View Full Version : How a stressed memeber trigger module changes the function of a SCAR
ALCON,
This thread is to answer questions about how a stressed member trigger module (Handl) in conjunction with a metal hinge changes the function of a SCAR (mk.17/17s).
#1 If you can find slow motion video of a SCAR firing from say the 4-5 o'clock or 1-2 o'clock position. I suggest you watch it before delving in. While watching watch the flex of upper receiver while the gun cycles.
#2 What I understand from the Handl guys, is the compression of the recoil spring then impact of the BCG against the base plate of the buttstock is what they call an "elastic collision". Think about slapping ghetto booty, it jiggles. If she is thick enough and you slap hard enough, her back, gut and legs will jiggle a bit too.
Now go slap the ass of a chick who is a gymnast or cross fitter. It doesn't move, it absorbs the slap (recoil). The density of the material and its tighter construction means those jiggles (secondary recoil impulses that eat optics/nvgs) don't have anywhere the same intensity. While they do not disappear completely they are hard to notice.
#3 Going back to #1 the upper receiver is the only rigid part of the gun that actually deals with recoil and not very much. The back end of the gun is all polymer taking the hits of the BCG. The guide rod retaining plate actually can act like a springboard for recoil. The stock base plate being polymer does not help with efficient return spring action. The polymer trigger module does not put any reward pressure on the baseplate nor does any of the alloy replacement other than the Handl.
The back of a SCAR is Ghetto booty, loose and sloppy.
#4 The Handl trigger module puts rearward pressure on the guide rod retaining plate. It has some changes to the dimensions and thickness of certain parts. This is in order to make the distance between the take down pin in front and the guide rod retaining plate is fixed and more importantly has pressure against the retaining plate.
#5 The buttstock base plate flexes under recoil, it transmits some of the recoil into the gun that should be going into the spring. The Handl baseplate changes that. It allows the recoil spring to work more effectively and absorb the recoil. It reduces the secondary recoil impulses into the gun (which was killing optics and NVG's)
The back end of a Handl equipped SCAR is tight like a 18 year old girls gymnastics gold medalists butt.
look at the movement in the gun between the two videos
In video #1 watch at about 5 minutes smooth during controlled pairs, recoil is straight back and up. This gun WAS NOT equipped the a stock base plate. Which IMO goes a real long way in improving the recoil management. But the effect of having a stressed member trigger module will become real apparent after video two.
http://youtu.be/8GxwVicY8SI
In video #2 look at the flex and movement in the gun, no way an accurate controlled pair is gonna happen with that. Just replacing polymer with alloy, no real improvement.
http://youtu.be/h1Y4DNLPNWk
#6 I hope this information brings clarity for those who have asked.
MadAngler1
11-11-14, 14:06
Can you or Handl provide a free body diagram that explains how adding the Handl lower receiver significantly reduces the stress imposed on the upper receiver? The lower receiver pushing up against the retaining plate alone should not make much of a significant difference in reducing the stress or recoil impulse on the upper receiver. Likewise, doing so may limit the ability of the back plate to move and absorb the recoil impulse of the bolt carrier and recoil guide rod. It would be akin to limiting the travel of a buffer spring/buffer assembly on an AR-15.
If one told me about an upgraded recoil spring and guide rod, and an updated retaining plate/buttstock baseplate, then I could see a reduction in the recoil "impulse" (Force x time) as the stress of the bolt carrier upon the upper receiver/recoil spring/retaining plate would be dissipated over a greater length of time.
I have yet to see any military documentation or randomized controlled trial demonstrating that the Handl lower is superior to the stock SCAR system, reduces stress on the upper receiver, etc. Likewise, I fail to see the need for the use of SR-25 magazines in a SCAR, now that SCAR-17 mags are widely available. The whole problem I have with criticisms leveled at the SCAR system (on both sides of the debate: detractors and supporters) is that nobody provides any data or demonstrates any real tests.
your post
MAD,
I will ask Alan Handl next time we talk. We have an agreement I tell him what the standards the gun should meet (without showing any .mil docs) and he tells me what they have found. I am not an employee of his I just advise him. He has a pretty serious gag order on his guys after the whole rev-engieering thing @FNfourms.
I presume you'd want to see the accelerometer data and the slow mo videos. anything else? I will ask but I can not guarantee a thing. Are you willing to PM me professional credentials? I will see if they will contact you. I am sure Handl would not want his IP just floating around the open net.
Also they do have a modified BCG and spring.
MadAngler1
11-11-14, 17:21
MAD,
I will ask Alan Handl next time we talk. We have an agreement I tell him what the standards the gun should meet (without showing any .mil docs) and he tells me what they have found. I am not an employee of his I just advise him. He has a pretty serious gag order on his guys after the whole rev-engieering thing @FNfourms.
I presume you'd want to see the accelerometer data and the slow mo videos. anything else? I will ask but I can not guarantee a thing. Are you willing to PM me professional credentials? I will see if they will contact you. I am sure Handl would not want his IP just floating around the open net.
Also they do have a modified BCG and spring.
If they modified the BCG and spring, in addition to the retainer plate and stock hinge assembly, then I could see that it would matter. Hence, one could make such claims. However, I have yet to see a evidence of a single military contract for Handl, or any evidence that his lowers or parts are being used by the US military. The same goes for Sgt Stryker's stuff over on the FN forum, and Hi-Desert Dog. Likewise, the US military has not released any data to the public to suggest that the purported issues of "lower receiver cracking" and "optics failure" due to the SCAR's design actually exist. I have to conclude then that my SCAR-17 rifle is not in need of a new lower receiver, and my as-issued FN magazines are just fine.
Mr. Handl isn't any more obliged to publish his technical data than FN, as few if any gun companies actually publish such info. My problem though is that Handl is making claims that essentially FN's millions of dollars spent on engineers and product R&D failed to develop a good lower receiver that can withstand the rigors of .308 abuse. When making such claims, a company should at the very least publicly demonstrate how their lower works and provide quantitative measurements for decrease stresses on optics and components. The Youtube videos posted don't really do that objectively.
I'm actually a medical doctor with a biomedical engineering degree from my college days. I don't work in the gun industry, and I haven't touched SolidEdge or Matlab in ten years. However, I do believe in evidence based medicine (EBM). I firmly believe that the principles of evidence based clinical science can be applied to gun, cars, etc. Handl's lower receiver and FN's purported SCAR issues are no different. I am not trying to start a flame war with anyone, but I am trying to be objective. As an owner of a SCAR-17, I would like to see data, info and publicly available information regarding these matters.
Thanks
understood I will see what I can do
MadAngler1, I too tend to be skeptical of claims that are made without hard numbers. I'm a computer scientist turned Exec now retired kinda guy, but there are certain things we do know that are incongruent. First, the Handl lower was originally marketed as a lower that could be used to convert the feed of the SCAR to use PMAGs (SR-25) mags instead of SCAR mags. I don't recall any mention of recoil modification.
Second, the whole analogy of the "fat bottom women" just doesn't ring and seems bass-ackwards. A stiff backing plate is going to transfer more recoil directly back to the shooter. One of the things I love about the SCAR is the less abrupt recoil, if I wanted it to shoot like an AR-10 I would have bought an AR-10 instead of two SCAR 17S. I've been pretty intimate with my 17 and I personally see controlled pairs being less about the stock, BCG, and action spring than I do about the muzzle device, good form, and practice.
Third, I really don't give a rat's ass if some optics and NV break, the optics and NV ought to be able to handle the SCAR recoil impulse. You don't muck with the rifle to keep the optics from breaking, you tell the optics makers to fix their optics. If the light on my motorcycle quits because it can't handle the vibration of the motorcycle you don't redesign the frick'en motorcycle.
Finally, to MadAngler's point. If it is such a large problem, why isn't FN on top of it. You'd think that if the problem were that large FN would be fearful of losing sales (Especially to the military) so they would jump in to fix the problem. Why is it that little Handl Defense is the only outfit that can do it? Doesn't make sense from an outside observer's view.
Look I will NEVER buy a lower so I can buy cheaper mags, mags are expendable. I've not had any problems with optics. The only interest I have in the stock hinge is the extra strength.
Sorry, but it is really hard to imagine Handl Defense out engineering FN. Maybe they can, but you'll have to prove it to me with more than the lame fat butt analogy and a couple of inconclusive videos.
Gents,
First, I will be a bit more careful as I know words have meaning. The intent of some of my words might have been misinterpreted, in particular the word "need".
Second, I will also try to refrain from the jocular responses. While effective in some circles, I can tell it will not work on the two of you. I might not ever convince you to consider their products. I think I can convince you as to why some will, and why some should.
Third, DR Angler, I also am a believer in evidence based medicine. I might not be in a position to access the data needed to scientifically prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But what I think I can do is when evaluating the preponderance of the body of evidence, be able to show a repeatable and consistent benefit. To then further show how this benefit comes from the difference in design changes.
I hope this conversation is much more of the continuous uninterrupted compressions vs. 15 compression followed by two breaths (indirectly proven by VF save rates and hospital discharges, yet subjective). Instead of pre-hospital lidocaine vs. amiodarone (a subjective cat fight in a trashcan).
I have to do some data collection, I hope you guys stay tuned.
Fox33, you'll post them here right? Or will you be only PMing the data you receive from Handl?
Certainly data posted here would help your case. I'm used to hearing all kinds of claims, as others do, but Fox33 you stuck your head out of the fox hole and asked for it. I'll be interested to see what you can produce.
Fox33,
Your language and claims remind me of an old-fashioned carnival barker, relying on flowery, polysyllabic vocabulary to disguise his lack of content. Nothing you said was very specific, and moreover would be difficult to prove through testing. Frankly nothing you posted tells me much aside from "Handl product good", and what you did say could have been conveyed in FAR fewer words. Are you trying to build credibility through technical jargon? Seems like a lot of flak to me. We're talking "padding a college essay-grade flak".
Also, it's clear you're associated with Handl, so maybe you should mention that in your signature going forward. Historically, this site hasn't been enthusiastic about shills.
1911
I have stated pretty consistently that I have advised them and done T&E for them. I not a paid employee, don't want any connotation, or impression, or even hint of conflict of interest with what I do for the military. But I'll add some signature information if you would like.
Everyone else,
I will talk to the guys at Handl Defense and see what they say, and what they will give me. I will post up whatever I get.
Facts rein supreme, IMO. I don't care for analogies of screwing fat chicks (I'll pass on that anyway) when it comes to figuring out my firearms.
YMMV.
I talked to Alan Handl today he said "I've been reverse engineered once, I am not going to offer the answers for free, no". I will prove all this on my own (a stressed trigger module and more rigid buttstock base plate) is better for the function of the SCAR.
00stormbringer
11-16-14, 08:34
I talked to Alan Handl today he said "I've been reverse engineered once, I am not going to offer the answers for free, no". I will prove all this on my own (a stressed trigger module and more rigid buttstock base plate) is better for the function of the SCAR.
Who's aftermarket SCAR 17 lower module is reverse engineered from Handl's?
Who's aftermarket SCAR 17 lower module is reverse engineered from Handl's?
Wondering the same thing
#1 I tried to convince Alan Handl again, no luck. So I am going to buy an accelerometer. I remember what I was shown, I will do my best to replicate it. I will post it up here.
#2 On the REV-engineering thing: Well look at that picture I attached. It is a screen shot of the email traffic (critical data blacked out) from the FBI in relation to what transpired on FNFourms. I don't want to clog this thread with that shitshow.
But you got a guy called by a rank he never earned, implied service in the USMC, has accusations of every kind of wrong donging (both criminal and civil) Who owns a business but freaks out when his name gets used in the open, then the FBI says this (take good look at the back end of those email addresses). So what is a principled man supposed to do? Why do you think I won't let it go?
If Bernie Madoff was managing your 401K and I knew it, wouldn't I be culpable if I said nothing. It is statistically possible I am wrong, but maybe the next time he calls my unit crying we can discuss it.
#3 Back on task, It will take me awhile to get this all sorted out. I am going to need some time to get the data all together.
00stormbringer
11-16-14, 12:57
The only after market SCAR 17 lower modules that I see for sale are:
Handl Defense:
http://handldefense.com/product/handl-defense-scar25/
Hi-desertdog LLC: ???
http://hi-desertdog.com/hdd-scar-10-lower-scar-17s-blk-complete.html
Cavalry Manufacturing: ???
http://www.cavmfg.com/SCAR-H-Billet-P-MAG-Compatible-Lower-SCARH.htm
Stryker Enterprises:??? Not yet released.
http://www.strykerenterprises.com/stryker.html
First of all how many magazines does the average person need for a SCAR?
Second, FN SCAR mags are top notch and very available now.
Spend that much $ on a lower to use different mags?
Why not just buy more FN mags and call it a day?
Yea the FN SCAR lower is plastic... but what battle situation is the common folk going to be in to even think you are going to break it under normal use?
I know I know... shit is going to hit the fan and Zombies are bound to come to eat our brains.
As far as any lower to enhance the weapons function, I'll have to wait and see proof of that.
00stormbringer
11-16-14, 15:45
First of all how many magazines does the average person need for a SCAR?
Second, FN SCAR mags are top notch and very available now.
Spend that much $ on a lower to use different mags?
Why not just buy more FN mags and call it a day?
Yea the FN SCAR lower is plastic... but what battle situation is the common folk going to be in to even think you are going to break it under normal use?
I know I know... shit is going to hit the fan and Zombies are bound to come to eat our brains.
As far as any lower to enhance the weapons function, I'll have to wait and see proof of that.
I'm with you; I want to see the scientific data before I replace a proven polymer lower with a heavier alloy one.
Seems to me that if Handl designed this product to improve function as described here, it would be something that would be advertised in conjunction with said product, not hidden away. I know that if I designed something to have a certain set of design improvements over on OEM unit I would want that info on display (advertising) in effort to convince the buying public to purchase my product.
IKEWarrior04
11-16-14, 20:27
ALCON,
This thread is to answer questions about how a stressed member trigger module (Handl) in conjunction with a metal hinge changes the function of a SCAR (mk.17/17s).
#1 If you can find slow motion video of a SCAR firing from say the 4-5 o'clock or 1-2 o'clock position. I suggest you watch it before delving in. While watching watch the flex of upper receiver while the gun cycles.
#2 What I understand from the Handl guys, is the compression of the recoil spring then impact of the BCG against the base plate of the buttstock is what they call an "elastic collision". Think about slapping ghetto booty, it jiggles. If she is thick enough and you slap hard enough, her back, gut and legs will jiggle a bit too.
Now go slap the ass of a chick who is a gymnast or cross fitter. It doesn't move, it absorbs the slap (recoil). The density of the material and its tighter construction means those jiggles (secondary recoil impulses that eat optics/nvgs) don't have anywhere the same intensity. While they do not disappear completely they are hard to notice.
#3 Going back to #1 the upper receiver is the only rigid part of the gun that actually deals with recoil and not very much. The back end of the gun is all polymer taking the hits of the BCG. The guide rod retaining plate actually can act like a springboard for recoil. The stock base plate being polymer does not help with efficient return spring action. The polymer trigger module does not put any reward pressure on the baseplate nor does any of the alloy replacement other than the Handl.
The back of a SCAR is Ghetto booty, loose and sloppy.
#4 The Handl trigger module puts rearward pressure on the guide rod retaining plate. It has some changes to the dimensions and thickness of certain parts. This is in order to make the distance between the take down pin in front and the guide rod retaining plate is fixed and more importantly has pressure against the retaining plate.
#5 The buttstock base plate flexes under recoil, it transmits some of the recoil into the gun that should be going into the spring. The Handl baseplate changes that. It allows the recoil spring to work more effectively and absorb the recoil. It reduces the secondary recoil impulses into the gun (which was killing optics and NVG's)
The back end of a Handl equipped SCAR is tight like a 18 year old girls gymnastics gold medalists butt.
look at the movement in the gun between the two videos
In video #1 watch at about 5 minutes smooth during controlled pairs, recoil is straight back and up. This gun WAS NOT equipped the a stock base plate. Which IMO goes a real long way in improving the recoil management. But the effect of having a stressed member trigger module will become real apparent after video two.
http://youtu.be/8GxwVicY8SI
In video #2 look at the flex and movement in the gun, no way an accurate controlled pair is gonna happen with that. Just replacing polymer with alloy, no real improvement.
http://youtu.be/h1Y4DNLPNWk
#6 I hope this information brings clarity for those who have asked.
FOX33,
In video #1 the SCAR17s equipped with a Handl trigger module had a FSC30 muzzle device which is a muzzle break
Video #2 the SCAR17s equipped with a Stryker Enterprises trigger module had a Surefire flash suppressor according to the description.
The claim is that the SCAR in video #1 has better recoil management than the SCAR in video #2 because the Handl trigger module is stressed and the Stryker Enterprises trigger module is not. You can not compare the recoil on the two weapons because of the muzzle break. Next time ask Alan Handl to do a video without the muzzle break. Only then can we truly compare the two and note the differences, if any at all.
Ohh, and while you're at it, suggest to him that he spell check and proof read what he allows on the Handl Defense Facebook page and website.
July Johnson
11-16-14, 21:03
The amount of alchemy in this thread is painful to read. No proof of a claim is showed and the reference to ghetto booty and how it is compared to recoil made me LOL. Watched the videos and black gun is a semi-automatic with a muzzle break installed and the brown one is a machine gun with a flash hider. The brown machine gun with the flash hider will not be as easy to shoot as the semi auto gun with a muzzle break. Muzzle break does more to tame recoil than a piece of aluminum between the stock and the gun. A lower, or stock plate made of aluminum does nothing to reduce gun recoil. If this guy says was true, every bolt action rifle would have butt pad made of aluminum instead of a plastic or rubber one. The side show comment is a great. Handle is home based. A simple Google search showed this. It's a house. Searched FN too and those places look like real companies. The same video showed the black rifle being shot into a red steel box bullet trap next to a laundry sink, in what looks like a basement. Another video looks like a garage with a parked motorcycle in the video.
July Johnson
11-16-14, 21:34
#1 I tried to convince Alan Handl again, no luck. So I am going to buy an accelerometer. I remember what I was shown, I will do my best to replicate it. I will post it up here.
#2 On the REV-engineering thing: Well look at that picture I attached. It is a screen shot of the email traffic (critical data blacked out) from the FBI in relation to what transpired on FNFourms. I don't want to clog this thread with that shitshow.
But you got a guy called by a rank he never earned, implied service in the USMC, has accusations of every kind of wrong donging (both criminal and civil) Who owns a business but freaks out when his name gets used in the open, then the FBI says this (take good look at the back end of those email addresses). So what is a principled man supposed to do? Why do you think I won't let it go?
If Bernie Madoff was managing your 401K and I knew it, wouldn't I be culpable if I said nothing. It is statistically possible I am wrong, but maybe the next time he calls my unit crying we can discuss it.
#3 Back on task, It will take me awhile to get this all sorted out. I am going to need some time to get the data all together.
Missed this.
Accelerometer can be bought for $20 on the internet. They don't do much good themselves so this looks like more sideshow. This guy calls himself a former marine? Accusations are one thing but has this guy been charged with any crime? Who rev-engineered the handle lower, this guy? It doesn't say in the picture. Just says based on the info that was sent to the FBI, it was rev-engineered.
#3 is going to be as funny as this.... looking forward to that stuff too.
July Johnson
11-16-14, 21:46
Company google search
http://companies.findthebest.com/l/31036481/Handl-Defense-Llc-in-Auburn-WA
Google map search
https://www.google.com/maps/place/11120+SE+295th+St,+Auburn,+WA+98092/@47.3380859,-122.192767,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x549058c5a7252c01:0x601e3d283fd1b7d5
Where are all the big machines at?
00stormbringer
11-16-14, 21:59
Company google search
http://companies.findthebest.com/l/31036481/Handl-Defense-Llc-in-Auburn-WA
Google map search
https://www.google.com/maps/place/11120+SE+295th+St,+Auburn,+WA+98092/@47.3380859,-122.192767,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x549058c5a7252c01:0x601e3d283fd1b7d5
Where are all the big machines at?
You learn something new every day. I quess the only "stessed member's" are the ones who have to file through the hard coat anodizing to get the Handl lowers to fit.
IKEWarrior04
11-16-14, 22:22
You learn something new every day. I quess the only "stessed member's" are the ones who have to file through the hard coat anodizing to get the Handl lowers to fit.
If the trigger module was designed to be tight, why wasn't that disclosed to consumers upon ordering? Customers got hit with a whole bunch of "Ohh, by the ways" that were addressed after the module hit the market by the ways of FAQs.
The module fitting tight, pmags not being optimal, the cerakoting having to be worn in.Why Cerakote over Hard Annodizing and not FDE hard anodizing BTW? Problem after problem showed up and soon Alan Handl disappeared and claimed its all FNForums fault. Well, the world is bigger than FNForums, Alan. We haven't heard from you since. Where are you and why won't you speak out on behalf of YOUR company?
Fox33, from the beginning of this discussion many points have been made regarding our skepticism of your claims (I'm not even sure if they are Handl's claims.). Since the beginning of this thread I, and others, have posed many questions and concerns to you. As yet you have failed to adequately answer them. Why did you start this thread if you are not prepared to answer tough questions?
If the claims you make are indeed Handl's claims, I'd think Handl would be clamoring to join this discussion to make the case and maybe sell some lowers. If Handl can make the case to this audience he might really have a product worth considering.
#1 Welcome July and IKE from FNFourms. This place is fair and equitable, and there are no favorites here. You will need to adjust to that.
#2 I will do testing with an accelerometer, to prove my case. So wait guys, I am sure the SEAL mod1 will be a stressed member as well, I am sure you'll like it then.
#3 So a guy does a video in his garage instead of the shop located in another state and that invalidates it?
#4 July- in reference to your comment about bolt action rifles with metal buttpads is as thin as your cover for action in here. AR rifles have a metal buffer tube, AK rifles have a metal guide rod, they are the part that absorbs recoil. They are not the part of the rifle that the shoulder indexes with, please try to keep up.
Now show any other 7.62 rifle that uses a polymer baseplate to act as the foundation of it's entire recoil system. Now show another 7.62 rifle that had NSWC crane say don't use these optics and PVS' on it because it will eat them. Now LOL all you want at my analogy, as it was meant for your level of intellect.
I did not want to get into the modulus of 7075 T6 vs magnesium vs polymer. Or to discuss how polymer's low modulus might amplify issues with the gun (the force of the recoil transmitted through low modulus items). The recoil must go somewhere, it does not just disappear. I do not think the compression of the BCG is going to ever reach the yield strength of Aluminum (6061 or 7075) under any condition.
(Disclaimer I am a medic by trade so sorry Engineering PhD's)
I have seen the buttstock baseplate fail during Handl's testing. There is a pic on their website just before one of them failed. It tells me that the recoil impulse can first of all reach the yield strength of the polymer under certain conditions. Which from what I remember they said is a compressive failure. That the load on the polymer has reached a point where the integrity of the surface of the polymer was was being diminished. That the stress and strain being a constant amount of force began the process of wearing that material down. That due to polymers elasticity that under heavy, rapid, loads that the elastic material was being stretched and being impacted while still under load, that this had a compounding effect over time. This eventually leads to failure and faster than alloy.
The Mk.16 was the main effort during design of the SCAR. The buttstock assembly is the same for either rifle. I think that when FN designed the gun, the recoil from the 5.56 round was not enough to give any inkling of what was to come. When the after thought of a 7.62x51 gun became the main effort things showed up that never did with the mk.16. While the hinge solves this mostly all on it is own the trigger module has a part to play.
From what I was told, that the upper receiver hinge plate also has a role in recoil impulses being transmitted back into the gun. That by keeping an alloy in a stressed member trigger module role had reduced this. I plan on proving all of this with information from the accelerometer I am ordering. I know this won't shut up the FNfourmastan pilgrims, but I hope others will find it useful.
If the trigger module was designed to be tight, why wasn't that disclosed to consumers upon ordering? Customers got hit with a whole bunch of "Ohh, by the ways" that were addressed after the module hit the market by the ways of FAQs.
The module fitting tight, pmags not being optimal, the cerakoting having to be worn in.Why Cerakote over Hard Annodizing and not FDE hard anodizing BTW? Problem after problem showed up and soon Alan Handl disappeared and claimed its all FNForums fault. Well, the world is bigger than FNForums, Alan. We haven't heard from you since. Where are you and why won't you speak out on behalf of YOUR company?
#1 The trigger module was designed to be tight-the instructions call for mating with a rubber mallet to index the trigger module and the receiver hinge plate from day 1.
#2 If you owned a company would you respond to every navy E3 who wanted to pick an internet fight. Alan did not disappear from FNFourms, he was removed by the "ownership". Why don't you get Jim "Stolen Valor" Elmazi in here and he can speak up for his actions. Or maybe he can just call my Company SGM and my SGM can pass me the message again.
#3 The only reason I am out here is I saw what happened. The guy who did it first, got ambushed by the guy who wanted to "win" and his entourage. Libel and Slander with intent to profit.
#4 This is an issue between Alan Handl and Jim Elmazi honestly, we should be letting their lawyers figure all this out. While you guys like posting up my name, rank, and unit in order to intimidate me into shutting up about what I saw. I am going to tell the truth, it's not illegal. Can't sue for deformation when its true, and I have FBI agents, the Illinois state police, the companies he attacked, and the ownership of the companies Elmazi was fired from.
so go back to FNfourms where the truth is what you make it
July Johnson
11-16-14, 23:34
I'll try to keep up.
#3 garage video from a big manufacturer?
#4 My DPMS 308 AR buffer tube is made out of aluminum and is a guide for the recoil spring. AR's have a hard rubbery piece on the back of the buffer to soften the hit when the buffer hits the inside of the tube. AK guide rod is a guide rod and guides the recoil spring. The carrier hits on the back of the inside of the receiver on that gun. AK's suck to shoot because of that and buffer tech came out with a rubbery buffer to stop that and it works. Sounds like you have it backwards. You are a medic that carried a SCAR in combat?
IKEWarrior04
11-16-14, 23:42
#1 Welcome July and IKE from FNFourms. This place is fair and equitable, and there are no favorites here. You will need to adjust to that.
#2 I will do testing with an accelerometer, to prove my case. So wait guys, I am sure the SEAL mod1 will be a stressed member as well, I am sure you'll like it then.
#3 So a guy does a video in his garage instead of the shop located in another state and that invalidates it?
#4 July- in reference to your comment about bolt action rifles with metal buttpads is as thin as your cover for action in here. AR rifles have a metal buffer tube, AK rifles have a metal guide rod, they are the part that absorbs recoil. They are not the part of the rifle that the shoulder indexes with, please try to keep up.
Now show any other 7.62 rifle that uses a polymer baseplate to act as the foundation of it's entire recoil system. Now show another 7.62 rifle that had NSWC crane say don't use these optics and PVS' on it because it will eat them. Now LOL all you want at my analogy, as it was meant for your level of intellect.
I did not want to get into the modulus of 7075 T6 vs magnesium vs polymer. Or to discuss how polymer's low modulus might amplify issues with the gun (the force of the recoil transmitted through low modulus items). The recoil must go somewhere, it does not just disappear. I do not think the compression of the BCG is going to ever reach the yield strength of Aluminum (6061 or 7075) under any condition.
(Disclaimer I am a medic by trade so sorry Engineering PhD's)
I have seen the buttstock baseplate fail during Handl's testing. There is a pic on their website just before one of them failed. It tells me that the recoil impulse can first of all reach the yield strength of the polymer under certain conditions. Which from what I remember they said is a compressive failure. That the load on the polymer has reached a point where the integrity of the surface of the polymer was was being diminished. That the stress and strain being a constant amount of force began the process of wearing that material down. That due to polymers elasticity that under heavy, rapid, loads that the elastic material was being stretched and being impacted while still under load, that this had a compounding effect over time. This eventually leads to failure and faster than alloy.
The Mk.16 was the main effort during design of the SCAR. The buttstock assembly is the same for either rifle. I think that when FN designed the gun, the recoil from the 5.56 round was not enough to give any inkling of what was to come. When the after thought of a 7.62x51 gun became the main effort things showed up that never did with the mk.16. While the hinge solves this mostly all on it is own the trigger module has a part to play.
From what I was told, that the upper receiver hinge plate also has a role in recoil impulses being transmitted back into the gun. That by keeping an alloy in a stressed member trigger module role had reduced this. I plan on proving all of this with information from the accelerometer I am ordering. I know this won't shut up the FNfourmastan pilgrims, but I hope others will find it useful.
Thanks for the welcome. You still haven't directly answered my question. You/ Handl are claiming that the SCAR25 reduces recoil as per "Video #1 because of the stresses lower. that SCAR had a muzzle break on it. The SEAL MK2 was on a SCAR that did not have a muzzle beak on the rifle. You cannot say that the SCAR25 reduces recoil whereas the SEAL MK2 doesn't by those videos. Tell Handl to remove the muzzle break, hell he can leave it off! Thats what Stryker Enterprises did with their MK4 SEAL and with a 13" barrel and the shooter put 23 out of 25 shots in the blue. There have been no videos of targets form Handl defense. No end user videos. Just a bunch of marketing agencies based out of washington. Where are the proud owners of the SCAR 25? Where are the range days and target pictures? What about the videos people like to make of shooting their SCAR 25? Where are they?What about that new stock hinge...where are the proud owners of those.After 1 month not a review picture or anything? That is strange. It would appear on Facebook that it is a popular product. Like I said, the internet is bigger than FNForums
You ever watch a golf ball compress against a metal golf club? It compresses and gets propelled forward....FAR! You ever wonder why aluminum bats are banned in the major leagues? I would think that the plastic recoil spring plate will do the same thing when impacting a metal stock hinge, compress the plastic recoil spring retainer. Also with more energy being returned to the recoil spring and the bolt carrier, wouldn't the secondary recoil forces be greater with an aluminum hinge?
By the way, where is the manufacturing of the SCAR25 and other Handl Defense products done and shipped out of? Is the basement of handls house the stock room as well as shipping and receiving
You keep claiming illegal activity. Where is the documentation of these crimes. Wheres the FBI, ISP and statements from his old employer?
E-3,Nah, Im still an E-2, but i will be soon!
Seems to me that if Handl designed this product to improve function as described here, it would be something that would be advertised in conjunction with said product, not hidden away. I know that if I designed something to have a certain set of design improvements over on OEM unit I would want that info on display (advertising) in effort to convince the buying public to purchase my product.
It's not unheard of in the firearms industry.
Bobro is considered one of the best QD mounts, yet this is the description on their site:
"DESIGN FEATURES
The Precision Optic Mount features the Patented [US Patent 8,567,105] BLAC™ lever system which was designed around the following parameters:
...
There were others, but by listing them we would compromise our trade secrets."
jello booty metaphor, really.. wow
A respectable tract would be to qualify ones statements. Perhaps meter G-forces, peak and sustained, and align results with a requirement or theory.
Snake oil booty rub solution perhaps good for marketing hype, but not for a discussion forum where informed person will want legitimate answers.
Gents,
What we have just witnessed is the MO of FnFourms. See there is one guy who is the center of gravity there, all worship him or are banished. When a competitor shows up (non-believer) or one of their supporters (apostates) the "ayatollah" sends the hit squad.
I made an assertion as to a benefit that required in depth explaining. In the processes of trying to explain the benefits to people with real questions. Two of these FNfourmastan "republican guards" show up and muddy the waters. It become hard to tell what is what, and that is the desired endstate. If you don't trust me I would talk to IWC, CAV, and better yet Dave Silvaggio of DSA about Jim Elmazi's tricks.
If you have a company that is paying to be a sponsor here I would pay acute attention to what just happened. Sure they will join the site and lavish others with pleasantries, until the time is right. There is a reason I equate them with Jihadi's.
jello booty metaphor, really.. wow.
I was trying to be funny but it didn't work. Even though watching the SCAR fire FA under slow motion does make you think it.
When it comes to the data you suggested that is what I am going to do. The company in question is not going to let me have their data. So I ordered up an accelerometer and will get after it.
July Johnson
11-17-14, 09:54
Gents,
What we have just witnessed is
You being served.
Now it's time to support your claims without any carnival barker jargon. Want you to answer the questions, and explain yourself in detail? Please do. Looks like any member here who asks you for proof is called a Muslim extremist. Still want to stick to your statement on the steel AK recoil spring guide rod absorbing recoil, or do we get more colorful ghetto booty commentary. Don't throw sand, at the other kids playing in the sandbox; everyone just gets covered in sand and cat poop.
I was always under the assumption that the damaging vibrations of the Scar platform were because of the mass of it's heavy, lengthy carrier smashing against the front of the receiver. Not the characteristics of it's recoil assembly. it seems to me this debate is at the wrong end of the gun.
IKEWarrior04
11-17-14, 10:26
Gents,
What we have just witnessed is the MO of FnFourms. See there is one guy who is the center of gravity there, all worship him or are banished. When a competitor shows up (non-believer) or one of their supporters (apostates) the "ayatollah" sends the hit squad.
I made an assertion as to a benefit that required in depth explaining. In the processes of trying to explain the benefits to people with real questions. Two of these FNfourmastan "republican guards" show up and muddy the waters. It become hard to tell what is what, and that is the desired endstate. If you don't trust me I would talk to IWC, CAV, and better yet Dave Silvaggio of DSA about Jim Elmazi's tricks.
If you have a company that is paying to be a sponsor here I would pay acute attention to what just happened. Sure they will join the site and lavish others with pleasantries, until the time is right. There is a reason I equate them with Jihadi's.
I don't know what you're talking about. I am here under my own free will. Jim Elmazi does not tell me what to do. I have no business relationship to him.Hell, I've never even met the guy! Have i bought products from him? Yes, and they work as advertised. I support him just like you do with Handl, but I do it without insulting others with talks of "Ayatollahs, Islamists, and Jihadists".
I came over from FNForums to point out those two videos you cited comparing the two trigger modules attached to SCARs have different muzzle devices. A direct question to you that you can't or are unwilling to answer. And while i was at it, point out that Handl sucks at proofreading what goes on his Website and the fact that we haven't heard a peep from anyone who has bought a stock hinge.
00stormbringer
11-17-14, 10:45
I would just like some accurate information on aftermarket replacement parts for my SCAR. Claims of increased performance without providing actual supporting evidence is just marketing hype to sell products. If the polymer lower module & stock hinge were being damaged during use, the internet would be littered with photos and first hand accounts of the issues. It's not like the SCAR platform is untested and new to the market.
July Johnson
11-17-14, 10:58
I would just like some accurate information on aftermarket replacement parts for my SCAR. Claims of increased performance without providing actual supporting evidence is just marketing hype to sell products. If the polymer lower module & stock hinge were being damaged during use, the internet would be littered with photos and first hand accounts of the issues. It's not like the SCAR platform is untested and new to the market.
Not sure if we'll ever get a straight answer from this guy. Looks like he's good at skirting questions and resorts to finger pointing instead of answering questions. For somebody who likes to use big words like modulus it should be easy for him. Instead we got some look at this and talk to that guy about a fire breathing monster on another forum. This guy is doing what he claimed the other guy did. Makes him look bad to me and doesn't help handle at all.
Well
Like I said I need to wait for the accelerometers to get here before I can bypass the subjective. As all we have is our opinions, be it what I saw during Handl's testing, what I was told, or what I witnessed at FN fourms. There is no method, mechanism, or process, by which one can project their own subjective knowledge onto another person. All I can do is say what I saw, it is up to the receiver of the information to determine if that information has value or if it does not.
I say the stressed member trigger module on a SCAR has value. As I said to the Dr. before, I am not trying to convince you to buy their stuff, but to show why some should.
While I was trying to back up my point with objective information or rudimentary engineering theory we had a hijacking by the FNFourm types who came here to do what they do best. Cloud the situation and discredit the opposition before the person who is a threat can explain his side clearly.
BTW I say again, never paid by or an employee of handl. I have only dealt with them as an adviser and to show the Force Modernization guys what I thought was a good idea.
I will get the accelerometers and go about proving my point. July and Ike you can go back to FNFourms and wait the evidence will be here. I never say a thing I cant prove, as I expect it all to be brought back up, in court or not.
I have no fear of speaking the truth.
IKEWarrior04
11-17-14, 11:50
Fox33,
If what has been claimed by Handl Defense is true, Alan Handl should have NO problem making a statement confirming the validity of the claims of recoil reduction. I don't want to hear from you. I want to hear from Alan Handl. We ALL want to hear from Alan Handl. I challenge him to come forward as the owner of Handl Defense regarding the validity of the recoil reduction of his products.
ALCON,
This thread is to answer questions about how a stressed member trigger module (Handl) in conjunction with a metal hinge changes the function of a SCAR (mk.17/17s).
#1 If you can find slow motion video of a SCAR firing from say the 4-5 o'clock or 1-2 o'clock position. I suggest you watch it before delving in. While watching watch the flex of upper receiver while the gun cycles.
#2 What I understand from the Handl guys, is the compression of the recoil spring then impact of the BCG against the base plate of the buttstock is what they call an "elastic collision". Think about slapping ghetto booty, it jiggles. If she is thick enough and you slap hard enough, her back, gut and legs will jiggle a bit too.
Now go slap the ass of a chick who is a gymnast or cross fitter. It doesn't move, it absorbs the slap (recoil). The density of the material and its tighter construction means those jiggles (secondary recoil impulses that eat optics/nvgs) don't have anywhere the same intensity. While they do not disappear completely they are hard to notice.
#3 Going back to #1 the upper receiver is the only rigid part of the gun that actually deals with recoil and not very much. The back end of the gun is all polymer taking the hits of the BCG. The guide rod retaining plate actually can act like a springboard for recoil. The stock base plate being polymer does not help with efficient return spring action. The polymer trigger module does not put any reward pressure on the baseplate nor does any of the alloy replacement other than the Handl.
The back of a SCAR is Ghetto booty, loose and sloppy.
#4 The Handl trigger module puts rearward pressure on the guide rod retaining plate. It has some changes to the dimensions and thickness of certain parts. This is in order to make the distance between the take down pin in front and the guide rod retaining plate is fixed and more importantly has pressure against the retaining plate.
#5 The buttstock base plate flexes under recoil, it transmits some of the recoil into the gun that should be going into the spring. The Handl baseplate changes that. It allows the recoil spring to work more effectively and absorb the recoil. It reduces the secondary recoil impulses into the gun (which was killing optics and NVG's)
The back end of a Handl equipped SCAR is tight like a 18 year old girls gymnastics gold medalists butt.
look at the movement in the gun between the two videos
In video #1 watch at about 5 minutes smooth during controlled pairs, recoil is straight back and up. This gun WAS NOT equipped the a stock base plate. Which IMO goes a real long way in improving the recoil management. But the effect of having a stressed member trigger module will become real apparent after video two.
http://youtu.be/8GxwVicY8SI
In video #2 look at the flex and movement in the gun, no way an accurate controlled pair is gonna happen with that. Just replacing polymer with alloy, no real improvement.
http://youtu.be/h1Y4DNLPNWk
#6 I hope this information brings clarity for those who have asked.
You are comparing apples to oranges in those videos!! One has a PBS Brake on it and the other has a Flash Hider QD mount for a suppressor. without the same muzzle brake on there you are not doing a true comparison of recoil. You can stack the deck all you want in your favor when it comes down to it it just makes someone look worse when general 9 gunsmith people can even recognize that the comparison is not equal..
IKEWarrior04
11-17-14, 12:00
Well
Like I said I need to wait for the accelerometers to get here before I can bypass the subjective. As all we have is our opinions, be it what I saw during Handl's testing, what I was told, or what I witnessed at FN fourms. There is no method, mechanism, or process, by which one can project their own subjective knowledge onto another person. All I can do is say what I saw, it is up to the receiver of the information to determine if that information has value or if it does not.
I say the stressed member trigger module on a SCAR has value. As I said to the Dr. before, I am not trying to convince you to buy their stuff, but to show why some should.
While I was trying to back up my point with objective information or rudimentary engineering theory we had a hijacking by the FNFourm types who came here to do what they do best. Cloud the situation and discredit the opposition before the person who is a threat can explain his side clearly.
BTW I say again, never paid by or an employee of handl. I have only dealt with them as an adviser and to show the Force Modernization guys what I thought was a good idea.
I will get the accelerometers and go about proving my point. July and Ike you can go back to FNFourms and wait the evidence will be here. I never say a thing I cant prove, as I expect it all to be brought back up, in court or not.
I have no fear of speaking the truth.
look at the movement in the gun between the two videos
In video #1 watch at about 5 minutes smooth during controlled pairs, recoil is straight back and up. This gun WAS NOT equipped the a stock base plate. Which IMO goes a real long way in improving the recoil management. But the effect of having a stressed member trigger module will become real apparent after video two.
http://youtu.be/8GxwVicY8SI
In video #2 look at the flex and movement in the gun, no way an accurate controlled pair is gonna happen with that. Just replacing polymer with alloy, no real improvement.
http://youtu.be/h1Y4DNLPNWk
Remember this? The recoil is lower on the Handl equipped scar because of the muzzle break. Not because of a trigger module that has been jammed into the receiver back plate. Ohh, Im sorry because it is now a "stressed member."
How is it a stressed member when you can load the gun, remove the trigger module and still fire the gun?
You can't do that with the M-16.
July Johnson
11-17-14, 12:03
I say the stressed member trigger module on a SCAR has value.
You say so. And you're a medic who carried a scar in combat. That qualifies you as being and advisor to handle in his garage?
Welcome everyone from FNForums... glad you guys could make it
So once again wait until I get the accelerometers and prove my point objectively.
IKEWarrior04
11-17-14, 13:09
Welcome everyone from FNForums... glad you guys could make it
So once again wait until I get the accelerometers and prove my point objectively.
Looking forward to it. Test it on the same weapon and make sure you show the serial number of the weapon before each test. Make sure the ammo is the same too! EVERYTHING the SAME except the Trigger modules and stock knuckle. Ohh and FOX33, if you don't follow through with this.. Don't come back stating these claims. EVER!
Digital_Damage
11-17-14, 13:35
The sheer number of butt hurt SCAR fan boys in this thread is epic.
"Nothing wrong with the SCAR, it is a perfect as perfect can get"... geezzzz
How are the people from FNForums even finding this thread? Do they constantly search for stuff like this, or was this cross posted? Or a sort of "raid"?
Digital_Damage
11-17-14, 15:04
How are the people from FNForums even finding this thread? Do they constantly search for stuff like this, or was this cross posted? Or a sort of "raid"?
LOL no idea, but signing up an account just to post 8 times in a single thread seems seems desperate.
#1 I tried to convince Alan Handl again, no luck. So I am going to buy an accelerometer. I remember what I was shown, I will do my best to replicate it. I will post it up here.
#2 On the REV-engineering thing: Well look at that picture I attached. It is a screen shot of the email traffic (critical data blacked out) from the FBI in relation to what transpired on FNFourms. I don't want to clog this thread with that shitshow.
But you got a guy called by a rank he never earned, implied service in the USMC, has accusations of every kind of wrong donging (both criminal and civil) Who owns a business but freaks out when his name gets used in the open, then the FBI says this (take good look at the back end of those email addresses). So what is a principled man supposed to do? Why do you think I won't let it go?
If Bernie Madoff was managing your 401K and I knew it, wouldn't I be culpable if I said nothing. It is statistically possible I am wrong, but maybe the next time he calls my unit crying we can discuss it.
#3 Back on task, It will take me awhile to get this all sorted out. I am going to need some time to get the data all together.
That screen shot of an Email reply does not mean S**T!!! I can send an Email to local FBI or ATF and get that EXACT same response from them!! So what does it prove??? Like everyone here is asking show us so.ething worthwhile instead of throwing S**T in another's face with nothing to back it up.
If Alan Handl was as worried about it as you are he would be on here putting down facts instead of having his Gopher on here laying down BS and Half A**ED BS...
If he is not paying you he should be the amount of time you are on here trying to convince people why his product is superior to XYZ...
Let's See some facts, not BS..
Damn Chief what did you start?
Digital_Damage
11-17-14, 16:23
That screen shot of an Email reply does not mean S**T!!! I can send an Email to local FBI or ATF and get that EXACT same response from them!! So what does it prove??? Like everyone here is asking show us so.ething worthwhile instead of throwing S**T in another's face with nothing to back it up.
If Alan Handl was as worried about it as you are he would be on here putting down facts instead of having his Gopher on here laying down BS and Half A**ED BS...
If he is not paying you he should be the amount of time you are on here trying to convince people why his product is superior to XYZ...
Let's See some facts, not BS..
How about you prove that is does not help?
IKEWarrior04
11-17-14, 16:23
I'm going to laugh if the stock hinge actually increases secondary recoil forces.
How about you prove that is does not help?
X 10! Along with half the other posts on this thread.
I say just let the guy try and prove his point... damn.
If so great...if not oh well... I won't be trading in my SCAR either way.
While we're at it... might as well argue over inventing the wheel again.
Welcome everyone from FNForums... glad you guys could make it
So once again wait until I get the accelerometers and prove my point objectively.
Talk and Empty Promises are cheap. When someone across any Forums brings up S
some BULLSH*T like a Stressed Member or Some Phantom Baseplate That Prevents it, YEAH, it gets around fast!!
As we say Proof In Pictures or Video or it never happened.. As of Right NOW it never happened!!
Just what is your gizmo supposed to prove??
How come it takes a MINI SLEDGE HAMMER to put that lower together in that video posted of the Grand u opening of that black SCAR 17? ? You know, the "Zombies are coming" green one??
Related:
As the owner of a SCAR17 I am often very surprised by the number of comments I see about it being a "light" recoiling rifle.
Balderdash!
Its recoil characteristics are not pleasant and anyone who thinks otherwise probably lacks experience and/or perspective.
Its light weight alone, doesn't make it very "likely" to be light recoiling, when compared to similar, heavier rifles from other companies. It probably doesn't help that it has that massive bolt thing clanging back and forth after every shot and the polymer probably does flex more than a rifle that doesn't use as much polymer.
Heck, how many polymer lower AR's do you see being built for "serious" use? By my reading its pretty much heresy to suggest using one, yet somehow the SCAR is different? :)
The recoil of MY SCAR17 is worse than any other .308 or 30-06 in my safe, including my bolt rifles. Granted, it isn't bad enough to force me to run out and replace my polymer lower, after all, it is only a .308. However, its unpleasantness to shoot, combined with its so-so accuracy, is enough to make me not really want to shoot it a lot.
I spend a lot of time loading rounds for accuracy and it seems such a waste to send them down range in my SCAR17. My SCAR IS black though and I've read they aren't quite as accurate as the FDE models! :)
I do like it for its light weight and will be keeping it for that reason, in addition to its uniqueness.
I think there are too many people who get upset over silly little things that really don't matter a lot in the scheme of things. After all, no-one is being forced to replace their SCAR lower.
ETA: YMMV and IMBCFOS
How are the people from FNForums even finding this thread? Do they constantly search for stuff like this, or was this cross posted? Or a sort of "raid"?
Before today I didn't even know there was a FN forum so doubly so.
Related:
As the owner of a SCAR17 I am often very surprised by the number of comments I see about it being a "light" recoiling rifle.
Balderdash!
Its recoil characteristics are not pleasant and anyone who thinks otherwise probably lacks experience and/or perspective.
Its light weight alone, doesn't make it very "likely" to be light recoiling, when compared to similar, heavier rifles from other companies. It probably doesn't help that it has that massive bolt thing clanging back and forth after every shot and the polymer probably does flex more than a rifle that doesn't use as much polymer.
Heck, how many polymer lower AR's do you see being built for "serious" use? By my reading its pretty much heresy to suggest using one, yet somehow the SCAR is different? :)
The recoil of MY SCAR17 is worse than any other .308 or 30-06 in my safe, including my bolt rifles. Granted, it isn't bad enough to force me to run out and replace my polymer lower, after all, it is only a .308. However, its unpleasantness to shoot, combined with its so-so accuracy, is enough to make me not really want to shoot it a lot.
I spend a lot of time loading rounds for accuracy and it seems such a waste to send them down range in my SCAR17. My SCAR IS black though and I've read they aren't quite as accurate as the FDE models! :)
I do like it for its light weight and will be keeping it for that reason, in addition to its uniqueness.
I think there are too many people who get upset over silly little things that really don't matter a lot in the scheme of things. After all, no-one is being forced to replace their SCAR lower.
ETA: YMMV and IMBCFOS
I bet your 15# MR762 (Not HK 417 as you like to call it, As There are Only 2 Genuine 417 Uppers In civilian Hands as I know where BOTH RESIDE at this very moment) does have a little less recoil. I have shot an MR762, LWRC REPR, and others and I had no problem with the Recoil at all, lighter gun more recoil, is it that bad?? If it kills your optic, I would not trust that optic with my life.. Oh yeah, that Reminds Me, for being so light and having a thin Chrome lined barrel it beats both the MR762 and the LWRC REPR in accuracy.
I have not had a single problem with the Recoil, shooting any carbine 7.62 in FA with put everyone but the best trigger pullers in the world to the test and they have no problem with the SCAR 17..
Unexperienced guy shot and hit steal first time out at 650 yards with a CQC 13" Barrel the other day!! What other battle carbine could someone accomplish that with??
We have been asking for hard DATA, instead everyone is a Jihadist, Haji, or an Ayatollah.. Please, that is little kiddy name calling!!! This is what proves BS to me, any true professional SF operator does not come on a forum and admit that they are SF let alone call people names like a little girl!!! ( I am NOT SF)
People trip or are turned onto other Forums daily.. Doesn't take a Rockett scientist to figure that out!! How do you know what is going on on FNF unless you are over there reading it??
Ohhh Snap, I almost forgot!! Do you know the real reason HK teamed up with OSS?? You ever know of HK taking on a Startup suppressor company who has not proved themselves??
1st, I am an avid HK 416 collector and have the proof of just how much of a 416 collector I am (the real deal by the way, not that MR??? Whatever they call them)
HK's lowers have been cracking, "NO NOT HK" you say.. Better ask someone who knows.. Hence the need for an overly sophisticated, unsurprising, Back Pressure Reduction Thingy.. Happens to the best of them..
Interesting thread on several different levels.
First off, in my experience the SCAR17S has a very low and very manageable recoil with PWS brake on it and the recoil dynamics are not a major issue in slow, semi auto operation.
Fox33 is correct that the basic SCAR design lacks rigidity, especially torsional rigidity in the back end of the receiver. This can cause some interesting dynamic effects in full auto or rapid multi shot semi auto.
Going to a more rigid lower receiver and hinge, combined with tighter tolerances and a preload on the lower receiver / buffer plate -hinge interface has a very realistic potential to stiffen up the aft portion of the receiver and modify the load paths to a degree that it modifies the system dynamics enough to mitigate various components of the recoil impulse and also potentially reduce deflections under fire.
I know the guys at Handl are not the most popular of people on the FNForum for a number of reasons, but that does not mean they cannot come up with some real product improvements for the SCAR.
Let's let their products speak for themselves. If the system works as advertised, then it works - simple as that. If they get the job done, more power to them.
Frankly, in my opinion, the alloy hinge system has value regardless of it's merits for recoil mitigation. I have had a lack of confidence in the SCAR folding butt stock system since I had a hinge latch break on a SCAR taking it out of the box. If fairness, it was an early production model and there was a bad batch of out of spec latches early on, FN replaced the out of spec part free of cost, and there have been no problems since .
I'm EXTREMELY impressed with the carbon fiber hand guards which solve a very real heating issue with the SCAR, add rail space and do seem to be weight neutral which preserves the SCAR light weight. I'm rather familiar with carbon composites and it looks like Handl did the job right from start to finish on this project and came up with a very nice product.
Recoil has not been a issue for me with the SCAR and I'm fine with FN mags so I'm not sure the Handl alloy magnesium lower makes any sense for me one way or the other, but if the Handl system works as advertised for recoil mitigation and allows for the reliable use of lighter weight polymer mags that are compatible with other AR based 7.62 semi auto systems in use for cross platform mag commonality , the Handl products could be a very valuable upgrade for military end users and others who care about such things.
I have no trouble believing that Handl is working with SOCOM in some capacity to supply product improvements for the SCAR, if for no other reason than the tooling cost investment for the composite handguards only makes economic sense if there are military orders in the pipeline.
Once again, if their products work - more power to them.
FWIW, I'm not sure the reference to Sgt Stryker on FNForums constitutes impersonating a military non com is a valid criticism. For the record, Sgt Stryker was a fictional Marine Corps character played by John Wayne in the 1949 WWII flick "Sands of Iwo Jima" so I seriously doubt there is any intent to deceive going on there unless any FBI investigators seriously lack a sense of humor (which is entirely possible).
Just sayin'
I look forward to the results of any instrumented testing, but really the only truly valid test is end user back to back tested performance improvement and end user product acceptance.
In the interests of full disclosure, I have no connection to Handl, FNForum or Sgt Stryker and I don't take myself very seriously so feel free to do the same.
Digital_Damage
11-18-14, 06:47
Before today I didn't even know there was a FN forum so doubly so.
Well, if the people that have come over are any indication of the members, that forum is full of short tempered impatient douchebags. The OP said he would try to prove is point by purchasing the equipment out of pocket, the least they can do is quit being a bunch of assholes and wait for him to do his testing.
If it fails then jump him, otherwise they should STFU for awhile.
Digital_Damage
11-18-14, 06:56
I bet your 15# MR762 (Not HK 417 as you like to call it, As There are Only 2 Genuine 417 Uppers In civilian Hands as I know where BOTH RESIDE at this very moment) does have a little less recoil. I have shot an MR762, LWRC REPR, and others and I had no problem with the Recoil at all, lighter gun more recoil, is it that bad?? If it kills your optic, I would not trust that optic with my life.. Oh yeah, that Reminds Me, for being so light and having a thin Chrome lined barrel it beats both the MR762 and the LWRC REPR in accuracy.
I have not had a single problem with the Recoil, shooting any carbine 7.62 in FA with put everyone but the best trigger pullers in the world to the test and they have no problem with the SCAR 17..
Unexperienced guy shot and hit steal first time out at 650 yards with a CQC 13" Barrel the other day!! What other battle carbine could someone accomplish that with??
We have been asking for hard DATA, instead everyone is a Jihadist, Haji, or an Ayatollah.. Please, that is little kiddy name calling!!! This is what proves BS to me, any true professional SF operator does not come on a forum and admit that they are SF let alone call people names like a little girl!!! ( I am NOT SF)
People trip or are turned onto other Forums daily.. Doesn't take a Rockett scientist to figure that out!! How do you know what is going on on FNF unless you are over there reading it??
WTF are you talking about? Do you even have any idea how encompassing the Special Forces is, how many members there are? They have normal lives, they are regular people and they do things just like you and I do. One sat next to me at the Football game last week, just like he does every week he is in town. You are coming across like a huge idiot.
You are coming across like a huge idiot.
Ya think? :) I took it as him trying to sincerely validate my post about people getting too upset about this stuff, even to the point of jumping to irrational conclusions and making stuff up on the fly.
July Johnson
11-18-14, 13:32
Fox33 makes a lot of claims like handle bringing everything in house after some early issues. A google search turns up a home based business with a small garage with a low door that can't fit a big machine in. When asked to explain this, he ignored the question and says the AK recoil spring guide rod reduces recoil. ???? Fox33 says the lower reduces recoil on a SCAR and when people a lot smarter than me started asking him to prove it he said something about ghetto booties. Fox33 says he's a medic and he advises handle on stuff? Hmmm? Calling people liars isn't good and don't know if he's doing this to make himself look important or if he's put up to it but its wrong.
http://www.bbb.org/western-washington/business-reviews/guns-and-gunsmiths/handl-defense-in-auburn-wa-22943230
https://www.google.com/maps/place/11120+SE+295th+St,+Auburn,+WA+98092/@47.3380859,-122.192767,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x549058c5a7252c01:0x601e3d283fd1b7d5
It's very clear to me IKE, there are no answers to unfounded problems!! Maybe "FOX33" can find a cure for Ghetto Booty?? FOX, you would solve that faster with an accelerometer then you will prove a stressed member.
Somebody call 911!!! Holy crapledo Batman!! No big machine in the garage!! We gotta do somethin about this quick!
To the Batmobile!
Does anyone know where the Handl Defense store front is at?? Google Earth keep showing me a house in a residential neighborhood? ? Please do not tell me it is in the basement next to the laundry room?? I mean, if That is the case, is it legal??
Digital_Damage
11-18-14, 13:56
Because no successful business ever started in a garage right?
Because no successful business ever started in a garage right?
I think he was taking the phrase "in house" too literally lol.
Digital_Damage
11-18-14, 14:00
I think he was taking the phrase "in house" too literally lol.
LOL! nice.
July Johnson
11-18-14, 14:03
smoke? mirrors? no. never. not from fox33
Shooting guns in a neighborhood, Weather bullet trap or not, legal or illegal?? Let's go find out..
I think he was taking the phrase "in house" too literally lol.
Everything good must come from a billion dollar machine right? lol
July Johnson
11-18-14, 14:07
Because no successful business ever started in a garage right?
Successful, yes. How does this fit with a stressed member and ghetto booties?
July Johnson
11-18-14, 14:09
Everything good must come from a billion dollar machine right? lol
It helps. Better then a $50 tactical rubber mallet.
Digital_Damage
11-18-14, 14:10
Successful, yes. How does this fit with a stressed member and ghetto booties?
Not sure, but what I mostly take away from this train wreck is there are two douchebags that go around trolling a guy before he has had a chance to prove anything.
It helps. Better then a $50 tactical rubber mallet.
I'm sure the lower was carved out using a rubber mallet. Good point.
It was put together with one in that video...LOL
00stormbringer
11-18-14, 14:29
Did anyone read the BBB complaint?
http://www.bbb.org/western-washington/business-reviews/guns-and-gunsmiths/handl-defense-in-auburn-wa-22943230/complaints
I sent Handl my existing lower and internals and paid extra for their parts swap service and warranty. The lower I received did not function or fit as advertised. When I began the exchange process is when the customer service levels dropped and communication became very difficult.
None of the mags drop free when the releases are pressed, they have to be removed manually. Unlike the original mags in the original lower, they drop free when the release is pressed
As my notes below and our previous conversation noted, I also had other problems with the magnesium lower, the 16th inch gap at the barrel lug, the 32nd inch gap between the upper and lower, the loose fitting lower basically flopping around, mags not seating, not dropping free, excessive wear on a supposedly new lower, etc, etc.
It was put together with one in that video...LOL
It was assembled with one yes, big deal... you ever watched a gunsmith? Some use rubber mallets others may use leather rawhide mallets for assembly. Does not have anything to do with how the parts are made. LOL
July Johnson
11-18-14, 14:38
It was assembled with one yes, big deal... you ever watched a gunsmith? Some use rubber mallets others may use leather rawhide mallets for assembly. Does not have anything to do with how the parts are made. LOL
No, but the fn SCAR lower doesn't need to be hammered on to fit and it does work fine. Parts that aren't made right need hammering.
July Johnson
11-18-14, 14:41
Not sure, but what I mostly take away from this train wreck is there are two douchebags that go around trolling a guy before he has had a chance to prove anything.
And a guy who thinks it's okay to lie to people about a lot of stuff.
And a guy who thinks it's okay to lie to people about a lot of stuff.
Innocent until proven guilty
The sheer number of butt hurt SCAR fan boys in this thread is epic.
I can't agree more
July Johnson
11-18-14, 15:11
Innocent until proven guilty
fox33 said handle brought everything in house. Google search proved different. He can explain it himself. Where is he anyway? He started this thread and left after a few questions were asked of him. He can answer for himself.
fox33 said handle brought everything in house. Google search proved different. He can explain it himself. Where is he anyway? He started this thread and left after a few questions were asked of him. He can answer for himself.
Maybe he's in a garage somewhere that doesn't have big machines trying to accomplish something that you insist on bitching about.
Are you in the market to buy a lower for your SCAR?
I'm not... and I'm also not going to thrash on someone for trying to proceed with any kind of an improvement on anything, wether it's from a garage or a multi million dollar facility.
A tree starts from a seed.
#1 I have been in contact with a few accelerometer makers and I am having a small issue finding one that meets the requirements (small enough to fit in the gun, USB, Windows software, +/- 100G's, and not to expensive) SUPROCK looks promising. Alan Handl is not letting me borrow his. Plus I want to get ahold the right kind of camera as well, I know someone with a highspeed camera, trying to coordinate that as well.
#2 FNFourms guys, I am not going to engage your questions. It's like playing black in chess. You wait for the other guy to move then you get to counter. Considering there are what 6 of you at last count, why bother. We all know how you feel. Plus Mark Twain said it best.
#3 The reason the FNFourms guys are here is that I have effectively communicated a compilation of what others have being saying. This is a threat to Jim Elmazi, Therefore they are here trying to do here, what they do there. Intimidate, obfuscate, targeted contrived support, and suppression of opinions in order to enable the "victory" of their guy.
It's real simple I am just communicating what others have said
a guy with company who hides the use of his name? ...odd... but that is between him and his customers, debtors, creditors, etc
then he has a screen name that implies military service and a rank. He never served a day, but that is between him and the stolen valor investigators. (But one might ask if there was nothing wrong with it, why change your screen name?...I think the 65 year old movie thing was a backstop)
The claim of reverse engineering ... the FBI said that ....not me
The insertion of his products into customer service threads of other companies on FNForums while posting degrading comments about the company or product... that is between him, those companies, and the website that allowed it.
The being fired from companies and circumstances that surround the employment termination.... that is between Jim Elamzi and those companies
The bankruptcy is public record ...between him and and his creditors.
The people from other websites who filed wire fraud charges... between him and them
The situation between him and Dave Silvaggio (owner of DSA) and the accusation of everything from theft to embezzlement and something about a corvette and a dodge viper... well between him and Dave
Now all I have done I compiled the reports of other people. When it comes to libel, slander, and deformation there is one critical element, the fabrication of falsehoods. I am only reporting what others have said. So if Jim Elamzi wants to come to Washington State, hire a lawyer, spend $ 10,000-$50,000, file civil charges for me repeating what others have said. Then refute their sworn statements in a court of law, well I am ready. It has to be a lie, nothing I have said is, I am just repeating others experiences. All of these things have happened, and they are between him and other people. (He would be much better served mending fences and getting on the buttstock assembly he's working on)
Not illegal to discuss other peoples problems. The fact I know, what I know is why I am being attacked.
#4 We should go ahead and put to rest the tit for tat argumentative BS.
#5 It is going to take me a while to get this all together, I will do my best to put it out there so ALL can see and benefit.
QuietShootr
11-18-14, 18:16
STAN BULMER LIVES!!!
Fox33,
Your language and claims remind me of an old-fashioned carnival barker, relying on flowery, polysyllabic vocabulary to disguise his lack of content. Nothing you said was very specific, and moreover would be difficult to prove through testing. Frankly nothing you posted tells me much aside from "Handl product good", and what you did say could have been conveyed in FAR fewer words. Are you trying to build credibility through technical jargon? Seems like a lot of flak to me. We're talking "padding a college essay-grade flak".
Also, it's clear you're associated with Handl, so maybe you should mention that in your signature going forward. Historically, this site hasn't been enthusiastic about shills.
IKEWarrior04
11-18-14, 19:21
Fox33
Those are some very severe claims to be making. Why don't you post those statements for the world to see. You make claims, prepare to back them up.
Why don't you post the bankruptcy documents while you're at it. Claim..proof...claim ...proof. You getting this yet?
Fox33
Those are some very severe claims to be making. Why don't you post those statements for the world to see. You make claims, prepare to back them up.
Why don't you post the bankruptcy documents while you're at it. Claim..proof...claim ...proof. You getting this yet?
How more like your scouting mission fails....then he comes here/ pays for an attorney here... files a misguided lawsuit...then not only finally sees what other people (not me) have said... but then those people show up or provide statements as to what transpired.... Since all I am saying is person A said X about person B...since some of those people are vetted industry professionals, veterans, fellow special operators, and law enforcement officials... I am going to repeat what they have seen and said.
Since you are passing this on. Tell him if he were try to mend the fences with CAV, IWC, Handl, and DSA (a written apology would probably work). Then publicly apologize for the appearance of and disavow any implication of military service. I will STFU and go on about my business trying to find an accelerometer that'll fit in the back of a scar. Shit I might even be willing to help the guy out, I can forgive. But as you can tell I am not one for forgetting.
Until then I will not stop saying what others have seen and what others say.
IKEWarrior04
11-18-14, 22:10
How more like your scouting mission fails....then he comes here/ pays for an attorney here... files a misguided lawsuit...then not only finally sees what other people (not me) have said... but then those people show up or provide statements as to what transpired.... Since all I am saying is person A said X about person B...since some of those people are vetted industry professionals, veterans, fellow special operators, and law enforcement officials... I am going to repeat what they have seen and said.
Since you are passing this on. Tell him if he were try to mend the fences with CAV, IWC, Handl, and DSA (a written apology would probably work). Then publicly apologize for the appearance of and disavow any implication of military service. I will STFU and go on about my business trying to find an accelerometer that'll fit in the back of a scar. Shit I might even be willing to help the guy out, I can forgive. But as you can tell I am not one for forgetting.
Until then I will not stop saying what others have seen and what others say.
Again I don't know what you are talking about" passing on information. So unless you have tangible proof to present to the world about that, don't you dare implicate that I am working with Jim Elmazi. I challenge you to prove I am working for James Elmazi.
Figures that you would avoid yet another request for validation of your claims. Not surprising.
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