View Full Version : Out with the MP5s and in with the...Rock River M4?
So our unit has finally exhausted parts supplies and most of the ammo for our beloved MP5s and the M4s are on the way up from the firearms division at Quantico. I really haven't seen specs or much other than they are Rock River (?) and come with Eotechs.
After being on this forum for a while and doing a LOT of reading and researching, I bought a BCM for my personal use a couple of years ago and have never seen or read anything that would make me want to own a RR. But they must have been on the cheap for the Bureau to be buying them for us.
So what exactly do I look for so I'll feel comfortable relying on this thing while I'm at work. I do carry my BCM with me everyday when I am traveling to and from work, but would get into hot water, I am sure, if I used it while on duty.
I have a pretty basic knowledge of the AR and know how to clean it and maintain it but never felt the need to inspect the stuff that I know is done properly on the BCM. I have no such warm fuzzy with these new issued weapons though.
Are there any photos/links for dummies on what exactly I should check?
Thanks in advance
What you can do with an agency gun will obviously differ from privately owned. As will the specs and standards it may have already been subjected to. That said, this thread has been pretty handy for a lot of folks and offers much.
"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7376-quot-Oh-No!-I-bought-a-BM-RRA-Stag-before-I-knew-better!-quot
A few dozen of the RRA gov models I see were problematic on arrival, but have since been fixed and do okay. A similar quantity of another RRA commercial variant also do okay now, after staking, reaming, and inspection.
Inkslinger
11-17-14, 09:58
Maybe this one as well.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=977073
One of my current carbines is a Rock River. I have put a few thousand rounds through it with no issues.
Several of our swat cops bought RRA guns several years ago. Many of them have shot the hell out of them without problems.
Not my first choice, but I wouldnt lose sleep if I was issued one.
It's like any other gun. Inspect it and if anything's wrong bring it up to your armorer chain's attention.
I took custody of 1200 USG-purchased select-fire Rock River M4geries for an allied Special Forces unit. They all go bang.
What you can do with an agency gun will obviously differ from privately owned. As will the specs and standards it may have already been subjected to. That said, this thread has been pretty handy for a lot of folks and offers much.
"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7376-quot-Oh-No!-I-bought-a-BM-RRA-Stag-before-I-knew-better!-quot
A few dozen of the RRA gov models I see were problematic on arrival, but have since been fixed and do okay. A similar quantity of another RRA commercial variant also do okay now, after staking, reaming, and inspection.
I saw this with two local agencies shooting XM193 through RRA .223 chambers. After reaming the chambers to 5.56mm, they ran well. I am currently running a chrome lined 5.56mm RRA barrel on one of my carbines and it eats anything I shoot through it.
Carpetcop617
11-17-14, 11:37
Don't sweat it brother. My agency issues us Bushmaster Patrolman Carbines and we have survived about the past 7 years with them. It does suck to leave my Spikes/PSA Premium middy or LE6920 home while trusting in the lesser weapon, but truth be told... Our Bushies have been good to us. I have no doubt that the Rock River will get the job done.
If its feasible, I would personally feel a bit more comfortable dropping a complete BCM or Colt BCG in the thing. If you are not allowed to do the aforementioned, what about purchasing a BCM sopmod bolt upgrade/ rebuild kit and installing it on the existing bolt? The BCM bolt rebuild kit would head many potential issues off at the pass, so to speak. Here is a link to the above-referenced kit: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SOPMOD-Bolt-Upgrade-Rebuild-Kit-p/bcm%20bolt%20upgrade%20kit.htm
Best of luck, copper :)
Thank you very much. I learned more about this stuff in the last 1/2 hour with your links than I could have imagined. Really interesting that some companies choose not to do these things. Nothing in the list seems very cost intensive, if done at the factory level.
Extra cost has to be the reason why, no?
If its feasible, I would personally feel a bit more comfortable dropping a complete BCM or Colt BCG in the thing. If you are not allowed to do the aforementioned, what about purchasing a BCM sopmod bolt upgrade/ rebuild kit and installing it on the existing bolt? The BCM bolt rebuild kit would head many potential issues off at the pass, so to speak. Here is a link to the above-referenced kit: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SOPMOD-Bolt-Upgrade-Rebuild-Kit-p/bcm%20bolt%20upgrade%20kit.htm
Best of luck, copper :)
"Copper". Classic
I had a Rock River carbine before, it was a very nice rifle. It never hiccuped on me, I wouldnt worry too much.
"Copper". Classic
No disrespect, by the way. Just messin w ya. ;)
In all seriousness, do you know if that BCM bolt upgrade kit (the one I linked to) would be allowed on your duty rifle? Quality gas rings, Quality milspec extractor, quality extractor spring + insert etc...those are all very high wear parts. Most failures associated with the bolt/BCG are going to be traced back to those parts. I have several of the bcm bolt rebuild kits stored away. Great to have around. Let us know how everything goes.
I am curious to see if Quantico has done anything to them. I doubt we'll be able to do anything to them here in the field. I got repremanded a while back for simply putting a plug in that gap in the bottom of the grip on my Glock.
Interestingly, spoke to one of my buddies at HRT and he was issued one as well, he's run it for 3+ yrs now; it has a giesele trigger set, and troy battle rail w/10" upper. Also a chrome bolt and barrel. He also said it was "slightly modified". Although I noticed a HK416 in his equipment room and when I asked which sees more use he just grinned.
I am curious to see if Quantico has done anything to them. I doubt we'll be able to do anything to them here in the field. I got repremanded a while back for simply putting a plug in that gap in the bottom of the grip on my Glock.
Interestingly, spoke to one of my buddies at HRT and he was issued one as well, he's run it for 3+ yrs now; it has a giesele trigger set, and troy battle rail w/10" upper. Also a chrome bolt and barrel. He also said it was "slightly modified". Although I noticed a HK416 in his equipment room and when I asked which sees more use he just grinned.
This makes me laugh. I have no idea where the LE love for RRA comes from besides dirt cheap. I have never been satisfied with the quality of them. If only LE agencies bought cheap upgrades we'd all be safer. We have old 70s era Colts with no rifling in the barrel and rusty bcgs. COME ON NEW POLICY, COME ON!
My SWAT team has 4 RR 10.5 rifles, each with probably 8-9,000 rounds on them. No issues.
Had a RR CAR Elite a long while ago that chewed up anything it was fed and spit some of them out in the sub MOA fashion. Only issue it ever had was the ss match trigger went soft and began to do scary things...
Well, they're here and I finally had a chance to look at a couple of them today. They're RRA, LAR15 in 5.56, 14.5" barrel, fixed front sight post, quadrail, safe/semi selector, M4 basic collapsible stock, and Eotechs. Pretty much what I was expecting. After getting a couple of them apart, it's pretty much what I saw in the links you guys posted ( https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7376-quot-Oh-No!-I-bought-a-BM-RRA-Stag-before-I-knew-better!-quot ).
Gas key is sorta' staked, buffer tube is not. Oh and there are a couple of Troy magazines floating around in the gun cases. Not familiar with these at all, only have Magpul for my personal boom stick.
Best part of the whole deal should be the issued ammo, green tip for training and the FBI duty rounds (whichever one we're using now, sadly I don't even know). Have seen a couple different 5.56 offerings recently during training days, mixed in with the loose green tip.
Another member and myself looked at some RRA carbines last year in GA in one of my classes. They were all FUBAR, gas ports were HUGE among other things. Bottom line is that I would check them, fix any shortcomings like stakings and then do the best you can.
I'm anxious to take 'em out and put some rounds downrange. Typical training day might be 5 or 600 rounds and I'd feel good to get through that with no stoppages or malfunctions just to start out on the right foot I guess.
Well, they're here and I finally had a chance to look at a couple of them today. They're RRA, LAR15 in 5.56, 14.5" barrel, fixed front sight post, quadrail, safe/semi selector, M4 basic collapsible stock, and Eotechs. Pretty much what I was expecting. After getting a couple of them apart, it's pretty much what I saw in the links you guys posted ( https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7376-quot-Oh-No!-I-bought-a-BM-RRA-Stag-before-I-knew-better!-quot ).
Gas key is sorta' staked, buffer tube is not. Oh and there are a couple of Troy magazines floating around in the gun cases. Not familiar with these at all, only have Magpul for my personal boom stick.
Best part of the whole deal should be the issued ammo, green tip for training and the FBI duty rounds (whichever one we're using now, sadly I don't even know). Have seen a couple different 5.56 offerings recently during training days, mixed in with the loose green tip.
So these are not LE "Select Fire" M4's? and are just AR-15's?
I think LE price on a real "Select Fire" Colt M4 is only $1200.00 How much cheaper are these RRA's and why didn't your agency go with real M4's for duty use?
So these are not LE "Select Fire" M4's? and are just AR-15's?
I think LE price on a real "Select Fire" Colt M4 is only $1200.00 How much cheaper are these RRA's and why didn't your agency go with real M4's for duty use?
Correct, just AR-15s. As far as your question, I really don't know. I thought maybe it was because our AO is in downtown Manhattan so they wouldn't want anything with a full auto. But our guys who work at CJIS in WV, which has over a hundred acres of mostly open ground, also have the AR-15 assigned.
I'm anxious to take 'em out and put some rounds downrange. Typical training day might be 5 or 600 rounds and I'd feel good to get through that with no stoppages or malfunctions just to start out on the right foot I guess.
I think you should be good to go. As Iraq Guns alluded most RRA are over gassed, but I haven't seen any reliability issues with it. Check the bolt carrier key staking, keep the BCG wet and shoot the daylights out of it.
F-Trooper05
12-11-14, 01:07
I recently taught at a class where we had three FBI SWAT units from three major cities and all of them had turned in their RRA's for Colts. I was under the impression that this was being phased in Bureau wide?
The few RRA's ive seen have had rifle uppers with dremeled in M4 feed ramps and as Iraqgunz mentions, grossly overgassed. Ive talked to a Sheriff buddy of mine who hates his issued RRA as do most of his friends in the department.
I recently taught at a class where we had three FBI SWAT units from three major cities and all of them had turned in their RRA's for Colts. I was under the impression that this was being phased in Bureau wide?
Rarely see the agents with theirs as most have little or no use for it in their day-to-day but I am going to pay more attention to who has what when we're at the range. Thus far it seems to be fairly evenly mixed between RRA and Colts.
Still lots of agents and officers who see it as you open the case and say, "It looks nice", possibly identifying the Eotech and that's the extent of their knowledge on the subject.
I really wish the Bureau still hosted the family shoots like they did back in the mid-late 90s. So much MP5 enjoyment to be had.
Sigh.....
Saw a few groups a year brought in when I was working at the Academy such as the FBI Explorers (sorta like LE Boy/Girl Scouts) but we do still have family day events here in the NY office. Usually in conjunction with a military range.
I've followed this thread for a spot, and I have to say it. I just have to challenge the basis of the source (not having to do with the rifles).
Too dang painful. Let me get this straight:
You're a LEO, you're a fed, probably Bureau, as in FBI. You admit carrying a non-issued/non-POW firearm to and from "duty" work. So this personally-owed non-approved weapon is kinda always in the trunk of your bucar. A rifle. Are you kidding? Not right. If you don't drive a bucar and it's in your POV to/from work (meaning you're not an agent) is, again, not right. That's some crazy.
You say you shoot 500-600 rds typical training day. Whether that's handgun or rifle didn't say.This is at a typical shoot for the bureau? Not right, unless you're swat. But then if you're swat (or even a field agent) you wouldn't be on a forum like this asking the members these things or saying these things but you could just talk to your principle firearms instructor, or just call the ssa at FTU about RRA. "That's some crazy."
You rarely see agents with their rifles because you say most have little or no use in their day-to-day; well that's because they either have them kinda sorta always stored in their trunks for which they wont be carrying them into the office, or they bring them out from home only for those choice arrest/dicey surv days only. More crazy basis.
You actually wonder if you might be able to do anything with the rifle when issued, like change things (i.e. bolt, parts, etc.). Are you serious? They gave you back your glock grip plug and you knew it's an "alteration." Do you not know everything is standardized, especially for rifles, for better or worse, and any alteration would potentially involve personal liability for any issue, much less this issue to do with a policy violation? You never got "that" briefing at Quantico? Or from your firearms instructors? Crazee.
I really don't get these posts. If you're an agent I hope you're utterly new in which perhaps the hyperbole and ill-judgement "might" be excusable. I suspect you're a poser (or other type of fed employee) with a little inside knowledge and seeking to keep moving the thread for purposes of illustrating certain knowledge. But better you read silently to answer any of your questions rather than publicize your issues and highlight ..er .. the plain crazy. Please stop being "that" guy.
Oh my! Insert popcorn smiley here.
I've followed this thread for a spot, and I have to say it. I just have to challenge the basis of the source (not having to do with the rifles).
Too dang painful. Let me get this straight:
You're a LEO, you're a fed, probably Bureau, as in FBI. You admit carrying a non-issued/non-POW firearm to and from "duty" work. So this personally-owed non-approved weapon is kinda always in the trunk of your bucar. A rifle. Are you kidding? Not right. If you don't drive a bucar and it's in your POV to/from work (meaning you're not an agent) is, again, not right. That's some crazy.
You say you shoot 500-600 rds typical training day. Whether that's handgun or rifle didn't say.This is at a typical shoot for the bureau? Not right, unless you're swat. But then if you're swat (or even a field agent) you wouldn't be on a forum like this asking the members these things or saying these things but you could just talk to your principle firearms instructor, or just call the ssa at FTU about RRA. "That's some crazy."
You rarely see agents with their rifles because you say most have little or no use in their day-to-day; well that's because they either have them kinda sorta always stored in their trunks for which they wont be carrying them into the office, or they bring them out from home only for those choice arrest/dicey surv days only. More crazy basis.
You actually wonder if you might be able to do anything with the rifle when issued, like change things (i.e. bolt, parts, etc.). Are you serious? They gave you back your glock grip plug and you knew it's an "alteration." Do you not know everything is standardized, especially for rifles, for better or worse, and any alteration would potentially involve personal liability for any issue, much less this issue to do with a policy violation? You never got "that" briefing at Quantico? Or from your firearms instructors? Crazee.
I really don't get these posts. If you're an agent I hope you're utterly new in which perhaps the hyperbole and ill-judgement "might" be excusable. I suspect you're a poser (or other type of fed employee) with a little inside knowledge and seeking to keep moving the thread for purposes of illustrating certain knowledge. But better you read silently to answer any of your questions rather than publicize your issues and highlight ..er .. the plain crazy. Please stop being "that" guy.
Because I don't see the harm an because you really put some though into this: I am with the Bureau's uniformed division. We are sort of the bastard step child as the agency is most assuredly agent focused.
We are authorized to carry our duty weapon and/or a personal weapon off duty. Because of the nature of attacks on law enforcement and the beauty of mob mentality, I do carry a personally owned rifle when I feel the situation warrants it. It's in a backpack and never leaves my person except next to me when I'm driving or in my locker at work. I decided a while back I was never, EVER going to be that person who was there for the (insert insane active killer-type event of your choice here) and not be able to address it.
We do not get a lot of info at my end of the hierarchy and I have not been to the academy since it came down that we were getting the ARs. I will most certainly make a point to stop in the armory the next time I'm down there so if you have any particular questions you'd like answered, I'll do my best to add them to mine.
So, I do like your thought process and looking back, the posts do lend themselves to some questioning. Kudos for that. Not sure where you're located but a week before you are going to be in Manhattan, shoot me a pm with your info and, depending on your background, I'd be happy to give you the fifty cent tour of the FBI office.
Edit to add: I knew we wouldn't be allowed to do anything to the rifles but I had really hoped that someone knew, or cared, at least as much as the more knowledgeable folks here and would have done them up properly before they hit our office. I was wrong, but that didn't stop me from hoping.
Sorry, another edit. I do get out with SWAT when they are doing flat range work and have shot 500+ rounds through the AR and pistol with them and during firearm instructor school and officer survival school (pistol only) at West Point with our firearms unit there.
No trouble, all explained. That's understood and understandable. Be safe; the rifle issued to you w/ its rail, its forend, its sight, will be perfectly fine as-is and go bang when where you want. My two cents worth little - Make the new one 2nd nature. Practice practice, hold hold, move move, aim aim, repeat often. No difference in use-terms from your other, just keep handling that rifle more and more and then more to make it become 2nd nature or a tool like any other without thought. Good luck.
So we finally got coordinated between our range and our officers' schedules. Unit qualified on the AR-15s as of yesterday. Surprisingly, supervisors took my suggestion and we have VTAC 2 point slings for them. I just didn't want to end up with the three point ones like we had on the outgoing MP5.
As expected, almost to a person, everyone feels it is a big step up from the MP5. Interesting to see officers who were not happy to say goodbye to the MP5 gushing about how easy the AR was to qualify with and put rounds on target from any position. Did have a couple malfunctions though, failure to eject several times, but it was one particular gun and the same officer. I didn't see if it was same magazine or not.
All in all, a good "roll out" I suppose.
Just as a follow up, Bureau is making wholesale changes to their agent issued M4s. Uppers are being replaced with Colt units that have 11.5" (I believe) barrels, Troy alpha rails along with Magpul CTR stocks. Also the upper is shipped with an Aimpoint T2 (replacing their Eotechs) that sits on a Daniel Defense mount. VTAC 2 point slings are common but have seen some others depending on personal preference. Seems to be a very nice shooting, very light setup. Saw it in action first time this week during some range time with the NY office SWAT team.
As an aside they have also introduced a POW (personally owned weapon) AR that is a Colt LE6920, 16" barrel, Troy alpha rails with the allowed accessory list including a Troy lopro QD swivel mount, an inforce white/IR wml, VTAC sling, Magpul CTR stock, Hogue pistol grip and the Aimpoint H1, H2, T1 or T2 and DD mount. Designated the LE6920-FBP1. So side-by-side, it looks like the big brother of the Agent issued SBR. Or would that make it the "little" brother?
I'll post pics when mine arrives. My understanding is it goes from Colt to the armorers at Quantico and then to your field office's range as you must qualify with it before you can take possession. Armorers have to install the grip and the swivel mount and the user, with area's firearms instructor supervision, installs anything else.
ETA: also allowed Troy "squid grips" and Mako PTK, a rather unwieldy looking AFG.
Good stuff for the most part.
I wish my agency had personally owned weapons program.. :( we can't even swap grip panels on our service pistols ourselves... But get KAC SBRs so maybe it's a wash.
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Good stuff for the most part.
I wish my agency had personally owned weapons program.. :( we can't even swap grip panels on our service pistols ourselves... But get KAC SBRs so maybe it's a wash.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
I was praying the POW was gonna be the SBR but didn't happen. Anyway, KAC SBR ought to ease your pain.
Now here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?178780-New-Uppers-and-a-quot-new-quot-offering-from-Colt-for-the-FBI
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