View Full Version : ATF Raids Blackwater Armory
Here's an interesting story:
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Feds Raid Blackwater Armory
Company financed automatic weapons for sheriff, then held onto them
The Associated Press
updated 9:08 p.m. ET, Thurs., June. 26, 2008
RALEIGH, N.C. - Federal agents raided Blackwater Worldwide this week as part of an investigation into whether the private security company sidestepped federal laws prohibiting the private purchase of automatic assault rifles, the company said Thursday.
Blackwater spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell said investigators with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives searched Blackwater's armory at its corporate headquarters in Moyock on Tuesday as part of the investigation. Court documents show that agents seized 22 guns as evidence from a vault reserved for county authorities.
The company signed agreements in 2005 in which Blackwater financed the purchase of 34 automatic weapons for the Camden County Sheriff's Office. Sheriff Tony Perry became the official owner of the weapons, but Blackwater was allowed to keep most of the guns at its armory.
Federal laws prohibit private parties from buying fully automatic weapons, unless they were manufactured and registered before May 1986, but allows law enforcement agencies to have them.
'Lawful and proper,' company says
One of the 2005 agreements says the weapons will be kept under "lock and key" and doesn't describe whether Blackwater would use the guns.
"We believe all aspects of our contracts with the sheriff's office are lawful and proper," Tyrrell said, adding that the ATF has known about the arrangement for a long time.
Tyrrell also said federal authorities have known about the weapons for years and that investigators got a complete look at the company's cache in 2005 after two employees were fired.
Kenneth Wayne Cashwell and William Ellsworth "Max" Grumiaux were sentenced this year on gunrunning charges, but they were spared prison time after federal prosecutors asked a judge to approve a lighter sentence because of their ongoing cooperation in a weapons investigation.
Blackwater said it fired the men after finding they had been stealing from the company. Cashwell operated Blackwater's armory in 2005, Tyrrell said.
"When these guys were fired, we invited (ATF) in to do a full search of everything we possessed," Tyrrell said. "They did a full audit, and those weapons were there at that time."
She said it is not unusual for Blackwater to store automatic weapons because the company is licensed to sell, provide training on, or even manufacture firearms.
Both ATF and U.S. Attorney George Holding declined to comment.
Little use by deputies
The 2005 agreements give the sheriff's office unlimited access to the weapons, including 17 Romanian AK-47s and 17 Bushmasters. But Perry has said his department has only used the AK-47s in shooting practice at Blackwater and that none of his 19 deputies are qualified to use them.
The 34 weapons are registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record to the Camden County sheriff. The AK-47s and five of the Bushmasters were stored and used at Blackwater while the remainder of the weapons were assigned to local deputies, Perry had said. Those numbers match with the guns listed on the search warrant receipt filed Wednesday.
The sheriff did not return calls seeking comment Thursday.
Blackwater is the largest private security firm in Iraq, and it has been under scrutiny as a federal grand jury in Washington investigates the company's involvement in the shooting deaths of 17 Iraqi civilians. The firm is also under investigation for possible weapons smuggling allegations — violations the firm strongly denies.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25394941/
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Joe Mamma
GLOCKMASTER
06-26-08, 20:59
Here's an interesting story:
* * * * * * *
Feds Raid Blackwater Armory
Company financed automatic weapons for sheriff, then held onto them
The Associated Press
updated 9:08 p.m. ET, Thurs., June. 26, 2008
RALEIGH, N.C. - Federal agents raided Blackwater Worldwide this week as part of an investigation into whether the private security company sidestepped federal laws prohibiting the private purchase of automatic assault rifles, the company said Thursday.
Blackwater spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell said investigators with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives searched Blackwater's armory at its corporate headquarters in Moyock on Tuesday as part of the investigation. Court documents show that agents seized 22 guns as evidence from a vault reserved for county authorities.
The company signed agreements in 2005 in which Blackwater financed the purchase of 34 automatic weapons for the Camden County Sheriff's Office. Sheriff Tony Perry became the official owner of the weapons, but Blackwater was allowed to keep most of the guns at its armory.
Federal laws prohibit private parties from buying fully automatic weapons, unless they were manufactured and registered before May 1986, but allows law enforcement agencies to have them.
'Lawful and proper,' company says
One of the 2005 agreements says the weapons will be kept under "lock and key" and doesn't describe whether Blackwater would use the guns.
"We believe all aspects of our contracts with the sheriff's office are lawful and proper," Tyrrell said, adding that the ATF has known about the arrangement for a long time.
Tyrrell also said federal authorities have known about the weapons for years and that investigators got a complete look at the company's cache in 2005 after two employees were fired.
Kenneth Wayne Cashwell and William Ellsworth "Max" Grumiaux were sentenced this year on gunrunning charges, but they were spared prison time after federal prosecutors asked a judge to approve a lighter sentence because of their ongoing cooperation in a weapons investigation.
Blackwater said it fired the men after finding they had been stealing from the company. Cashwell operated Blackwater's armory in 2005, Tyrrell said.
"When these guys were fired, we invited (ATF) in to do a full search of everything we possessed," Tyrrell said. "They did a full audit, and those weapons were there at that time."
She said it is not unusual for Blackwater to store automatic weapons because the company is licensed to sell, provide training on, or even manufacture firearms.
Both ATF and U.S. Attorney George Holding declined to comment.
Little use by deputies
The 2005 agreements give the sheriff's office unlimited access to the weapons, including 17 Romanian AK-47s and 17 Bushmasters. But Perry has said his department has only used the AK-47s in shooting practice at Blackwater and that none of his 19 deputies are qualified to use them.
The 34 weapons are registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record to the Camden County sheriff. The AK-47s and five of the Bushmasters were stored and used at Blackwater while the remainder of the weapons were assigned to local deputies, Perry had said. Those numbers match with the guns listed on the search warrant receipt filed Wednesday.
The sheriff did not return calls seeking comment Thursday.
Blackwater is the largest private security firm in Iraq, and it has been under scrutiny as a federal grand jury in Washington investigates the company's involvement in the shooting deaths of 17 Iraqi civilians. The firm is also under investigation for possible weapons smuggling allegations — violations the firm strongly denies.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25394941/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MSN Privacy . Legal
© 2008 MSNBC.com
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Joe Mamma
I smelled this one coming after the article that was in the Sunday newspaper. The Raleigh News and Observer has a serious hard on for BW.
Sunday's Article (http://www.newsobserver.com/917/story/1116379.html)
Blackwater needs to be left alone. They are good people doing a good job.
M1A2_Tanker
06-26-08, 22:17
Someone school this D.A.T....(Dumb Ass Tanker)
I can not figure out what the alleged charges/reason why they raided BW? :confused:
Bulldog1967
06-26-08, 22:19
Someone school this D.A.T....(Dumb Ass Tanker)
I can not figure out what the aleeged charges/reason why they raided BW? :confused:
Old Japanese Proverb: "The nail that sticks up MUST be beat down."
The accusation appears to be that the LEA never really needed or wanted the weapons, and that BW simply used them pro forma to get the guns in their armory for their (BW's) own personal/business use. Basically using the Sheriff's Office as a strawman.
Aren't companies like BW, and other private security frims that go into combat allowed to have MG's? I thought companies like their's could. In their job section, the armorer position ask for you to be qualified in working on MG's
M1A2_Tanker
06-26-08, 22:55
The accusation appears to be that the LEA never really needed or wanted the weapons, and that BW simply used them pro forma to get the guns in their armory for their (BW's) own personal/business use. Basically using the Sheriff's Office as a strawman.
Aww thank you much!:D after re-reading knowing the answer it still doesnt appear clear to me...ineedmorecoffeeineddmorecoffeeineddmorecoffee:eek:
Aren't companies like BW, and other private security frims that go into combat allowed to have MG's? I thought companies like their's could. In their job section, the armorer position ask for you to be qualified in working on MG's
No they aren't
The only time they can have MGs is in official duty under a contract with the US government and these guns are loaned out by the government.
Blackwater cannot own/possess its own MGs off duty unless it meets other SOT requirements.
No they aren't
The only time they can have MGs is in official duty under a contract with the US government and these guns are loaned out by the government.
Blackwater cannot own/possess its own MGs off duty unless it meets other SOT requirements.
No kidding, I always wondered how they got them, Gov. loaned, huh. I learn something new everyday here. Thanks:)
I was at BW a couple years ago for a look-see and was given range time with some of their toys. I was advised that they had at least one ATF agent assigned to them to keep everything Kosher.
Wouldn't be the first time ATF suddenly changed their minds on something though. :rolleyes:
Hrm. So a straw purchase of automatic weapons? Is that what we are talking about.
Cofer Black should know better :p
Feds Raid Blackwater Armory
Company financed automatic weapons for sheriff, then held onto them
The Associated Press
<snip>
She said it is not unusual for Blackwater to store automatic weapons because the company is licensed to sell, provide training on, or even manufacture firearms.
<snip>
From this it seems like BW (at least claims to have) has SOT status...
Chad
This whole deal is stemming from the allegations of 2 shitbags who were doing illegal stuff and then tried to roll it over that BW was aware in order to save their asses. The armory supervisor is a retired military CWO and I know him personally. He would not allow any illegal shit to go on. BW does in fact have some Gov't onwed weapons that are on loan to them while they conduct certain types of training. Because of the training schedule and logistics those weapons are almost always on site.
Various Gov't entities are also in B'dad as we speak doing similar shit right now. It's all part of the same shit and all related to incidents that have happened. IMO these newspapers seem to have a hard on for BW and I suspect that part of it has to do with the whole Fallujah incident.
I never saw an "assigned' ATF agent out there, but I do know that they work closely with all parties to ensure that they are in compliance.
I wouldn't put much in their investigative prowess especially after reading this;
Federal laws prohibit private parties from buying fully automatic weapons, unless they were manufactured and registered before May 1986, but allows law enforcement agencies to have them.
I think most of us understand that this is a false statement. I may be wrong but there are different regs on corporations and I believe that BW doe have SOT's.
Witch hunt, nothing more.
They won't find anything wrong but they'll do a lot of grandstanding and BW will get blasted in the media for absolutely nothing.
Bullshit Flag on the Field!
cavscout82nd
06-27-08, 09:04
the lib's have had it out for BW for awhile now. what they can't control they destroy.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-27-08, 09:13
Yep,
Blackwater has attained comic-book villain status in the eyes of the "media."
Ahh, the media. The people with nearly the lowest SATs and GREs are now those who decide what is true.:rolleyes:
Blackwater needs to be left alone.
Sorry to have to be the dissenting opinion, brothers. But, I don't see the problem in ATF investigating this. If I were an ATF SSA (heaven forbid!), I'd look into it, too. The premise of the purchase and possession by Blackwater seems thin, especially considering the sheriff's comments about not using the weapons or being qualified to use them. The first question that leaps to my mind is why are the weapons in Blackwater's possession instead of out on patrol? What good are they to the SO while they're sitting in Blackwater's armory? And the premise of buying full-auto AK's so that the local SO could be trained on the weapons they might encounter during a terrorist takeover of the swamps of Camden County...? Very, very thin.
I'm not going to say that anything is obviously improper or illegal but, the situation and circumstances appear to warrant a review. Like it or not, ATF is the agency that reviews these sorts of things.
I am all about being above board and making sure things are on the up and up. But, you have to put this into context. This whole thing stems from the actions of two idiots who as individuals were doing illegal shit, got caught and then tried to dump in all onto BW as if they were the ones. These guys are rats and they cut a deal to save their asses from Federal Buddy Love Prison. Add this in the mix with overzealous people who may want their 15 minutes or further a career and presto!
Erik Prince had a lot of money before he started BW and lord knows the headaches that he has on a daily basis. But, he is good American who saw a need for a service and as any good capitalist entrepreneur he took a risk and it paid off. Does BW have shitbirds working there? Absolutely and so does probably every P.D, S.O, federal agency, DynCorp, Triple Canopy, SOC, etc....Usually they don't last long and get banished.
Sorry to have to be the dissenting opinion, brothers. But, I don't see the problem in ATF investigating this. If I were an ATF SSA (heaven forbid!), I'd look into it, too. The premise of the purchase and possession by Blackwater seems thin, especially considering the sheriff's comments about not using the weapons or being qualified to use them. The first question that leaps to my mind is why are the weapons in Blackwater's possession instead of out on patrol? What good are they to the SO while they're sitting in Blackwater's armory? And the premise of buying full-auto AK's so that the local SO could be trained on the weapons they might encounter during a terrorist takeover of the swamps of Camden County...? Very, very thin.
I'm not going to say that anything is obviously improper or illegal but, the situation and circumstances appear to warrant a review. Like it or not, ATF is the agency that reviews these sorts of things.
The first question that leaps to my mind is why are the weapons in Blackwater's possession instead of out on patrol? What good are they to the SO while they're sitting in Blackwater's armory? And the premise of buying full-auto AK's so that the local SO could be trained on the weapons they might encounter during a terrorist takeover of the swamps of Camden County...? Very, very thin.
Why, because Police Officers are there to "Serve and Protect". Could you imagine PD's trying to convince the public that they need 240's/249's/AK's in the trunks of squad cars?
They are most likely kept at BW because they have people certified to repair/maintain/instruct them and they do not have to arrange transport of them.
BW's Armory is probably safer anyway since there are Fed/State/Local PD's training there almost every day of the week.
Once again, Witch Hunt for all the libs.
Could you imagine PD's trying to convince the public that they need 240's/249's/AK's in the trunks of squad cars?
No, I couldn't because they don't need them. That is presumably part of the reason why the arrangement is being looked into.
I ran into some Blackwater personnel in New Orleans, at least one of them had a full auto M-4 ( I saw the selector)....I didn't really understand why, Iraq I can see the need.....
You are assuming that these weapons are owned by Blackwater. There were many private contracting companies operating in N.O and these weapons could have been loaned to BW as part of the contract just like the DoS does in Iraq and other places.
And since you don't understand the need why then let's go ahead and take all the full-auto weapons from all the law enforcement agencies as well because they aren't in Iraq either and they don't need them.
I ran into some Blackwater personnel in New Orleans, at least one of them had a full auto M-4 ( I saw the selector)....I didn't really understand why, Iraq I can see the need.....
You are assuming that these weapons are owned by Blackwater. There were many private contracting companies operating in N.O and these weapons could have been loaned to BW as part of the contract just like the DoS does in Iraq and other places.
And since you don't understand the need why then let's go ahead and take all the full-auto weapons from all the law enforcement agencies as well because they aren't in Iraq either and they don't need them.
First of all I never claimed that Blackwater owned the M4 I saw, secondly security guards have no business with full auto weapons in the states. How could you twist my statement to sound like I didn't think LE needed them? You need to fully understand what you are reading first brother.
And since you don't understand the need why then let's go ahead and take all the full-auto weapons from all the law enforcement agencies as well because they aren't in Iraq either and they don't need them.
I'm not trying to start anything but I +1 that comment. If the average citizen can't be trusted with and doesn't need such things, I really don't see where LE needs them.
I'm not trying to start anything but I +1 that comment. If the average citizen can't be trusted with and doesn't need such things, I really don't see where LE needs them.
I have to agree!
Surely LE has no need for weapons 'designed to be sprayed from the hip to kill as many people in a short time as possible'
Seriously though, as a former LEO I see no need for LE to have auto weapons, you are responsible for every round you put downrange.
That being said IMO, the 86 Hughes amendment and any other anti-gun laws are a violation of the 2A and we all have the right to own an MG if we want
I have to agree!
Surely LE has no need for weapons 'designed to be sprayed from the hip to kill as many people in a short time as possible'
Seriously though, as a former LEO I see no need for LE to have auto weapons, you are responsible for every round you put downrange.
That being said IMO, the 86 Hughes amendment and any other anti-gun laws are a violation of the 2A and we all have the right to own an MG if we want
While I agree, I feel just because something is a bad idea doesn't mean we need government regulation of it. This could be said for a lot of laws.
I have to agree!
Surely LE has no need for weapons 'designed to be sprayed from the hip to kill as many people in a short time as possible'
Seriously though, as a former LEO I see no need for LE to have auto weapons, you are responsible for every round you put downrange.
That being said IMO, the 86 Hughes amendment and any other anti-gun laws are a violation of the 2A and we all have the right to own an MG if we want
I nominant Saginaw for the Supreme Court Chief Justice and US Attorney General. The man understands issues....;)
If you are a SOT, does that allow you to possess Title II weapons that are registered to a third party? IE, can you store them?
First off,
They are not "security guards". Most if not all of those that were working the Katrina deal had solid MIL background and many also had LE as well. As a matter of fact the offer that went out to people specifically mentioned min. of 4 years LE experience if I recall correctly. One of my associates was actually deputized by the U.S Marshall Service if I remember right.
Second thing. The weapons were more than likely issued to those personnel and they used what would have been in the inventory by the respective agency. They probably weren't too worried about the selector lever markings when they were trying to push people out to secure the area.
I personally happen to agree that LEO's shouldn't be given a free ticket to have the weapons that are denied to citizens in many states. If we can't be trusted then neither should they. Unless of course there are specific reasons for having said items other than "they look cool in pictures".
First of all I never claimed that Blackwater owned the M4 I saw, secondly security guards have no business with full auto weapons in the states. How could you twist my statement to sound like I didn't think LE needed them? You need to fully understand what you are reading first brother.
I ran into some Blackwater personnel in New Orleans, at least one of them had a full auto M-4 ( I saw the selector)....I didn't really understand why, Iraq I can see the need.....
Have you ever been shot at? No matter where you are or who it is doing the shooting it is usually custom to do everything in your power to save your own ass...that's what full auto is for.
I had many friends in "The Battle of New Orleans" ( :rolleyes: ), they were contracted to get there because the feds couldn't find N.O. on a map. They were there in 2-3 days of being called with a full load out. BW is like FedEx, the Govt. is the USPS- if you want shit to show up on time who do you call?
Oh and by the way- the M4's were confiscated one by one as the Feds finally got their shit together. By the end, most BW guys only had Glocks.
Have you ever been shot at? No matter where you are or who it is doing the shooting it is usually custom to do everything in your power to save your own ass...that's what full auto is for.
I had many friends in "The Battle of New Orleans" ( :rolleyes: ), they were contracted to get there because the feds couldn't find N.O. on a map. They were there in 2-3 days of being called with a full load out. BW is like FedEx, the Govt. is the USPS- if you want shit to show up on time who do you call?
Oh and by the way- the M4's were confiscated one by one as the Feds finally got their shit together. By the end, most BW guys only had Glocks.
Yes I have.
Derek_Connor
06-28-08, 13:05
Its hard to believe that, BY NOW, that BW would put themselves into a situation like this...
You'd figure with the resources they have they'd have a whole building full of people making sure things like this would be avoided in their entirety..
could be some political hocus-focus going on.
i don't know why BW would have those type of things stateside and i don't know why BW shouldn't have the proper vetting to have them since they are a contractor in a combat zone.
my guess is that someone in the federal area is trying to make a point.:cool:
Paladin4415
06-29-08, 00:28
I have to agree!
Surely LE has no need for weapons 'designed to be sprayed from the hip to kill as many people in a short time as possible'
Did you get that Bull S*** from the Brady website?
Seriously though, as a former LEO I see no need for LE to have auto weapons, you are responsible for every round you put downrange.
Full auto fire can be as controlled as any semi auto fire, if you know what you are doing.
That being said IMO, the 86 Hughes amendment and any other anti-gun laws are a violation of the 2A and we all have the right to own an MG if we want
Couldn't agree more with you on that one.
Nathan_Bell
06-29-08, 10:13
I took most of his comments as tongue in cheek as that is what the anti's always say about MG's
Did you get that Bull S*** from the Brady website?
Full auto fire can be as controlled as any semi auto fire, if you know what you are doing.
Yes, but how many LEO's really have the training to really run their pistols, let alone get the budget to train in F/A discipline?
Couldn't agree more with you on that one.
CarlosDJackal
06-29-08, 11:31
This really should not surprise anyone. The BATFE audits organizations that have dealings with firearms, Class 3 or otherwise, on a regular basis. Just ask any Gun Shop owner.
All this speculating and guesswok isn't really doing anything more than use up bandwidth. We'll just have to see what happens.
Full auto fire can be as controlled as any semi auto fire, if you know what you are doing.
It can? Thats news to me. I realize that there is SOME control with it but not to the point where it could rival a shot fired in Semi-Auto mode.
Anyone else back this up who has shot FA before?
Jay Cunningham
06-29-08, 12:21
Have you ever been shot at?
Let's please not go down that rhetorical road here - "getting shot at" does not make you right, it makes you someone who has been shot at.
Failure2Stop
06-29-08, 12:42
It can? Thats news to me. I realize that there is SOME control with it but not to the point where it could rival a shot fired in Semi-Auto mode.
Anyone else back this up who has shot FA before?
At close range FA can be a very useful and effective tool, with proper training. This means that the bullets are going where you want them to go.
The first round will go in the same place a single shot would go- what changes is what you do (or continue to do) afterward. It is really a sub-25 yard thing for anything other than suppression, and honestly, most users will be better off in semi.
There are other applications as well.
CarlosDJackal
06-29-08, 15:22
I often wonder why some agencies bother to purchase FA-capable weapons especially since they never bother to spend the money or effort to ensure that those who are issued these weapons can use then in thaat mode.
I cannot even think of many instances that a Tactical team could put such capabailities to good use. For the most part, the only reall application I can think of for FA-capability is for FPFs and "Mad Minutes" in response to being on the receiving end of an ambush.
But on the othr hand, I'd rather have that option and not need it; rather than be in a situation where it is needed but not available. JM2CW.
Alpha Sierra
06-29-08, 15:54
First off,
They are not "security guards". Most if not all of those that were working the Katrina deal had solid MIL background and many also had LE as well.
I don't give a shit who hired them to do what. They are not peace officers and they can go ESAD.
Sidewinder6
06-29-08, 16:02
Aside from some of the spinoff dicsussions here, I wonder (out loud) whether the 'Inspection' of the facilities was as much a tune up for the local Sheriff as anyone else.
I mean, what is the size of the agency, and then why would they store their weapons at the BW facility. If I understand the law correctly, leaving them there for someone to use at that facility would be a technical no no would it not?
I am thinking that the Sheriff, assumes all liability for the use of those weapons by his employees and if someone else gets control of his weapons, I smell litigation. All that remains whether it is in criminal or civil court.
There must be some FFLs here who walk this line every day who can provide additional thoughts on that. There are not many facts other than the original story presented so far.
And your point is what? They were given the weapons to perform a mission when most LE were incapable or left. So what is your beef?
I don't give a shit who hired them to do what. They are not peace officers and they can go ESAD.
Robb Jensen
06-29-08, 16:18
This thread has run it's course.
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