View Full Version : Old School carry loads--anybody still packing them?
29784
29785
Federal 9BP, 115 grain standard pressure load.
29786
29787
29788
Remington L9mm1, 115 grain standard pressure load.
That's what I'm carrying on the mean streets. Anybody still packing old school?
Both are terrible, and not a smart choice for carry. Load development has come a long way since the late 80's/early 90's. Modern bullet design has moved beyond the idea that higher energy = better terminal ballistics.
Will say the same thing that I always say when someone brings up old/cheap defensive ammo. How much is your life worth? Mine ain't cheap. In the scheme of things, you really have to be cheap to carry shitty defensive loads, and honestly, the shitty ammo ain't much cheaper then Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST, or even Winchester Ranger JHP if you shop around. Hell Gold Dot and HST are less then .50 a round for christ sake. And please don't be one of the limp dicks you goes out and buys Winchester Black Talons that are 20+ years old and carries them because they are no better. You want the Black Talon pedigree buy Ranger Ts, have better than a case of them because I personally like them, but there are several top quality defensive ammo choices out there to be had that won't break the bank and are better than the cheapo ones you get at Wally World and they generally perform a hell of a lot better too.
Sorry for the rant, but don't be stupid.
Defensive ammunition is light years ahead of what it was 20 years ago. Shoot your old ammunition during training/practice and purchase a more modern cartridge for self defense.
No.
They were mediocre rounds back in the day (hence why 40 S&W was born) and they're just plain antiquated now.
My agency used to issue 9BP and I still have some for educational purposes. It's performance against ANY type of barrier was substandard at best. It fragmented something fierce against auto glass and would not pierce stucco, thick leather or any similar surface. Additionally, the 9BP went through a few changes over the years. Most of the good stuff you read about it online (Stephen Camp, Mas Ayoob, etc) were dealing with the early iterations and not the stuff the produce of late.
Do yourself a favor and buy some HST or Gold Dot.
decodeddiesel
11-18-14, 23:55
I bet you shoot in a bladed weaver stance too. :rolleyes: That ammo blows, plain and simple. Numerous outstanding suggestions on totally decent self-defense ammo in this thread. I personally prefer Ranger-T in the heaviest bullet weight available for a given caliber. If that's not available I use GoldDots. My normal EDC is 12+1, with another 12 147gr Ranger-Ts.
Straight Shooter
11-19-14, 06:39
IF..FORCED to use one old school load..it would be .45ACP 230gr. Ball. NOTHING else.
I still have some Remington .38spl +P LSWC-HP's.
I still have a case of Federal 9BPLE and would carry it without hesitation.
wildcard600
11-19-14, 07:34
I guess I don't understand, L9mm1 is still made by Rem. I actually bought a box last year. Why is that "old school" ? Is it because of the bullet design ? I don't keep up with the whiz bang latest supa powha manstopper FBI tested cutting edge ammo stuffs so forgive me if that is a "stupid question".
When I think "old school" I think of 158gr semi wadcutter .38 or wadcutters loaded backwards.
At any rate, I've been using golden sabers in my pistols that see SD duty for some years now and see no reason to change that.
YMMV
Combat_Diver
11-19-14, 07:57
straight shooter
IF..FORCED to use one old school load..it would be .45ACP 230gr. Ball. NOTHING else.
Got only one choice over here. Still using FMJs which is better then praying.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/1911_G19_c.jpg
Have since turned in the G19 and just carry the 44' dated Remington Rand along with a M14.
CD
Shoot the L9mm1 in low light and share with us what you observe. The range might light up like a 5"/54 was fired.
In my humble opinion, flash retardant is an important characteristic of a defensive round.
IF..FORCED to use one old school load..it would be .45ACP 230gr. Ball. NOTHING else.
Ball in any caliber is also a terrible choice. .45 ball is no better than 9 or 40 ball.
Straight Shooter
11-19-14, 21:46
IF..FORCED to use one old school load..it would be .45ACP 230gr. Ball. NOTHING else.
Please read what I said..."IF...FORCED to use one old school load".
Also...you are factually DEAD WRONG about 45 ball being " no better" than9 or 40, but, that's an argument Im not inclined to get into, so you just have your opinion, Ill have mine.
davidjinks
11-19-14, 21:46
I used to carry Ranger 115 +P+ for many years. It was abundant and cheap and could be had online for ~180-200 dollars per case (Pre craziness political upheaval of course).
One day I got crazy and decided to do some home ballistic testing. Needless to say after that day I stopped carrying them. Without my book in front of me I can say penetration never exceeded 10", fragmentation of almost every round through the mediums I was using, horrible weight retention and many cases of jacket separation.
I switched to Ranger 124 grain +P for 9MM and Ranger 180 grain for 40 S&W.
Recently I switched to Gold Dots in 180 grain for 40 and 135 +P in 38 SPC. 9MM will be the next to be changed to Gold Dots 124 grain +P once the Rangers are exhausted.
Are there better options than what you have listed? Yes. Will what you have listed work? Yes, caveat to that is, shot placement. The ammunition you have listed perform horribly when barriers are encountered. There's always better.
YMMV when it comes to the ammo circle.
29784
29785
Federal 9BP, 115 grain standard pressure load.
29786
29787
29788
Remington L9mm1, 115 grain standard pressure load.
That's what I'm carrying on the mean streets. Anybody still packing old school?
ramairthree
11-19-14, 22:44
If I dig around my ammo stash I can come up with some Winchester Silver Tips in 9mm,
and some Black Talons.
Oh look, another ammo debate.
I don't see why someone would intentionally carry outdated defensive ammo when modern defensive ammo is readily available with demonstrably better terminal performance. Hell, you can find Critical Duty, HST, Gold Dots, and a lot of the other loads recommended by Doc Roberts (anyone remember him?) at the local sporting goods shop these days.
Oh look, another ammo debate.
I don't see why someone would intentionally carry outdated defensive ammo when modern defensive ammo is readily available with demonstrably better terminal performance. Hell, you can find Critical Duty, HST, Gold Dots, and a lot of the other loads recommended by Doc Roberts (anyone remember him?) at the local sporting goods shop these days.
I'd link to the DocGKR essays, but that'd probably get me banned. Haha. His stuff is still good reading. Of more recent note... read the memo from the FBI "justifying" their switch back to 9mm (http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/)... it's more of an info-memo to LE agencies in general though, IMHO.
Save those old loads for the museum of SD ammo history!
His stuff is still good reading.
And updated pretty regularly, to boot.
29784
29785
Federal 9BP, 115 grain standard pressure load.
29786
29787
29788
Remington L9mm1, 115 grain standard pressure load.
That's what I'm carrying on the mean streets. Anybody still packing old school?
I'd consider carrying those loads over hardball, but that's about it.
Okie John
And updated pretty regularly, to boot.
Yup.
Now, if someone still had a box of the old "Glaser Safety Slugs" that would be fun to mess around with... are those even still in production?
Yup.
Now, if someone still had a box of the old "Glaser Safety Slugs" that would be fun to mess around with... are those even still in production?
As far as I know you can still get them.
Regarding "old school" ammo---I've been around these parts for quite some time---I USED to carry such ammo back in the day---the Fed.115 9BP---I've carried both the Rem. 115 and 115+P---actually, still have a good bit of it (bought at old school prices!)---these modern times require moden ammo---Federal 115+P+, HSTs, GoldDots, etc. the stuff is out there and available---how many SD rounds do most people expend? Certainly not in a SD situation...
The only use I have for outdated/ obsolete ammo is range/plinking time or breaking in a new gun in that caliber. Life is way too short to NOT buy current premium ammo for EDC. Coincidentally, about two months ago I purchased a ton of odd ball/obsolete 9mm ammo from an old timer who was relocating and cutting down his collection. Some loads Ive never seen before and others were ok back in the day for EDC/defensive use but no longer relevant at all now. All of it however will go into the practice/plinking/ break-in pile even though it was kept in ideal conditions and in original factory boxes.
I don't see why someone would intentionally carry outdated defensive ammo when modern defensive ammo is readily available with demonstrably better terminal performance.
Without speaking to the mindset of the OP, I think that a lot of it has to do with the "Well, back in my day..." attitude. I encounter it a LOT at work (L.E.). No matter how much you point to well-founded research and cold hard facts, some people simply won't let go of "I've always used xxxx and never had a problem..."
If out of the new fangled SD loads in 45 acp I carry standard 45 acp 230 gr ball without much personal issue with it. I don't think it is a bad round in 45 acp, but there are better choices today in 45. I usually like to keep my mags loaded with Hornady Critical Defense loads though. HST if I can find them. In 9mm I only use 115 ball at the range otherwise its Hornady Critical Defense.
Defaultmp3
11-21-14, 12:41
I wonder if Uni-Vibe has any relation to Univibe...
Back to basics? 9mm?
Do you plan on using it to save your life from the depredations of nasty armed thugs?
There's only one: the cock and lock Browning Hi-Power 9mm.
That's the one to have with you when the fight starts.
I can assure y'all that I'm quite serious. Say what you will about the wonder gun of the month; when the fight starts on the mean streets of the big city, and a 9mm is the only thing between me and the medical examiner's knife, make mine a BHP.
I've had ZERO problems with old school ammo. But, I never shot anybody with it either. I'm fortunate to have a stash of the most modern defense ammo in standard caliber. Also I have a ton of the older premium ammo which shoots wonderfully in my pistols. I treasure it for its accuracy and reliability.
When we carry the 2 inch J frame(as I do), we should remember that velocity loss in the short barrel and cylinder gap may be giving us substandard performance comparable to 9mm old school ammo. Too, we're packing a 5 shooter requiring double action skills not common today. Without saying more, trade offs are the rule.
The_War_Wagon
11-21-14, 15:46
.45 Black Talons! :cool:
How old school do you want to get? I've got some hot (1100fps) 240gr hard-cast .44SPL. That load is almost a century old.
Disclaimer: I spend too much time reading the Cast Boolits board.
Combat_Diver
11-21-14, 21:21
How old school do you want to get? I've got some hot (1100fps) 240gr hard-cast .44SPL. That load is almost a century old.
Disclaimer: I spend too much time reading the Cast Boolits board.
Another member of Cast Boolits as most of my training ammo I cast. same log in.
CD
Another member of Cast Boolits as most of my training ammo I cast. same log in.
CD
Damn proud to know you.
Drifting Fate
11-22-14, 19:05
Despite some newbies' beliefs, those loads work as well today as they did when they were "the thing." They expand, they penetrate, they keep doing their thing, esp if one buys into the fact that HOW a bullet expands (hydro-static shock) doesn't matter. Are there better rounds in terms of barrier penetration, yes, but I've done my own testing on auto glass compared to "modern" rounds and the difference isn't as as big as one thinks.
I love Gold Dots, but 9BP and 9BPLE are still to be reckoned with.
SHOT PLACEMENT matters, and 9BP is amazingly accurate. The rest is symantics and marketing.
Despite some newbies' beliefs, those loads work as well today as they did when they were "the thing." They expand, they penetrate, they keep doing their thing, esp if one buys into the fact that HOW a bullet expands (hydro-static shock) doesn't matter. Are there better rounds in terms of barrier penetration, yes, but I've done my own testing on auto glass compared to "modern" rounds and the difference isn't as as big as one thinks.
I love Gold Dots, but 9BP and 9BPLE are still to be reckoned with.
SHOT PLACEMENT matters, and 9BP is amazingly accurate. The rest is symantics and marketing.
Spot on. I agree 100%.
those loads work as well today as they did when they were "the thing."
You more or less just justified the argument against continuing to carry dated ammunition.
My daughter carries 148 grain wadcutters in her S&W Model 60. She can place the rounds exactly where she wants to, and arthritis prevents her from shooting anything stouter.
I understand this is a special case, and I personally choose to carry "modern" defensive ammo in my firearms, but I certainly don't think anyone who chooses to carry anything less than the latest, most whiz-bang load is stupid.
The odds than the average civilian will have to draw a firearm in self defense are slim; the odds they will have to shoot are slimmer still. The odds that one's cartridge choice will make a life-or-death difference are so small as to be insignificant.
I wonder if those who castigate others for their ammo choices stop off at a convenience store every day to purchase lottery tickets. After all, *somebody* is going to win, right?
Psalms144.1
11-23-14, 12:41
There are some "old school" loads that still hold their own against more "modern" loadings - off the top of my head I'd be OK with street carry of the 230 gr Hydrashok in .45 ACP, 125 gr SJHP in .357, +P 158 gr LSWCHP in a wheelie, M193 55 gr 5.56mm in an AR, Brenneke slugs in a 12 ga. I'm sure there are a handful of other "classics" that can still stand up to new-fangled competitors.
Of course, neither of the OP's carry loads are in that category. There's a reason the .40 S&W was developed - because old standard pressure loads with old bullet design in 9mm led to marginal results. Unless there is absolutely NOTHING else available, I wouldn't carry either of those loads for serious purposes.
Regards,
Kevin
I still have a case of .45 Triton Quik-Shoks and a couple of boxes of .357 Black Talons that I'm always tempted to shoot.
ramairthree
11-24-14, 10:53
A better question might be,
what are the best one or two standard pressure and best one or two + loads in 9mm for defensive carry,
and
where are they sold in bulk/discount levels.
A better question might be,
what are the best one or two standard pressure and best one or two + loads in 9mm for defensive carry,
and
where are they sold in bulk/discount levels.
Until recently I was buying .45 ACP HST for like $32 a box of 50 from Streichers. They had 9mm as well. I don't know if they have any in stock right now, but when I need more HSTs, that's usually where I head.
Psalms144.1
11-24-14, 13:29
A better question might be,
what are the best one or two standard pressure and best one or two + loads in 9mm for defensive carry,
and
where are they sold in bulk/discount levels.No idea who has them, what price, or when they're available, but if I had any say in what went in my pistol (required to carry issue ammunition instead), I would carry Federal HST 147 gr for standard pressure; for +P I'd go with HST 124 gr, or Gold Dots in the same weight.
A better question might be,
what are the best one or two standard pressure and best one or two + loads in 9mm for defensive carry,
and
where are they sold in bulk/discount levels.
If you don't mind Old School for self-protection:
Federal 9BP is about $18 / 50 at Ammunition Depot.
Federal 9BPLE was about $20 / 50 there until they ran out.
Alpha Sierra
11-25-14, 08:05
I absolutely do not mind carrying old school loads in revolvers.
Remington's .38 Special +P 158 gr LSWCHP still has very few peers.
When it comes to .357 Magnum, the only thing better than the old school SJHP 125 gr loads are the newer 125 gr loads like Speer's Gold Dot and Hornady's XTP and FTX (Critical Defense). Those three are freaking wicked.
Howdy,
I use several types of "Ol' Skool" ammo like early 90's Era Win 175gr SilverTips in my Glock 20 10mm or Fed 230gr Hydra-Shok in my 1911A1 or Rem P&R 125gr JHP in a 4" Smith .38Special.
Paul
P.S. I also use a modified Weaver stance.
I buy the bulk pack Remington 115gr JHP and carry that-for me anything beats a FMJ and the stuff works 100% and goes where I point it in my M9.
I don't worry about having the latest "cop spec" ammo as I doubt I'll being doing cop things if I have to start shooting.
I also use Rio buckshot in my 12ga,again it works and goes where I point it.
I found some old 115gr silvertips left over from the 80s and blasted through those. Huge flames - just ridiculous. Makes me like the modern powder so much more. I hadn't realized just how far we had progressed.
I buy the bulk pack Remington 115gr JHP and carry that-for me anything beats a FMJ and the stuff works 100% and goes where I point it in my M9.
I don't worry about having the latest "cop spec" ammo as I doubt I'll being doing cop things if I have to start shooting.
I also use Rio buckshot in my 12ga,again it works and goes where I point it.
Krull's my kinda guy.
That's the L9mm1 load. I carry that or Federal 9BP. Old school standard pressure loads.
Krull's my kinda guy.
That's the L9mm1 load. I carry that or Federal 9BP. Old school standard pressure loads.
I tell you what while most talk down the older rounds I wonder how many have shot a living thing with the ones they sneer at? I haven't shot any humans but I have shot quite a few vermin with it-hasn't been a possum,coon,skunk or woodchuck yet that has gone anywhere after I tagged them with one of those L9mm1 shells.
From all kinds of pistols too,the round opens up enough to do significant damage.
I figger you put it in the right spot and somebody would have a very bad day ahead.
The only round I've seen that truly sucks is an kind of FMJ,though ANY solid sucks ass somewhat....that rabbit I shot with full power .44 magnum 240gr SWC that ran off :p
What I've observed is this:
First there was .45 230 grain ball. They said "They all fall to Ball. Just ask Jeff Cooper or those drug-addled Moros in the Phillipines, if you can find any still alive. This stuff is the ticket. Those old .38s? Moros never knew they were hit."
When Silvertip .45 came out, everybody was in awe. "Oh, they expand up to the size of garbage can lids, and stop PCP-fuelled bad guys in their tracks, one shot, no problem. Finally we have a pistol load that works. Ball? Makes a little hole, baddies don't even notice they're shot."
Then they came out with Hydra-shoks. "Oh, those Silvertips? Yesterday's news. They didn't do squat. But these, they produce guaranteed one shot stops. 3 inch barrel? No problem, they expand on contact with skin."
Then they came out with HST and Gold Dot. "Oh my gawd, these are thermonuclear death! Guaranteed one shot stops. Hydra Shock? They plug up if they even sniff one layer of Chinese denim. Expensive ball ammo is all they are."
Same for other calibers. 9mm? 9BP served LEOs well. ISP loads (115 +p+ from Federal, Winchester or Remington) was nuking the gangstas for the cops. Ah, but then they invented Gold Dot, HST etc and suddenly those old 115s wouldn't hurt a chipmunk.
Doubtless there'll be a bullet come out around 2016 that will make today's latest and greatest seem as antiquated and ineffective as a Ford Model T.
I'll stick with old-school carry loads. Worked then, work now.
Depending on your definition of old school, a lot of old school loads did NOT work, which is what led to the FBI spec.
People put down 200lb+ pigs with a .22LR. You cannot compare hunting to SD as the animal your hunting isn't trying to kill you, or hiding behind cars, walls, or wearing clothes. When they are trying to kill you people use large bore rifles (safari?).
Its science, the new stuff is significantly better. If decent ammo is too much $ for you, or you have an emotional attachment to the "good ole days" so be it. But pretending the old stuff is just as good is not correct.
Is the old stuff good enough? Probably, but then again I could probably live a whole life and never need a gun.
Ball in any caliber is also a terrible choice. .45 ball is no better than 9 or 40 ball.Yet stacks of dead Germans in WW1 and WW2, Japanese in WW2, Chinese/North Koreans in Korea etc. somehow flopped over when hit by it. Either our grandpas were extremely lucky or the stuff worked somehow.
As for me, in 9x19 I carry Lehigh Defense's 115 grain Controlled Fracture stuff at the moment. I got lucky and won a couple boxes as a door prize at a match I went to. NASTY stuff. I was using 115gr Hornady Z Max, but figured hey if I have the Lehigh I'll use that instead. In .40, 180 gr plain jane Winchester JHP white box which looks identical to prior years' PDX bullets at half the cost, so I'm good with that. .380 for the BUG it's 88 grain Remington whatever their current flavor of HP is. Don't presently own a .45 but want to.
Yea in the Ruger LCR357.
The wife keeps it with the 147 gr Hydra shok +p+. I prefer Remington .357 158 gr SJHP's.
If I end up burning through what we have I'll probably get the mild-.357 135 gr Gold Dot Short Barrel rounds. Other contenders would be the Hornady 125 gr .357 critical defense or more remington .357 158 gr SJHP's.
The 158 gr SJHP's expand fine in my informal testing as did the 147 gr Hydrashoks. And surprisingly so do Federal 180 gr SJHP's...weird.
People put down 200lb+ pigs with a .22LR. You cannot compare hunting to SD as the animal your hunting isn't trying to kill you, or hiding behind cars, walls, or wearing clothes. When they are trying to kill you people use large bore rifles (safari?).
If someone is hiding behind a car or wall I ain't hanging around-I'll be scooting my white little Flip butt outta dodge faster then you can say "shazam!"
Clothes? that's why I keep shooting,the idiot's going to get the idea to get the hell away from me..or die,whichever comes first.
I'm not a cop,there's no reason for me to get in a gun battle,I plan on firing a few shots and then it's over or I'm high tailing it the other way and calling the cops so they can do their job.
99% of that I can do with regular old JHP,plain vanilla.
If I start getting into shoot outs I'll upgrade.
Yet stacks of dead Germans in WW1 and WW2, Japanese in WW2, Chinese/North Koreans in Korea etc. somehow flopped over when hit by it. Either our grandpas were extremely lucky or the stuff worked somehow...
A lot of terrorist have been killed by 9mm ball as well. It still sucks.
If someone is hiding behind a car or wall I ain't hanging around-I'll be scooting my white little Flip butt outta dodge faster then you can say "shazam!"
What if you're pinned down? What if dude is between you and exit? What if he's engaging a loved one? There's a ridiculous number of variables.
Clothes? that's why I keep shooting,the idiot's going to get the idea to get the hell away from me..or die,whichever comes first.
I'm not a cop,there's no reason for me to get in a gun battle[better ammo ends the fight faster],I plan on firing a few shots and then it's over or I'm high tailing it the other way and calling the cops so they can do their job.
99% of that I can do with regular old JHP,plain vanilla. Whats regular and how is the new stuff not regular - its the same concept just with better process control and tweaked design.
If I start getting into shoot outs I'll upgrade.
That's fine. You don't have to justify it to me. Its worth $30 to me to have more options. YMMV.
Alpha Sierra
12-02-14, 05:30
Some old school loads probably sucked. Most of them performed very well then and perform very well now. Yes, people wore clothes back then too.
Modern ammo is not some magic talisman and older ammo is not worthless.
All my old HP ammo will be burned up in the G19 gen4 I am ordering-might as well use the stuff for practice. One round I found lying around (in an old G19 mag) was from 1989, the first box of ammo I ever bought!
My agency had two shootings when we had 9mm. our issue round was the 9bp. both were one stop shots drt. On one the round went through a windshield into the suspects chest and stayed within him. The other was a headshot. THe round worked. YMMV We have since evolved to 40 utilizing the 165 Gold Dot.
Maybe all of that Triton Quick-Shok that I stocked up in .45ACP might not have been a bad investment (they were only $13 per 50).
http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7649
I've still got a mag full of silver tips somewhere, probably in a 228 mag.
Yup.
Now, if someone still had a box of the old "Glaser Safety Slugs" that would be fun to mess around with... are those even still in production?
Responded to one shot at an auto parts store a few years ago. Several .45 acp casings laying about. The employee took one round in the left bicep, a through and through with equal entrance and exit wounds (most likely ball ammo). He also
complained of abdominal pain. When cutting his clothing off a gray powdery substance fell out. A glazer round had hit him in the belt buckle. Left a red welt on his lower abdomen. Lucky for him the robber used crap ammo.
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