View Full Version : .223 reload troubles
Been reloading for over a year now, just doing .223 on a Dillion 650XL. Reloaded all manner of bullets soft points, hard ball, ballistic tipped and hollow point.
The only rifle I reloaded for was my Knights SR15 and it pretty much ate all of them with zero problems, probably close to 2k. Only real problems I had was the occasional mis seated primer.
In the last month I purchased a couple more AR's, 1 is a complete BCM upper with stainless 16" barrel with a complete Black Rain billet lower the other is a custom 10.5" pistol with a stainless .223 wylde barrel. Both of these are having real trouble with my reloads and doing just about the same thing. Half the time the round will not go fully into battery, it is just a tad off and when it does this it is a real bear to get the bolt back. Once the bullet is ejected there is no obvious damage and it does not appear to be mis-shaped at all. No problems running this stuff in the SR15 but neither of the 2 new ones can get more than a handful out of a mag without locking up.
My bother also has an older BCM upper that runs them fine as well.
Both of these rifles fire white box and wolf gold with no issues.
So what gives with my reloads? I am thinking it has to do with the shoulder spacing and that I need to set my die just a bit lower or is there another direction I should look.
Thanks.
Been reloading for over a year now, just doing .223 on a Dillion 650XL. Reloaded all manner of bullets soft points, hard ball, ballistic tipped and hollow point.
The only rifle I reloaded for was my Knights SR15 and it pretty much ate all of them with zero problems, probably close to 2k. Only real problems I had was the occasional mis seated primer.
In the last month I purchased a couple more AR's, 1 is a complete BCM upper with stainless 16" barrel with a complete Black Rain billet lower the other is a custom 10.5" pistol with a stainless .223 wylde barrel. Both of these are having real trouble with my reloads and doing just about the same thing. Half the time the round will not go fully into battery, it is just a tad off and when it does this it is a real bear to get the bolt back. Once the bullet is ejected there is no obvious damage and it does not appear to be mis-shaped at all. No problems running this stuff in the SR15 but neither of the 2 new ones can get more than a handful out of a mag without locking up.
My bother also has an older BCM upper that runs them fine as well.
Both of these rifles fire white box and wolf gold with no issues.
So what gives with my reloads? I am thinking it has to do with the shoulder spacing and that I need to set my die just a bit lower or is there another direction I should look.
Thanks.
Your depriming / sizing die needs to be adjusted down a tad. Get yourself a case gauge so you can check them and know if you are out of spec.
Your depriming / sizing die needs to be adjusted down a tad. Get yourself a case gauge so you can check them and know if you are out of spec.
Yep, I've had the same trouble and a case gauge told me exactly that was what was wrong.
I am thinking it has to do with the shoulder spacing and that I need to set my die just a bit lower..
That's exactly what it is. The headspace on the SR15 and your brothers rifles is probably on the longer end of the spec window. The 2 newer ones are on the shorter end. Factory ammo is sized pretty short so it will reliably run in all in-spec chambers.
If you want to use this same ammo in all of these rifles, bump the shoulder .001-.002 and check a different round in all rifles. If they all chamber fine, bump another .002-.003 and you'll be set. If not, repeat.
Do not perform this check with loaded ammo. Only seat the bullet and crimp (if you crimp normally). And either get a drop-in case gauge or the Hornady headspace kit. The drop-in is quicker, but if you load a lot of match ammo, the headspace kit is more valuable IMO. I haven't touched my drop in gauge in a long time, I like my ammo to be tight in the chamber (~.003 headspace).
Good luck! You are on the right track.
Yep, I've had the same trouble and a case gauge told me exactly that was what was wrong.
I learned by experience as well... :secret:
I'm always puzzled by the occasional naysayers of the case gauge. It's a must have tool in my opinion.
Been reloading for over a year now, just doing .223 on a Dillion 650XL. Reloaded all manner of bullets soft points, hard ball, ballistic tipped and hollow point.
The only rifle I reloaded for was my Knights SR15 and it pretty much ate all of them with zero problems, probably close to 2k. Only real problems I had was the occasional mis seated primer.
In the last month I purchased a couple more AR's, 1 is a complete BCM upper with stainless 16" barrel with a complete Black Rain billet lower the other is a custom 10.5" pistol with a stainless .223 wylde barrel. Both of these are having real trouble with my reloads and doing just about the same thing. Half the time the round will not go fully into battery, it is just a tad off and when it does this it is a real bear to get the bolt back. Once the bullet is ejected there is no obvious damage and it does not appear to be mis-shaped at all. No problems running this stuff in the SR15 but neither of the 2 new ones can get more than a handful out of a mag without locking up.
My bother also has an older BCM upper that runs them fine as well.
Both of these rifles fire white box and wolf gold with no issues.
So what gives with my reloads? I am thinking it has to do with the shoulder spacing and that I need to set my die just a bit lower or is there another direction I should look.
Thanks.
Just out of curiosity what length are you trimming your brass to?
Just out of curiosity what length are you trimming your brass to?
I think I know what you're getting at.. and in my experience, this issue is almost 99% of the time a sizing die adjustment.
I know of a nameless ammo company who put reman .223 ammo in blue boxes. The brass was (last time I checked) monumentally over trim spec, and you never read a single thread about chambering issues with their ammo.
Just out of curiosity what length are you trimming your brass to?
Agree with Markm.
I trim as close to spec as I can adjust my trimmer.
Just out of curiosity what length are you trimming your brass to?
Most 5.56 I've measure has typically been over the 223 SAAMI spec by ~.005. This shouldn't be an issue within reasonable limits.
There are definitely some chambers that will not work with overly long ammo and I hear you on the re-manufactured lots in blue boxes. Many times I have seen folks grab the 5.56 once fired brass and proceed to reload with no trimming etc. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Always good to check the case length, gauge it and check to ensure that it is going to work with your intended boom stick before reloading en mass.
Thanks for all the responses.
I have not had to trim much brass, most of what we have easily fit in the case gauge .
I did purchase the RCBS headspace kit today so I hope to be able to use it to properly set the die depth. Once I take the average of a few factory spent brass how much depth do I need to add to the die as a good starting point?
I do not think when we set it up we really paid much attention to the depth of the die and how it was set in regards to pushing the shoulder of the case down. We just got lucky that it has fired very well through both of our current rifles. Must be the stainless barrels I used on my recent builds are just not as forgiving.
I'm always puzzled by the occasional naysayers of the case gauge. It's a must have tool in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more. It would have saved me pulling 1200 incorrectly sized 223 cartridges. [emoji23]
Measure your fired brass too as this will yell you a lot about your chamber.
Got my mic today and measured some rounds and now I am surprised they fired through my Knights.
wolf gold came in at -.002
tula steel -.005
xtac -.001
My reloads came in at between +.002 to +.005.
Now to measure some spent brass from each and hopefully come up with a size that will work well in all of them.
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/223%20Remington.pdf
Minimum headspace is 1.4636". If you size slightly below this, say around 1.461-1.462, like most commercial and military ammo (probably the wolf and xtac referenced above), then you're golden and your ammo's headspace is good for any properly headspaced rifle. Don't go too much smaller as that would leave a lot of room for expansion and possible brass failure in maximum headspace chambers.
That Tula referenced above seems really small. But as it's steel, that's probably not a problem.
After you measure your fired brass from your guns, as long as you size .001-.002 smaller than your smallest chamber for bolt guns or maybe .003-.004 for semi-autos , you should be fine and you may find potential accuracy benefits and longer brass life with less trimming. But this will only work for your guns and will not be safe in all guns if you have sized above 1.4636.
I hope this makes sense.
Today got started by mic'ing spent brass from each rifle used fresh factory xm855 green tips that unfired came in at -.001
Knights +.0035
BCM stainless +.002
Northtech stainless +.0005
brothers bcm +.0045
Quite a range and shows why my Knights and his BCM fired most of our reloads with no problem.
Measured samples from reload batches and they all were coming in around +.004 to +.007. Luckily we have 2 rifles that will fire it.
Messed with the die(had to lower it over 2 full revolutions to get to even touch the shoulder) and got it constantly knocking them down to a range of between -.0025 and -.001. Loaded up fifty of them then loaded up 2 magazines, had zero problems running them through either the BCM or Northtech pistol.
Thanks for the help now I have a much better understanding of the reloading process.
How many times has the brass been fired? Brass actually work hardens, so if you have brass that has been shot and sized 5 times, you might have a variance like you're seeing in your reloads.
It's simple to find your rifles headspace. Just bump the shoulder back in .001 increments until it fits in all rifles. Take note of that measurement. This is the rifles headspace. Then bump the brass back another .003 and Bob's your uncle.
Just measured unfired Fed lake city 5.56 55gr. and unfired 62gr military. They measured 1.455 ad 1.457 respectively. What's up with that?
That's about what unfired brass came out to when I measured PMC Bronze and Black Hills Blue Box. I'm under the impression that it's so you won't have issues if your rifle's chamber is an the rather short side.
That's about what unfired brass came out to when I measured PMC Bronze and Black Hills Blue Box. I'm under the impression that it's so you won't have issues if your rifle's chamber is an the rather short side.
Therein lies the problem. SAMMI specs say that 1.4636 is the minimum. After firing and measuring my brass it comes in at 1.459 and i bump it back about .003. That's way short of the minimum. What gives?
Just measured unfired Fed lake city 5.56 55gr. and unfired 62gr military. They measured 1.455 ad 1.457 respectively. What's up with that?
I had a problem recently where I bought some once-fired, fully prepped LC and it had been sized to around 1.453-1.455. Brass fired in the chamber of my shrike is about 1.469. Virgin brass sized so small and fired in this generous chamber would probably not cause a problem. But as it was once fired, and over-sized again, and trimmed, I started getting cases coming apart in the chamber. Not case head separation, the brass was fracturing about halfway between the head and the shoulder. The brass was expanding something like 0.015 or more on its second firing.
I measured Black Hills blue box 75gr at about 1.461 and FGMM 69gr at 1.462 - only .001-.002 below minimum SAAMI spec.
One other thing to note is that more than likely all of our headspace gauges give different measurements based on the shoulder or chamfer of the gauge itself. Some gauges have more and less chamfer and more chamfer will equate to shorter measurements. In the end, our headspace measurements are probably not absolute and are instead most likely relative measurements. If you have some good factory ammo that you're happy with and that you have no problems with in your rifles, then measure it before you fire it with your gauge and re-size to this measurement with your gauge again. That will be safe for sure.
I had a problem recently where I bought some once-fired, fully prepped LC and it had been sized to around 1.453-1.455. Brass fired in the chamber of my shrike is about 1.469. Virgin brass sized so small and fired in this generous chamber would probably not cause a problem. But as it was once fired, and over-sized again, and trimmed, I started getting cases coming apart in the chamber. Not case head separation, the brass was fracturing about halfway between the head and the shoulder. The brass was expanding something like 0.015 or more on its second firing.
I measured Black Hills blue box 75gr at about 1.461 and FGMM 69gr at 1.462 - only .001-.002 below minimum SAAMI spec.
One other thing to note is that more than likely all of our headspace gauges give different measurements based on the shoulder or chamfer of the gauge itself. Some gauges have more and less chamfer and more chamfer will equate to shorter measurements. In the end, our headspace measurements are probably not absolute and are instead most likely relative measurements. If you have some good factory ammo that you're happy with and that you have no problems with in your rifles, then measure it before you fire it with your gauge and re-size to this measurement with your gauge again. That will be safe for sure.
Thanks. That's what I do. I figured that my headspace gauge might be a little off and am thinking that it's more of a relative measurement than an absolute one. One thing that bothers me is that I may still be below minimum (in the back of mind) and I'm looking to get at least 8 to 10 loads out of my LC brass. I sure as hell don't want to experience head separation..
Just measured unfired Fed lake city 5.56 55gr. and unfired 62gr military. They measured 1.455 ad 1.457 respectively. What's up with that?
That would fall within the SAAMI spec: 1.4666-.0070 (1.4596 min). All manufacturers provide ammo sized around 1.455 so it will cycle reliably in all in-spec rifles. They don't want complaints that their ammo will not cycle. Most of the 223 Rem and 5.56 I've run across measures ~1.456.
Black Hills 5.56 77gr Tipped Matchking: 1.457
Black Hills 5.56 77gr OTM (Mk262): 1.457
SSA 5.56 77gr SSA OTM (Mk262 clone) 1.446
PMC Bronze 223 Rem 55gr FMJ: 1.458
Federal American Eagle XM855: 1.456
Why the SSA 77gr OTM is so short, I don't know. I haven't tried it so I can't say if it cycles in my rifles without damage to the brass. .010 is a lot of expansion for a brass case...
Therein lies the problem. SAMMI specs say that 1.4636 is the minimum. After firing and measuring my brass it comes in at 1.459 and i bump it back about .003. That's way short of the minimum. What gives?
1.4636 is the minimum for the chamber, not the case. Measuring fired brass from a semi-auto is not a very telling measurement for a chamber as there is still some residual pressure inside the case that will possibly cause additional expansion once extraction begins. This is why they all measure differently. Measuring a fired case from a bolt gun is however, an excellent way to measure the chamber, but not for a semi-auto.
FWIW, I size all of my brass to 1.458 since I know what will and will not work in my rifles.
Therein lies the problem. SAMMI specs say that 1.4636 is the minimum. After firing and measuring my brass it comes in at 1.459 and i bump it back about .003. That's way short of the minimum. What gives?
The ammo manufacturer is sometimes going to size their ammo on the rather short side. If the brass stretches out when firing, it shouldn't be an issue unless the same brass keeps getting sized too short again and again... I'd be curious to know exactly how long your particular chamber is.
A few numbers for reference. I just measured 5 random pieces of brass from a box of PMC Bronze 55gr FMJ, Black Hills Blue Box 55gr FMJ, and then 5 random pieces of brass brass that I fired through my AR and Rem 700 yesterday. All fired brass was the same load.
PMC Bronze: Black Hills B: Fired in AR: Fired in Rem 700:
1.4550 1.4530 1.4630 1.4590
1.4565 1.4520 1.4625 1.4585
1.4550 1.4515 1.4635 1.4575
1.4560 1.4525 1.4630 1.4585
1.5560 1.4530 1.4630 1.4590
If you're getting really precise, you can use the smallest chamber you're loading for as a guage. For example, Brass at 1.4625 is makes for a happily snug closing of the bolt handle on my Rem 700, but brass sized at 1.4615 is resistance free. Looking at the numbers above, 1.4595 might be ideal for me when resizing if I'm going by the .003 rule, as anything that feeds in my bolt gun works in my AR. But each gun's chamber is different...I find that if it fits in the proper "steps" of a minimum chamber dillon case gage, I'm good to go, so that's my favorite tool for this. If I were trying to get the absolute longest life out of my brass for a individual rifle, I'd probably be looking at the numbers rather than just using a case gage. I do know that there are some pretty high round count shooters that are pretty happy just using a case gage, and they shoot far more than I do.
Edit:Onyx Z posted while I was typing. I'd take his advice over mine if our posts are conflicting.
Appreciate the info guys. Didn't mean to hijack this thread but you guys have given me some good insight and have eased my mind. Been worried about case size for a while and was concerned about case head separation even though I was bumping the shoulder back the barest minimum (for me).
Appreciate the info guys. Didn't mean to hijack this thread but you guys have given me some good insight and have eased my mind. Been worried about case size for a while and was concerned about case head separation even though I was bumping the shoulder back the barest minimum (for me).
All good info to learn from. Maybe will help prevent someone from doing what we did in loading 3-4k in loads that will only fire in 2 of our rifles, I am just glad mine will reliably work in my SR15 which is my go to rifle right now.
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