View Full Version : Has anyone thought about concealed carry in regards to Officer Wilson's situation?
By that I mean going back to da/sa over striker fired due to the slide being pushed out of battery? I have. To fire again on a striker fired gun you would need to recock the gun whereas with a da/sa you wouldn't need to.
Voodoo_Man
11-29-14, 12:17
Carry and be proficient with a blade before you go to gun.
Thread double over.
Pros and cons to each design. If you have options you choose what you feel most comfortable with and serves your purpose best to you. Be it striker or DA. Lastly, you train with what you use and become proficient.
It's certainly a valid question in that situation. Tap rack may well not be feasible in a fight over a gun so that certainly isn't a definitive answer in a thread over sense. In a police situation a blade is not a good idea for obvious reasons. The reality is that a striker fired gun is at a distinct disadvantage in a situation where hands are on the slide of a gun for the reason the op mentioned. Of course there are other situations such as a hammer potentially being blocked where the hammer fired gun is at a disadvantage.
Thanks for the constructive comments :rolleyes: Don't leave your house. Thread over.
dmaxfireman
11-29-14, 12:42
Please correct me if I am wrong,
If you push either out of battery and pull the trigger they will not fire, The DA/SA will default back to a double action pull and the striker fired will not have released the striker. As soon as it returns to battery both will still fire when the trigger is pulled. If the the slide is prevented from cycling both will need a tap/rack to be returned to service. Why would DA/SA be an advantage over a striker fired choice in this situation? Am I missing something?
Edit: If anything I think the striker would be a better choice in a situation like this because a finger/hand/whatever can be put in place to stop the hammer from falling
Please correct me if I am wrong,
If you push either out of battery and pull the trigger they will not fire, The DA/SA will default back to a double action pull and the striker fired will not have released the striker. As soon as it returns to battery both will still fire when the trigger is pulled. The the slide is prevented from cycling either will need a tap rack to be returned to service. Why would DA/SA be an advantage over a striker fired choice in this situation? Am I missing something?
Would depend on how far out of battery the gun is pushed. I have seen handguns pushed far enough out of battery not to fire, but still be able to pull the trigger and release the striker or hammer. For a DA gun, once it returned to battery you could then fire opposed to taking action with a striker fired gun.
Please correct me if I am wrong,
If you push either out of battery and pull the trigger they will not fire, The DA/SA will default back to a double action pull and the striker fired will not have released the striker. As soon as it returns to battery both will still fire when the trigger is pulled. If the the slide is prevented from cycling both will need a tap/rack to be returned to service. Why would DA/SA be an advantage over a striker fired choice in this situation? Am I missing something?
You can push the slide just enough out of battery that the firing pin will not strike the primer but the gun will still release the striker. In that situation you would have to function the slide to fire again. With a hammer gun you just keep pulling the trigger. Probably a pretty rare situation but a possibility.
dmaxfireman
11-29-14, 12:53
Would depend on how far out of battery the gun is pushed. I have seen handguns pushed far enough out of battery not to fire, but still be able to pull the trigger and release the striker or hammer. For a DA gun, once it returned to battery you could then fire opposed to taking action with a striker fired gun.
Learn something new everyday. Out of curiosity, what type / brand have you seen this happen with?
Thanks for the constructive comments :rolleyes: Don't leave your house. Thread over.
You're over thinking this. Period, end of story. If there is a problem, you fix the pistol. Switching platforms and action types to avoid a potential problem that can happen with either system makes zero sense.
Citing the Darren Wilson situation shows even less of an understanding of the "issue" and has nothing to do with anything. Using it as a catalyst for thought in regard to CCW situations is just...eek man, eek...
In addition you're just plain wrong in your understanding of how these pistols work. I can drop the hammer on both my P09 and 92 series pistols with the slide being out of battery which results in the pistol NOT firing because the hammer hits the bottom of the rear of the slide and not the firing pin.
Also, on a striker fired pistol, when the slide is pushed out of battery, the gun COCKS ITSELF...
Lastly, whenever in doubt, if you perceive there to be an issue with the pistol, you fix it via remedial action.
Please clarify if you are observing something different with your pistols so that we can better address the issue that you believe you may have.
I've been having some good conversation back and forth with a buddy of mine who puts a lot of thought into everything gun related. We threw around a pile of ideas a few days ago.
In officer Wilson's case the general conclusion has been that during the tussle for control of the gun, the slide on his p229 was pushed rearward and the gun was out of battery. That is possible and that could be exactly what happened. Another possibility is that there was something between the hammer and slide, such as part of the attackers hand like the webbing between the attacker's thumb and forefinger. This is one of the reasons I moved away from guns with external hammers for SD.
Regarding striker fired guns: If the slide was forced rearward out of battery, once the slide moves forward into battery the gun should fire. I would have to handle one, but with an M&P for example, the slide travel required to take the gun out of battery is the same as what is required to reset the trigger. Proper training would have a tap-rack hardwired on a dead trigger anyhow.
I don't know if you guys have talked to any wheel gun guys that are all over this. I've seen a few posts here and there. Though unlikely, the cylinder could have it's rotation stopped if someone was to grab a revolver as well. Don't get me wrong revolvers are super reliable, but as I tell my revolver buddies, they fail every five or six rounds. Take a look at the rounds fired in officer Wilson's altercation as well. Two before he got out of the car. It took ten more to stop the threat. I'll take tap-rack over a revolver reload any day.
Looks like a some already beat me to the punch:
Edit: If anything I think the striker would be a better choice in a situation like this because a finger/hand/whatever can be put in place to stop the hammer from falling
Also, on a striker fired pistol, when the slide is pushed out of battery, the gun COCKS ITSELF...
The serious shooters carry 1911 or Browning Hi-Power whenever possible. No problem.
Draw your BUG or knife. Make the attacker as uncomfortable and unable to continue as possible as quickly as possible.
That reminds me, I need to practice transitioning to knife and BUG. So that's next week's training agenda for me at the range.
I'm not a police officer, so can't speak for their procedures and rules of engagement, but:
1) I would not verbally confront a huge man like Brown, period, for any reason. The cop had to.
2) I would not let a person who appeared to be a threat get close enough to me to wrestle my handgun out of my holster.
A person who carries should learn most of all that the best fight to be fought is the one that can be avoided.
Policemen do not have that option many times. Civilians do.
I'm not a police officer, so can't speak for their procedures and rules of engagement, but:
1) I would not verbally confront a huge man like Brown, period, for any reason. The cop had to.
2) I would not let a person who appeared to be a threat get close enough to me to wrestle my handgun out of my holster.
A person who carries should learn most of all that the best fight to be fought is the one that can be avoided.
Policemen do not have that option many times. Civilians do.
What if a huge man was already close to you (standing in line at a store) and then an altercation ensued. Now whats your (3)???
You can push the slide just enough out of battery that the firing pin will not strike the primer but the gun will still release the striker. In that situation you would have to function the slide to fire again. With a hammer gun you just keep pulling the trigger. Probably a pretty rare situation but a possibility.
This was my understanding as well and brought the subject up to discuss the mechanical differences in this situation.
You're over thinking this. Period, end of story. If there is a problem, you fix the pistol. Switching platforms and action types to avoid a potential problem that can happen with either system makes zero sense.
Citing the Darren Wilson situation shows even less of an understanding of the "issue" and has nothing to do with anything. Using it as a catalyst for thought in regard to CCW situations is just...eek man, eek...
In addition you're just plain wrong in your understanding of how these pistols work. I can drop the hammer on both my P09 and 92 series pistols with the slide being out of battery which results in the pistol NOT firing because the hammer hits the bottom of the rear of the slide and not the firing pin.
Also, on a striker fired pistol, when the slide is pushed out of battery, the gun COCKS ITSELF...
Lastly, whenever in doubt, if you perceive there to be an issue with the pistol, you fix it via remedial action.
Please clarify if you are observing something different with your pistols so that we can better address the issue that you believe you may have.
Do I think you need to rethink your weapon? No, you just need to understand the actions you might need to take to get it back in the fight in a close contact situation.
Whether that is getting the weapon back into the fight, using a BUG or alternative weapon, it all depends.
Hand to hand combat skills would probably be more important than choice of weapon if you've arrived at the point where you need to fire and the bad guy has a hold of your gun.
This is a very easily remedied situation that we teach to specifically in our training. Mods could you please IM me to discuss if we can use our company name and discuss this technique (as it involves the use of lethal force)?
"The only thing new is the history you don't know".
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turnburglar
11-30-14, 03:20
What if a huge man was already close to you (standing in line at a store) and then an altercation ensued. Now whats your (3)???
One time someone asked Bruce Lee..... "What if a man of immovable size is on top of you? What would you do than? "
Bruce quickly responded: "**** you, I bite him"
dmaxfireman
11-30-14, 08:35
I'm still waiting to see an example of this or for somebody to tell me what platform it is possible on. I have been unable to replicate this on any Glocks / M&P's / and a Ruger SR9 using a primed empty case. The striker will not fall when out of battery. If the slide is pushed back only slightly the striker will still release and ignite the primer.
This is a very easily remedied situation that we teach to specifically in our training. Mods could you please IM me to discuss if we can use our company name and discuss this technique (as it involves the use of lethal force)?
"The only thing new is the history you don't know".
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
This is why I did not comment on techniques to fend off an attacker and am sticking to commentary about weapon selection.
For those who believe a DA/SA will fire if the slide is out of full battery, I tested this by wearing thick leather gloves and attempting to fire the pistol at varying degrees of out of battery condition. Almost 100% of the time the pistol would not fire, but almost is not good enough.
I also conducted testing on whether or not the slide would cycle with a good grip over the slide group and dust cover when the weapon fired. The slide would not cycle on a S&W 39-2, S&W 6904, Glock 22 and 1911 shooting service/defensive ammunition.
I also conducted testing concerning the concept that the S&W 39-2 and 6904 would not fire with the magazine removed. On a well worn pistol, they will fire with the magazine removed. On a newer pistol, any pressure applied to the trigger before the magazine is dropped will also allow it to fire.
Do not try this with live ammunition, because there is a great deal of risk involved. Using a primed case while wearing eye and hearing protection is the best way to confirm any of this for yourself.
You should incorporate weapon malfunction clearing into your training to address any concerns about whether or not a pistol will fire under any given conditions or circumstances.
Beat Trash
11-30-14, 09:48
This is a training issue, not an equipment issue.
My agency started training around out of battery issues when we had two separate OIS incidents last year, where officers had weapon lights on their pistols and still had out of battery situations. These were caused by suspects being fatter around the middle, and the fat rolls along with rotation of the gun slightly during the struggle caused the out of battery. In both incidents officers were struggling with armed suspects and contact shots were the only option for various reasons.
The training consists of using a rubber dummy designed to be shot. I don't know the name of the manufacture. We call it, "Bad Bob". The training starts with the Officer jamming their pistol into the side of Bob until an out of battery is caused. The Officer pulls trigger w/o effect, then the officer retracts their gun straight back as they continue to pull trigger, until two rounds are fired. We have a rage staff member stand right behind the officer to control the training excersize and ensure safety.
The issued guns in question are S&W M&P9's.
Out of battery can happen in a struggle, no matter if it is a striker fired pistol or a DA/SA pistol. As an officer, you do not always have a say in the way events will unfold. If you did, there would be no critical incidents. Struggling with a suspect is a chaotic and violent event. As a civilian CCW holder, you have a few more options as it relates to you becoming involved in an incident. But once the incident finds you, CCW or LEO, there are things you can control, and there are things that will be beyond your control.
With that thought in mind, to answer the OP's question, I would recommend a person carry the pistol they are most proficient at putting rounds on target with. I would not let an out of battery incident factor into the selection of the gun.
Draw your BUG or knife. Make the attacker as uncomfortable and unable to continue as possible as quickly as possible.
That reminds me, I need to practice transitioning to knife and BUG. So that's next week's training agenda for me at the range.
Dude is fighting with you over 1 gun and you want to go for another gun? That seems like a really really really bad idea.
Voodoo_Man
11-30-14, 10:19
Dude is fighting with you over 1 gun and you want to go for another gun? That seems like a really really really bad idea.
That's what backup's are for....not NY reloads.
That's what backup's are for....not NY reloads.
I was of the opinion it was for if the primary had a malfunction that wasn't fixable without tools. If I can not maintain control of my primary, I do not think it is a good idea to introduce a second gun into the equation. While I'm going for it, the attacker has a two on one. Seems like it opens the door to both of us getting shot. If the primary had a double feed, I could see giving it away and going for the secondary, beyond that the knowledge that pistols are shitty at immediately stopping a threat leads me to the conclusion that I don't want him to have a 2 on 1 for my pistol.
LightningFast
11-30-14, 11:33
I'm in awe that weapon retention is JUST coming to some people's minds, and then it's viewed as an equipment discussion.
Voodoo_Man
11-30-14, 12:31
I was of the opinion it was for if the primary had a malfunction that wasn't fixable without tools. If I can not maintain control of my primary, I do not think it is a good idea to introduce a second gun into the equation. While I'm going for it, the attacker has a two on one. Seems like it opens the door to both of us getting shot. If the primary had a double feed, I could see giving it away and going for the secondary, beyond that the knowledge that pistols are shitty at immediately stopping a threat leads me to the conclusion that I don't want him to have a 2 on 1 for my pistol.
Depends on what you are doing and the situation.
LEO's carry BUG's in case some gets their primary - same concept with blades.
Just take ECQC.
That is all....
Just take ECQC.
That is all....
It is an amazing class
Depends on what you are doing and the situation.
LEO's carry BUG's in case some gets their primary - same concept with blades.
I carry a knife, primarily as a tool to get someone off to facilitate a draw. You are right, that is it very situational, I don't say never, but I don't see many situations where retaining your gun is less important than drawing a second gun.
I think it is a legitimate question. That said no I am not reconsidering my carry gun. I feel that if my primary goes down because it is out of battery, then the fight is on and I will probably be deploying a knife.
This is a good example of why you need to be familiar with you gear though.
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As was mentioned above this is a software/training issue not hardware issue. ECQC with SouthNarc is just the ticket.
Also, why do some people think that if the trigger is pulled on Glock while the slide is out of battery that it will not fire once the slide moves forward and properly locks into battery again? When the Glock slide is pushed out of battery you can pull the trigger until it drops but as soon as the slide moves forward the trigger will reset and you can fire the gun again, assuming that you have an unfired round in the chamber. The Glock trigger will not stay in the down position after the slide is allowed to move forward all the way and this is why it must be dry fired before field stripping.
Try it with an unloaded Glock and see for yourself. Make sure it's unloaded!!! Now use the field strip grip and pull the it slightly our of battery. If it's only pushed back slightly the trigger will move back and forth but it will not drop striker. If you move the slide back farther you will feel the trigger bar actually drop and release the striker. Now when you release the slide the trigger will reset and you will still be able to fire it.
Also, if you look down in to the chamber when the trigger drops you will see that the extension on the trigger bar that deactivates the firing pin block will move up but since it is not in contact with the firing pin block you will not see the tip of the firing pin protrude into the slide. This means your gun will not fire out of battery as long as your firing pin safety is in good working condition.
Obviously nothing will happen if you already have fired round in the chamber but this will be the case with any pistol and the slide will need to be racked to chamber a new round before it can be fired again.
Carry and be proficient with a blade before you go to gun.
Thread double over.
What kind of blade designs are you specifically talking about?
Voodoo_Man
11-30-14, 22:58
What kind of blade designs are you specifically talking about?
Training is more important than blade design, but there are some pretty popular blade designs out there.
That's for a different thread though.
Just take ECQC.
That is all....We have a winner http://youtu.be/wtUkeC7WwDc. Recent events with the struggle over weapon, got me to signed up for my first ECQC class. The fact it looks fun as hell is just an added bonus. http://youtu.be/YPO3h2bTe9w
Training is more important than blade design, but there are some pretty popular blade designs out there.
That's for a different thread though.
I would like to learn more.
Is there a thread going or should I start one?
I care because I live in CA which is a non permissive environment, and most knives are usually OK to carry.
We have a winner http://youtu.be/wtUkeC7WwDc. Recent events with the struggle over weapon, got me to signed up for my first ECQC class. The fact it looks fun as hell is just an added bonus. http://youtu.be/YPO3h2bTe9w
Which one are you going to?
Voodoo_Man
12-01-14, 09:02
I would like to learn more.
Is there a thread going or should I start one?
I care because I live in CA which is a non permissive environment, and most knives are usually OK to carry.
CA? find yourself a Sayoc-affiliated kali school. Best blade training there is.
Alpha Sierra
12-01-14, 09:39
Nothing that happened in Ferguson has made me re-think anything about concealed carry.
As was mentioned above this is a software/training issue not hardware issue. ECQC with SouthNarc is just the ticket.
Also, why do some people think that if the trigger is pulled on Glock while the slide is out of battery that it will not fire once the slide moves forward and properly locks into battery again? When the Glock slide is pushed out of battery you can pull the trigger until it drops but as soon as the slide moves forward the trigger will reset and you can fire the gun again, assuming that you have an unfired round in the chamber. The Glock trigger will not stay in the down position after the slide is allowed to move forward all the way and this is why it must be dry fired before field stripping.
Try it with an unloaded Glock and see for yourself. Make sure it's unloaded!!! Now use the field strip grip and pull the it slightly our of battery. If it's only pushed back slightly the trigger will move back and forth but it will not drop striker. If you move the slide back farther you will feel the trigger bar actually drop and release the striker. Now when you release the slide the trigger will reset and you will still be able to fire it.
Also, if you look down in to the chamber when the trigger drops you will see that the extension on the trigger bar that deactivates the firing pin block will move up but since it is not in contact with the firing pin block you will not see the tip of the firing pin protrude into the slide. This means your gun will not fire out of battery as long as your firing pin safety is in good working condition.
Obviously nothing will happen if you already have fired round in the chamber but this will be the case with any pistol and the slide will need to be racked to chamber a new round before it can be fired again.
I tried the duplicate the issue with an empty chamber on my Glock 17 and the trigger did release out of battery, however the striker was not released as I was able to pull the trigger again once the slide was back into back into battery which answers that question.
I've taken classes that had instruction on weapon retention. Life isn't perfect and shit happens. I know how to get the gun back in the fight when there is a malfunction. I'm sure we all do. Again I brought the subject up to discuss the mechanical differences between striker fired guns and da/sa where a da/sa gun would fire once back in battery vs a striker which might not.
Which one are you going to?March class in Athens. Might sign up for more depending on funds/location.
March class in Athens. Might sign up for more depending on funds/location.
Should be one outside of new orleans at the end of next year.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-01-14, 22:13
In battery shot, but the slide retarded due to being held and not allowing reloading. To me the lesson is to be proficient in remedial action one handed since your still probably hands-on with the assailant.
If a Glock is pushed out of battery like that the trigger is dead. There will be no click like in Wilson's case. As soon as the gun returns to battery you are good to go and can fire the weapon. This case would have been no different if he was carrying a Glock.
The first shot was fired with Brown's hand on top of the slide and Wilson's left hand on top of that. The slide didn't cycle and Wilson was not able to fire a second time until he racked the slide. Still no different if he was carrying a Glock.
As far as a blade goes, I wear a Emerson on my left side so I can get to it in a weapon retention situation and open it with one hand. That being said, Wilson would not have been able to in his case. If you read his statement's Brown was forcing the gun to point into Wilson's hip area (bad news) and Wilson had to use both hands and leverage of the seat to force the weapon back into Brown's direction. You have to have options, but Wilson's options were limited. The big mistake he made was pulling up so close to the suspect's, when you are out numbered, distance is your friend.
There have been a number of folks saying that this could not happen with a glock. That is simply not true. It is possible (though not likely) to pull the trigger of a glock when the slide is out of battery. The result will be a light primer strike. This will cause a malfunction and a remedial action drill will be needed.
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Strange thread relating Officer Wilson's predicament to CCW, but hey, it was clear that his training took over and he seemed to relate his thought process during his testimony fairly clearly.
Carry and be proficient with a blade before you go to gun.
Draw your BUG or knife. Make the attacker as uncomfortable and unable to continue as possible as quickly as possible.
That reminds me, I need to practice transitioning to knife and BUG. So that's next week's training agenda for me at the range.
It's interesting so many of you mentioned pulling out a knife... a couple of questions/thoughts...
Do LE even train to consider their carry knives (almost all LE that I know have a knife somewhere) as part of their use-of-force options? Officer Wilson worked through his, apparently... mace (not viable), baton (not viable/accessible), flashlight (not accessible), taser (didn't have one), firearm. No mention of a knife. His firearm had obvious failures-to-fire which he recovered from accordingly (tap rack bang, more or less). The reason I ask is that we don't seem to hear very often about any LE incidents where an officer knifes a suspect...
I think circumstances are slightly different when your gun is already out vs. if you are still holstered and trying to create an opportunity to draw by covering your primary with your strong hand in a retention stance and going for a knife with your support hand or whatever. If your gun is already out and the assailant is trying to wrestle it from you with all his strength (assuming both hands)... how likely is it that one can afford to use their support hand to draw out either a blade or a BUG while maintaining control/orientation of their primary? Or do you drop the primary mag, try to rack out the chamber (or rely on mag-disconnect), and then go to knife/BUG?
Voodoo_Man
12-02-14, 04:03
Deadly force is not just a gun. Deadly force is anything being used to stop the threat of deadly force. If he had a blade he could go to blade and gun, back to blade and so forth as its not absolute. Most PDs have no training for blades. Many do not have a single policy on that subject either. Mine simply states you shall carry a knife on you at all times - no mention of amount, size, configuration or otherwise. We have had officers use then as deadly force instruments successfully while fighting over their firearm.
I would highly suggest practice, training and research to that end. I carry a TDI LE blade, behind my pistol. Its implementation is quick, its slick and once you find a good method of carry you forget it exists. It is used as a "get off my gun" tool.
I would highly suggest practice, training and research to that end. I carry a TDI LE blade, behind my pistol. Its implementation is quick, its slick and once you find a good method of carry you forget it exists. It is used as a "get off my gun" tool.
Yeah I've noticed that a few guys run a fixed blade in a Kydex sheath right in front of, or right behind, their pistol for this purpose.
I always wonder if it would be better served on the support hand side?
Voodoo_Man
12-02-14, 05:58
Yeah I've noticed that a few guys run a fixed blade in a Kydex sheath right in front of, or right behind, their pistol for this purpose.
I always wonder if it would be better served on the support hand side?
Depends on training and concept.
It is far back enough I can reach it with my left hand.
Yeah I've noticed that a few guys run a fixed blade in a Kydex sheath right in front of, or right behind, their pistol for this purpose.
I always wonder if it would be better served on the support hand side?
If I dont have a pistol, I carry strong side. If I do, I carry support side. I have two sheaths, one configured each way. I carry support side with pistol so I can draw the pistol after using the knife, while retaining the knife.
Apricotshot
12-02-14, 12:21
I'd bet $1 Billion Obama Bucks that if Mr. Wilson did have a knife that it was most likely clipped in his righthand pocket. Completely unable to get to it while fighting off a giant attached to his pistol.
Voodoo_Man
12-02-14, 15:33
I'd bet $1 Billion Obama Bucks that if Mr. Wilson did have a knife that it was most likely clipped in his righthand pocket. Completely unable to get to it while fighting off a giant attached to his pistol.
I'd agree on this.
The biggest issue here is that folding blades are sold with pocket clips and people think they are very good "self defense" tools. Even the Emerson-types that deploy on grab out of pocket. No one seems to understand under stress you will more than likely not be able to get that blade out and/or deployed properly and/or in the right hand position to effect the outcome of that confrontation.
I'd agree on this.
The biggest issue here is that folding blades are sold with pocket clips and people think they are very good "self defense" tools. Even the Emerson-types that deploy on grab out of pocket. No one seems to understand under stress you will more than likely not be able to get that blade out and/or deployed properly and/or in the right hand position to effect the outcome of that confrontation.
If you read Wilson's statement, it appears even if he had a knife on the left side he would not have been able to use it. He states that he had to use both hands on the weapon cause Brown was twisting the weapon into his hip area and Brown was much stronger. Also the left side of his body was facing the seat as he was facing the driver's window. A left hand draw may have been inaccessible do to his position and if he would have taken his left hand off the weapon to deploy a blade, he would have possibly been shot as Brown was able to achieve twisting the weapon.
A left hand blade deployment is much easier to consider if a suspect grabs for an officers weapon while still in the holster. Officer's right hand would come down on the suspect's hand which is on the weapon. Officer would push down trying to keep the suspect from pulling the weapon, and the left hand would be able to deploy the blade. Once the weapon is out of the holster and being fought for, its extremely dangerous to take any hand off the weapon and go for a second.
Voodoo_Man
12-02-14, 18:10
If you read Wilson's statement, it appears even if he had a knife on the left side he would not have been able to use it. He states that he had to use both hands on the weapon cause Brown was twisting the weapon into his hip area and Brown was much stronger. Also the left side of his body was facing the seat as he was facing the driver's window. A left hand draw may have been inaccessible do to his position and if he would have taken his left hand off the weapon to deploy a blade, he would have possibly been shot as Brown was able to achieve twisting the weapon.
A left hand blade deployment is much easier to consider if a suspect grabs for an officers weapon while still in the holster. Officer's right hand would come down on the suspect's hand which is on the weapon. Officer would push down trying to keep the suspect from pulling the weapon, and the left hand would be able to deploy the blade. Once the weapon is out of the holster and being fought for, its extremely dangerous to take any hand off the weapon and go for a second.
I was not advocating left hand deployment. I was stating having a knife in your left pants pocket on a clip will not help you since it requires fine motor skills you may not possess when in a deadly force confrontation.
I stated, in an earlier post, that I carry a blade right behind my gun for this purpose.
I carry one on each side, cause you never know....
2 guns
2 knives
2 lights
So I did a little research, and here in CA, fixed blade knives are a non-starter under state law for concealed carry, so there goes the idea to have something like a TDI LE as a companion to the (rare) CCW permit out here (unless the Peruta decision survives CA9). You'd have to carry the knife openly on your hip to be legal.
Folders are legal, so that will remain the only viable/easy option for most of us second-class peons.
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