SHTF - White light & Aimpoint vs. NVG & laser

[gjj]

In a SHTF/Katrina/Rodney King riot scenario, how would you compare the usefulness of the above two combinations? They both are a way to deal with home and/or neighborhood defense in a night environment. They both have pro's and con's.

If you had both, which situations would you choose to go white light and which situations would be better served by night vision goggles and a laser?

(I have some theories. I want to see what others post)

[The Archangel]

As civilian (most of the time), I would not seek out trouble even in Katrina / L.A. Riots - type scenarios because I still fall under the mercy of our FUBAR judicial system regardless of whether there is a temporary breakdown of civil infrastructure, or not. I will protect myself and my own from potential threats, but I will not be involved in any looter hunts.

As a civilian, you are hard-pressed to justify shooting someone over 25 feet, needless to say 100+ yards with your AR equipted with PVS-14, IR PEQ-2/4, silencer and Mk262 Mod 1 ammo.

I think that 99.99% of your needs will be met sufficiently with common sense, proper training (Howe, Vickers, Rogers, Haley, etc...), a quality AR, ammo & light combo (in that order).

[gjj]

I would not seek out trouble either. It could come to you and/or your neighborhood. In a Katrina/Rodney King style event, a deadly threat could easily be 50-100 yards away. I think the opinion that something is only a threat if they are at <25 yards is one that has been repeated so many times that it is taken as truth without thinking it through.

Think about it. 50-100 yards is not that far. It is the distance to the end of my street. You could have a group of people burning your neighbor's house down. You can use deadly force to stop a felony act that will result in people dying. Or, they could be dragging your neighbor's wife or daughter out of the house to do bad things. You are justified in shooting a rapist at 50 yards or 100 yards. You could have someone on a hill shooting at you from a distance during the chaos. In a riot, anything could happen. It is not home defense.

The primary role of night vision and a laser would be where you have an armed group approaching your house with the intent to loot or murder. This is not necessarily a long distance scenario. Realistically, in any protracted situation, the average person has less than one weeks food in their kitchen. People will be going house to house after a short period of time. The NVG would give you the ability to detect (most important) and engage them before they are in your house.

It can happen. Not likely to happen. But, it can.

[Failure2Stop]

NODs and lasers seem super-ninja to most people, but the reality of their employment in anything other than offensive action is really limited, especially for a civilian.

There are other considerations (other than the various legal and moral issues) that come into play with NODs and IR Lasers. Where are you going to zero the laser? How are you going to train with the system? How comfortable are you with just walking around with NODs on, let alone fighting with them? I am not saying that they might not come in handy at some point, just that they require as much, or more training than more conventional methods.

I have some experience with NODs and lasers and their use against people, and I am in no rush to squirt thousands of dollars into a decent NOD system, let alone a decent IR system.

If you have already made up your mind then buy the best you possibly can. The Gen I Russian crap is worse than nothing at all.

But that's just me.

[gjj]

I have Gen III PVS7B goggles. I am not sold 100% on the utility of a laser on my fighting rifle either. At the very least, the goggles give me a GREAT way to scan my environment in a SHTF scenario undetected. I have no question in my mind that this will be a useful thing.

If I did get a laser for my AR15, I think I would go with a visible laser. I am actually a laser engineer. So, I know the damage an IR laser can do. You can't see it and it is possible you could catch a reflection off a shiny object. Eye damage. No thanks. A simple red 635nm laser will work fine. It would only give away your position if there is alot of moisture in the air so that the beam is visible from a side angle.

I have hunted coyotes with my NV goggles. You are right. They take ALOT of getting used to. They are uncomfortable to wear on the head for extended periods of time. Most likely my plan would be to use the goggles like you would use binoculars during the day to detect a threat. Then, engage the threat using white light / Aimpoint on my AR15.

[The Archangel]

I would not seek out trouble either. It could come to you and/or your neighborhood. In a Katrina/Rodney King style event, a deadly threat could easily be 50-100 yards away. I think the opinion that something is only a threat if they are at <25 yards is one that has been repeated so many times that it is taken as truth without thinking it through.

Think about it. 50-100 yards is not that far. It is the distance to the end of my street. You could have a group of people burning your neighbor's house down. You can use deadly force to stop a felony act that will result in people dying. Or, they could be dragging your neighbor's wife or daughter out of the house to do bad things. You are justified in shooting a rapist at 50 yards or 100 yards. You could have someone on a hill shooting at you from a distance during the chaos. In a riot, anything could happen. It is not home defense.

The primary role of night vision and a laser would be where you have an armed group approaching your house with the intent to loot or murder. This is not necessarily a long distance scenario. Realistically, in any protracted situation, the average person has less than one weeks food in their kitchen. People will be going house to house after a short period of time. The NVG would give you the ability to detect (most important) and engage them before they are in your house.

It can happen. Not likely to happen. But, it can.


I agree with you 99% on this. As far as my reference to threats <25 yards, that is not a regurgitation of something that I heard from someone's brother's cousin who read it on the internet soomewhere. In some states (that have CHL), you are obligated to retreat before using deadly force. If you have no means of retreat or escape and you "feel" that your life, or the life of another potential victim is in danger/threatened, you may respond with the proper force to "end the threat."

As long as you are fully aware of the laws in your state, then proceed accordingly.

In the situations that you've stated above, I know what I'd do, but it is nothing that I would go into specific detail on a public internet forum. :)

[Iraqgunz]

I have my own AN/PVS-14 and an AN/PEQ-2A. Obviously in a SHTFF scenario these items could provide an advantage, as long as one understands their uses and limitations. However a good (several) white lights are equally as important for obvious reasons. It all depends on the threat at hand, what their potential capabilities are and just how serious the whole thing has become.

Personally a good suppressor would probably be worth its' weight in gold and prove even more valuable.

[Hootiewho]

NVG's would be better used for night time watch; you know, keep an eye on things and look for potential threats. This is only going to be effective if you have enough people to rotate out shifts, or if you happen to stumble across a big pile of industrial strenght stay awake powder, because after a day or so you will be mentally shot. (FWIW, I am not advocating the use of illegal substances)

They would be better suited for situations where you need to move through or out of an area at night, undetected. Or gather supplies at night undetected, and you can forget the 42" plasmas at Bust Buy, as they will be gone within the first two hours; trust me.

I think people have some grand illusion that in a bad situation like that; it will be like the movies or something, let me tell you it will be a miserable time for all involved, no matter how well prepared you are. I don't care how tough of a man you are, when you have a woman, with a 6 month old child come up to you crying, begging, and pleading for a cup of milk or formula for her baby, it will get to you. If you are a religious person, you will want your bible, and if you are not, you will probably want one all the same. I went down with my father the instant Hurricane Hugo passed over as we live upstate SC, actually we were on our way down as it was busting up over the coastal plains, and it was unimaginable. There were looters about, but not like Loiusiana; and for every looter there were 100 people who had just lost everything they owned and were in a complete state of shock. People sitting out on the street looking at their homes with 2-3 foot of swamp stink mud in the living room and a shrimping boat lodged in the forks of a live oak in their front yard, or maybe even their house. We took industrial plastic down to cover torn roofs and water, ice, bread, and formula. You cannot imagine the devistation and despair. Sure there will be a few hours or maybe even a few days of lawlessness, and don't get me wrong; I am just as prepared for that as any of you are, but in any situation like that you will do tons more with a shovel, chainsaw, some food, water, medicine, and good spirit than you will ever do with all the tactical gear in the world.

The next time a big hurricane blows in, load up a rental truck with supplies and head to ground zero, you will see what I mean.

In anything in life, there is how you perceive it in your mind, and then there is the reality of the situation. Walking around all armoured up ain't a 10th of what is involved in most natural disasters. If it is a bad enough disaster that civilization will change as we know it and there is slim to no hope that things will ever return to the way it was, then the gloves are off and it's every man for himself; then you'd better hope you'd bought some NOD's and you better hope you trained everyone in your family/group to fight.

[gjj]

Hootie, that is great advise. I live in California. Our most likely scenarios are a massive earthquake, Rodney King style riots, or the impending financial collapse of this country.

People here are cut from a different cloth than others in the country. I don't expect to see a huge amount of community spirit. I kind of expect the opposite.

No matter what, it will be different than what we expect.

[murderman]

NVG's would be better used for night time watch; you know, keep an eye on things and look for potential threats. This is only going to be effective if you have enough people to rotate out shifts, or if you happen to stumble across a big pile of industrial strenght stay awake powder, because after a day or so you will be mentally shot. (FWIW, I am not advocating the use of illegal substances)

They would be better suited for situations where you need to move through or out of an area at night, undetected. Or gather supplies at night undetected, and you can forget the 42" plasmas at Bust Buy, as they will be gone within the first two hours; trust me.

I think people have some grand illusion that in a bad situation like that; it will be like the movies or something, let me tell you it will be a miserable time for all involved, no matter how well prepared you are. I don't care how tough of a man you are, when you have a woman, with a 6 month old child come up to you crying, begging, and pleading for a cup of milk or formula for her baby, it will get to you. If you are a religious person, you will want your bible, and if you are not, you will probably want one all the same. I went down with my father the instant Hurricane Hugo passed over as we live upstate SC, actually we were on our way down as it was busting up over the coastal plains, and it was unimaginable. There were looters about, but not like Loiusiana; and for every looter there were 100 people who had just lost everything they owned and were in a complete state of shock. People sitting out on the street looking at their homes with 2-3 foot of swamp stink mud in the living room and a shrimping boat lodged in the forks of a live oak in their front yard, or maybe even their house. We took industrial plastic down to cover torn roofs and water, ice, bread, and formula. You cannot imagine the devistation and despair. Sure there will be a few hours or maybe even a few days of lawlessness, and don't get me wrong; I am just as prepared for that as any of you are, but in any situation like that you will do tons more with a shovel, chainsaw, some food, water, medicine, and good spirit than you will ever do with all the tactical gear in the world.

The next time a big hurricane blows in, load up a rental truck with supplies and head to ground zero, you will see what I mean.

In anything in life, there is how you perceive it in your mind, and then there is the reality of the situation. Walking around all armoured up ain't a 10th of what is involved in most natural disasters. If it is a bad enough disaster that civilization will change as we know it and there is slim to no hope that things will ever return to the way it was, then the gloves are off and it's every man for himself; then you'd better hope you'd bought some NOD's and you better hope you trained everyone in your family/group to fight.

I spent some time in the upper nint ward [there is no "h" in the local pronunciation] aka N.O. East, where I grew up, just a day or two after the Katrina floods had subsided. I only have one word for the experience....surreal.

[Jay Cunningham]

This has been a rather informative little thread with opinions from several experienced individuals. If you haven't yet checked it out, I would also recommend reading John_Wayne777's night fighting basics thread to compliment the info in ths one:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16114