View Full Version : Best all around scope for all around ar.
Im building a 18in ar that will be replacing my Sig 516. This rifle will be for range work out to 500, occasional hog hunting, steel pinging, and possible 3 gun in the future. What optic gives the best all around?
Acog with rmr
vortex hd gen ii 1-6
burris xtr 1.5-8
any other suggestion would be appreciated. I've thought about a NF 2.5-10 with a rmr kicked off to the side.
Im open to just about anything at this point.
Thanks
SomeOtherGuy
11-11-14, 15:34
A 1-6x scope would be an excellent choice. The XTR 1.5-8x would probably also be a good choice, especially if you've tried using some magnification at 3-gun style distances and found that it works for you. It does work for me, but not for everyone. For range work you'd probably want at least 6x and ideally more, like the XTR or even a 2-10x. It really depends on your intended balance between 500 yard paper targets and 3-gun style shooting.
I would add to your list the Leupold VX-6 1-6x and the SWFA SS 1-6x, and if your budget allows also the Leupold Mark 6. The Mark 6 is significantly nicer in terms of glass, reticle and illumination than the others listed here, but should be at 1 1/2 to 2 times the price.
S&b 1-8 short dot pm II is the only one that does it all.
Only problem with it it's that it costs $3600......
I'm in the same boat as you. I've narrowed down to mk6 cmr or a vortex. Both are spendy.
It would be nice if leupold did a 1-6 vxr patrol with locking turrets. Told a cs service person that. They said just get a vx6....... subtensions kind of suck on the vx6. 2.5 mil is a lot.
DarkTemplars
11-11-14, 16:02
I like the Leupold 1-6, but for 500 yard work, 6x is kind of low for me. I would want at least 9x, but 6x would probably be good if you're just shooting at steel torsos.
US Optics SR-4C or SR-8C. Period.
US Optics SR-4C or SR-8C. Period.
Way too many reports, including within the last year, of issues with USO. Search this forum and you will find the threads. A search on Snipershide and Lightfighter will yield similar results. There are better options with a more consistent QC/QA track record.
Voodoo_Man
11-11-14, 18:56
I am guessing, since you are building on an 18" upper you are going to want something that reaches out as far as magnification goes?
How much do you value 1x and an RDS-type optic? Do you need an illuminate reticle?
Way too many reports, including within the last year, of issues with USO. Search this forum and you will find the threads. A search on Snipershide and Lightfighter will yield similar results. There are better options with a more consistent QC/QA track record.
Mind citing the reports?
Not putting you on the spot, I am just curious as I have not read of any issues.
I have an SR8C I'm testing and while I have not put an exorbitant amount of time on the optic it is a pretty solid optic from having handled other optics in the range.
http://i.imgur.com/GZZloiW.jpg
I just shot 500rds through mine, banged it while climbing towers and buildings, and know for a fact that it's on a number of .gov contracts. I'm confident in US Optics.
I've got the Vortex and love it.
Failure2Stop
11-12-14, 07:16
S&b 1-8 short dot pm II is the only one that does it all.
This always makes me laugh a little.
When has anyone seen one actually sold other than demo units?
Thanks for the quick replies. Has anyone used the bushnell tactical elite 1-8?
The problem with most of the variables is the BULK. They're more versatile than an ACOG, but I can't stand the bulk unless I'm going to mount a Bipod on it and know that it's going to be a dedicated SPRish type gun.
The problem with most of the variables is the BULK. They're more versatile than an ACOG, but I can't stand the bulk unless I'm going to mount a Bipod on it and know that it's going to be a dedicated SPRish type gun.
Same here. I put a TR24 on my featherweight ELW/KMR and yecch. The Ta33 3x ACOG is now my preference there. It's more center of balance than total weight. The 1-4 on a heavier gun feels okay. On the light one it feels like Rover wants to roll over for a belly scratch. My next one-by variable will have to have more top end to make the bulk acceptable.
Failure2Stop
11-12-14, 09:46
I find the performance gain with a decent 1-4/1-6 to be worth the weight (not that I have tried them all).
The Bushnell 1-6.5x is pretty decent, but I only like it in SFP.
The Leupy VX-6 1-6x is good, but has a very basic reticle.
The Leupy Mk6 1-6x is hard to beat for overall tactical use. I'm not a huge fan of BDCs, but the CMR-W is the best of the breed. Alternately, the TMR-D works pretty well.
The USO 1-4 and 1.5-6 are decent. I have not heard of issuese with them. I was a big fan of the 1-4 DFP, but you have to find them on the secondary market.
Overall though, the absolute "best" is the Leupold Mk8 1.1-8x. It is heavy, bulky, and expensive, but it is the best piece of glass for a dual-role 7.62 carbine. This, of course, assumes an H-27D reticle. I would not put the Mk8 on any 5.56 gun.
The USO 1-8 is very close to the Leupy, and I think it fits 5.56 a little better.
The GenII Vortex is ok, if you are down with the reticle and adjustment values.
I would recommend against the ACOG/RMR combo. It's a decent solution for guys that get COGs issued, but that's about it.
Failure2stop, what's your thoughts on vcog vs the mk6 for a 5.56 rifle? I imagine you have used them all in your line of work. Thanks for your knowledge.
This always makes me laugh a little.
When has anyone seen one actually sold other than demo units?
Dumb question, but why is it that way. Is it just the price tag or some other reason?
Failure2stop, what's your thoughts on vcog vs the mk6 for a 5.56 rifle?
Not Failure... but have you seen the price on that VCOG? Wow! Not apples to apples... but you can get a FFP Nightforce for cheaper. I was flipping through the Brownell's AR mini catalog.. (luckily while on the toilet) and saw the retail price on that thing. ;)
Failure2Stop
11-12-14, 15:05
Dumb question, but why is it that way. Is it just the price tag or some other reason?
Because as of the last I heard they haven't gone into production.
I am guessing, since you are building on an 18" upper you are going to want something that reaches out as far as magnification goes?
How much do you value 1x and an RDS-type optic? Do you need an illuminate reticle?
Mind citing the reports?
Not putting you on the spot, I am just curious as I have not read of any issues.
I have an SR8C I'm testing and while I have not put an exorbitant amount of time on the optic it is a pretty solid optic from having handled other optics in the range.
http://i.imgur.com/GZZloiW.jpg
Sorry, I'm going from memory of threads over the years and I don't save them. The last one dealt with distortion issues someone had with their sr8c. There have been a few on LF over the years as well.
Voodoo_Man
11-12-14, 18:21
Sorry, I'm going from memory of threads over the years and I don't save them. I thought you had posted in all of the threads here on M4c that I recall. The last one dealt with distortion issues someone had with their sr8c. There have been a few on LF over the years as well.
I normally search for info on the optic because I want to run it into the ground if I can (not from physical abuse, but from use on a rifle) and I do not recall any of those posts in the last few months. I'll be putting this thing through its paces in Feb with F2S, so I'll post up a review then.
Because as of the last I heard they haven't gone into production.
They are listed on swfa and europtic.
F2S, what is the mk6 like on 1x? Can it be used with the illumination off?
Cant find one in my part of the world to look through.
Failure2Stop
11-12-14, 20:31
Being listed and being in stock/in production are two significantly different things.
The Mk6 is best when illuminated.
They are listed on swfa and europtic.
Yea... I planned to buy one when they were supposed to be released over 4 years ago... Delay after delay, followed by the price continuing to climb. I got tired of waiting and bought the Swarovski Z6i 1-6. It's lighter than most optics it's size/power and the dot is brighter than my Aimpoints. The BRT reticle allows me to make hits out to 600 quite well.
Failure2Stop
11-12-14, 21:18
Yea... I planned to buy one when they were supposed to be released over 4 years ago... Delay after delay, followed by the price continuing to climb. I got tired of waiting and bought the Swarovski Z6i 1-6. It's lighter than most optics it's size/power and the dot is brighter than my Aimpoints. The BRT reticle allows me to make hits out to 600 quite well.
The Z6i is very good.
I can't say it's as robust as the Mk6, but still solid.
Wait a minute. So these outfits Show them on their website, but they aren't even being produced.
Jeez. I feel a bit stupid now.
Leupy MK4 1.5X5XX20 CMR2...for the cost.
Taking 3 gun outbid the mix and shooting to 300 meters. Is there anything wrong with a Acog ta11 with a rmr and canted sights as backup?
Failure2Stop
11-13-14, 12:19
Taking 3 gun outbid the mix and shooting to 300 meters. Is there anything wrong with a Acog ta11 with a rmr and canted sights as backup?
You will be paying more than you could get a decent variable for, with crappy performance from the RMR since it will most likely be piggy-backed over the COG.
Even though the TA11 and TA33 are the best of the ACOG line, I would rather have a decent variable.
Overall though, the absolute "best" is the Leupold Mk8 1.1-8x. It is heavy, bulky, and expensive, but it is the best piece of glass for a dual-role 7.62 carbine. This, of course, assumes an H-27D reticle.
It's been brought up many times in the past, in your opinion, what would work on a 7.62 DMR in the current market?
Failure2Stop
11-14-14, 07:18
It's been brought up many times in the past, in your opinion, what would work on a 7.62 DMR in the current market?
What's your definition of "DMR"?
If it is a semi-automatic rifle that is used to support a maneuver element in a tactical scenario without a spotter, with an expected high level of precision, rapid identification, and surveillance requirements, then I would say that my personal preference is the Leupold Mk6 3-18x with H59 reticle. HOWEVER, this preference is based off of my experience with that optic, which I use almost exclusively, due to their prevalence in my customer base.
There are other, very good optics out there, but from a size, features, and reticle standpoint, the Mk6 3-18x leaves very little for me to desire. If price is a factor, well, that's a different story.
Jwknutson17
11-14-14, 08:10
For the price of some of the Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-6.5 in SFP, in my opinion is hard to beat. Can find them now on sale for some decent prices. Bought my SFP Btr-2 for 913 bucks shipped. If you don't like it, Bushnell will give you 100 percent of your money back for a whole year for any reason. Maybe worth a try. Nothing to lose at least. Or give it a go with their 1-8x.
What's your definition of "DMR"?
If it is a semi-automatic rifle that is used to support a maneuver element in a tactical scenario without a spotter, with an expected high level of precision, rapid identification, and surveillance requirements, then I would say that my personal preference is the Leupold Mk6 3-18x with H59 reticle. HOWEVER, this preference is based off of my experience with that optic, which I use almost exclusively, due to their prevalence in my customer base.
There are other, very good optics out there, but from a size, features, and reticle standpoint, the Mk6 3-18x leaves very little for me to desire. If price is a factor, well, that's a different story.
Thank you for the advice. It's hard to try them all :)... Price is not a small factor, but usability and quality prevail... Should reticle illumination play any significant role in the tactical scenario described above? In other words, is it needed or not?
VCOGS are available and sitting on dealer shelves, amazon, etc., and they will probably stay there at the prices they sell for. I've looked at them several times, they are very clear, the eye relief is generous and forgiving.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=vcog
Thank you for the advice. It's hard to try them all :)... Price is not a small factor, but usability and quality prevail... Should reticle illumination play any significant role in the tactical scenario described above? In other words, is it needed or not?
Ultimately it comes down to mastering your equipment. Every optic has tradeoffs. Seeing first hand how the H59 reticle works in Jack's class I was very impressed. But for my needs, I'm not willing to give up a true 1x optic. No matter what scenario I come up with I cannot envision needing to shoot anything beyond a few hundred yards. My 1-6 has me covered out to 600.
The more training you can obtain, the better you'll understand how to best use you optic and how to work around it's limitations. A more powerful scope means adding offset irons or a mini red dot for closer targets. Plenty of shooters make that work but I prefer having a variable that as closely as possible works like an Aimpoint when I need it. I found I can use it without turning on the dot because the crosshairs give me a reference point. But in low/no light the crosshairs will be more difficult to see, especially under stress. I also don't have to worry about my offset irons or mrds being blocked if I'm on the left side of a barricade.
I've found the Z6i works so well for my needs that if I could only have one optic that would be it. My "recce" AR in 5.56 has one and I liked it so much I got another for my 7.62 AR. I still have a great deal to learn about precision shooting but now I can focus on improving me and I have a standard tool for both precision rifles.
I'd submit that shooters in the same league as Jack would be dangerous with any rifle and a Wal-Mart special Redfield scope duct taped to it. Just be realistic and honest with yourself about your needs (not always the same as wants) and you'll be fine. I don't need to read the license plate on the lunar rover and I wanted a lightweight optic. A quality 1-6 with a truly daytime bright dot fits me perfectly.
Good luck with your search.
More choices! :)
My 1-6 has me covered out to 600.
Does the BRT-1 reticle allow ~5MIL+ holdovers?
More choices! :)
Does the BRT-1 reticle allow ~5MIL+ holdovers?
They are 1 mil markings at 6x. The optic comes with stickers for some loads and blank stickers to make your own. There is also an online ballistic calculator but I haven't used it.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0232_zpsf778575a.jpg
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0235_zps040c197d.jpg
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0234_zps78c0ee01.jpg
Thanks for the quick replies. Has anyone used the bushnell tactical elite 1-8?
What is your price range? How much do you intend to bench rest vs. carry? Do you need illumination? Do you have to have 1x? Does the scope need to be "hard use" tough? Do you already own a HD rifle?
If you are going to carry the rifle, you want to consider weight. If you want it to shoot 1X and out to 500 yards then = $$$$. If you have money to burn and you are in good shape get a Leupy Mk8, but 8 power is about as low as I would go for 500 yards (maybe it is just my eyesight). The NF NXS 2.5-10x 42 or 32 will just get you to 500.
Or you could consider getting two scopes. One for close to mid, and one for mid to longish.
I don't know if you have already selected or built your SPR, but if you have not you might want to consider a .308 instead.
I picked up a Burris XTR ii 1.5-8 today. I could not pass it up for the price. I evaluated my shooting and my needs and determined I would try this optic first. From the reviews I have read, I think it will do everything I need.
Let us know how you like it.
CanineCombatives
11-14-14, 18:37
I have the Bushnell 1-6.5 SFP BTR-2, a Kahles K16i SM1 and a VXR patrol, crazy as it may sound for a 16" recce I'd grab the VXR every time.
In fact if it had locking or capped turrets I'd call it the best all around AR optic for everything, I never would have said that before owning one
but the thing is pretty amazing, once you get used to it you can pretty much get red dot speed at 1.25 and the reticle is plenty precise out to
500m and my eyes aren't the greatest, the dot is blazing bright even in direct sun, it weighs next to nothing and is tiny. It's the epitome of less
is more.
Failure2Stop
11-17-14, 09:26
What is your price range? How much do you intend to bench rest vs. carry? Do you need illumination? Do you have to have 1x? Does the scope need to be "hard use" tough? Do you already own a HD rifle?
If you are going to carry the rifle, you want to consider weight. If you want it to shoot 1X and out to 500 yards then = $$$$. If you have money to burn and you are in good shape get a Leupy Mk8, but 8 power is about as low as I would go for 500 yards (maybe it is just my eyesight). The NF NXS 2.5-10x 42 or 32 will just get you to 500.
Or you could consider getting two scopes. One for close to mid, and one for mid to longish.
I don't know if you have already selected or built your SPR, but if you have not you might want to consider a .308 instead.
I've taken the Mk8 1.1-8x out to 1100 meters, on a BCC sized piece of steel, with H27D reticle.
Buddy of mine was doing well with the Mk 6 1-6x CMR-W.
Both guns were 16" SR-25s.
Weather was optimal; super light 12:00 wind, good light, etc, but the point is that the reticle itself stood up and gave the needed data.
PatrioticDisorder
11-17-14, 10:49
I've been going round and round on this topic and clearly the best would be the Mk6 1-6 & Mk8 1.1-8 CQBSS but obviously both are expensive and really need illumination to be useful on 1x... I'm starting to think the Bushnell 1-6.5 in SFP or SWFA SS 1-6 may actually make more sense, especially after reading F2S (Jack's) thread titled "Getting over the need for daylight bright illumination in low powered variables since neither really needs to be daylight bright based on the reticle...
So with that, how many here have used both the Bushnell & SWFA LPVs, any opinions on what is the better of those 2 scopes?
SomeOtherGuy
11-17-14, 11:30
I've been going round and round on this topic and clearly the best would be the Mk6 1-6 & Mk8 1.1-8 CQBSS but obviously both are expensive and really need illumination to be useful on 1x... I'm starting to think the Bushnell 1-6.5 in SFP or SWFA SS 1-6 may actually make more sense, especially after reading F2S (Jack's) thread titled "Getting over the need for daylight bright illumination in low powered variables since neither really needs to be daylight bright based on the reticle...
So with that, how many here have used both the Bushnell & SWFA LPVs, any opinions on what is the better of those 2 scopes?
I've owned the SS 1-6x. Haven't owned the Bushnell but have spent a few minutes with it at a range, courtesy of a friend. Let me start out with two general opinions:
1) Although I demand FFP for high magnification target scopes, I strongly prefer SFP for low power variables, because very few FFP reticles work well at low power (The CMR-W 7.62 in the Mark 6 is the only one I've ever loved, although the discontinued T-reticle (sort of a German #4) that was offered at one time in the SWFA SS 1-4x also works well for me - I still have that scope).
2) I think people looking at low power variables should compare field of view, because it varies a ton among the current options, and will have a significant effect on the scope's usefulness, especially at intermediate 2-3x magnification which I often use in carbine competition (YMMV).
So with those opinions out there - I think the SFP Bushnell is better, based on being SFP, and having what I remember to be better illumination and wider FOV. The SS 1-6x is a well made scope but has rather narrow FOV and while the reticle is useable at both extremes, it occludes the vision between 4x and 5x where the ring is at or near what should be the outer edges of the view (blocking them), and I simply don't like it as well at either end.
I'll also add that if price keeps the Mark 6 out of the picture but allows the Bushnell, I'd shop around for a Vortex Razor 1-6x as a possibly better option than the Bushnell around the same price. It's heavier and I don't love the reticle, but its crosshairs extend to the edges making them much easier to pick up, the FOV is wide, the glass is fairly good, the illumination is simple and works, and it should be quite rugged. I had one of those too, didn't keep it because of the weight and the JM-1 reticle, but it is a solid offering for its price. If I got one again (never say never) I personally would get the newer mil-based reticle that wasn't offered when I bought mine.
I've taken the Mk8 1.1-8x out to 1100 meters, on a BCC sized piece of steel, with H27D reticle.
Buddy of mine was doing well with the Mk 6 1-6x CMR-W.
Both guns were 16" SR-25s.
Weather was optimal; super light 12:00 wind, good light, etc, but the point is that the reticle itself stood up and gave the needed data.
You have better eyes than I do, that's for sure.
FourT6and2
11-21-14, 10:28
I was in the same boat. Wound up going with Kahles 1-6x. Seems like a great choice so far. Got it from Sport Optics for a pretty good price all things considered. It's a pretty no-nonsense scope. A few different reticle choices. Best illumination I could find. Super bright if you need it during the day. Good glass, on par or better than Swaro Z6i from what I've read (never seen a Swaro in person). But they are sister companies. So doesn't surprise me. It's also lighter than most of the 1-6x scopes on the market. Seems to be built very well. Not sure if it is "combat" capable. But I'm not a soldier.
brickboy240
11-21-14, 10:37
People are really paying 2 grand plus for an AR scope?
Wow...the economy must not be that bad after all! LOL
Failure2Stop
11-21-14, 10:53
People are really paying 2 grand plus for an AR scope?
Wow...the economy must not be that bad after all! LOL
They're also paying for fishing boats, SUVs, and time-shares. It's all about priorities.
If you want to shoot small groups, you need good ammo, good glass, and time.
Some people are happy with expending their disposable (or budgeted) income in that direction. Some are not. The money moves where it is needed.
brickboy240
11-21-14, 11:26
Oh I am quite sure the 2500 dollar scope is fantastic. Like I am sure the 100 grand Porsche is also very fun to drive. If you have the cake for both...by all means spend it.
But should the most expensive scopes be in the "best all around" category?
Is there anything decent in the...say...400-600 dollar range?
SomeOtherGuy
11-21-14, 11:31
Oh I am quite sure the 2500 dollar scope is fantastic. Like I am sure the 100 grand Porsche is also very fun to drive. If you have the cake for both...by all means spend it.
But should the most expensive scopes be in the "best all around" category?
Is there anything decent in the...say...400-600 dollar range?
The most expensive stuff is usually (though not always) best. And someone here is bound to have one. It always helps to include your price point.
For $400-600 I would look hard for a used SWFA SS 1-4x, or a gen 1 Burris XTR or even Euro Diamond 1-4x. The Leupold VX-R "1.25-4x" (which Leupold's specs clarify is in fact 1.5-4x) would also be a good option. The Vortex Viper PST 1-4x could also be an option, but I'd choose it after the others listed. Finally SWFA has just announced a new 1-4x that looks pretty good, for $399, but it's a different model made at their lower-cost Japanese partner (which I think is Kenko but I'm not certain) rather than where their original 1-4x and other "HD series" scopes are made (which is Light Optical Works Japan).
FourT6and2
11-21-14, 11:34
Oh I am quite sure the 2500 dollar scope is fantastic. Like I am sure the 100 grand Porsche is also very fun to drive. If you have the cake for both...by all means spend it.
But should the most expensive scopes be in the "best all around" category?
Is there anything decent in the...say...400-600 dollar range?
I can only presume you are referring to me. I had the money to spend. And I wanted the best I could get for the budget I had. There aren't a lot of 1-6x scopes out there. And the Kahles is not $2500, btw. So instead of spending my money on booze or eating out or new shoes or a suit or whatever... I spent it on a scope. Not that hard to figure out.
I had some specific requirements, like true daylight illumination. There are no 1-6x scopes under 1000 dollars that have that. The cheapest competitor to the Kahles is the SWFA SS. And it's illumination is not daylight bright from what I read. I also preferred the reticle in the Kahles. But the SWFA is FFP if that matters to anybody. The only other 1-6x scopes I can think of off the top of my head (TRUE 1x) are the Leupold Mark 6, Meopta R2, Swarovski Z6i, Vortex Razor Gen II, Steiner (1-5, though), and some cheaper ones from Primary Arms and Sightmark. The Swarovski and Steiner are definitely the most expensive of the bunch. The Kahles is up there as well, though. But no more expensive than the Leupold.
If you want cheap, go with the Sightmark or Primary Arms I guess.
But based purely on numbers, the Kahles has the best weight, the best eye relief, the best field of view, and the best illumination. And arguably the best glass. There are some downsides of course, like cost (depending on your budget) and turret design (not intended for on-the-fly adjustment, more of a set-and-forget).
I do agree, though, the "most expensive" scope doesn't automatically mean the "best all around" scope. But when most of the features score high points, cost might be a small price to pay. On the flip side, you can get a cheaper scope but it might lack in other areas.
PatrioticDisorder
11-21-14, 12:02
New SWFA has an introductory price of $299 of their new 1-4, unproven but based on SWFA's rep if I were on a tight budget I'd consider it....
I've been rethinking my take on "best" scope, I think the Leupold Mk6 & Mk8 are the best but for the right price, VCOG is tempting and in fact I may indeed go with that. I never shoot past 500 yards and often "long range" for me is 300 yards and it's usually 100 yards and in, so I keep asking myself the question, do I really "need" the mi based reticle. Also, while the VCOG's illumination may be lacking, the reticle seems perfectly usable for quick two eyes open shots on 1x based on reticle design (kinda like the SWFA SS HD 1-6, but a little more precise).
So for me it's either:
SWFA SS HD 1-6 at $1,100ish (hopefully $799 for the scope Black Friday sale, $209 for Bobro mount, $60 for cat tail)
VCOG at $1,600ish (seems to be the best price some are finding on occasion outside DSG arms Memorial Day sale)
Mk6 1-6 at $2,050-2,100ish ($1,750 for scope, $200ish for mount, & $110 for cat tail)
The only knock for me on the Mk6 is usability on 1x without illumination, which IMO is lacking compared to the other 2. Considering that battery life is short in LPVs and most of my use will be on 1x occasionally dialing the magnification up, makes me lean toward the other 2. I wish Leupold would make the outer lines of the CMR thicker drawing the eye into the center of the reticle making the 1x without illumination more usable.
FourT6and2
11-21-14, 12:15
New SWFA has an introductory price of $299 of their new 1-4, unproven but based on SWFA's rep if I were on a tight budget I'd consider it....
I've been rethinking my take on "best" scope, I think the Leupold Mk6 & Mk8 are the best but for the right price, VCOG is tempting and in fact I may indeed go with that. I never shoot past 500 yards and often "long range" for me is 300 yards and it's usually 100 yards and in, so I keep asking myself the question, do I really "need" the mi based reticle. Also, while the VCOG's illumination may be lacking, the reticle seems perfectly usable for quick two eyes open shots on 1x based on reticle design (kinda like the SWFA SS HD 1-6, but a little more precise).
So for me it's either:
SWFA SS HD 1-6 at $1,100ish (hopefully $799 for the scope Black Friday sale, $209 for Bobro mount, $60 for cat tail)
VCOG at $1,600ish (seems to be the best price some are finding on occasion outside DSG arms Memorial Day sale)
Mk6 1-6 at $2,050-2,100ish ($1,750 for scope, $200ish for mount, & $110 for cat tail)
The only knock for me on the Mk6 is usability on 1x without illumination, which IMO is lacking compared to the other 2. Considering that battery life is short in LPVs and most of my use will be on 1x occasionally dialing the magnification up, makes me lean toward the other 2. I wish Leupold would make the outer lines of the CMR thicker drawing the eye into the center of the reticle making the 1x without illumination more usable.
Before I decided on Kahles, the Mark 6 and SWFA 1-6 were my top choices. Daylight illumination and reticle design were the deciding factors for me. But if you will shoot mostly at 1x, then maybe a 1-4x wold be better, like the SWFA 1-4x you mentioned.
Don Robison
11-21-14, 12:16
Oh I am quite sure the 2500 dollar scope is fantastic. Like I am sure the 100 grand Porsche is also very fun to drive. If you have the cake for both...by all means spend it.
But should the most expensive scopes be in the "best all around" category?
Is there anything decent in the...say...400-600 dollar range?
Decent isn't best; it's decent and would change the question.
Failure2stop, I've got a question for you since you've probably used both. I have an opportunity to buy either a mk6 1-6 cmr 556 or an Sr8c 1-8. For the same price which one would you choose?
PatrioticDisorder
11-21-14, 12:30
Before I decided on Kahles, the Mark 6 and SWFA 1-6 were my top choices. Daylight illumination and reticle design were the deciding factors for me. But if you will shoot mostly at 1x, then maybe a 1-4x wold be better, like the SWFA 1-4x you mentioned.
I haven't looked through the Khales, but definitely more than what I would want to spend although I'm sure the glass, field of view and illumination are nice, I'm not a huge fan of the reticle design. For $2500ish (plus mount & cat tail) I would demand excellent turrets like the Mk6 (or preferably CQBSS) have along with a much improved reticle. I think the Z6i would make more sense if you wanted to spend that kind of money, their BRT is mil based and has mil measurements for Windage as well (far from a perfect reticle but an improvement over Khales offerings IMO). I'd also be worried about the ruggedness of the Khales or Swaro vs. A Mk6 or VCOG...
brickboy240
11-21-14, 14:46
Wow...the Leupold VX-R is exactly what I was looking for.
Sorry..I have mouths to feed and a kid to put through college...a 2000 dollar scope is out of the question. I would love the 2000 dollar scope...hell..i would have loved to have dropped 2500 on a LaRue rifle but this Colt 6940 seems to be doing the job.
I know the VX-R is not top shelf but it will get me by until I can get really good glass or if my shooting needs take me to distances that require it.
-brickboy240
I can afford any scope I wanted but settled for the VX-R. It won't compete with the high $$$ scope but it offers a lot of bang for the buck and my kids Whisky and Cigar won't have to suffer!
brickboy240
11-21-14, 16:42
Thats what I was thinking.
I want to buy high quality...as I think I did with the Colt AR but I do have a ceiling! My other Colt AR wears an Aimpoint PRO and since I mostly shoot my ARs at well under 200yds...this Leupy ought to fill the bill.
Now if I was competing or a cop and this was my duty rifle...ok...I would suck it up and buy the 2000 dollar scope but the VX-R ought to do what I need. the reviews on it everywhere are pretty good.
..now...off to research a good mount/rings.
Thats what I was thinking.
I want to buy high quality...as I think I did with the Colt AR but I do have a ceiling! My other Colt AR wears an Aimpoint PRO and since I mostly shoot my ARs at well under 200yds...this Leupy ought to fill the bill.
Now if I was competing or a cop and this was my duty rifle...ok...I would suck it up and buy the 2000 dollar scope but the VX-R ought to do what I need. the reviews on it everywhere are pretty good.
..now...off to research a good mount/rings.
Brick,
I encourage you to not rule out the Burris MTAC. They are built like a tank and have pretty good glass for not a lot of money. The VX-R is pretty good, but I prefer my MK4 MR/T with the CMR-2 reticle. As far as mounts go, I am VERY happy with American Defense Recon and Recon X mounts. They are rock solid and return to zero. The Bobro mounts are nice too.
FourT6and2
11-21-14, 17:01
I haven't looked through the Khales, but definitely more than what I would want to spend although I'm sure the glass, field of view and illumination are nice, I'm not a huge fan of the reticle design. For $2500ish (plus mount & cat tail) I would demand excellent turrets like the Mk6 (or preferably CQBSS) have along with a much improved reticle. I think the Z6i would make more sense if you wanted to spend that kind of money, their BRT is mil based and has mil measurements for Windage as well (far from a perfect reticle but an improvement over Khales offerings IMO). I'd also be worried about the ruggedness of the Khales or Swaro vs. A Mk6 or VCOG...
Is this $2500 price people keep mentioning MSRP or something? Because you can get it for closer to $2,000 if you go to the right retailer. But yeah, that's still a pretty high price for some. As for the Z6i comparison, the Kahles has a few different reticles to choose from, including one that is similar to the BRT. And it's mil as well. Ruggedness might be a concern though. I have no information pertaining to that. But I'm not a soldier. So I have no need for something I can drop out of a helicopter. The turrets are definitely a negative though, on the Kahles.
Oh and Kahles has a lifetime warranty. Hell, they still service (for free) scopes that are 100 years old. That's hard to beat.
In any event, like I said the SWFA or Leupold might be some good options.
I have a SWFA 1-6 and am very happy with it. Its in a SWFA slightly forward mount. Pretty much a red dot at 1x, and a decent reticle to punch paper or bang steel out to several hundred yards.
FourT6and2
11-21-14, 17:39
I haven't looked through the Khales, but definitely more than what I would want to spend although I'm sure the glass, field of view and illumination are nice, I'm not a huge fan of the reticle design. For $2500ish (plus mount & cat tail) I would demand excellent turrets like the Mk6 (or preferably CQBSS) have along with a much improved reticle. I think the Z6i would make more sense if you wanted to spend that kind of money, their BRT is mil based and has mil measurements for Windage as well (far from a perfect reticle but an improvement over Khales offerings IMO). I'd also be worried about the ruggedness of the Khales or Swaro vs. A Mk6 or VCOG...
I have a SWFA 1-6 and am very happy with it. Its in a SWFA slightly forward mount. Pretty much a red dot at 1x, and a decent reticle to punch paper or bang steel out to several hundred yards.
Question: at 1x, if you use it with both eyes open like a RDS, do you need to readjust the diopter for proper focus?
I'd also be worried about the ruggedness of the Khales or Swaro vs. A Mk6 or VCOG...
I'm not saying they are the most durable and I'm not going to go run over mine with the Jeep to find out, but I don't think it's something to worry about.
In the United States, HPS is the importer, distributor and face of Kahles. Amazingly, the owner of HPS is Jeff Huber, one of the original founders, patent holders, and recent past Vice-President of Nightforce Optics (he was the original employee at Nightforce and led Nightforce Optics for 22 years). He’s the one who made Nightforce the company you’ve all heard of. You’d be hard pressed to find a nicer guy with as much hands on experience in the optics field. When Jeff tells you that there are no tougher scopes on the market than the new lines at Kahles, it means something. Jeff is also involved in the design of the Kahles optics being imported into the U.S. and makes frequent trips to the factory in Austria.
I had the SWFA 1-6 before this for a short time and the improvement in glass/weight/fov/illumination/eye box is noticeable.
People are really paying 2 grand plus for an AR scope?
Wow...the economy must not be that bad after all! LOL
My AR has a Mk8 on top of it. That's a $5,700 msrp optic, although I don't think anyone pays anywhere near msrp for it. I certainly didn't.
It's heavy, it's expensive, it's large, it doesn't have good battery life, it's barely visible at 1x without illumination, and the illumination is weird. But even with all that, it's my favorite optic. When the batteries are charged, it's a red dot at 1x. At 8x, it has amazing glass and a great reticle for precision shooting.
I think it's perfect for a 16-18" precision AR or .308 semi auto. I would not run it on a weapon for dedicated close quarters use, nor would I run it on a bolt gun. But if you could only have one optic to put on every weapon, the mk8 would be it.
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