge. That works good for me. I catch weird case volume 223 brass quite often.
That's funny! I was just telling a buddy of mine that I was surprised that the LC 12 and 13 head stamps were setting the powder checker off every time but the charges were perfect when I weighed them.
Nice groups dude!
m1a_scoutguy
12-13-14, 21:06
That's funny! I was just telling a buddy of mine that I was surprised that the LC 12 and 13 head stamps were setting the powder checker off every time but the charges were perfect when I weighed them.
Nice groups dude!
Case volume ! LC versus commercial there is always a difference !
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