View Full Version : Trigger Prep Discussion
To define, trigger prep is taking up the slack on a trigger before breaking the shot. It's often explained as a two stage process. For those accustomed to that, where on your draw stroke do you start to prep the trigger? Or, do you not prep the trigger on the first shot from the draw, but do prep the trigger on follow up shots? One obvious potential drawback to prepping the trigger on the draw is the increased potential for ND, so practicing it a must. Many never learn it nor are taught it. Maybe not such a bad thing....How was it taught to you during training/courses and if an instructor, how do you teach it to others? When/where do you incorporate it? It's considered a more advanced method of trigger control, but where in the learning chain did you incorporate it?
Voodoo_Man
11-28-14, 08:34
The best way I have seen it taught is called the "Red Coat Drill" - learned this in a Sayoc Tactical Group class (http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2012/07/aar-warrior-pistol-10-tom-kier-may-2627.html).
All students line up, everyone preps to whatever percent the instructor calls, then when he says "break" everyone should fire at the same time, in a line - red coat firing line style. You will ND a lot, especially if you are not familiar with your trigger system. Glocks have different triggers - if SA/DA always use it in the single action mode.
Personally, I prep the trigger up until there is no more slack. The more you shoot your pistol the more familiar you will become - this is a must for EDC guns.
When you prep the trigger that there is no more slack, there is still a little bit of wiggle room there. The way you get this little bit of wiggle room out is by shooting accuracy at 25 yards, reference my posts on the "200 drill" (http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/search?q=200+drill) - also something I learned from the Sayoc Tactical Group classes.
This is where dry-fire is extremely important. For every one shot you take at the range you should dry-fire a minimum of three times. You have to work your flinch out - which is not an absolute process because it can come back instantly and leave just as fast. You have to know yourself, your gun, your ammo and how you function under stress.
The best way I have seen it taught is called the "Red Coat Drill" - learned this in a Sayoc Tactical Group class (http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2012/07/aar-warrior-pistol-10-tom-kier-may-2627.html).
All students line up, everyone preps to whatever percent the instructor calls, then when he says "break" everyone should fire at the same time, in a line - red coat firing line style. You will ND a lot, especially if you are not familiar with your trigger system. Glocks have different triggers - if SA/DA always use it in the single action mode.
Personally, I prep the trigger up until there is no more slack. The more you shoot your pistol the more familiar you will become - this is a must for EDC guns.
When you prep the trigger that there is no more slack, there is still a little bit of wiggle room there. The way you get this little bit of wiggle room out is by shooting accuracy at 25 yards, reference my posts on the "200 drill" (http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/search?q=200+drill) - also something I learned from the Sayoc Tactical Group classes.
This is where dry-fire is extremely important. For every one shot you take at the range you should dry-fire a minimum of three times. You have to work your flinch out - which is not an absolute process because it can come back instantly and leave just as fast. You have to know yourself, your gun, your ammo and how you function under stress.
Did you prep the trigger during the draw or only on follow up shots? On the bold, that's one of various reasons I prefer to focus on one gun, and practice with it pretty much exclusively. You know those types who have their gun of the day, and will change guns they CCW like they change clothes. Unless they are very well trained on all of them, this always struck me as a bad idea.
I draw with my finger straight, until the front sight post is in view and my grip is being finalized. I then prep the trigger(stock M&P) and take up all the pretravel, then hold it until I decide to shoot.
I will, however, shoot at any time at or after gripping. For example, a clear, large target at 10 yds, there is no prep, just slapping the trigger once the sights hit it.
About a .75sec split shot cadence I begin prepping. Less than that I hold my finger off the trigger and pull all the way through once I get the sight picture I want. I hope that makes sense.
The best way I have seen it taught is called the "Red Coat Drill" - learned this in a Sayoc Tactical Group class (http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2012/07/aar-warrior-pistol-10-tom-kier-may-2627.html).
All students line up, everyone preps to whatever percent the instructor calls, then when he says "break" everyone should fire at the same time, in a line - red coat firing line style. You will ND a lot, especially if you are not familiar with your trigger system. Glocks have different triggers - if SA/DA always use it in the single action mode.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the point of practicing that first shit with a DA/SA pistol on SA mode? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the training, since that first, most important shot, the shot where you have made the conscious decision to shoot, would be DA?
Voodoo_Man
11-28-14, 09:13
Did you prep the trigger during the draw or only on follow up shots? On the bold, that's one of various reasons I prefer to focus on one gun, and practice with it pretty much exclusively. You know those types who have their gun of the day, and will change guns they CCW like they change clothes. Unless they are very well trained on all of them, this always struck me as a bad idea.
Always prep on the draw, it is part of the draw stroke. I hate to keep linking my blog, but this is applicable. Check out my one shot from draw video - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2014/10/one-shot-from-concealment.html - as I get faster I am prepping the trigger earlier, releasing the shot at full extension and then before full extension.
The bold part, I would say that if you are not, or rather do not, consider yourself an expert with pistols then yes being extremely capable with one specific firearm and one specific trigger is definitely better than being mediocre with a few different setups. You will, however, learn that through training and dry-fire you will become extremely familiar with any trigger system of any firearm (especially rifle) and be able to perform above average at that point with any pistol you pick up.
The 200 drill I shoot with three different guns on the regular. All three have drastically different trigger setups, NY1 (duty gun), to 3.5 minus connection and even throw in the zev-tech trigger I have in my G17L to see where I am with that. Some are easier to use than others and that is personal preference. I really like OEM Glock trigger setups with a dot or minus connector (gen 4), second is the G17L or "competition" trigger setup which is extremely light and while that is awesome for some I find myself ND'ing more with it.
Voodoo_Man
11-28-14, 09:14
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the point of practicing that first shit with a DA/SA pistol on SA mode? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the training, since that first, most important shot, the shot where you have made the conscious decision to shoot, would be DA?
Firstly, there are no absolutes. You train for the harder of the two because you can always fall back on SA from DA, its easier, right?
Second, I do not know of a single PD that allows their officers to run their SA/DA pistols, cocked. All are first shot DA.
Always prep on the draw, it is part of the draw stroke. I hate to keep linking my blog, but this is applicable. Check out my one shot from draw video - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2014/10/one-shot-from-concealment.html - as I get faster I am prepping the trigger earlier, releasing the shot at full extension and then before full extension.
The bold part, I would say that if you are not, or rather do not, consider yourself an expert with pistols then yes being extremely capable with one specific firearm and one specific trigger is definitely better than being mediocre with a few different setups. You will, however, learn that through training and dry-fire you will become extremely familiar with any trigger system of any firearm (especially rifle) and be able to perform above average at that point with any pistol you pick up.
The 200 drill I shoot with three different guns on the regular. All three have drastically different trigger setups, NY1 (duty gun), to 3.5 minus connection and even throw in the zev-tech trigger I have in my G17L to see where I am with that. Some are easier to use than others and that is personal preference. I really like OEM Glock trigger setups with a dot or minus connector (gen 4), second is the G17L or "competition" trigger setup which is extremely light and while that is awesome for some I find myself ND'ing more with it.
That's my basic approach/opinion, but I'm not a qualified instructor nor BTDT type. The latter however is much more common in my experience. Why buy a new gun that has a very different trigger, location of fire controls, etc when you're not competent with what you have? That tends to be ignored as new shiny things much more interesting than range time.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the point of practicing that first shit with a DA/SA pistol on SA mode? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the training, since that first, most important shot, the shot where you have made the conscious decision to shoot, would be DA?
Which is why different trigger systems have different recs to be proficient with. I don't shoot DA/SA guns as I don't like them, so can't comment on if/how people apply trigger prep to it.
Firstly, there are no absolutes. You train for the harder of the two because you can always fall back on DA from SA, its easier, right?
Second, I do not know of a single PD that allows their officers to run their SA/DA pistols, cocked. All are first shot SA.
Are you having typing issues, or do you not know the difference between DA and SA??
Voodoo_Man
11-28-14, 09:40
Are you having typing issues, or do you not know the difference between DA and SA??
I was getting them confused, thanks for bringing it to my attention, even though it wasn't in the most polite way.
I'll go back and edit what I posted.
Failure2Stop
11-28-14, 09:44
Finger hits the trigger when I am willing to let a shot go.
Initial take-up when the sights are in view and assuming I am still willing to release a shot.
Shot breaks as sights tell me that I have an acceptable sight picture to guarantee a hit.
Trigger is in continuous motion, with smooth, gradual pressure. Sometimes that gradual pressure will happen more rapidly (large/wide open target) and sometimes it will be more deliberate (distant/low percentage target).
As soon as the shot breaks, the finger releases the trigger and comes back to initial take-up. Performed properly, the trigger will be reset before sights are fully recovered, giving more time for good trigger control.
Are you having typing issues, or do you not know the difference between DA and SA??
LOL. Only thing worse than a DA/SA trigger would be an SA/DA trigger! I'll bet Taurus is working on that as we speak. Two, I can assure you Voodoo knows the difference.
Voodoo_Man
11-28-14, 10:08
LOL. Only thing worse than a DA/SA trigger would be an SA/DA trigger! I'll bet Taurus is working on that as we speak. Two, I can assure you Voodoo knows the difference.
Admittedly, I have not owned a hammered pistol in well over 5 years. I shoot them when I can, not a fan though.
I was getting them confused, thanks for bringing it to my attention, even though it wasn't in the most polite way.
I'll go back and edit what I posted.
I wasn't trying to be rude. I know from much experience that phone and tablet typing can be problematic. Having said that, I think if we all want to be very specific in this thread, some proofreading is worth it to avoid confusion. In short, if I am to take advice from information in this thread, correct terminology is vital.
Admittedly, I have not owned a hammered pistol in well over 5 years. I shoot them when I can, not a fan though.
For myself, I don't mind a DA or an SA trigger, and have transitioned from SA (via 1911s) to DA via new polymer wonder pistols. But, a gun with both? A consistent trigger pull, be it SA or DA is my preference.
The question presumes that prepping the trigger is an advantage. Obviously this varies by platform. My experience, based on my recent experimentation, is that with the Glock, prepping the trigger is a disadvantage for long, precise shots, is no advantage close and fast, and is a disadvantage from a safety perspective.
Voodoo_Man
11-28-14, 10:41
The question presumes that prepping the trigger is an advantage. Obviously this varies by platform. My experience, based on my recent experimentation, is that with the Glock, prepping the trigger is a disadvantage for long, precise shots, is no advantage close and fast, and is a disadvantage from a safety perspective.
I am not following. Prepping is bad for accuracy?
Failure2Stop
11-28-14, 11:13
The question presumes that prepping the trigger is an advantage. Obviously this varies by platform. My experience, based on my recent experimentation, is that with the Glock, prepping the trigger is a disadvantage for long, precise shots, is no advantage close and fast, and is a disadvantage from a safety perspective.
I'm not following.
Not sure if it's a terminology disconnect or something else.
Care to expound on it?
The question presumes that prepping the trigger is an advantage. Obviously this varies by platform. My experience, based on my recent experimentation, is that with the Glock, prepping the trigger is a disadvantage for long, precise shots, is no advantage close and fast, and is a disadvantage from a safety perspective.
As the others said, not tracking. An increased potential for ND yes, but there's a reason it's used: it does increase speed and accuracy. As mentioned, not for all platforms, all shooters, nor all situations.
I'm not following.
Not sure if it's a terminology disconnect or something else.
Care to expound on it?
Sure:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14073-Glock-trigger-manipulation
Sent from my iPhone
Failure2Stop
11-28-14, 12:05
Not to be a dick, but cross-forum referencing is generally not condoned.
To avoid the pitfall, here is what was posted there:
To cut to the chase, I recently have been manipulating the Glock trigger like a good S&W DA revolver trigger. No prepping, and one continuous press. This has yielded good results at 100 yards, inside 7 yards, and everything I have tried in between. This method works especially well for me with just one hand. I also believe it offers a safety advantage, since you are getting on the trigger later, and skipping the "prep" step during the presentation which could lead to unintended loud noises. I believe the main reason it works well with the Glock trigger is, rather than try to turn the Glock trigger into a poor example of a 1911 trigger, you use the creep in the Glock trigger to give you a compressed surprised break, which minimizes anticipation.
I do not use traditional DA trigger staging; as in rolling through the trigger just until the hammer is about to release and holding it there until happy with the shot.
I see the Glock trigger as fundamentally different than a DA trigger, mostly due to the initial take-up of the trigger. When I discuss Glock (and other similar triggers), I want to get through the slop quickly and into a rolling break of the actual trigger pull.
Maybe you are coming at this from a different angle than I am reading (I didn't follow the linked thread due to time), but it seems to me that what you are calling prepping is not what I am, and it is entirely possible that my reading comprehension has failed me on this fine morning and I have been talking outside the framework of the discussion from the get-go.
Not to be a dick, but cross-forum referencing is generally not condoned.
To avoid the pitfall, here is what was posted there:
I do not use traditional DA trigger staging; as in rolling through the trigger just until the hammer is about to release and holding it there until happy with the shot.
I see the Glock trigger as fundamentally different than a DA trigger, mostly due to the initial take-up of the trigger. When I discuss Glock (and other similar triggers), I want to get through the slop quickly and into a rolling break of the actual trigger pull.
Maybe you are coming at this from a different angle than I am reading (I didn't follow the linked thread due to time), but it seems to me that what you are calling prepping is not what I am, and it is entirely possible that my reading comprehension has failed me on this fine morning and I have been talking outside the framework of the discussion from the get-go.
No doubt, defining it so we are talking about the same thing always a good idea. Personally, I was interested mostly in its use on the draw stroke and presentation of the first shot.
Voodoo_Man
11-28-14, 13:03
No doubt, defining it so we are talking about the same thing always a good idea. Personally, I was interested mostly in its use on the draw stroke and presentation of the first shot.
That is the way I interpreted your question in the OP.
I'd also like to mention that while F2S did not state it specifically, there are instances where you do not need to see or even use your sights and you can still prep the trigger. (unless I'm completely off base, F2S?)
That is the way I interpreted your question in the OP.
I'd also like to mention that while F2S did not state it specifically, there are instances where you do not need to see or even use your sights and you can still prep the trigger. (unless I'm completely off base, F2S?)
No doubt. I didn't correlate site picture (or lack there of) with trigger prep per se. Point shooting discussion?
To define, trigger prep is taking up the slack on a trigger before breaking the shot. It's often explained as a two stage process.
This was the first post of the thread. Sounds to me the same as I define trigger prep.
Maybe you are coming at this from a different angle than I am reading (I didn't follow the linked thread due to time), but it seems to me that what you are calling prepping is not what I am, and it is entirely possible that my reading comprehension has failed me on this fine morning and I have been talking outside the framework of the discussion from the get-go.
What I define as trigger prep on a Glock trigger is "taking the the slack on the trigger to reach the wall, regardless how you finish the trigger."
After many years of prep-ing the trigger as described by the OP in post #1, I have come to believe that is not the optimal way to work a Glock trigger. I believe the optimal way it to press the entire length of travel without trying to prep to the wall. The reason I linked that thread was not to incite forum rivalry but to include a bunch of information, like the targets I shot at 100 yards using the no prep method, like the post by the guy that instrumented a Glock trigger and found the smoother press came from the same method I am now using (without a prep as defined by the OP), and other relevant posts.
This stuff falls into art not science. I wish someone had shared with me what I figured out, almost by accident over the last months, years ago. Try it and see whether it works for you, and if not, you ail only be out a few cartridges and a few minutes.
The question presumes that prepping the trigger is an advantage. Obviously this varies by platform. My experience, based on my recent experimentation, is that with the Glock, prepping the trigger is a disadvantage for long, precise shots, is no advantage close and fast, and is a disadvantage from a safety perspective.
this is the weirdest thing i've ever heard. when shooting distance i extra prep. this is to say i will prep slower than i do in rapid fire and apply the slow consistent pressure as if i'm shooting as a novice again.
i feel like something that is rarely discussed is the topic of making a shot happen. i think travis haley brought it up in one of his videos that when you are shooting fast you are making the shot happen. this runs contrary to the lazy teaching of "surprise shot." however, no one bothers to explain this thoroughly.
when experienced shooters shoot fast and they maintain an acceptable level of accuracy for the distance and speed of the current engagement it is because they're applying the exact amount of force required over the exact amount of distance required to break the shot. this is done more easily in the presence of recoil through cadence. it takes countless repetitions to learn the muscle memory for the exact distance to apply force (and this varies with each trigger type or brand and gun architecture). the same is true for applying the exact right amount of force to break the shot, no more no less.
the example i use is dribbling in basketball. if you maintain the same force applied on the ball per dribble, but you vary the distance that your hand comes up each time, you will lose the ball.
if you maintain the same distance that your hand travels in the dribble motion, but vary the force applied in each dribble, you will lose the ball.
it takes the exact coordination of force and distance traveled in order to produce a repeatable and predictable ball return. it takes repetitions to acclimate your body to this memory of motion.
when shooting, one necessity in producing this motion perfectly coordinated motion under speed is prepping the trigger at the appropriate time. if you shoot a 1 shot per second cadence, you have all the time in the world to create a two stage prep process, but as you get faster this prep time has to become less like a two stage process and more like one press with just the right distance and force applied, repeatedly, in order to create faster shot cadence.
it is not the case that you should have the shot be a surprise. this is lazy teaching. the teacher is not articulating that the novice has not yet learned the exact pressure to apply that will break the shot without causing an over squeezing or a jerking (which is why you teach novices a slow steady press with consistent pressure). similarly the novice has not learned the correct distance over which to apply pressure and will over squeeze or jerk. nor has the novice learned how to isolate the trigger finger as to minimize sympathetic motions of the other fingers in both hands, which also creates anticipatory errors.
it is also the case that reaction is not bad. flinches are bad. a flinch is a mistiming of reaction. when you see a top level shooter's gun break in the middle of a stage, they have a reaction. it looks like they dip the gun badly. however what they didn't do was dip the gun BEFORE the trigger press was accomplished. they react AFTER the trigger press has been accomplished. reaction is not bad, the mistiming of reaction is bad. novices cannot distinguish or articulate the time difference between trigger press accomplishment and recoil occurring. they often overcompensate and react before trigger press is accomplished creating the anticipation error.
Straight Shooter
11-28-14, 16:36
For me, it depends on what pistol Im shooting. On my Glocks, I take up slack 3/4 into the "punch out" part of my draw. Then when my arms are fully extended, a quick smooth press to rear, firing the shot. On my M9...Id start prepping,halfway back as I pulled the pistol from the holster. then after my sights were on target, finish the DA pull, mindfull of the next shot being SA.
We all shoot differently, and if your way works...great. But I see it as a great advantage to prep my Glock triggers on long shots, and doing fast as I can from the holster drills up close. I believe training/practice can & will overcome safety issues. No ND's for me. Hopefully never.
So at my afternoon session, I was shooting 7 and 10 yard Bill drills (1.90 @7 and 2.05 @10 using the no-prep method). My wife and I transitioned to 25 yard Bill drills on the head. I was shooting a G17, OEM barrel, minus connector and Taran sights, and she was shooting a G34. Both of us are using the no-prep method. Here are my two Bill drills at 25 yards with no-prep:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/bill2_zps86190d4a.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/bill2_zps86190d4a.jpg.html)
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/bill1_zps91f967ff.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/bill1_zps91f967ff.jpg.html)
GJM is effectively extrapolating a DA pull technique into shooting an SFA trigger. Whether a shooter is able to do so or not is an individual issue, but the point here is avoidance of trigger snatch and anticipation that are commonly (but not invariably) associated with prep technique, especially when shot with service grade triggers at speed. I have encountered this too when shooting LEM trigger, which is preppiest of them all if you want to prep one.
The best way I have seen it taught is called the "Red Coat Drill" - learned this in a Sayoc Tactical Group class (http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2012/07/aar-warrior-pistol-10-tom-kier-may-2627.html).
All students line up, everyone preps to whatever percent the instructor calls, then when he says "break" everyone should fire at the same time, in a line - red coat firing line style. You will ND a lot, especially if you are not familiar with your trigger system. Glocks have different triggers - if SA/DA always use it in the single action mode.
Personally, I prep the trigger up until there is no more slack. The more you shoot your pistol the more familiar you will become - this is a must for EDC guns.
When you prep the trigger that there is no more slack, there is still a little bit of wiggle room there. The way you get this little bit of wiggle room out is by shooting accuracy at 25 yards, reference my posts on the "200 drill" (http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/search?q=200+drill) - also something I learned from the Sayoc Tactical Group classes.
This is where dry-fire is extremely important. For every one shot you take at the range you should dry-fire a minimum of three times. You have to work your flinch out - which is not an absolute process because it can come back instantly and leave just as fast. You have to know yourself, your gun, your ammo and how you function under stress.
Prepping trigger on the draw stroke? I am understanding this correctly, ND's as part of practice ? Is this a technique that is widely taught? because I have always under the impression that the finger should not be on the trigger until it is you are ready and it is safe to fire a round.
There just sounds like there is a boat load of potential for something bad to happen under a stressful event, when one fears for his life. Believe me I have the utmost respect for law and mil, but most do not shoot more than once a year to qualify and then only because it it required. I have talked with many, and this is the first I have heard of this technique. This may work for the 1% but is the risk rally worth the reward?
If this is a viable method, I can not imagine the amount of practice that would be required to master this. ie. I do know some elite level trainers advocate the use of the hand to release the action on an AR as opposed to using the thumb because of the loss of dexterity and fine motor skills under stress. In addition I have also heard that a 5 lbs is about perfect pull weight for a trigger on a carry gun. I understand that the weight has no bearing on the process of prepping, but it goes back to that STRESS and Loss of fine motor skills and dexterity thing.
I probably do a lot of things subconsciously when shooting, but my trigger is not in motion before my sights are on target. Personally, i am not pointing my gun or putting my finger on the trigger until I am ready for BANG!
I am not trying to be antagonistic this is just my understanding and opinion.
And this is another advantage of not prepping the trigger during the draw stroke. It has happened to me, and many others I have seen -- trying to draw aggressively, prep the trigger faster, and get an early shot. Especially so with striker pistols.
What I am doing now is presenting the pistol as quickly as I can, confirming sight alignment, and then rolling through the trigger in one motion. The finger lightly touches the trigger face as the pistol hits extension, but the press only happens after sight alignment and the decision to fire. I was worried that it would result in a slower draw, but it doesn't. I am seeing low .80's to an A zone at 7 yards from OWB, which is no different than when I am prepping the trigger on the way out. The reason I believe it is no slower, is that it doesn't take measurably longer to move the trigger the whole travel than the amount of travel from the wall. It may even be faster because of how you can roll the whole length of the trigger.
The whole key to this method is your ability to press the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights. The wall drill is your friend here. If you can't press the trigger straight back, then prepping may help, as you have less opportunity to disturb the sights with less travel. Once you get comfortable rolling the whole distance, shooting groups is very low stress, as are other difficult shots -- just align the sights and roll the trigger, dispensing with the intensity of staging the trigger.
Prepping trigger on the draw stroke? I am understanding this correctly, ND's as part of practice ? Is this a technique that is widely taught? because I have always under the impression that the finger should not be on the trigger until it is you are ready and it is safe to fire a round.
There just sounds like there is a boat load of potential for something bad to happen under a stressful event, when one fears for his life. Believe me I have the utmost respect for law and mil, but most do not shoot more than once a year to qualify and then only because it it required. I have talked with many, and this is the first I have heard of this technique. This may work for the 1% but is the risk rally worth the reward?
Then you have not talked with as many as you may think. Google it. It's not new nor uncommon per se, but as discussed, not appropriate choice for all shooters, platforms, etc. It is very common to competitive shooters and some combat shooters. Looks like it was a good topic to bring up for discussion. :cool:
If this is a viable method, I can not imagine the amount of practice that would be required to master this. ie. I do know some elite level trainers advocate the use of the hand to release the action on an AR as opposed to using the thumb because of the loss of dexterity and fine motor skills under stress. In addition I have also heard that a 5 lbs is about perfect pull weight for a trigger on a carry gun. I understand that the weight has no bearing on the process of prepping, but it goes back to that STRESS and Loss of fine motor skills and dexterity thing.
I probably do a lot of things subconsciously when shooting, but my trigger is not in motion before my sights are on target. Personally, i am not pointing my gun or putting my finger on the trigger until I am ready for BANG!
I am not trying to be antagonistic this is just my understanding and opinion.
I think you'd get a better rounded understanding of the pros/cons by reading full thread perhaps. You'll note, it's not being pushed nor advocated for as the "right" way at all.
Todd Jarrett and Rob Leatham seem to prefer this "sweeping" technique of trigger manipulation. I would like to take a class with either and get a better idea of how best to give it a try.
Voodoo_Man
11-28-14, 19:06
Without getting into the particular's, if you work with firearms for a living, the faster you get on the trigger the greater the chance of you winning a confrontation.
I did not invent it, I just learned it from those who learned it from others who also work with firearms.
Just for reference - nothing I do is OWB (other than on duty). IWB from concealment is vastly more difficult than OWB unconcealed (not talking about vest's as concealment, that is just sad). I've hit low .9x's one shot, 7y from concealment IWB. OWB while I've never tried without retention, with my safariland triple retention rig I am in the low 1.1x area consistently, that is on buzzer defeating retention.
The "on sight on trigger" or the other way around is a range-safety thing that has made the jump into instruction. Real world confrontations, often times, do not hold to the "front sight" motto. There are plenty of situations recorded that the only the person survived (usually LEO) is because they discharged right from the holster and walked their shots up to the target aiming only at full extension.
Failure2Stop
11-28-14, 19:40
GJM, looks like it's working for you.
So at my afternoon session, I was shooting 7 and 10 yard Bill drills (1.90 @7 and 2.05 @10 using the no-prep method). My wife and I transitioned to 25 yard Bill drills on the head. I was shooting a G17, OEM barrel, minus connector and Taran sights, and she was shooting a G34. Both of us are using the no-prep method. Here are my two Bill drills at 25 yards with no-prep:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/bill2_zps86190d4a.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/bill2_zps86190d4a.jpg.html)
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/bill1_zps91f967ff.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/bill1_zps91f967ff.jpg.html)I know we have been having this discussion in the thread you linked at I will note that in these bill drills that you posted from those distances I would not prep the trigger. Even at 100 yards on 10 inch steel you would not see too much difference if I did or did not prep. If I push 150 to 200 plus guarantee I am taking out the slack to the wall and starting the rolling pull from that point. Which is why I think there was so much differing opinion in that thread. Like I s aid there probably 99% of my shooting has no use or need for taking it to the wall. In fact if you are shooting any bill drill using a prep than pull and you are probably way slow or a phenom. I know that if I am shooting sub 2 bill drills there is no way I have time to prep and pull even while normally resetting under recoil.
Going back to OP:
Trigger Prep Discussion
To define, trigger prep is taking up the slack on a trigger before breaking the shot. It's often explained as a two stage process. For those accustomed to that, where on your draw stroke do you start to prep the trigger? Or, do you not prep the trigger on the first shot from the draw, but do prep the trigger on follow up shots? One obvious potential drawback to prepping the trigger on the draw is the increased potential for ND, so practicing it a must. Many never learn it nor are taught it. Maybe not such a bad thing....How was it taught to you during training/courses and if an instructor, how do you teach it to others? When/where do you incorporate it? It's considered a more advanced method of trigger control, but where in the learning chain did you incorporate it?
Here are my thoughts:
Three things must exist before your finger comes onto the trigger - 1) target identified as threat; 2) sights on target; 3) decision to fire. For our purposes what we really mean in 2) is 'weapon indexed on target.'
Police officers essentially either draw to cover/search or draw to fire. It is important for the officer to understand and differentiate between these two tasks.
On the draw to fire (the way we teach) when the weapon has risen to the nipple line, the weapon is under the dominant eye and the hands have joined, the muzzle should be indexed on the target, at that point, as the shooter punches/pushes/extends/presents the weapon to full extension the finger comes onto the trigger and takes up the pre-travel, at full extension the shooter presses and fires. We teach reset as the weapon recoils and press as sights are confirmed.
On a DA/SA or a DAO it depends on the shooter - ideally on a draw to fire they are working the trigger through the DA pull and finishing just as the weapon is at extension. The DA manipulation is the money shot for the police officers, we try to get them to 'jump off the bridge' and commit to the first shot as long as the sights are on target.
I think one of the problems that many of us have in explaining and teaching is that we really don't relate to our students. I train folks who for the most part will shoot about 2,000 rounds with us, and then shoot less than 300 rounds a year for their careers. For the most part they won't dry fire unless it is structured training.
The problem that I recognize with teaching 'working the trigger on the way to the target' is the fact that they might very well default to that for every draw they do - which is a potential safety problem; on the other hand they may just as easily default to the draw to cover technique and end up at full extension with their finger indexed on the frame of the weapon. Who knows?
What I do know is that when I focus them on prepping the trigger during the first 150 rounds they fire from the holster, there seem to be a lot less wild first shots from the Glocks and other striker fired pistols when we start adding stress.
I am in the process of teaching my daughters to shoot and am following the advice Bill Rogers gave me during his course - he'd teach speed first then precision. As a result beyond showing them safe handling, how the weapon works and sa/sp, I haven't said a word to them about trigger manipulation. One is shooting a M&P22 the other is shooting a GSG 1911/22 - I bought the M&P for them to share and also was letting them shoot my 1911 with a conversion as well as a Ruger Mk1, one liked the M&P, the other liked the 1911, so I bought her the GSG. I'm going to see how they work through it - so far so good. They are still finger off the trigger until they are on target.
I know we have been having this discussion in the thread you linked at I will note that in these bill drills that you posted from those distances I would not prep the trigger. Even at 100 yards on 10 inch steel you would not see too much difference if I did or did not prep. If I push 150 to 200 plus guarantee I am taking out the slack to the wall and starting the rolling pull from that point. Which is why I think there was so much differing opinion in that thread. Like I s aid there probably 99% of my shooting has no use or need for taking it to the wall. In fact if you are shooting any bill drill using a prep than pull and you are probably way slow or a phenom. I know that if I am shooting sub 2 bill drills there is no way I have time to prep and pull even while normally resetting under recoil.
Surf, thanks for commenting. To summarize, I think you are saying you press the trigger without prepping on close, fast stuff like a Bill, that you are indifferent as to prep or not out to 100, and you definitely prep at 150-200.
I am not prepping close and out to 100, and definitely get better results without prepping. I haven't shot groups with the Glock at 150-200, so I have no idea what works best for me there.
Shows this trigger stuff is as much art as science, and there are different ways to skin the cat.
Going back to OP:
Here are my thoughts:
Three things must exist before your finger comes onto the trigger - 1) target identified as threat; 2) sights on target; 3) decision to fire. For our purposes what we really mean in 2) is 'weapon indexed on target.'
We teach reset as the weapon recoils and press as sights are confirmed.
I agree with you on these points and I believe they will keep you out of trouble when un-holstering a pistol to address a threat in CONUS. I teach the "second hand on the clock" or roll technique when conducting pistol classes and it seems to work well. For speed shooting, I teach what I call a "cam shaft roll" technique. These techniques may not win you any USPSA titles, but they work well for the rank and file.
The only time I prep, aka: preload, the trigger on a pistol is when shooting precision pistol at 50 yards or farther. I still wait until the sights are indexed on target before placing the trigger finger inside the trigger guard. On a revolver, you might call it "staging" the trigger.
Prepping, aka: preloading, the trigger works well when shooting offhand with a rifle with a two stage trigger at 300 yards and when shooting from other positions between 400 and 1,000 yards.
I believe the most important teaching point about trigger manipulation at defensive firearm courses or when discussing the issue with other instructors, is to keep the finger outside the trigger guard, with a revolver, pistol or rifle, until the rifle is raised or pistol is presented and the muzzle is pointed toward the threat or target.
I haven't attended a USPSA or IPSC shooting course, so I would not know what they suggest.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.