View Full Version : 20" ARs
Does anyone miss the simplicity of the classic 20" barreled ARs? All you seem to see anymore are carbines and I guess I'm just wanting to be different and a little nostalgic too.
I'm looking for a nice M16A4 style rifle, no heavy barrel. I want 1/7 twist too. When I was looking at carbines I had it narrowed down to Colt or LMT.
I plan on keeping it simple, putting on a rail and either a scope or Aimpoint in the future. This will be a SHTF/plinking rifle.
Any recommendations? Thanks!
I wanted the better accuracy and comfort of a 20", so I just ordered a full rifle. I've never used a full size, so I'm looking forward to it.
I'm not sure what it is with everyone and their carbines. Nice to have one, but I definitely want a full size for the range.
So...whatcha gettin', exactly? You looking for a classic looking one, or a tacticool rifle? Doesn't seem like "simple" goes with "rail, aimpoint, etc."
I don't want a Bushmaster, but they do make one in the configuration I want.
When I first went in the ARMY in '92 I used a Colt A1 in basic, a Colt A2 on active duty, back to a Colt A1 when I first went in the Guard in '95 and a year later new FN A2s, and finally an M9 when I became a medic in '02. I was never issued an M4 but I've owned plenty of carbines. Fullsize ARs are what I'm mostly use to and thats what I want at this time. But who makes a decent one a civilian can buy?
FWIW, at my current job with the Feds we have Colt and H&R M16A1s and Colt M16A2s and carbines (they are marked M16A2 Carbine with M4 barrels but A1 uppers), and Colt 9mm SMGs.
I'd love a Colt or FN but they don't make civi versions of the one I want.
The 20" rifle is my favorite. I intend to build another one soon myself. If you want a complete factory rifle of good quality, here are some options:
http://www.sabredefence.com/commercial.php
http://www.charlesdalydefense.com/firearms.asp
http://prostores2.carrierzone.com/servlet/defensive-edgenet/Detail?no=286
http://www.afmfirearms.com/p-524-am15-a3-rifle.aspx
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=1159759&cat=32&
You may find it a challenge to locate a manufacturer that offers a TDP spec 20" though. Most seem to have 1/9 twist barrels and various other compromises. Sabre and CMMG are the only manufacturers that I could find offering a 1/7. If you can live with a heavy profile 1/9 twist, AFM seems to follow the TDP pretty close with MPI'd 4150 CMV barrel, MPI'd bolt, CMT LPK and proper staking throughout. They could probably source you a gov. profile 1/7 barrel if you ask. Also, they offer the best quality kits I have found if you have your own lower and want to save the 11% excise tax. They'll also assemble it for free for you. AFM is not very well known, as they are fairly new and don't advertise.
variablebinary
06-25-08, 03:59
I've always like 20" AR15's.
Sure they have fallen out of flavor with the cool kids, but they are kick ass fun to shoot.
I have a SAM-R or SDM build lingering in my future.
Aristogeiton
06-25-08, 09:28
I just finnished a M16A4 clone. It's not perfect and I haven't tested it enough, but it has won my heart over my other carbines! :D
I went with a Bushmaster Gov. Profile Barrel (1 in 9 twist) for the upper, Bushmaster A2 lower and a LMT bolt and carrier.
IMHO a 20" AR does a lot of things better than a carbine. It's extra size is a downfall, but I'm willing to work with that.
i think A4's are cool... the C7A2 from colt canada is a neat variant too with the collapsible stock...
Thanks for the tips guys, I have some more researchin' to do now.
You will have an extremely hard time finding the correct barrel.
You will have an extremely hard time finding the correct barrel.
The correct barrel for what? The OP wants a 1/7 Gov't profile barrel. That's extremely easy to find.
I assume you mean the "correct barrel" for an M16A4. Don't know 'bout that.
ThirdWatcher
06-25-08, 16:02
The original AR-15 (with lightweight barrel and no bump behind the ejection port) is the best looking version, IMHO. There is a certain beauty in simplicity.:)
The correct barrel for what? The OP wants a 1/7 Gov't profile barrel. That's extremely easy to find.
I assume you mean the "correct barrel" for an M16A4. Don't know 'bout that.
Point me in the direction please! My normal sources don't seem to have these...
Spooky
Bushmaster, Colt, LMT, RRA, and some other random manufacturers I can't think of.
Your dealer can't order you one? My dealer can't get any Colt, but the others aren't a problem.
I can't believe that Grant doesn't have 1/7 barrels.
Bushmaster, Colt, LMT, RRA, and some other random manufacturers I can't think of.
Your dealer can't order you one? My dealer can't get any Colt, but the others aren't a problem.
I can't believe that Grant doesn't have 1/7 barrels.
I'd really like to get a Colt or LMT... I just can't find a nice 1/7 20" Colt for a reasonable price. I don't think LMT makes barrels longer than 18" - at least I've never seen one. I'm going to stay away from RRA and might think about a Bushmaster. Sabre Defense is an option but I can't find where they sell 1/7 20" barrels. Honestly the market is not that great for government profile 1/7 20" barrels - as opposed to 14.5-16" barrels...
Spooky
I'd really like to get a Colt or LMT... Honestly the market is not that great for government profile 1/7 20" barrels - as opposed to 14.5-16" barrels...
Spooky
Exactly why I posted this topic.:)
You know, I just remembered....there was a guy on arfcom selling a super condition 20" Colt HBAR upper for $400 complete with BCG. Looked great from the pictures. Gotta wonder..
I would have risked it, but I didn't have it left over after ordering my new custom 20" rifle and ACOG.
The correct barrel for what? The OP wants a 1/7 Gov't profile barrel. That's extremely easy to find.
The M16A2 and M16A4 don't use the same barrel.
The M16A2 and M16A4 don't use the same barrel.
Right, like I said...if you're talking the A4, I have no idea.
The M16A2 and M16A4 don't use the same barrel.
I didn't realize there was a difference. What is it?
variablebinary
06-26-08, 03:46
I am thinking about building an A4 clone around a Sabre Barrel
Fitted with M4 Feed Ramps, Vanadium Government Contour Barrel, A2 Flash Hider, 1/7
Jay Cunningham
06-26-08, 04:06
I am curious, what is the big interest in the 20" guns here - is it just nostalgia?
:confused:
I didn't realize there was a difference. What is it?
I guess the F-FSB
other than that I cant think of any other differences
Jay Cunningham
06-26-08, 11:05
Why don't you like 'em?
I didn't say that I didn't like them.
However, they don't give you anything that a 16" middy doesn't, so that's why I wanted to understand the interest. If you say, "because I like them" or "because they're cool" those are indeed acceptable answers.
I appreciate the added weight, control, accuracy, and muzzle velocity of the 20" barrel.
Oh, and it's more fun.
Any appreciable difference in accuracy and muzzle velocity between the 16" and 20" barrels?
I can't tell you for sure on accuracy, other than it was noticeable to me. As for muzzle velocity, you get about 3200fps from a 20" vs. around 2850-2900fps from a 16". Particular models may vary.
I am curious, what is the big interest in the 20" guns here - is it just nostalgia?
:confused:
A lot of nostalgia really... As you also mention the differences between the 16" middy and 20" is really not a lot. I've got a set up currently with a Bushy HBAR and it is a little too front heavy for my liking...
Spooky
I am thinking about building an A4 clone around a Sabre Barrel
Fitted with M4 Feed Ramps, Vanadium Government Contour Barrel, A2 Flash Hider, 1/7
Where are these barrels for sale at?
Spooky
A lot of nostalgia really... As you also mention the differences between the 16" middy and 20" is really not a lot. I've got a set up currently with a Bushy HBAR and it is a little too front heavy for my liking...
Spooky
If you've got an A2 stock, put a counterweight in there. That's what they're for. :D
If you've got an A2 stock, put a counterweight in there. That's what they're for. :D
I'm running an A1 stock because it isn't as long...
Also, in a couple classes I took I found that I shoot lighter rifles better (tricked out M4 style versus bare-bones AK74).
Spooky
I didn't say that I didn't like them.
However, they don't give you anything that a 16" middy doesn't, so that's why I wanted to understand the interest. If you say, "because I like them" or "because they're cool" those are indeed acceptable answers.
I miss the 20" barrel for various reasons:
1. They are cool
2. I like them
3. I believe they are a little more reliable than the carbines. Also, more accurate and offer improved performance...maybe not that much but somewhat better in any case.
4. Everybody and their sister have carbines and I would like something different.
5. I am not a tactical guy, nor do I play one on TV.
6. I do not like middies
7. I want something I can keep light and simple (yes the 6520 is light and simple too...and very sweet)
8. I do not clear buildings or rooms for a living, nor do I expect to have to do this any time soon....so compactness does not really make much of a difference to me
9. Full size rifles feel better to me
10. I can use a bayonet on a 20" barrel and not that much with a 16" barrel unless I haveone of those middies which I do not like to begin with.
With that said, I will concede that there are some advantages to the carbine just not for what I need it. Regardless I will probbaly end up with a carbine as well at some point
platypusREX
07-04-08, 23:24
The M16A2 and M16A4 don't use the same barrel.
You mean FSB.
You mean FSB.
since they use a different FSB I think the m16a2 and a4 barrel assemblies have2 different NSNs
I guess this is what Scottryan meant
Battl3fr0nt
07-05-08, 07:07
Well I like 16" and 20" myself.. My next rifle will be a 20" but I do like my 16" its an Armalite Middy.. I find it to be the best gas system, its very smooth.. I will prolly get a Armalite 20" and put a the EOTech 557.4X MPO Multi Purpose Optic Holographic System.. I like fast short to long range shooting so this will be very good for that or I might put Another TA31F like I have on my Armalite Middy 16"HBAR.. I find the ACOG to the the fastest Optic for all around use.. But I know I will be getting a 20" as my next if not a 16" I never shoot past 600 yards so a 16" is good for me but still I know a 20" will help some at any range..
I miss the 20" barrel for various reasons:
1. They are cool
2. I like them
3. I believe they are a little more reliable than the carbines. Also, more accurate and offer improved performance...maybe not that much but somewhat better in any case.
4. Everybody and their sister have carbines and I would like something different.
5. I am not a tactical guy, nor do I play one on TV.
6. I do not like middies
7. I want something I can keep light and simple (yes the 6520 is light and simple too...and very sweet)
8. I do not clear buildings or rooms for a living, nor do I expect to have to do this any time soon....so compactness does not really make much of a difference to me
9. Full size rifles feel better to me
10. I can use a bayonet on a 20" barrel and not that much with a 16" barrel unless I haveone of those middies which I do not like to begin with.
With that said, I will concede that there are some advantages to the carbine just not for what I need it. Regardless I will probbaly end up with a carbine as well at some point
I am seriously thinking of getting a 20" AR instead of a carbine for many of the same reasons listed above. I know I'll most likely be getting both a rifle and carbine eventually, but I'm thinking the 20" rifle may actually suit my current needs better.
Does anyone miss the simplicity of the classic 20" barreled ARs? All you seem to see anymore are carbines and I guess I'm just wanting to be different and a little nostalgic too.
I'm looking for a nice M16A4 style rifle, no heavy barrel. I want 1/7 twist too. When I was looking at carbines I had it narrowed down to Colt or LMT.
I plan on keeping it simple, putting on a rail and either a scope or Aimpoint in the future. This will be a SHTF/plinking rifle.
Any recommendations? Thanks!
I think the M4 Carbine setup was developed in response to different combat/application situations. Much easier to manuver with a carbine and collapsed stock in a squad car, then a full size. The shooting patterns are also changing. Many departments really stress "cutting the pie" when taking corners, and those extra inches out front make a convenient hand hold for someone to grab the firearm. The M4 is also easier to use in tanks, and when going in with parachutes. Yes you sacrifice a bit of accuracy; for nearly all urban settings now, the planned range is within 150 yards. In that distance, the accurracy difference isn't significant enough to matter. You will still find a couple of the platforms in the departments with the 20" barrels, for those situations demanding higher accurracy at longer distances.
i'm compromising and going with the 16" barrel and adjustable stock.
Barrel length doesn't have anything to do with accuracy, that's a fallacy. To steal a quote from someone. "Intrinsic accuracy is a matter of quality, not length."
In the AR platform barrel length affects sight radius, velocity and thus effective range.
I would like to see someone offer a nice 20in 1/7 twist milspec barrel with an A2 upper. I'd like to replace my old Colt AR-15A2 I sold off in the mid 90's for some unknown reason.
Battl3fr0nt
07-06-08, 00:27
[QUOTE=joe_sun;187541]Barrel length doesn't have anything to do with accuracy, that's a fallacy. To steal a quote from someone. "Intrinsic accuracy is a matter of quality, not length." QUOTE]
Well it can in alot of many ways.. Even as simple as somthing like having a 4" barrel on a pistol then moving to a 7" barrel.. you will notice a difference in ease of aiming.. Accurcacy is not all about the gun it is about the shooter to.. It affects the range most but there are other things it will affect to.. I use a 16" non match HBAR and I get under 1" groups at 100 yards with my Armalite Middy.. That is on my good days and when I am using good ammo.. I pull off 1" group's 80% of the time with UltraMax 62gr or Prvi 62gr FMJ but I found that Prvi 75gr BTHP Match ammo will give me my best groups along with 69gr BTHP Match.. But They rounds just cost to much so I stick with UltraMax 62gr most of the time.. 1"-1.5" groups are good enuff for me.. and I found out of all the barrel lenths I like a soild 16" the best.. Perfect for 600 yards with 62gr and if you put some good match ammo in it you can get it out to 800+ with ease.. 14.5" Barrels are nice if you are going to be doing alot of close range stuff and never need to pass 600yds.. and a 20" would be good for doing alot of shooting past 400 yards.. a 24 is best for 800-1200 yds.. But the avg shooter will pretty much be around 25 yards to 600 yards with an AR.. so I find the best for the avg shooter is a 16".. and it can be about luck I never would have thot my Armalite would shoot sub moa with match ammo and it being a 1/9 twist.. some people will say you need a 1/8 for 73gr+ but I shoot 75gr best with my 1/9.. It is pretty much due to the fact some 1/9 barrels are closer to 1/8 and some are closer to 1/10.. if you buy a "good" rifle you have a better chance of getting a 1/9 that will shoot heavy rounds but it still is not about that... it is pretty much just luck.. Unless you buy a match rifle/Barrel then you dont know if you will get sub moa.. but it will be around 1" for sure not any higher then 1.5" in most cases..
Battl3fr0nt
07-06-08, 00:31
I am seriously thinking of getting a 20" AR instead of a carbine for many of the same reasons listed above. I know I'll most likely be getting both a rifle and carbine eventually, but I'm thinking the 20" rifle may actually suit my current needs better.
A middy gas system is the best you can get besides a piston.. and for that I will be waiting for the ACR.. I have never had any probs Car lenth gas systems give alot of people.. Middy is not that new but it is the newest and I see more and more people going for them..
So if I want a complete 20" AR with basic A2 stock and I'd like to keep the price under $1K, what are my best options?
Checking out various websites, it looks like the CMMG M10, Stag Model 4, Bushmaster Dissipator, Armalite 15A2 Service Model & DPMS Panther Classic fall into my price range.
Are any of these stand outs (or better off avoided)? :cool:
I like 20" also. I have a Colt sporter M-16 type as well as a 14.5 M-4. In fact I am now in the initial process of building another 20" but with a twist. I have a Colt barrrel, CMT flat-top upper and BCM BCG as of now. But I want a collapable M-4 type butt stock (as opposed to an A2 full stock). I think that would be cool to do. I want to buy a CD complete lower to finish this project.
So if I want a complete 20" AR with basic A2 stock and I'd like to keep the price under $1K, what are my best options?
Checking out various websites, it looks like the CMMG M10, Stag Model 4, Bushmaster Dissipator, Armalite 15A2 Service Model & DPMS Panther Classic fall into my price range.
Are any of these stand outs (or better off avoided)? :cool:
Defensive Edge 'SLR15 Classic Rifles' seem to fit the budget, and I have heard great things about Sully-built rifles. They are chrome-lined gov't profile 1/9 barrels.
I currently have a carbine (6920) and 20" A2 Frankenrifle with a 1/7 gov't profile barrel. I'm still trying to decide if I should spend money on yet another AR-15, and if so, a carbine or a rifle, or if I should worry about learning to shoot those two as well as I possibly can. :D It's a terrible and expensive hobby we have...
PALADIN-hgwt
07-13-08, 20:58
xxxxx
Defensive Edge 'SLR15 Classic Rifles' seem to fit the budget, and I have heard great things about Sully-built rifles. They are chrome-lined gov't profile 1/9 barrels.
Thanks for that info Bob. Looks like Sully's rifles are well regarded even though they're not on the comparison chart.
I'm trying to figure out what makes up the $200 difference between the Level 1 & Level 2 Classic. Chrome barrel lining, one piece gas ring and black extractor insert seem to be it.
Isn't a chrome-lined bore primarily to protect from using corrosive ammo, or is there another good reason to want one? :cool:
Do the 16" and 20" Classic both use a middy gas tube?
I went with a Sabre Defence XR-15A2. It fit your bill perfectly:
Chrome-lined 1/9 govt. barrel
PROPERLY staked gas-key
CLEAN/CRISP mil-spec trigger (oxy-moron, and yes, it's "heavy", but crisp means more to me than light).
Cycles Military-classic wolf all day
Black buffer/5-coil spring extractor
When I have a good day, Winchester M855 will shoot a hair over 2 MOA at 100 yards off of the arm of a lawn-chair kneeling for 5- shot groups.
Another impressive thing is that Sabre test-fires all of their rifles:WITHOUT LUBE, for 10-shots. Dunno, I just found that impressive.
Things I recommend doing/not doing:
FSC556 comp, it supresses flash better than an A2 hider and does a decent to good job of reducing "up", while slightly reducing "back".
Enidine Buffer: It made my rifle unreliable when gummy/dirty or using lower-power ammo
PRI Gas-Buster, yeah, you COULD make your own...or buy one. Either way, it performs EXACTLY as advertised.
If you go the Sabre Defence route, Robert at www.talonarms.com (www.talonarms.com)would be the guy to buy from. He has been nothing but spectacular to deal with in my own experience.
I didn't say that I didn't like them.
However, they don't give you anything that a 16" middy doesn't, so that's why I wanted to understand the interest. If you say, "because I like them" or "because they're cool" those are indeed acceptable answers.
I like them because the impingment system is built the way that Eugine Stoner designed it for the large part, and reliability reflects this. I also like the added velocity and sight radius.
I like 20" also. I have a Colt sporter M-16 type as well as a 14.5 M-4. In fact I am now in the initial process of building another 20" but with a twist. I have a Colt barrrel, CMT flat-top upper and BCM BCG as of now. But I want a collapable M-4 type butt stock (as opposed to an A2 full stock). I think that would be cool to do. I want to buy a CD complete lower to finish this project.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/xcibes/AR15A2-01.jpg
Canadians issue a rifle with the colapsible stock like this. I did not like it like that. felt unbalanced
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/xcibes/AR15A2-01.jpg
Canadians issue a rifle with the colapsible stock like this. I did not like it like that. felt unbalanced
Wow, thats it! I was wondering what it would look like and thoughts and comments of one. I can see it possibly being "unbalanced".... Maybe I should do something different? Looks cool though!
platypusREX
07-17-08, 00:01
since they use a different FSB I think the m16a2 and a4 barrel assemblies have2 different NSNs
I guess this is what Scottryan meant
Understood.
A square 10
07-19-08, 22:26
i may be nostalgic , not at all sure , i say that because one of my favorites is my retro --67-69 M16A1
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles026.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles025.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles027.jpg
but having said that i do enjoy shooting the '20' with ACOG
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles003.jpg
and the short version with EOTECH
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles005.jpg
but im not adverse to the bigger-older as well
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles001-1.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/FN-FAL004.jpg
Charles Daly
07-19-08, 23:27
Within the next 4-6 weeks, Charles Daly Defense will start shipping our new model, the D-MCA4 (Daly-Marine Corps A4). It will be the semi-auto AR version of the Colt M16A4.
MIL-B-11595E, (some refer to it as 4150, but you know, it's not really...)
20" Govt profile (light under handguards); chrome lined
1:7 twist
Forged F FSB w/bayonet lug and rubber covered sling swivel
A2 Birdcage suppressor
T-Marked Flattop upper with A3 detachable carry handle
A2 Buttstock
Colt style M16 handguards
Just like this, only semi-auto: Colt M16A4 (http://www.colt.com/mil/M16.asp)
Any questions, let me know. Prices and specs will be announced on our CD Defense and CD Forum websites in the next few days.
Sincerely,
If you offered just the A4 upper, you'd have lots of buyers for it RIGHT NOW.
In fact, I don't know anybody offering such a thing for less than $700, other than CMMG.
Charles Daly
07-20-08, 01:03
If you offered just the A4 upper, you'd have lots of buyers for it RIGHT NOW.
In fact, I don't know anybody offering such a thing for less than $700, other than CMMG.
Yes, I meant to add, we will be offering the complete rifles and complete uppers.
Within the next 4-6 weeks, Charles Daly Defense will start shipping our new model, the D-MCA4 (Daly-Marine Corps A4). It will be the semi-auto AR version of the Colt M16A4.
MIL-B-11595E, (some refer to it as 4150, but you know, it's not really...)
20" Govt profile (light under handguards); chrome lined
1:7 twist
Forged F FSB w/bayonet lug and rubber covered sling swivel
A2 Birdcage suppressor
T-Marked Flattop upper with A3 detachable carry handle
A2 Buttstock
Colt style M16 handguards
Just like this, only semi-auto: Colt M16A4 (http://www.colt.com/mil/M16.asp)
Any questions, let me know. Prices and specs will be announced on our CD Defense and CD Forum websites in the next few days.
Sincerely,
That is great! An M16A4 clone is exactly what I decided I want, but I was having trouble finding one that meets all the right specs. I was really hoping that you guys would produce such a rifle. In fact I think I even asked you about it awhile back. It's sure is refreshing to see a company that actually listens to their customers/potential customers and produces what they really want.
The 20" AR cannot be classified as "retro" seeing that it is in current front line use as the M16A4.
http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/may2005/photoessays/p050405a1.jpg
20" rifles offer better fragmentation at all ranges, which is important when dealing with our "magical" .22 cal bullet. The 20" AR also offers better range and sight radius than shorter barrels. Shorter barrels are more convenient, and that's about it.
Probably less than 1% of posters on this forum deploy their rifles from vehicles or clear rooms with them. 94% dream about it every day and buy accordingly. The remaining 5% of us understand that the ability to kill at distance is the true benefit of the rifle. Some of us own a great of land and live out in the country. We enjoy the ability to reach out and touch things with a good, all around rifle. For us, the 20" AR is everything we want or need.
I think the Canadians got it right with the C7A2.
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6246/ka2006r106aaxl8.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee138/kingjeff52/c7a2.jpg
Imagine a 20" Sabre Defence (SKU 90221) 1/7 barreled rifle with ACOG and a Magpul CTR stocked lower. That would be a great package.
http://www.sabredefence.com/products/barrel/a4_barrel.jpg
http://www.sabredefence.com/commercial.php
You mean FSB.
The FSB is a part of the barrel and can't be changed.
Here is the M16A2/A4 hybrid that I carried on my last contract. It started as a beat up M16A2. Some Marine friends hooked me up with a flat top upper and KAC rail system. I swapped everything over at the site and then took out that silly 3rd burst making it full-auto. I added the Surefire M900, ACOG, and pistol grip. It was a good shooter and accurate.
1115
Charles Daly
07-20-08, 17:35
I think I might have asked this before so forgive me if I did, but I want to make sure I get this build right the first time.
Does the M16A4 have M4 Feedramps? I'm under the impression that they are not used on rifles. Is that correct?
I want our D-MCA4 to be as authentic as possible to Marine Corps issue (albeit in semi-auto), so your comments will be welcome on this last remaining detail.
Thanks for your help,
Michael
It doesn't, but that promotes diseconomies of scale. In other words, it really doesn't make sense to me to buy and stock both kinds of uppers.
If your getting into the musket business, how about a 20 inch 1/7 lightweight with a slickside flat top upper?
Within the next 4-6 weeks, Charles Daly Defense will start shipping our new model, the D-MCA4 (Daly-Marine Corps A4). It will be the semi-auto AR version of the Colt M16A4.
MIL-B-11595E, (some refer to it as 4150, but you know, it's not really...)
20" Govt profile (light under handguards); chrome lined
1:7 twist
Forged F FSB w/bayonet lug and rubber covered sling swivel
A2 Birdcage suppressor
T-Marked Flattop upper with A3 detachable carry handle
A2 Buttstock
Colt style M16 handguards
Just like this, only semi-auto: Colt M16A4 (http://www.colt.com/mil/M16.asp)
Any questions, let me know. Prices and specs will be announced on our CD Defense and CD Forum websites in the next few days.
Sincerely,
Very interesting! I think I'll hold off on any decision to build an upper from scratch until these enter the market...:D
Charles Daly
07-20-08, 21:45
It doesn't, but that promotes diseconomies of scale. In other words, it really doesn't make sense to me to buy and stock both kinds of uppers.
If your getting into the musket business, how about a 20 inch 1/7 lightweight with a slickside flat top upper?
We're already stocking uppers with and without feedramps. Our current A2 rifle (DR-15) and our Match/Target (DV-24) models are without feedramps.
So back to the original question. If I want authenticity, does the USMC M16A4 come with or without M4 Feedramps?
Sorry, but no slicksides planned right now. I have to get the new lightweights, middy's, A4, 6.8 and 6.5G out (plus the FDE model shown on our homepage) before I will consider any other new stuff right now. Our plate got very full all of the sudden.
And another little secret, our entry into the polymer framed striker fired pistol market is undergoing T&E this week!
So, tell me about the A4 please....
From what I understand the M16A4 does not have feed ramps but in todays market you would probably sell more if you include the M4 ramps.
Hello.
I vote for anodized M4 Feedramps as well... But simply from a versatility stand point, meaning that one could rebarrel it later on with a quality mid-length or carbine barrel that comes standard with an M4 ramped extension.
That being said, I can & do live just fine with the rifle ramps on my A2's...
I already said that it doesn't. ;)
Jay Cunningham
07-21-08, 00:30
And another little secret, our entry into the polymer framed striker fired pistol market is undergoing T&E this week!
Not to derail this thread but please release this pistol with:
aggressively textured grips
steel sights (not three dots, either) with a night sight option (Warrens would be nice)
a 4 to 5 lb. trigger with a distinct reset
Everyone seems to do the above to every service pistol that they buy at a minimum.
:cool:
Along the same line as the feedramp question,
I appreciate the thoughts behind authenticity (nostalgia, retro, whatever), but still struggle to understand how the gov't profile benefits other than being able to mount a grenade launcher. I'd prefer an improved contour like Noveske's, which puts the steel where it has real benefit: near the chamber. Why would you want extra steel between the FSB and muzzle?
That said, please offer a standard (lightweight) barrel. Some contour with extra steel near the chamber would be nice. That WAS spec and, nostalgic though it is, I'd buy one myself.
I think a lot of folks would buy one because it's very close to what the military uses. Imperfections or not, that's a huge stamp of approval to many gun buyers.
I don't know if the Marine Corps has "ramps" or not, but I would include them as it would give the purchaser the option of changing things if they so desired.
I wish you success.
Terry.
I'd go with the feedramps as well, What about the BCG?? Chromed lined carrier and key? is the bolt SP, HP, MP??? I'm interested in this rifle...pretty much what I'm looking for.. Add the feedramps and a spec BCG and I'd say it was good to go..
Charles Daly
07-21-08, 20:31
I'd go with the feedramps as well, What about the BCG?? Chromed lined carrier and key? is the bolt SP, HP, MP??? I'm interested in this rifle...pretty much what I'm looking for.. Add the feedramps and a spec BCG and I'd say it was good to go..
OK, it's decided. M4 Feedramps are in our A4! Thanks for everybody's feedback.
As for the BCG, all of our's are chrome lined.
As for testing, currently, all barrels are MPI'd and batch HPT. Bolts are batch MPI and batch HPT.
(Not to toot our own horn too loudly here, but we tell it like it is. There are many makers/assemblers that claim every bolt and barrel are tested, and they mark their products accordingly, but we know for a fact they only do batch testing. I am not naming names, but I hate the fact that we will lose points on the chart for our honesty.)
Having said all that, we are seriously evaluating the testing of every bolt and barrel instead of batch testing. If we were to do this we would have to pass along a 3-4% price increase. What say you?
Paladin4415
07-21-08, 20:33
To the best of my knowledge the M16A4 does not come with "M4" feedramps. Which is probably why they don't call them "M16" feedramps. :p
M4 feed ramps were designed to help the M4 carbine run reliably in full auto. It would be silly to add them on to the more reliable rifle.
Charles Daly
07-21-08, 21:10
M4 feed ramps were designed to help the M4 carbine run reliably in full auto. It would be silly to add them on to the more reliable rifle.
OK, it was decided....or not......:confused:
I don't want to look stupid for including a totally unnecessary feature...
although that can be said about including them in a semi-auto carbine.
We include them in the carbine because consumers want them, or think they need them. The same reasoning could apply to the rifle. Unnecessary, but consumers may want them, or think they need them... and buy the CD over a competitor because it has them.... or buy a competitor's over a CD because only a fool would put them in a rifle...so what other foolish things did CD include?
Ahhhhh, the ramblings of a producer with BRD...
They do not add that much to the production cost...
:confused:
Paladin4415
07-21-08, 21:15
I can't think of any manufacturer that uses them with a rifle length gas system. Anybody else know of one?
CMMG.
Sabre Defence.
Noveske.
Bushmaster?
biodegraded
07-21-08, 21:43
Having said all that, we are seriously evaluating the testing of every bolt and barrel instead of batch testing. If we were to do this we would have to pass along a 3-4% price increase. What say you?
Would that be 3-4% of the bolts and barrels only or of the entire rifle? 3% of, say, $250 for bolt and barrel is ~$7 whereas 4% of a, say, $1200 rifle is ~$50. Few would balk at a seven buck difference for a gain in quality assurance, but I expect you'd loose sales over fifty bucks.
Regarding the M4 feedramps, they may not help feed reliability in a rifle length system, but I can't see how they'd hurt it either. Including them would gain a check in some people's list of desirables at the expense of "lack of authenticity" in other people's lists. I personally don't care either way, but I suspect many other people do care. I can't begin to guess which is the larger and more committed group.
I'm glad I'm a techno wage earner instead of a marketing and product development manager. Good luck.
I don't care one way or the other about M4 feed ramps, but if you include them I don't see how it would do any harm. Besides, as was already pointed out, there are several companies already offering 20" rifles with M4 feed ramps.
My main concerns are with the BCG, barrel, and that it's all properly assembled(no canted FSB, no out of spec mag well, etc.)
The BCG, and barrel have already been addressed by CD, and I haven't heard any negative reports about CD's quality of assembly or fit and finish. In fact, everything I've read about CD's AR offerings has been very good. I'm sure this will continue with their new offerings.
Would you mind clarifying this? Even though they have different NSN's I have not seen a difference between the two and as a matter of fact we converted alot of M16A2's to the M16A4 config. The package called for a flat top upper, rail system and detachable carrying handle. That was it.
The M16A2 and M16A4 don't use the same barrel.
I pretty much agree with 7.62mmFMJ above, My main concerns are BCG, barrel (type of twist, type of steel, Etc,)correct mag well, no canted FSB and CD seems to have that covered, another $50 to the cost of the rifle for a bolt that was shot peened, HP tested and MP'd ? That's cheaper than buying a replacement that is. The feedramps may not be "authentic", but they do offer the customer a upper receiver that is flexable,should he decide down the road to swap barrels out to a carbine legnth or shorter, the receiver is already set up for it, cutting his conversion costs down. In my case, this offering from CD really has me thinking, I like 20" bbls and also like Gov't profile barrels, I have a older Bushmaster that has one, I replaced the BCG With one from Grant. and it runs fine, I just wish it had 1/7 twist, and the barrel to be made from the correct grade of steel. This rifle from CD has all I'm looking for. It also looks as if it would do well on the infamous Comparision Chart. The detactable carry handle is another option I could use..Since I'm on a budget (like everyone else here)I feel I could use the sights on the carry handle until funds were available to buy either a Eco tech or possibly a Acog..Any way, I'd have a useable rifle out of the box with out the need to buy anything else to start using it..
Would you mind clarifying this? Even though they have different NSN's I have not seen a difference between the two and as a matter of fact we converted alot of M16A2's to the M16A4 config. The package called for a flat top upper, rail system and detachable carrying handle. That was it.
Hello,
While the barrels would basically be the same, the difference would be in the FSB's... A2 Barrel = Std. FSB & A4 Barrel = .040 Taller "F" Height-FSB... Correct?
If so, then didn't you have to raise (un-screw) the front sight post approximately .040" or install the .040 taller post in order to achive ZERO when you used an A2 barrel in an A4 upper w/carry handle??? Assuming of course, that it was a ColtŪ handle (or one made to their spec's) and not an after market with the incorrect shorter shelf where the rear sight assembly sit's.
Actually the rifles in question were FN guns and I assume the carrying handles were the same. These were all military weapons. To the best of my knowledge there was only one type of front sight post being used. As a matter of fact the TM clearly shows one sight post being used on the M16A2/A3/A4 as well as the M4/M4A1 carbine.
Hello,
While the barrels would basically be the same, the difference would be in the FSB's... A2 Barrel = Std. FSB & A4 Barrel = .040 Taller "F" Height-FSB... Correct?
If so, then didn't you have to raise (un-screw) the front sight post approximately .040" or install the .040 taller post in order to achive ZERO when you used an A2 barrel in an A4 upper w/carry handle??? Assuming of course, that it was a ColtŪ handle (or one made to their spec's) and not an after market with the incorrect shorter shelf where the rear sight assembly sit's.
Actually the rifles in question were FN guns and I assume the carrying handles were the same. These were all military weapons. To the best of my knowledge there was only one type of front sight post being used. As a matter of fact the TM clearly shows one sight post being used on the M16A2/A3/A4 as well as the M4/M4A1 carbine.
Hello,
Yes, I know the same front sight post is used on the M16A2/A3/A4, it's the two FSB's that are different, ie. Std. FSB for A2 Uppers & "F" Heigth FSB for A3/A4 & M4's.
When I mentioned the taller front sight post in my original question, I was referring to the one that Bushmaster sells for the guys that are using Std. FSB's with a Colt spec'ed detachable carry handle and/or BUIS that were designed heigth-wise for use with the taller F-FSB. Sorry for not stating that to begin with, but I figured you already knew the one I meant.
Bob,
Don't think that I am being confrontational but in the TM the barrel assy. for the M16A2 and M16A3 are the same. The M16A4 is different. Front sight bases are not able to be ordered separately only the barrel assy. can be ordered through FEDLOG.
Hello,
Yes, I know the same front sight post is used on all the above mentioned weapons, it's the two FSB's that are different, ie. Std. FSB for A2 Uppers & "F" Heigth FSB for A3/A4 & M4's.
When I mentioned the taller front sight post in my original question, I was referring to the one that Bushmaster sells for the guys that are using Std. FSB's with a Colt spec'ed detachable carry handle and/or BUIS that were designed heigth-wise for use with the taller F-FSB. Sorry for not stating that to begin with, but I figured you already knew the one I meant.
Bob,
Don't think that I am being confrontational but in the TM the barrel assy. for the M16A2 and M16A3 are the same. The M16A4 is different. Front sight bases are not able to be ordered separately only the barrel assy. can be ordered through FEDLOG.
Hello & don't worry, I don't feel that your being confrontational. And please don't think that I'm trying to be either, cause I'm not.
I just figured that you would of had problems when trying to Zero after installing an A2 barrel assembly w/Std. FSB in an A4 upper due to the heigth differences mentioned in my other post.
Again, don't worry, cause there's no hard feelings here.
Bob
I went with a 20" A3 as my first and currently only AR. I had a thing for the 20" and I still do, there's something about that long barrel that's just visually appealing and for my purposes just fine.
Bob,
At the time I think I had a YHM BUIS on it and I had no problem getting it zeroed. I don't remember anyone else having problems either after we swapped them over and all of those guys had to zero after we were done.
Hello & don't worry, I don't feel that your being confrontational. And please don't think that I'm trying to be either, cause I'm not.
I just figured that you would of had problems when trying to Zero after installing an A2 barrel assembly w/Std. FSB in an A4 upper due to the heigth differences mentioned in my other post.
Again, don't worry, cause there's no hard feelings here.
Bob
Why don't you like 'em?
I don't like them because I live in a world of vehicles and buildings and they handle like a telephone pole compared to a 16" or less carbine.
Failure2Stop
07-24-08, 09:14
Why don't you like 'em?
I am not a fan of 20" guns with A2 stocks.
I have used them for a long time.
I do not like them due to the fact that they (A2s) were designed around gear-free target shooting. The A4s were a half-hearted attempt to correct the deficiencies noted in the A2s and were almost, but not quite completely, totally unsuccessful in the endeavor.
My use revolves around movement, body-armor, extended periods of carrying the gun, vehicles, confined spaces, non-traditional shooting positions, bolted on crap, and cramped transport. Smaller guns outperform the fence-post in these conditions.
The biggest issue in my experience is the lack of length of pull adjustment. I do not like the feel of 20" guns with collapsible stocks. The UBR might be OK, but I haven't tried it out yet. Not only does length of pull affect the ability to properly mount the rifle, in a combative stance it also pulls the head away from the sights, forcing the shooter to "turtle head" forward to the optic (especially noticable with ACOGs).
I can shoot an iron-sighted A2/A4 very accurately (and prefer them for KD qualification). I can almost meet that performance with an M4. With optics they perform the same in the practical accuracy department. The bigger guns shoot softer and with increased reliability over the M4, but that reliability is moot if you can't readily bring the weapon to bear in a bad place with all your kit on. The SASR is an awesome piece of machinery as well, but is ill suited for most things I need a gun to do, regardless of it's effectiveness on target.
If somebody wants one just because they want one, great. I have bought guns for the same reason. I fully understand that most people do not care about the same things that I do, and are more interested in just shooting at stuff or rounding out a collection. That's fine. I just find it odd that people go to such lengths to justify a choice (most of which are irrelevat due to ammo selection, optics, etc) when it is really just "because".
Switching back to the A2/A4 from the M4 or a personal middie always makes me feel like I am doing something fundamentally wrong.
But that's just me.
AnimalMother556
07-24-08, 18:29
Hate the length, love the look and they're so damn soft shootin.
AnimalMother556
07-24-08, 18:37
OK, it was decided....or not......:confused:
I don't want to look stupid for including a totally unnecessary feature...
although that can be said about including them in a semi-auto carbine.
We include them in the carbine because consumers want them, or think they need them. The same reasoning could apply to the rifle. Unnecessary, but consumers may want them, or think they need them... and buy the CD over a competitor because it has them.... or buy a competitor's over a CD because only a fool would put them in a rifle...so what other foolish things did CD include?
Ahhhhh, the ramblings of a producer with BRD...
They do not add that much to the production cost...
:confused:
Just my opinion, but M4 ramps will do nothing to hurt function and may help if your using worn out mags. M4 ramps aren't a deal breaker for me, but given the decision between the 2, I'll always take the ramps. While I'm at it, get those lightweight middies out so I can buy 1.
Rogueplayer
07-24-08, 19:05
Just finished
Converted a Colt HBAR: 20" FN gov't profile barrel, Colt receiver with rifle feedramps and LMT BCG.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w77/rogueplayer/DSC_0003.jpg
OK, it was decided....or not......:confused:
I don't want to look stupid for including a totally unnecessary feature...
although that can be said about including them in a semi-auto carbine.
We include them in the carbine because consumers want them, or think they need them. The same reasoning could apply to the rifle. Unnecessary, but consumers may want them, or think they need them... and buy the CD over a competitor because it has them.... or buy a competitor's over a CD because only a fool would put them in a rifle...so what other foolish things did CD include?
Ahhhhh, the ramblings of a producer with BRD...
They do not add that much to the production cost...
:confused:
Any deviation on the ramps from the USGI pattern for your 20" rifle will lose a sale from me and any other serious user.
AnimalMother556
07-24-08, 22:23
Any deviation on the ramps from the USGI pattern for your 20" rifle will lose a sale from me and any other serious user.
Jerk. J/K
Charles Daly
07-24-08, 23:45
Any deviation on the ramps from the USGI pattern for your 20" rifle will lose a sale from me and any other serious user.
If we offer it with the KAC M5 rails as an option, are you a buyer with the rails or without. Figure it would add around $150 for the rails installed with 4 panels. No VFG or extra panesl; just the rail and the 4 panels.
What say you?
And we really lose a sale if we put in the feedramps?
Jay Cunningham
07-25-08, 00:49
Any deviation on the ramps from the USGI pattern for your 20" rifle will lose a sale from me and any other serious user.
Does that mean you would actually buy something other than a Colt? ;)
And we really lose a sale if we put in the feedramps?
My opinion - if you are going to build a clone, build a clone. Don't "improve" it.
Does that mean you would actually buy something other than a Colt? ;)
I already own stuff other than Colt.
If we offer it with the KAC M5 rails as an option, are you a buyer with the rails or without. Figure it would add around $150 for the rails installed with 4 panels. No VFG or extra panesl; just the rail and the 4 panels.
What say you?
If it has the RAS, yes.
If it had regular handguards, yes.
If it had another rail, yes, and I would switch it myself for a RAS or regular handguards.
And we really lose a sale if we put in the feedramps?
I just don't like manufactures going out of their way to deviate from the GI pattern. Why go to all the trouble to have the proper barrel steel, F FSB, etc and not do this correctly?
Also, the barrel profile should not deviate from USGI.
There have been 3 or 4 recent manufactures before you all fail at getting all of this correct.
Sabre is the only other maker that makes a true USGI M4 barrel with respect to all features.
karmapolice
07-25-08, 09:21
Please make an nice proper spec a4 upper, I am in the process of building up a spr/dmr rifle and would love to be able to get a factory built upper with all the correct specs for a good price.
Once you nail the current USGI down, I would definitely be interested in a 20 with the standard (lightweight) profile.
Predator Pursuit Rifle it is the 20" with bead blasted barrel and a2 stock on vltor vis rifle length upper bipod and a SuperSniper 10X42M plus the take off eotech 512
with 69gr Sierra MatchKing 24.5 gr Varget powder.
nice sub moa all day
and it is sexy
Colt RO905 Upper w/6920 lower
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/AKSU_album/IMG_0963.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/AKSU_album/IMG_0895-1.jpg
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