View Full Version : Barrier busting in the hood.
PA PATRIOT
12-12-14, 16:09
I had the opportunity to shoot a whole bunch of back stops that would be considered "Urban Cover" which is basically anything one could find to take cover behind in a major urban city. Now I always carried a extra 30rd magazine loaded with M-855 for such a instance were a hostile maybe hiding behind a cinder block wall, postal mail box, metal street light pole or a vehicle (Not the Engine) that I might need to punch through to make a hit. During the shoot I sadly found that the M-855 was sorely lacking in defeating such cover and that started me thinking for those who live in a built up major urban city just might need a caliber which penetrates better.
Now one would think why not just jump to the 7.62x51mm (.308) and call it a day? Well that kind of makes sense since all the controls are the same with the only real negatives being the additional cost to train, weight and recoil. So back to the range I returned to see how the 7.62x51 fared against the same barriers using Lake City M80 standard military ball. The M80 was impressive punching through barriers that the 5.56 only dented, But I found that the blast and recoil was a bit much on the shoulders which both have seen several repairs over the years.
So what other options are available? The 7.62x39 is available but until the magazine and bolt life issues are resolved it just cant be my go to rifle. I was looking at the 6.8, 300BLK and others but factory ammo costs a small fortune even for plain old FMJ.
I don't think there is much more out there but maybe I'M missing something? I did hear someone was making a truly beefed up 7.62x39 AR bolt with a matching barrel but I have not heard anything about that project in a year. I guess I could down load the 7.62x51 to 7.62x39 levels for reduce recoil but then I would have to play with the gun to make if function correctly. And if at all possible I hope not to carry a AK if I can help it.
Any Suggestions?
Stay with 5.56 and realize that having to shoot somebody through cover is very unlikely for a private citizen.
There are .223/5.56 rounds marketed for light barriers. Have you looked into any of them? The TBBC, RA556B, Speer Gold Dot, this Hornady stuff
http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/200-rd-case-223-hornady-barrier-penetrating-62-grain-jsp-ammo-83285
Have you looked into them? I'll bet people have tested them/you could test some of them.
I'd be interested in those results myself, I suppose.
M855 sucks for just about everything.
Barrier punching with 5.56 requires careful selection of loads.
5.56 just doesn't have extra energy or cross section to do much damage in FMJ form.
6.8SPC, 300BLK and 7.62x39 seem to do a much better job smashing things.
Check out the cmmg Mk47 for the beefed up x39 option.
Voodoo_Man
12-12-14, 20:09
I have done barrier penetration on several occasions. Depending on the barrier, 556 will work. Not 62gr green tips, they work for metal and armor, brick and stone, not so much.
M193 and the like do well in volume. Ive leved a cinderblock wall in around a mag and a half.
Have you tried with TAP or 64gr speer gold dot? They are pretty good for that.
.46caliber
12-12-14, 20:39
I did hear someone was making a truly beefed up 7.62x39 AR bolt with a matching barrel but I have not heard anything about that project in a year.
http://www.cmmginc.com/product_p/76afc41.htm
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PA PATRIOT
12-13-14, 17:25
Stay with 5.56 and realize that having to shoot somebody through cover is very unlikely for a private citizen.
There are .223/5.56 rounds marketed for light barriers. Have you looked into any of them? The TBBC, RA556B, Speer Gold Dot, this Hornady stuff
http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/200-rd-case-223-hornady-barrier-penetrating-62-grain-jsp-ammo-83285
Have you looked into them? I'll bet people have tested them/you could test some of them.
I'd be interested in those results myself, I suppose.
Just looking out my front window I see several of the mention barrier/cover items less then 50yds down range. Any SHTF action against my location the hostiles would use said cover as I know I would if on foot walking out of the city. So I wish to add this factor into my planning now before finding out later the hard way. Most specially 5.56 rounds come with a high cost which limit their use in training and if I can increase caliber a bit and gain the penetration using simple FMJ's its a more cost effective and practical choice training wise.
PA PATRIOT
12-13-14, 17:28
http://www.cmmginc.com/product_p/76afc41.htm
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I have seen this option but the one I was speaking of is a modified 7.62x39 AR barrel with a beefed up 7.62x39 AR bolt which is still a drop in kit.
The cheapest route would to select a 556 load designed for this type of thing and the guys have suggested a few great options. As for 6.8, if you have the funds to start a build or plan to just buy the upper to slap on your current lowers when need be now is the time to do so. I have seen plenty of sales on 6.8 ammo over the past month ranging from 11$-13$ a box, this is 308 territory and is significantly less then the minimum 21$ a box you would find 6.8 for just 2 years ago.
Learn to reload your own ammunition if you want 6.8 or .300. Or stay with 5.56 and learn anyway. There's really good bullet for penetration called the 70 gr TSX. Anmo isn't expensive if you buy it preloaded, but you can load it yourself cheaper. You can load 1000 of them to stash away cheaper than building a new upper and buying another set of magazines. Side benefit is your training ammo will also be cheaper.
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The cheapest route would to select a 556 load designed for this type of thing and the guys have suggested a few great options. As for 6.8, if you have the funds to start a build or plan to just buy the upper to slap on your current lowers when need be now is the time to do so. I have seen plenty of sales on 6.8 ammo over the past month ranging from 11$-13$ a box, this is 308 territory and is significantly less then the minimum 21$ a box you would find 6.8 for just 2 years ago.
This. I just got a bunch of SSA 115gr OTM for about .50 cents a round on sale. I was originally going to build an 18" 6.8 with a larger optic, but went with 16" after attending DoJ SLATT conference that featured a detailed AAR on the West Memphis incident. The Game Warden saved the day with his 5.56 AR, but based on the barriers in play I decided that my 6.8 build should be patrol compatible as well.
Most specially 5.56 rounds come with a high cost which limit their use in training and if I can increase caliber a bit and gain the penetration using simple FMJ's its a more cost effective and practical choice training wise.
Patriot,
You speak of cost which is a valid concern. My question (followed by another question) is how much would you invest in changing calibers, upper(s), possibly mags and the obtaining the new ammo? How would this cost compare to finding a somewhat suitable "specialty ammo" in your current caliber that would have a POI similar to your current caliber of choice with a FMJ loading for practice?
Keith
Patriot,
You speak of cost which is a valid concern. My question (followed by another question) is how much would you invest in changing calibers, upper(s), possibly mags and the obtaining the new ammo? How would this cost compare to finding a somewhat suitable "specialty ammo" in your current caliber that would have a POI similar to your current caliber of choice with a FMJ loading for practice?
Keith
Not to mention the 'logistics' of then stocking a sufficient quantity of the new cartridge, possibly new magazines, possibly new spare parts, etc. I mean, are you going to do a wholesale switch to a different cartridge? Because it's not like, if you were to really need/want the increased barrier penetration of it, you could swap rifles or uppers in mid stream. But you could have the better (or less bad) 5.56 barrier ammo loaded, or in a spare mag (or mags)
I would just look at getting different ammo. The .70 TSX or .75 gr stuff cost more but works well. The cost will be much cheaper than changing ammo types. Just new magazines alone would be more. Also you will still have all of your current ammo stores while you build a supply of heavier grain ammo. Then the old stuff can be used to train. Overall it would be the best choice.
M855 sucks for just about everything.
THIS! I often read posts on the forums where guys have a false sense of its capabilities. I shot some through auto glass once, and it was just as bad as anything else I tested.
We didn't have bonded options back then.
As someone who has and likes his 6.8mm I would only recommend it for the intended use if and only if you can't handle the .308. For SD if you're going to spend an equivalent amount to .308 in practice and training, you may as well get the added performance of .308. 6.8 is just not cheap for the performance.
I use my 6.8mm for hunting (specifically hogs) which I feel like it excels at, but I don't spend a whole of time practicing with it. I check my scope dial zero once a year and then whatever I use killing hogs.
IF you do go 6.8, Federal has made some nice white box gold dot rounds. 90gr pushing 2800fps out of a 16" barrel. Drop a 250lb hog like a bad habit. Not sure if production will continue or if they're a limited run though.
http://www.luckygunner.com/6-8-90-gr-bonded-sp-xm68gd-federal-20-rounds
I agree with everyone else above though, I think your best bet will be 556 with some of the better loadings....
As someone who has and likes his 6.8mm I would only recommend it for the intended use if and only if you can't handle the .308. For SD if you're going to spend an equivalent amount to .308 in practice and training, you may as well get the added performance of .308. 6.8 is just not cheap for the performance.
I use my 6.8mm for hunting (specifically hogs) which I feel like it excels at, but I don't spend a whole of time practicing with it. I check my scope dial zero once a year and then whatever I use killing hogs.
IF you do go 6.8, Federal has made some nice white box gold dot rounds. 90gr pushing 2800fps out of a 16" barrel. Drop a 250lb hog like a bad habit. Not sure if production will continue or if they're a limited run though.
http://www.luckygunner.com/6-8-90-gr-bonded-sp-xm68gd-federal-20-rounds
I agree with everyone else above though, I think your best bet will be 556 with some of the better loadings....
Except most .308 platforms are unwieldy in tight quarters when compared to 5.56/6.8/,300 BLK platforms. Perhaps a short barreled FAL PARA, but that comes with it's own set of issues. A 6.8 or .300 BLK with bonded core bullets should be a nice in-between option. They should easily outpace the terminal performance of even the best 5.56 loads through intermediate barriers.
Logistics are the primary concern for the situation...
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Except most .308 platforms are unwieldy in tight quarters when compared to 5.56/6.8/,300 BLK platforms. Perhaps a short barreled FAL PARA, but that comes with it's own set of issues. A 6.8 or .300 BLK with bonded core bullets should be a nice in-between option. They should easily outpace the terminal performance of even the best 5.56 loads through intermediate barriers.
True. Maneuverability could be an issue. Thinking a little more, if .308 is out for whatever reason, the cheap S&B 6.8 FMJs might end up having better a price/performance ratio against barriers than the premium 556 loads. 110gr doing about 2500fps at the muzzle. Although it does have all the typical shortfalls of FMJ against flesh.....
http://www.luckygunner.com/6-8-spc-110-gr-fmj-sellier-bellot-20-rounds
I used a 6.8 SPC 11.3in upper on a Pistol Lower this year for Indiana Whitetail hunting as our rules have not changed yet regarding "rifles" but the AR pistol in 6.8 and 300blk are both leagl "pistols". The 110gr Vmax did a freaking hell of a job dropping all 3 Whitetail I took this year from 50 yards to 204 yards. Its topped with a Leupold Patrol VX-R 1.25-4.
The upper is now on my SBR lower and is gonna stay there as my SBR. As long as regulations get changed for next year, its also what I'm hunting with. Damn handy short little package that still has plenty of ass to do what I need it too. Also makes a good in house gun since I have it. Picked up a bunch of Hornady 6.8 SPC 110 VMAX and I'm good to go.
We can hunt with suppressors but the added weight on the end and the fact that I wear Electronic Muffs when hunting anyways (makes it easy to hear shit sneaking thru the woods, harharhar), I doubt I'll put a AAC 51T mount on my 6.8, its wearing a BCM 762 GF Comp now.
Moose-Knuckle
12-17-14, 13:56
Double tap.
Moose-Knuckle
12-17-14, 13:57
What's that Templar use to say?
Oh yeah; "7.62x39mm turning cover into concealment since 1947 . . . "
OP, ever thought of just going with a Kalashnikov as your primary home defense/shtf rifle?
What's that Templar use to say?
Oh yeah; "7.62x39mm turning cover into concealment since 1947 . . . "
OP, ever thought of just going with a Kalashnikov as your primary home defense/shtf rifle?
He said in the OP he doesn't want to carry an AK if he can help it.
I don't blame him, I'd rather have an AR too.
Moose-Knuckle
12-17-14, 21:06
He said in the OP he doesn't want to carry an AK if he can help it.
I don't blame him, I'd rather have an AR too.
Well shit I missed that part . . .
What's that Templar use to say?
Oh yeah; "7.62x39mm turning cover into concealment since 1947 . . . "
OP, ever thought of just going with a Kalashnikov as your primary home defense/shtf rifle?I agree with x39 being good option. With strides being made in ARs chambered in 7.62x39 (CMMG...but it is CMMG), new rifles coming to US market with better ergo's than AK (Bren 805 PS1 in x39 & IWI/Galil Ace), 762x39 is looking more appealing. I have 12.5" & 11.5" SBRd AR's and a SBRd Draco, and would be happy with any one of them if SHTF... I do like idea of folding stock on Draco for certain hypothetical/perceived scenarios.
Moose-Knuckle
12-17-14, 21:16
I agree with x39 being good option. With strides being made in ARs chambered in 7.62x39 (CMMG...but it is CMMG), new rifles coming to US market with better ergo's than AK (Bren 805 PS1 in x39 & IWI/Galil Ace), 762x39 is looking more appealing. I have 12.5" & 11.5" SBRd AR's and a SBRd Draco, and would be happy with any one of them if SHTF... I do like idea of folding stock on Draco for certain hypothetical/perceived scenarios.
I have converted all my standard stock AK's to side folders, I find them advantageous for concealment and inside vehicles.
Would love to see CZ 805 Brens state side, do they have a 7.62x39 conversion? I've only seen pics online in NATO 5.56 w/STANAG mags.
I have converted all my standard stock AK's to side folders, I find them advantageous for concealment and inside vehicles.
Would love to see CZ 805 Brens state side, do they have a 7.62x39 conversion? I've only seen pics online in NATO 5.56 w/STANAG mags.I should say that I'm by no means familiar with all things Bren, but have seen a couple things that have mentioned a 7.62x39 setup. I certainly hope they will be offered to US market. Too much $ to be made not to.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/chex/cz-05-e.html. From link:
The CZ 805 assault rifle is of modular, multi-caliber design, with aluminum alloy upper receiver and polymer lower receiver / fire control unit. The magazine housing is a separate detachable unit, which can be replaced in the field in the course of caliber change. CZ 805 also features quick-change barrels, allowing to change calibers and barrel lengths according to the mission profile (in each caliber there there are short carbine barrel, standard barrel and long "marksman" or "squad automatic" barrel). The basic action uses fairy common piston-operated gas action with manual gas regulator, and a rotating bolt locking. For each proposed caliber, there is a separate bolt with appropriate dimensions.
Fire control unit includes ambidextrous safety / fire selector switch, which permits single shots, 2-round bursts and full automatic fire. Charging handle can be installed on either side of the gun, depending on user preferences.
Feed is from detachable box magazines, which are inserted into detachable magazine housing. In standard configuration, the CZ 805 will use proprietary 5.56x45 caliber 30-round magazines made of translucent polymer. Other magazine housings will allow use of STANAG or HK G36 5.56mm magazines, as well as various 7.62x39 and 6.8x43 magazines.
And in I think someone mentions it in the Bren thread here. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?162453-CZ-805-PS1-Bren-Pistol
PA PATRIOT
12-19-14, 19:40
I have considered the 7.62x39mm AR based rifle and have been doing a lot of shooting with two different rifles, a 14.5" pinned C/L pencil profile and a 16" Melonite QPQ H-Bar. Both work with modified 20rd ASC magazines 100% of the time but have issues with the 30rd versions with follower bind. Now I don't mind limiting my self with a simple to modify 20rd magazine but I'm still concerned with Bolt life, The current Bolts I'm using are the Radical Firearms Shot peened, MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected), 9310 Tool Steel Melonite QPQ bolt and a Alpha Shooting Sports 9310 shot peened MPI phosphate finish bolt. I'll be putting at least 2000rds through each and keeping a log so from time to time I will update my results.
As too shooting heavier 5.56 bullets I might be interested if someone made a 70+ grain FMJ I could hand load.
I have considered the 7.62x39mm AR based rifle and have been doing a lot of shooting with two different rifles, a 14.5" pinned C/L pencil profile and a 16" Melonite QPQ H-Bar. Both work with modified 20rd ASC magazines 100% of the time but have issues with the 30rd versions with follower bind. Now I don't mind limiting my self with a simple to modify 20rd magazine but I'm still concerned with Bolt life, The current Bolts I'm using are the Radical Firearms Shot peened, MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected), 9310 Tool Steel Melonite QPQ bolt and a Alpha Shooting Sports 9310 shot peened MPI phosphate finish bolt. I'll be putting at least 2000rds through each and keeping a log so from time to time I will update my results.
As too shooting heavier 5.56 bullets I might be interested if someone made a 70+ grain FMJ I could hand load.
You should be concerned about bolt life. Can't change the laws of physics so an 7.62x39 ar bolt will on average always have a shorter lifespan than a 5.56 bolt. High cycle fatigue is a function of average stress. By increasing the diameter of the material removed from the bolt face by nearly 2mm you're significantly driving up the average stress the bolt sees. Small changes in average stress can lead to significant reductions in component life span.
Another thought is that "bugging in", where you try to stay in your home and survive (causing the op to have to shoot through "several of the mentioned barrier/cover items less then 50yds down range") isn't the best option.
It's pretty easy to burn out someone seeking refuge in a structure, so if the S really HTF, loading your vehicle up and getting out of dodge to a safer place seems the better idea.
Therefore I'd say it's a bit unrealistic to worry too much about penetrating barriers.
Another thought is that "bugging in", where you try to stay in your home and survive (causing the op to have to shoot through "several of the mentioned barrier/cover items less then 50yds down range") isn't the best option.
It's pretty easy to burn out someone seeking refuge in a structure, so if the S really HTF, loading your vehicle up and getting out of dodge to a safer place seems the better idea.
Therefore I'd say it's a bit unrealistic to worry too much about penetrating barriers.
That totally depends on the situation and your specifics.
Loading up the BOV and hitting the road could lead to you getting stuck in traffic, broken down, roads/passages blocked, attacked, disabled in an accident/collision, or any other number of things. Meanwhile 99% of your supplies are back home, you're running out of gas, it is far too hot (or cold) outside, you have nowhere to go, and your infant/toddler (or more) is having a fit in the backseat.
Besides, if the S really HTF, to the point where you are going to be burned out of your own home, do you really think you will be guaranteed safe and easy passage/escape out of the area and to an unaffected area without the possibility of having to defend yourself/your family on the road (think of all those vehicles and other barriers), at stopping points along the way, or at your destination?
That totally depends on the situation and your specifics.
Loading up the BOV and hitting the road could lead to you getting stuck in traffic, broken down, roads/passages blocked, attacked, disabled in an accident/collision, or any other number of things. Meanwhile 99% of your supplies are back home, you're running out of gas, it is far too hot (or cold) outside, you have nowhere to go, and your infant/toddler (or more) is having a fit in the backseat.
Besides, if the S really HTF, to the point where you are going to be burned out of your own home, do you really think you will be guaranteed safe and easy passage/escape out of the area and to an unaffected area without the possibility of having to defend yourself/your family on the road (think of all those vehicles and other barriers), at stopping points along the way, or at your destination?
We could counter-argue various imaginary scenarios until the cows come home, but it's all just fantasy. There's no way of knowing what the right approach to take is, until something actually happens. And who knows what that something will be?
PA PATRIOT
12-22-14, 16:21
We could counter-argue various imaginary scenarios until the cows come home, but it's all just fantasy. There's no way of knowing what the right approach to take is, until something actually happens. And who knows what that something will be?
If you live in a major urban city were the demographics are quickly changing then that could be after a incident which incites any offended group. I do have a location to bug out to but that's if I'm able to roll before the roads are jammed. If not then I would have to be able to defend my location until I can either leave or they get tried of trying.
Would a typical group of bg's stick around after taking incoming rifle rounds?
I would reconsider if in their shoes and look for low hanging fruit elsewhere.
Would a typical group of bg's stick around after taking incoming rifle rounds?
I would reconsider if in their shoes and look for low hanging fruit elsewhere.
I think that would depend on how desperate they are. If they think you have food and they are starving, then you could be in for a fight. On the plus side, if they think you have food, they probably won't burn it down.
BuzzinSATX
12-24-14, 07:36
After reading the entire thread, with lots of good inputs back and forth, and unless I'm missing something, primary use of said rifle will be to defend home and hearth, with a concern about penetrating cover, then for me, all logical roads lead to an AK47, an AR-10, or even something like a Mossberg MVP in .308. I realize some mentioned weight and maneuverability of a .308 Win, but something like the Mossberg or Ruger SR-556 would give you serious barrier penetration over the other options mentioned in a relatively lightweight and manuverable rifle.
Something to consider with the 300BO or 7.62*39 is when you chop that barrel down, you loose some of that punch you're looking for to take down a cinderblock wall.
This thread just went full doomsday prepper retard.
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Chatterbox
12-24-14, 10:13
After reading the entire thread, with lots of good inputs back and forth, and unless I'm missing something, primary use of said rifle will be to defend home and hearth, with a concern about penetrating cover, then for me, all logical roads lead to an AK47, an AR-10, or even something like a Mossberg MVP in .308. I realize some mentioned weight and maneuverability of a .308 Win, but something like the Mossberg or Ruger SR-556 would give you serious barrier penetration over the other options mentioned in a relatively lightweight and manuverable rifle.
Something to consider with the 300BO or 7.62*39 is when you chop that barrel down, you loose some of that punch you're looking for to take down a cinderblock wall.
Another option no one mentioned was getting some bricks of "Southern Thunder" and strategically locating it on/near that cover so that a well placed 5.56 round could take out good chunks of that wall with a little help from the explosion...
Probably there was a reason for that.
BuzzinSATX
12-24-14, 12:32
Sorry, I did not mean to take this thread where it ought not have gone.
I think that would depend on how desperate they are. If they think you have food and they are starving, then you could be in for a fight. On the plus side, if they think you have food, they probably won't burn it down.
Unless they decided they can't take the food, or it's too dangerous, so they throw some firebombs your way out of spite before they totally move on. Maybe then, maybe that night, maybe the next nigth
Get a robust bonded or solid copper round, like golddot, fusion, 50 gr. bh tsx or 75gr tsx. Non bonded fmj sucks at everything other than steel helmets.
6.8 is good, as well as 308, but that's a big cost.
I'd love to see performance of a bonded 75/77gr otm.
If money was no object, have you tried the SCAR17?? That is one light 308 rifle...
If money was no object, have you tried the SCAR17?? That is one light 308 rifle...
Even if money is an object, its worth saving for.
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