View Full Version : LMT and Black Hills problems
Well, I was out shooting my new LMT 16 inch M4gery today, and I had a couple of hicups. One is that a couple of rounds did not seem to want to feed correctly on initial chambering, and the other is that I had a couple of light strikes on the primers that did not set them off.
I was using Black Hills remanufactered 55grn FMJ today (yesterday I ran 40 rds of UMC 55grn FMJ w/o any problems). Anybody else have a similar problem? Or is my rifle just breaking in? I only put 50 rds of Black Hills through it today, and only with those two problems. I was using new 20 rd PMAGS.
When I got home from the range, I did clean the rifle, and especially the firing pin to ensure that there wasn't any preservative or gunk left over from shipping that I missed the first time I cleaned.
Other than that, I have had no problems...I still need to get it zerod properly, but today was just a fun shooting day...
rifleshooter
06-25-08, 15:44
The person to call at Black Hills is Carl Bullock Customer Service Rep. Phone 605-348-5150
I am betting he will arange to have you ship whats left of the BH Ammo. back to them for inspection.
Black Hills will take care of any problems that they cause.;)
Black Hills remanufactured ammo has case lengths that are way out of spec on the LONG side!
This may be contributing to your problem. :confused:
You typically don't hear of this causing problems though. I bought one box of this stuff years ago, and after seeing how far out of spec the cases were... I won't use it anymore.
A few weeks ago I checked a buddy's recent production blue box, and it's still the same. I don't know the exact measurement, but it's well outside the max length on a case guage, and it varies.
One thing you could try is.... In a safe environment... Chamber a live round or two, and see if they feel like they're sticking inside the chamber.
Razorhunter
06-25-08, 16:00
WHOA. Problems with BH's BLUE box? Hell, I've never even heard of problems with RED box remanuf, and ESPECIALLY not heard of any issues with NEW BLUE box!
Very interested in this. Are you saying the Blue box is way out of spec to this day? What is "spec"??? I mean, what is the LONGEST ANY .223/5.56 round should mic at???
You guys work fast...
You typically don't hear of this causing problems though. I bought one box of this stuff years ago, and after seeing how far out of spec the cases were... I won't use it anymore.
A few weeks ago I checked a buddy's recent production blue box, and it's still the same. I don't know the exact measurement, but it's well outside the max length on a case guage, and it varies.
Hmm, that may be the reason. I did bag all of the brass I could recover, so I will save it and measure it with calipers when I get a chance. I'm surprised that it is out of spec as you say...everybody raves about it, it seems like...
I might just shoot black hills an email once I get some measurements done, and look at some stuff. What length should your typical fired case be?
Until I get this resolved, I will stick to Remington UMC and other brands.
WHOA. Problems with BH's BLUE box? Hell, I've never even heard of problems with RED box remanuf, and ESPECIALLY not heard of any issues with NEW BLUE box!
Very interested in this. Are you saying the Blue box is way out of spec to this day? What is "spec"??? I mean, what is the LONGEST ANY .223/5.56 round should mic at???
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I thought Black Hills reman was packed in the blue box, and thier new production in the red box...also, they only list .223 55grn FMJ in the reman section...
You
I thought Black Hills reman was packed in the blue box, and thier new production in the red box
That is correct.
I saw BH Blue Box .223 choke a brand-new LWRC upper at a carbine class that, up to that point, had been running like a top. The cases were sort of dribbling out of the ejection port and the rifle started to short stroke like crazy.
I'm not a fan.
Well, I was out shooting my new LMT 16 inch M4gery today, and I had a couple of hicups. One is that a couple of rounds did not seem to want to feed correctly on initial chambering, and the other is that I had a couple of light strikes on the primers that did not set them off.
Doesn't impress me as an ammo problem first. LMT isn't one of the usual suspects, either. Any "improvements" or mods to the gun? More info/diagnosis required here.
Black Hills remanufactured ammo has case lengths that are way out of spec on the LONG side! This may be contributing to your problem. :confused: You typically don't hear of this causing problems though. I bought one box of this stuff years ago, and after seeing how far out of spec the cases were... I won't use it anymore. A few weeks ago I checked a buddy's recent production blue box, and it's still the same. I don't know the exact measurement, but it's well outside the max length on a case guage, and it varies.
Umpteen thousand rounds of reman downrange with nary a problem, with hundreds of thousands in a couple of training venues. Case length does seem to be a non-issue for most.
rifleshooter
06-25-08, 17:27
I saw BH Blue Box .223 choke a brand-new LWRC upper at a carbine class that, up to that point, had been running like a top. The cases were sort of dribbling out of the ejection port and the rifle started to short stroke like crazy.
I'm not a fan.
A while back I bought a box of BH Blue Box .223 from my local shop. When inspecting the Ammo. before loading some Mags. I noticed some cases were Fiocchi the rest were something else. I called BH and they sent me a shipping lable to return the box of mixed cased Ammo.
They said the inspector missed the Fiocchi cases being mixed but it was all good reloaded Ammo. this in a phone call from their CS Rep. They sent me back two boxs of Ammo. for my trouble.
I just wanted to know if what I had was really good to shoot.
They did take care of my question and I have not had any problems shooting some of their Blue Box Ammo.:)
Doesn't impress me as an ammo problem first. LMT isn't one of the usual suspects, either. Any "improvements" or mods to the gun? More info/diagnosis required here.
No, this gun has not been modified. It is factory LMT all the way, nothing has been touched except for fieldstripping for cleaning.
I just thought it unusual that the blue box BH hung up in the magazine when the bolt tried to pick it up and chamber it. I had to retract the bolt and drop it a second time to get the round to feed. Seemed a bit...unusual...
Plus, the couple of light primer strikes made me wonder if there was an issue with the ammo or the gun...but, like I said, the rifle functioned flawlessly with UMC 55 grn FMJ...
And, no, I'm not going to send it in...I appreciate that ya'll have had great experience's with BH customer service, though. I'm going to keep the rest as a sample, and likely will not purchase any BH blue box .223 in the future unless they improve. I'm going to wait until I get a micrometer to do some measurements about the length and such...
I'd still like to hear if anyone else has had similar problems...
Failure2Stop
06-25-08, 17:47
I have had "issues" with BH Blue Box (Remanufactured. Red is new, white is Mk262). My issues are ONLY failure of the bolt to lock to the rear on an empty magazine (PMAG, rested, benched, and free), from a BCM upper.
As I understand, the blue box is loaded to SAAMI pressure, not NATO, to which I attritibuted the issues. Either way, blue-box is not my go-to ammo, just a training supplement, as I got it for a great price.
If you are concerned about the performance of your weapon, get some NATO pressure ammo (M855, M193, Mk262, or 5.56 TAP) and try it. LMT is known to assume that you will be feeding higher pressure ammo, and drills it's gas ports accordingly.
If you are concerned about the performance of your weapon, get some NATO pressure ammo (M855, M193, Mk262, or 5.56 TAP) and try it. LMT is known to assume that you will be feeding higher pressure ammo, and drills it's gas ports accordingly.
I didn't have a problem with firing, extraction, or the bolt locking back on the last round...it was just feeding on the initial charging, and the light primer strikes...
I have shot over 3000 rounds of Black Hills blue box 75 grain in my 9 AR's and never had any FTF or FTE problems what so ever . runs smooth ,very accurate,and hits hard . my Colt 6724 loves them and I get .75 moa at 100 yards all day .
I've run ~2500 rounds of BH blue box 55gr ammo through my Colt 6920 and Noveske N4 build without issue. Never checked my ammo for length, but I had the following three samples on hand and thought I'd snap a pic:
http://tinyurl.com/5vt5ac
It does look like the case on the BH is longer than the other two, but my rifles don't seem to mind. I'd consider trying at least one more box of BH 55gr (maybe purchased from a different source) to see if maybe the box you had was bad.
AwaySooner
06-25-08, 19:22
Since it's a brand new rifle, do you have any lube dripping out of mag well? If not make sure you lube the heck out of it first and try again.
rifleshooter
06-25-08, 19:27
I've run ~2500 rounds of BH blue box 55gr ammo through my Colt 6920 and Noveske N4 build without issue. Never checked my ammo for length, but I had the following three samples on hand and thought I'd snap a pic:
http://tinyurl.com/5vt5ac
It does look like the case on the BH is longer than the other two, but my rifles don't seem to mind. I'd consider trying at least one more box of BH 55gr (maybe purchased from a different source) to see if maybe the box you had was bad.
It would be pretty simple for people who think their Ammo. is too long in their ARs chambers to check the headspace with a field grade gage. If they can lock in the carrier then there is a headspace problem with that round of Ammo.
I have had "issues" with BH Blue Box (Remanufactured. Red is new, white is Mk262).
Factory seconds, both new and reman seconds, come in white boxes. Not unique to Mk262, or even .223.
As I understand, the blue box is loaded to SAAMI pressure, not NATO,
That's correct.
Lindertw's pic is quite interesting...
As I understand, the blue box is loaded to SAAMI pressure, not NATO,
NATO pressure for 5.56 is higher than your standard commercial .223 pressure ammo, but the pressure of the ammo is not causing problems...I'm going to be putting BH ammo in the practice ammo category from now own, though...
Don't see much BH ammo around here, though...and, I am not ordering from the internet...no credit card, and I prefer to buy by the box...
Once I get next week's paycheck, I will be hitting the gunshops to pick up more mags and as many types of 55grn and heavier ammo I can find for testing...
Since it's a brand new rifle, do you have any lube dripping out of mag well? If not make sure you lube the heck out of it first and try again.
Yes, I run her wet. I'm not having a serious problem, no jamming or anything, but just some disturbing stuff with what I thought was considered to be top-quality ammo...I'm just trying to trace down some causes and see if anyone else has had some issues with BH ammo like I had...
FWIW, my LMT 16" loved the 55 grain blue box, which was also purchased long ago. 100 rounds without a hiccup... Also, BH 77 grain Mk 262 fed and grouped wonderfully.
Yes, I run her wet. I'm not having a serious problem, no jamming or anything, but just some disturbing stuff with what I thought was considered to be top-quality ammo...I'm just trying to trace down some causes and see if anyone else has had some issues with BH ammo like I had...
A couple more things...
If I read your post correctly, you had two failures to feed in 50 rounds, and two failures to fire? Were the rounds that failed to feed and fire the same? Either as an individual cartridge, or as the first round from the magazine?
We're also dealing with a pretty limited sample size, and during the days for each load. 40 rounds of UMC and 50 rounds of BHA is very little ammuntion, and I'd be hesitant to make a value judgement about either especially for the better with the former, and for the worse with the latter, given the track record of each.
What's the lot number?
chillindrdude
06-26-08, 06:15
do you guys know if LMTs are manufactured to 5.56mm NATO dimensions or .223 remington dimensions?
rifleshooter
06-26-08, 07:37
do you guys know if LMTs are manufactured to 5.56mm NATO dimensions or .223 remington dimensions?
Most all production LM&T AR15&16 Rifles are built as Military type weapons and their chambers are 5.56 NATO. ;)
If you read their data items you will note most all their production uppers are discribed as sold with with full auto chrome lined bbls. This item alone tells one they are not .223 chambered but are 5.56 NATO.;)
Umpteen thousand rounds of reman downrange with nary a problem, with hundreds of thousands in a couple of training venues. Case length does seem to be a non-issue for most.
I agree. In general the ammo has a great reputation. I personally think that BH has some really aggresive expander balls. Because I don't get this kind of case stretch when I reload once fired military brass of the same year(s) and kind.
A couple more things...
If I read your post correctly, you had two failures to feed in 50 rounds, and two failures to fire? Were the rounds that failed to feed and fire the same? Either as an individual cartridge, or as the first round from the magazine?
We're also dealing with a pretty limited sample size, and during the days for each load. 40 rounds of UMC and 50 rounds of BHA is very little ammuntion, and I'd be hesitant to make a value judgement about either especially for the better with the former, and for the worse with the latter, given the track record of each.
What's the lot number?
Yes, I had two Failures to feed, and two failures to fire. One of the failure to fire was the same round as the failure to feed. I later reinserted it into the mag and chambered it successfully, and fired it without a problem...it seemed to have a problem being picked up from the mag by the bolt...the bolt would push it forward about a 1/4 of an inch and then stopped, so I dropped the mag and removed the round, inspected, then reinserted it into the mag and put the mag back into the rifle, from which it chambered successfully. I then pulled the trigger, heard the "click", and waited about 10 seconds. I then ejected the round onto the bench while keeping the muzzle pointed downrange. I thought that was quite unusual, and inspected the round once more. It had a dimpled primer, so I thought it was a light primer strike.
On the next mag, I was not able to chamber it again...I dropped the mag, cleared the rifle, and reinserted the magazine. Again, a light primer strike, but successful feeding from the magazine.
The mags were brand new 20 rd PMAGS.
I do not know the lot number, as I have already tossed the boxes, but I will look next time I go to the gunstore. The brass is Lake City 06 brass.
I know it is a very small sample size, and I was just happy that my AR worked w/o jamming, am I am not writing off black hills ammo, either...just noting that I had some minor problems with it, and wanted to know if anyone else had similar problems...
Thanks.
Again, for further clarity: When you're charing the gun, is the action closed or open? If open, are you dropping the bcg with the bolt catch, or using the charging handle? If the CH, a quick pull to the rear and release, or helping it forward?
Theory: Hesitation somewhere is stalling feed, and creating a slight OOB condition sufficient to give you a light strike.
Thanks.
Again, for further clarity: When you're charing the gun, is the action closed or open? If open, are you dropping the bcg with the bolt catch, or using the charging handle? If the CH, a quick pull to the rear and release, or helping it forward?
For the very first round, I definitley charged it with the charging handle, and trying to let it drop instead of following it (which I know can cause problems). I think that I dropped the bolt with the charging handle for the second incident, too.
Theory: Hesitation somewhere is stalling feed, and creating a slight OOB condition sufficient to give you a light strike.
I think your theory is right. I'm not used to that failure mode, as my other guns, it's either cocked, or not, and once it's cocked, it's going to give full force to the firing pin. I didn't know that issue could happen with ARs. Might not be the ammo at all...
Will do more testing at next range session. Thanks for the help, ya'll...
rifleshooter
06-26-08, 16:51
For the very first round, I definitley charged it with the charging handle, and trying to let it drop instead of following it (which I know can cause problems). I think that I dropped the bolt with the charging handle for the second incident, too.
I think your theory is right. I'm not used to that failure mode, as my other guns, it's either cocked, or not, and once it's cocked, it's going to give full force to the firing pin. I didn't know that issue could happen with ARs. Might not be the ammo at all...
Will do more testing at next range session. Thanks for the help, ya'll...
I shot a box of BH Blue box .223 55gr Ammo. today in my new LM&T M4 AR with not problems and a nice tight group.
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