View Full Version : Training with Simunitions
EasyRhino72
12-02-14, 17:28
Anyone have any experience with these guys or something similar for civilians. Looks like great training if done right......key term there is "if done right!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzagUGGBJa4&list=PLscB-49EdZcuKOrDogPOGkeTde5OqGTT3&index=2
Thx,
Craig Douglas' AMIS is a great class that is sim guns only. It is great validation and the most realistic way to test your skills against a moving, thinking, and likely skilled adversary. If you get the opportunity to train with sim guns I'd take it. It is an amazing experience, I say that doubly for any Southnarc class. Dunno if I'd do it in an office that nice though lol
A local range offers simunitions training, and I plan on trying it out once time and funds allow. The instructors are prior combat Marines and private contractors, and they say simunitions training brings a new dynamic that everyone regardless of experience level can benefit from.
Just wear gloves and a cup. They hurt like hell in either location.
Just wear gloves and a cup. They hurt like hell in either location.
If you're not wearing the right clothes, they hurt like hell wherever they hit you, depending on distance.
Defaultmp3
12-02-14, 19:01
If you're not wearing the right clothes, they hurt like hell wherever they hit you, depending on distance.
I've taken multiple contact distance sims round to the chest while wearing nothing but a t-shirt and a wicking Under Armour shirt underneath. Yeah, it hurts, but it ain't debilitating, and I just saw it as further incentive to not **** up in an evolution (this was at the aformentioned Craig Douglas's ECQC). It's on par to getting hit with an airsoft pellet running at 400 FPS, if you've ever felt that. And maybe it was just that Craig's Sims guns have seen heavy use, but they were much, much more prone to malfunctions than your real guns. At least half of the evos that went to guns had them go tits up; lot of immediate action drills were run, and that still often failed to clear the gun properly, since many of the malfunctions were double feeds.
Sims do open a new dynamic and verify/refute what you've learned. Simunition guns are prone to more malfunctions mainly due to the ammo itself. If it is warm/humid the projectile becomes soft and wont feed properly and the bore fouls quickly. There is another brand, that I can't recall right now that would seem to eliminate some of these issues.
Defaultmp3
12-02-14, 20:18
There is another brand, that I can't recall right now that would seem to eliminate some of these issues.
UTM? I know Pat Rogers uses their products in lieu of Simunition products, because of reliability issues IIRC.
I've taken multiple contact distance sims round to the chest while wearing nothing but a t-shirt and a wicking Under Armour shirt underneath. Yeah, it hurts, but it ain't debilitating, and I just saw it as further incentive to not **** up in an evolution (this was at the aformentioned Craig Douglas's ECQC). It's on par to getting hit with an airsoft pellet running at 400 FPS, if you've ever felt that. And maybe it was just that Craig's Sims guns have seen heavy use, but they were much, much more prone to malfunctions than your real guns. At least half of the evos that went to guns had them go tits up; lot of immediate action drills were run, and that still often failed to clear the gun properly, since many of the malfunctions were double feeds.
Perhaps my @rse is just more sensitive. Never said it was debilitating, I said it hurts.
Sims do open a new dynamic and verify/refute what you've learned. Simunition guns are prone to more malfunctions mainly due to the ammo itself. If it is warm/humid the projectile becomes soft and wont feed properly and the bore fouls quickly. There is another brand, that I can't recall right now that would seem to eliminate some of these issues.
ATK Force-On-Force rounds will work in Simunition Conversion kits. I find they are more reliable and somewhat more accurate than the Simunition Fx rounds.
We had a guy attend a Vicker's class and come back all revved up to go to UTM. Didn't even consider it. Not a knock on UTM at all, it's just that once you have about 10,000 - 15,000 tied up in Simunition conversion kits and weapons, you are kind of anchored to the platform.
I prefer to do micro- fights more than full blown scenarios. Things such as failure/drug and armor drills are most effectively inoculated into the officers response with NLTA.
The whole science of why NLTA training is so effective at conditioning a response goes well beyond the whole 'it hurt's' experience.
If the trainer knows what he/she is doing, it is your best training bang for the buck IMHO. It goes right to the heart of what Steinbeck said 'The final weapon is the brain, all else is supplemental.'
I get to participate in structured FoF pretty regularly with sim cartridges and airsoft. I regard it as a vital component to the overall training and assessment package.
Getting shot with full powered sims isn't particularly painful, but it is beneficial. Those who pillow themselves head to toe lose some of the feedback effect.
EasyRhino72
12-03-14, 08:33
Great info thanks!!!
EasyRhino72
12-03-14, 08:34
Anyone know of anywhere in Northern Va that does this sort of training?
Voodoo_Man
12-03-14, 08:37
Highly recommended.
FOF with sims are very much one of the greatest training instruments on various levels. I, as much as other here, could probably write a book on how awesome and how much you learn from it.
As was mentioned, cups, good mask or eyepro and gloves are very much required. Also dont wear clothing you like because chances are itll be destroyed.
Highly recommended.
As was mentioned, cups, good mask or eyepro and gloves are very much required. Also dont wear clothing you like because chances are itll be destroyed.
I've found that if you wash the items within a reasonable time frame - a day or two - the marking soap from Simunitions or Force-On-Force comes out.
I've also got a couple of items that got put into my bag for a week or so and those marks tend to stay.
I work in police training and we make our guys wear their duty uniforms - so they can see first hand any limitations to movement that their uniforms impose.
Voodoo_Man
12-03-14, 09:29
I've found that if you wash the items within a reasonable time frame - a day or two - the marking soap from Simunitions or Force-On-Force comes out.
I've also got a couple of items that got put into my bag for a week or so and those marks tend to stay.
I work in police training and we make our guys wear their duty uniforms - so they can see first hand any limitations to movement that their uniforms impose.
Pistol only right?
Ive had rifle sims go through cotton close up.
Pistol only right?
Ive had rifle sims go through cotton close up.
The ATK 5.56 rounds do not penetrate clothing.
The ATK 5.56 rounds do not penetrate clothing.
5.56 UTM rounds will cut through 500D nylon with ease.
Wear your normal clothes you are training for (aka SWAT = swat gear, civ = civ clothes). As long as it isn't an up close shot on bare skin the round won't penetrate flesh. Then add a cup, neck pro, gloves and head pro (gas masks work great for no fog). The pain is there to teach you. The main issue I've seen with sims (as mentioned in the video) is people pretend concealment = cover.
Other than that sim training is amazingly good and fun.
I am at the office now and our new rounds are the ATK Force on Force. They seem to work much better than the original sims ammunition. We keep our scenarios limited to short realistic scripts that are consistent from group to group. These can degenerate into very expensive paintball games if not they are not controlled.
Pistol only right?
Ive had rifle sims go through cotton close up.
We never bought the 5.56 Simunition Rounds, we went with pistol caliber Sim uppers.
We currently use the ATK Force-On-Force bolts for their 5.56 as well as the pistol uppers.
No penetration problems.
Voodoo_Man
12-04-14, 03:42
We never bought the 5.56 Simunition Rounds, we went with pistol caliber Sim uppers.
We currently use the ATK Force-On-Force bolts for their 5.56 as well as the pistol uppers.
No penetration problems.
Yea It depends on the type of round you use. Not only have I experienced clothing penetration but others have to from different rounds and its all up close stuff. Which is fine, pain makes you smarter.
the automator
12-04-14, 13:38
We use UTM and it runs damn near 100% with little cleaning on the Glock 17Ts.
Take a well structured FoF class. There are too many people doing it now that make it just 'shoot this guy' drills, which have limited benefit. One of the biggest bonuses of training in FoF is being able to practice decision making under stress.
Look up Mindset Lab, Southnarc, or Tactical Response's The Fight class.
5.56 UTM rounds will cut through 500D nylon with ease.
Wear your normal clothes you are training for (aka SWAT = swat gear, civ = civ clothes). As long as it isn't an up close shot on bare skin the round won't penetrate flesh. Then add a cup, neck pro, gloves and head pro (gas masks work great for no fog). The pain is there to teach you. The main issue I've seen with sims (as mentioned in the video) is people pretend concealment = cover.
Other than that sim training is amazingly good and fun.
I agree 100%....However, one will get through every now and then
30173
This is the last sim round removed from my scalp....and it might have been Grizzly who did it...
I agree 100%....However, one will get through every now and then
30173
This is the last sim round removed from my scalp....and it might have been Grizzly who did it...
I don't think I put it there. If I did, in my defense you are a glutton for sim damage. I need to see if I can post pictures of a certain marine after he charged into belt fed sims. His thighs look awesome.
One of the problems with being all manly and embracing the pain and marks when doing NLTA stuff, is the fact that 1) most agencies are extremely liability conscious; 2) you are often put in a position where you are 'one injury away' from losing the program; 3) it's all fun until someone gets their eye put out or incurs other major medical expense - things change mighty fast then, leading to 4) increased instructor liability.
Someone early on mentioned they could write a book about NLTA training ammunition usage. Someone already did - Training at the Speed of Life, Ken Murray (http://www.armiger.net/) or http://www.amazon.com/Training-Speed-Life-Vol-Definitive/dp/0976199408
If I was doing NLTA training, or going to NLTA training, I'd make sure I'd read the book, the section on safety protocols alone is worth it.
hogfan1911
12-04-14, 21:06
I agree 100%....However, one will get through every now and then
30173
This is the last sim round removed from my scalp....and it might have been Grizzly who did it...
Well, it certainly wasn't me, as I've never, ever had a "green on green" before....
I don't think I put it there. If I did, in my defense you are a glutton for sim damage. I need to see if I can post pictures of a certain marine after he charged into belt fed sims. His thighs look awesome.
Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
4DAIVI PAI2K5
12-04-14, 21:20
I enjoyed it at the classes I took.
I've taken multiple contact distance sims round to the chest while wearing nothing but a t-shirt and a wicking Under Armour shirt underneath. Yeah, it hurts, but it ain't debilitating, and I just saw it as further incentive to not **** up in an evolution (this was at the aformentioned Craig Douglas's ECQC). It's on par to getting hit with an airsoft pellet running at 400 FPS, if you've ever felt that. And maybe it was just that Craig's Sims guns have seen heavy use, but they were much, much more prone to malfunctions than your real guns. At least half of the evos that went to guns had them go tits up; lot of immediate action drills were run, and that still often failed to clear the gun properly, since many of the malfunctions were double feeds.
To get the equivalent energy in airsoft as a sim (9mm, 223 or 223 utm) you are looking at needing to push a .30g bb at close to 500-550 fps. Maybe the airsoft hurts a little more because the projectile won't deform like a 9mm sim. But after some on flesh testing it took 3-4 rounds of airsoft (.25g bb at 400 fps) to hurt as much as a 223 utm round from similar distance on similar clothing.
Sims do open a new dynamic and verify/refute what you've learned. Simunition guns are prone to more malfunctions mainly due to the ammo itself. If it is warm/humid the projectile becomes soft and wont feed properly and the bore fouls quickly. There is another brand, that I can't recall right now that would seem to eliminate some of these issues.
UTMs seem to be much more reliable to me than simulation brand. That said a well cleaned gun and good mags I've put close to 1600 rounds of sims through a rifle in a night with no problem when I stopped to clean it every 300 rounds or so. Clean the bolt, ch, receiver and barrel with brake cleaner and then put a LIGHT coat of clp on the bolt and ch. Guns run like a champ then.
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