View Full Version : VZ58 the new cool thing?
Why all the recent surge in popularity? And if some are claiming it's superior than the AK47, why am I just hearing about this now?
*I have a vepr, no experience with the VZ
Maybe 6-7 years ago they were, when they first really hit the US market.
I blame Strikeback. Saw them all over in that series, or at least the first(Or second) season depending on how you are counting. That said, if you get one from Czechpoint they are nice rifles and I would take one. Over an AK? Depends. But it is lighter and considered to be more accurate than an AK by some. Still want one to go with an AK personally just to have.
I had a couple of VZ's. They're decent guns, but I ended up selling all 3 of mine. You can accessorize them, and I have been down that road.
Pros
+They shoot a cheap and effective round.
+They are pretty light (before you start tacticooling the **** out of it, lol)
+Reasonably accurate for what it is
Cons
-Ejects out the top, so pretty much forget about mounting optics. Some workarounds exist, such as mounting red dots to a railed upper handguards. As for railed dust covers, tried that, no bueno. Long story.
-Ejecting out the top has also lead to some very odd "malfunctions, namely spent casing falling back into the action (the entire bolt carrier IS the ejection port). Although this seems like it should be statistically unlikely, I have had it happen probably 1 out of every 100 rounds fired.
-Occasional hang ups of the case mouth of the fresh round on the edge of the chamber (not sure what the technical term for this is) on feeding. This was used cheap-ass Czech surplus 7.62x39, so may be an ammo issue. With that said, I expect a Czech-made surplus gun to work with Czech-made surplus ammo, fer ****'s sake.
I'd take a decent AK over a VZ, in my humble opinion.
I really liked the few I handled. They're very light, have a great, minimalist folding buttstock, had nice triggers (at least the ones I saw did), and seem to be generally quite reliable and accurate.
Not taking AK mags is an issue, as is the ejection pattern, as mentioned above.
Has anyone SBR'd one? That might be interesting.
I really liked the few I handled. They're very light, have a great, minimalist folding buttstock, had nice triggers (at least the ones I saw did), and seem to be generally quite reliable and accurate.
Not taking AK mags is an issue, as is the ejection pattern, as mentioned above.
Has anyone SBR'd one? That might be interesting.
Not sure about in the US, but in Canada (whole different set of retarded gun laws), there are available the Czech Small Arms (new manufacture) VZ-58's.
http://www.csa.co.cz/en/15-produkty/23-sa58.html
They come in .223 (with its own unique ploymer mag - a travesty overall imho) and 7.62x39, in length of 18.5, 15.5", 11.75 and 7.5".
FSN also makes some VZ's in various lengths, although I don't know if they are still making them. See this thread for more info:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?93583-My-VZ-58-(FSN01)
Keep in mind that the popularity of the VZ in Canada is primarily due to the AK and anything the powers that be deem a "variant" being prohibited.
The exception here are a few models of Valmet AK's, which are allowed (even to hunt with) since the government bought some Valmets for indians/natives/first nations/whatever-the-****-they-are-called-this-year. This artificially low supply means that Valmet AK's cost $4,000+. These can be found in x39, .223 and .308.
So, long story short, if you are in the US and have the AK option available to you (that is, until Hussein and Co. decide otherwise), go for the AK. Ejecting out the side avoids many unnecessary issues.
So many great rifles so little time....the vz58 is just one of them. bought my first 7.62x39 rifle a CZ USA D-Technik vz58 back in 2008 before my first ak 47. Untl this day I never had a single issue with it.... Not even the ones posted here about spent casing causing malfunctions falling back into the action.....that is the first I ever heard of that. I collect ak47s and just added the csa/czechpoint vz 58 pistol 12" to the collection.
The VZ58 is everything the AK should have been to begin with.
Weight win for VZ58
Controls win for VZ58
Accuracy win for VZ58
Aftermarket win for AK
Magazine Options win for AK
KalashniKEV
11-14-14, 10:22
I would not select a VZ58 from any of the suppliers over a properly constructed AK.
The VZ58 is everything the AK should have been to begin with.
Weight win for VZ58
Controls win for VZ58
Accuracy win for VZ58
Aftermarket win for AK
Magazine Options win for AK
I don't think they're any more accurate than an AK. The weight difference seems insignificant to me also.
They're kind of just an oddity- huge proprietary mags w/ excessive BHO track, open top bolt, striker fired...
The Czechs wanted to do everything different from the rest of the East Bloc, and had higher standards for manufacturing. Their designs were inferior.
Is a CZ-52 a better pistol than a TT-33? Nope.
Is a VZ-52 a better rifle than an SKS? Nope.
Is a VZ-58 a better rifle than an AKM? Nope.
The Czechs wanted to do everything different from the rest of the East Bloc, and had higher standards for manufacturing. Their designs were inferior.
Is a VZ-58 a better rifle than an AKM? Nope.
That's cool man it's not your cup of tea, but the design is NOT inferior it's pretty solid. There's nothing wrong with the short gas piston and striker fired design. Closed bolt guns (vz58 & ar15) are generally more accurate because of dwell/lock time. The trigger on a vz58 also feels better but that is relative to the shooter. The controls are also made for a normal person and not your retarded little sister with monkey sized fingers. The magazines don't bother me, the AK is just more popular and has more options.
The only reason the AK is vastly more popular is because Russia was the top dog country in that region of the world during that time period and it's cheaper to product than the vz58.
Why all the recent surge in popularity? And if some are claiming it's superior than the AK47, why am I just hearing about this now?
I think it's the old VHS vs. Betamax thing. Sometimes the best product simply doesn't win; distribution and marketing do. I own two VZ58's and more than ten times as many AK's. As much as I like collecting the different AK variants, I have to say that I like the VZ58 design better overall.
I like Czech weapons in general, and would like to acquire one of these at some point. I sold all my AK's as they just didn't do anything especially well. I prefer my Russian SKS's in that caliber, but was enamored with the 74 for a while, and the 5.45. Now I would like to check the VZ58 out for what many have said above, plus they are just different.
I love my VZ.58. It's going to be Form 1'd here shortly, unlike then it has a Sig Brace.
KalashniKEV
11-14-14, 19:23
Closed bolt guns (vz58 & ar15) are generally more accurate because of dwell/lock time.
I don't think you know what "closed bolt" means.
The only reason the AK is vastly more popular is because Russia was the top dog country in that region of the world during that time period and it's cheaper to product than the vz58.
The AK is more prevalent because it's a better rifle made simpler and cheaper.
If the VZ58 were a halfway decent design, it would have spawned a generation of weird little milled receiver, striker fired guns with open top bolts and short stroke pistons.
None of those design elements were incorporated into other platforms, and the VZ58 did not withstand the test of time.
It's still worth owning as a novelty gun, and I couldn't resist picking up a CAI at the prices they were selling for a few years back...
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/Rifles/IMAG0912_zpssaylqdtw.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/Kalashnikev/media/Rifles/IMAG0912_zpssaylqdtw.jpg.html)
It's a good rifle, but not as good as it's Russian designed counterpart.
(Just like the other platforms I listed...)
You can get a good copy for under 500 bucks is why theres an interest in these rifles.
The VZ58 did stand the test of time it's still issued and used in conflicts. Like most weapons it gets replaced and it's successor is the Bren.
You can get a good copy for under 500 bucks is why theres an interest in these rifles.
I got both of my "real" ones for $550 each when they first came out.
For me I have to use the folder because the fixed stock gives me cheek slap. It is svelte, light, and fairly accurate. As accurate as the better AKs, but nothing earth shattering. (I have a Checkpoint VZ 58). The recoil is a bit more snappy than an AK, but of course it doesn't 'rock' - it has a short stroke.
My most accurate X39 was a Yugo CAI that could do 10 rounds in 1.5" at 50 yards. My VZ doesn't do that.
I first saw a VZ58 in Viet Nam in 1968 and thought it was a neat rifle. I've owned several AKs and though a truly great rifle I have to admit I prefer the VZ58. I bought an early D-Tecnik version last year and shooting it side by side with my Arsenal I find the VZ to be more accurate. These D-Teknic examples wreak of quality that few AKs can come close to, the Arsenal SAM7SF being an exception. If I had to choose between the two it would be the VZ58. Magazines have been no problem as I've found several sources offering brand new ones. Most people that knock these have never owned one.
I first saw a VZ58 in Viet Nam in 1968 and thought it was a neat rifle. I've owned several AKs and though a truly great rifle I have to admit I prefer the VZ58. I bought an early D-Tecnik version last year and shooting it side by side with my Arsenal I find the VZ to be more accurate. These D-Teknic examples wreak of quality that few AKs can come close to, the Arsenal SAM7SF being an exception. If I had to choose between the two it would be the VZ58. Magazines have been no problem as I've found several sources offering brand new ones. Most people that knock these have never owned one.
What was it doing in Nam in 68? I would like to know the story behind that one.
Kain, I was in the USAF Air Police stationed at Tuy Hua AFB and in January 1968 we got hit along with just about every other US installation during the TET offensive. The day after the initial attack we dispatched around two dozen VC sappers and collecting their weapons, two were armed with the VZ58. I imagine there were many more VZs sprinkled into Viet Nam by ComBloc countries. Interestingly our squadron commander was a gun guy and some of us were invited to shoot some of the captured weapons at our base range. All of us who shot the VZ preferred it to the AK, especially in full auto.
Kain, I was in the USAF Air Police stationed at Tuy Hua AFB and in January 1968 we got hit along with just about every other US installation during the TET offensive. The day after the initial attack we dispatched around two dozen VC sappers and collecting their weapons, two were armed with the VZ58. I imagine there were many more VZs sprinkled into Viet Nam by ComBloc countries. Interestingly our squadron commander was a gun guy and some of us were invited to shoot some of the captured weapons at our base range. All of us who shot the VZ preferred it to the AK, especially in full auto.
Very cool, and very interesting. First time I had ever heard of that rifle showing up in country, then again I suppose I should not be surprised. More reason for me to want to add one to the collection.
My old man was involved in TET. He was in the Navy though, off shore on a destroyer firing just about around the clock at that time. Got close enough to shore that they took machine gun and mortar fire during the offensive. He's also got a rather interesting story involving the USS Plueblo.
My grandfather spent 2 tours in Vietnam as a rifle platoon SGT and as a advisor and he told me that he came across a VC cache that contained no only vz58's but also vz52 and vz59's. They were there.
MountainRaven
11-15-14, 22:54
The AK is more prevalent because it's a better rifle made simpler and cheaper.
This is an ignorant statement.
The Kalashnikov design is more prevalent because the Soviets made tens of millions of them, set up factories to produce them everywhere from East Germany to the People's Republic of China. And then everybody who made the damned things gave them out to anybody willing to add the words, "People's", "Liberation", "Red", or "Revolutionary" to their group's name. By comparison to the somewhere around one-hundred million Kalashnikovs out there, there are fewer than one million Vz58s out there.
Arguing that the Kalshnikov is better because there are more of them is like arguing that the Yugo is better than the Veyron.
Anyone know what happened to Czechpoint? Last few times I've been on their site it says all of the vz58s are out of stock. They still in business?
I had a D-technique version vz58 and it was a top quality build.
Never had any malfunctions. Totally reliable.
Controls are better than an AKM.
Mags are bigger but thats okay because #1, they are thick alluminum and much lighter than AK mags, #2 they are very, very stout mags and #3 they trip the bolt hold open on the last round letting you know your empty.
The whole rifle is lighter and more svelte (equals handier) than an AKM.
Mine had a better trigger and clearer sights than an AK and thats probably why I was more accurate with it.
The folding stock manipulates well but sucks to shoot with.
I sold mine because there is just no decent way to mount optics on it. Additionally it would have been nice if 20 round mags were available. Add to that the controls aren't quite like an AR or AK and it becomes a training issue. So there ya go I don't have one anymore.
Decent rifle though. If I had choose AK or Vz58 no optics I'd take the Vz.
Optics are easy:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p526x296/10393939_10201778849231952_4449076884565708254_n.jpg?oh=12d048a2b4766c7cbd1ba6ed93659def&oe=54AC1982&__gda__=1422198141_4080ab297188b9e2185fb594641c836c
Czechpoint VZ.58 Pistol
VZ-304 and AKM mount
Aimpoint PRO
Stormwerks adaptor
KAK Tube
Sig Arm Brace
Savvy Sniper Sling
KalashniKEV
11-16-14, 10:33
The AK is more prevalent because it's a better rifle made simpler and cheaper.
This is an ignorant statement.
It's 100% true.
The Soviets had no problem with borrowing or outright stealing a good idea.
There are countless examples of this, some better executed than others.
Nobody picked up a VZ58 in 1959 and said, "Genius! Let's go back to short stroke pistons!" or "Wow! Check out this trigger, Oleg! Let's make striker-fired rifles!"
A BHO would have been a nice improvement, but having it run in a separate track attached to the back of every mag body seems like a concept demonstrator that never got any refinement before going into production.
The selector is inferior to a Galil type, and not a huge ergonomic advantage over the AK pattern, and both issue stocks have their shortcomings.
All of this is before you even consider that the receiver is milled out of a block of steel.
It's a good rifle, and worth owning. It's hot right now because it's cheap and it's different.
I'm glad dudes can get all hype over new stuff, but eventually it's time to come back to reality. There never was a VZalmet or a CzeGalil... and the reason isn't because of prejudice or racism against Czech people and their designs.
Uniform Tango 74
11-16-14, 10:52
Mmmmmmmmmm...VZ58 SBR.....
I had to get one of the PSA VZ2008s for $399.
Just too cheap not to get one.
MountainRaven
11-16-14, 12:47
It's 100% true.
The Soviets had no problem with borrowing or outright stealing a good idea.
Yeah, they reverse engineered the B-29, copied the Concorde and STS, and broad strokes of the F-15 appear to have been incorporated into the designs of the MiG-29 and Su-27. But not so much with small arms.
The Soviets barely tolerated the Czechoslovakians. They barely made any changes whatsoever to the Kalashnikov platform. Even after East Germany and Romania (and everybody else) developed better folding stocks, the Soviets stuck with the underfolder. The Czechoslovakians designed their own cartridge and their own rifle to go with it and were politely told to convert to the ComBloc standard... or else. The Soviets - in 1959 - right after finally getting quantities of AK-47s and AKMs fielded, were not about to drop them in favor of a design that did everything theirs did 5% better, while requiring them to figure out aluminum magazines, dump all their AK fixtures, retrain all their manufacturing and armory personnel, and suck up the huge blow to the national ego of adopting a weapon developed by a satellite state (something the Soviets never did. Ever. Smallarms development in the Warsaw Pact was a one-way street: From the Soviets to everyone else).
Their pistols adopted broad strokes of foreign designs, but never their improvements. The Soviets were naked about borrowing their favorite parts of the 1911 and the PP/PPK... but that's effectively where it ended. With a Western design that debuted in 1929. They never made a SiG-Soviet or a Communist Gloc.
You're right that the reason there wasn't a Vzalmet or a CzeGalil isn't because of racism or prejudice. Once again, however, it isn't about which arm is superior. It's about quantity.
The Valmet Rk62 was adopted for the same reason the Finns stuck with the Mosin-Nagant: A war against any nation but the Soviet Union was unthinkable and captured stocks of Soviet magazines, ammunition, and rifles could readily be pressed into service (as had occurred with the Mosin-Nagant and 7.62x54mmR). In fact, the Finns ended up purchasing a not-insubstantial quantity of Chinese Type 56 rifles for issue to reservists in the event of war with the Soviets to supplement the domestically produced Rks.
And the Galil? Well, at this point, we have tens of millions of AKs - the 5.45mm cartridge (the last effort by the Soviets to copy a foreign small arm) and accompanying AK-74 is right around the corner - and the Valmet already exists... so the Galil being a modified Valmet (itself a modified Kalashnikov) is pretty much a sure thing. The Israelis fought against Arabs with AKs, had problems with their FALs (and thought they were too large for a mostly mechanized force), but still wanted a range advantage over their Arab opponents... thus the 5.56mm cartridge in a modified Valmet. Had the Arabs used Vz58s in quantity instead of Kalashnikovs, it is entirely probable that Yisrael Galil would have based his rifle on captured Vz58s (or possibly even Vz58s bought direct from Czechoslovakia) instead of a copy of the Rk62.
CSA/Czechpoint makes some fine quality firearms
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/imagejpg1_zps40e06cfc.jpg
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/imagejpg1_zps1baf6742.jpg
Bad Medicine
11-17-14, 11:06
I own a VZ2008, probably not as nice as a czechpoint but I am extremely happy with the quality of the rifle. Versus my AK M70 under folder, I'd pick the VZ.
Pros
Mag design
Lower recoil
Side folding
Upswept charging handle
Lighter
Cons
Mag availibilty
I like my M70 tapco trigger better
Location of the safety
Once I got more into AKs I almost forgot about VZs. Plenty to like about them from what I gather, but ARs and AKs more than satisfy my hunger for semi-auto rifle enjoyment and utility.
I find the recoil via cheek slap not good compared to the AK which has a straighter stock - must be me.
The VZ 58 safety is easier to use - unless you have a krebs AK safety properly tuned.
Larry Vickers
11-17-14, 20:06
[QUOTE=KalashniKEV;2025531]I would not select a VZ58 from any of the suppliers over a properly constructed AK.
I don't think they're any more accurate than an AK. The weight difference seems insignificant to me also.
They're kind of just an oddity- huge proprietary mags w/ excessive BHO track, open top bolt, striker fired...
The Czechs wanted to do everything different from the rest of the East Bloc, and had higher standards for manufacturing. Their designs were inferior.
Is a CZ-52 a better pistol than a TT-33? Nope.
Is a VZ-52 a better rifle than an SKS? Nope.
Is a VZ-58 a better rifle than an AKM? Nope.[/QUOTE
Some historical perspective is in order here - the Czechs have a long and very proud history of designing small arms. In my opinion (and it is shared by many others) the military small arms made in Czechoslovakia in the 1930's are the finest quality in terms of fit and finish ever made. Hell the Bren Gun came out of Brno - that alone gives them major bragging rights
In addition evidence points to the Kalashnikov design bureau copying the locking mechanism for the AK from a Czech design
So I would say there was a reason the Czechs wanted to design their own - and their was also a reason the Soviets let them
My first range session with my VZ58 was shot alongside my Arsenal milled receiver AK both using the same ammo. The VZ shot significantly tighter groups at 100 yards (3 to 4" as opposed to 6 to 8"), but what really struck me was how smooth the recoil impulse was. As for the magazines they aren't much larger than the AKs and being constructed out of aluminum they are much lighter. I agree with Larry V that they are an oddity due to their small numbers in the USA compared to AKs. Until they were recently outlawed in Canada they were hugely popular there as an alternative to the AK.
Larry which Czech design was the AK locking mechanism copied from? I enjoy your very informative videos so keep up the good work.
My first range session with my VZ58 was shot alongside my Arsenal milled receiver AK both using the same ammo. The VZ shot significantly tighter groups at 100 yards (3 to 4" as opposed to 6 to 8"), but what really struck me was how smooth the recoil impulse was. As for the magazines they aren't much larger than the AKs and being constructed out of aluminum they are much lighter. I agree with Larry V that they are an oddity due to their small numbers in the USA compared to AKs. Until they were recently outlawed in Canada they were hugely popular there as an alternative to the AK.
Larry which Czech design was the AK locking mechanism copied from? I enjoy your very informative videos so keep up the good work.
They weren't all outlawed (prohibited to be exact). The RCMP outlawed a whole bunch from a certain batch and factory, but there are other versions that are still either non-restricted or restricted, depending on barrel length. Note that in Canada all firearms require licenses. As for registration, only non-restricted are not required to be registered (except for Quebec, because they are de facto above federal law and make up their own socialist shit as they see fit).
[QUOTE=KalashniKEV;2025531]I would not select a VZ58 from any of the suppliers over a properly constructed AK.
I don't think they're any more accurate than an AK. The weight difference seems insignificant to me also.
They're kind of just an oddity- huge proprietary mags w/ excessive BHO track, open top bolt, striker fired...
The Czechs wanted to do everything different from the rest of the East Bloc, and had higher standards for manufacturing. Their designs were inferior.
Is a CZ-52 a better pistol than a TT-33? Nope.
Is a VZ-52 a better rifle than an SKS? Nope.
Is a VZ-58 a better rifle than an AKM? Nope.[/QUOTE
Some historical perspective is in order here - the Czechs have a long and very proud history of designing small arms. In my opinion (and it is shared by many others) the military small arms made in Czechoslovakia in the 1930's are the finest quality in terms of fit and finish ever made. Hell the Bren Gun came out of Brno - that alone gives them major bragging rights
In addition evidence points to the Kalashnikov design bureau copying the locking mechanism for the AK from a Czech design
So I would say there was a reason the Czechs wanted to design their own - and their was also a reason the Soviets let them
The action on my "crappy/beater" Vz24 Mauser 98 clone is so smooth it's not even funny.
KalashniKEV
11-24-14, 09:24
The action on my "crappy/beater" Vz24 Mauser 98 clone is so smooth it's not even funny.
...and if they made TT-33's, I'm sure they'd be the best TT-33's ever made.
Obviously my post went completely over your head.
[QUOTE=Larry Vickers;2027590]
The action on my "crappy/beater" Vz24 Mauser 98 clone is so smooth it's not even funny.
I'm not surprised cause the Czechs/BRNO know how to build firearms...I have a persian mauser and really cool to see the build quality gone into these rifles built in the 30s
Berserkr556
11-27-14, 20:22
I love the vz 58. Here's my second Czechpoint. IIRC I bought this one in 2010. It has been modified since this picture was taken with an extended mag release & BHO. I put a rail on the receiver and use a RS Regulate mount for an Aimpoint. I now have a WOTG (Proctor sling) on it and I painted the rifle camo. The rig is a Tactical Tailor 2 piece MAV with HSGI mag pouches which they stopped making. I've owned AKs since the early 1980s and have owned at least one of every model ever imported but I prefer the quality Czech vz 58. I really want one of the new Czechpoints with the German barrel but they're always out of stock when I have the cash to buy one.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s140/Saxon777/vz58_zpsf2799a05.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/Saxon777/media/vz58_zpsf2799a05.jpg.html)
Larry Vickers
11-29-14, 08:16
My first range session with my VZ58 was shot alongside my Arsenal milled receiver AK both using the same ammo. The VZ shot significantly tighter groups at 100 yards (3 to 4" as opposed to 6 to 8"), but what really struck me was how smooth the recoil impulse was. As for the magazines they aren't much larger than the AKs and being constructed out of aluminum they are much lighter. I agree with Larry V that they are an oddity due to their small numbers in the USA compared to AKs. Until they were recently outlawed in Canada they were hugely popular there as an alternative to the AK.
Larry which Czech design was the AK locking mechanism copied from? I enjoy your very informative videos so keep up the good work.
The Czech ZK420S is the rifle that many feel Kalashnikov copied the rotating bolt locking mechanism from - my gut says people are correct
Thanks Larry, that's very interesting.
I didn't know the Canadians had their VZ58's banned..
I didn't know the Canadians had their VZ58's banned..
Sort of. Some were deemed prohibited by the RCMP based on their "interpretation" of the law, depending on which receiver modifications the factory they came from put in). 30 days were allowed to hand them over to the RCMP for destruction.
Other VZ-58/CZ858 models were not prohibited, and retained their original classifications of either restricted or non-restricted (depending on wether the barrel is below or above 18.5".
Then a 5 year amnesty was granted (wow, thanks for a temporary reprieve from eventual confiscation). This is not written in stone, and can (and will be) revoked if another party comes into federal power. In the meantime, no one may take a prohibited firearm to the range (so basically you're stuck with a safe queen by law).
Keep in mind that this is all under a Conservative government. If either the Liberals or NDP comes into power, even this ****ed up situation is going to look good compared to what they have in stock for us (complete prohibition on civilian firearms ownership).
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