View Full Version : HK VP9 Issue
I just took my brand new VP9 to the range this afternoon. Except for one issue, the pistol performed perfectly with a varied mix of FMJ and JHP, and the trigger is outstanding. The issue: with the slide locked open, firmly inserting a full magazine would cause the slide lock to release (and obviously chamber a round). Anyone else have this problem? I have a multitude of other semi-autos (Glocks, SA's, HK's, Sig's etc) and have never had this happen on any of them.
Thanks,
Pete
Are you talking about auto forwarding? If so, then yes, it has been reported by some others in other threads I believe. Was a whole thread on this issue the other week.
Will see if I can find it.
ETA:
Here is the link, Will's first post was in regards to the VP9 as well. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?161698-Auto-Forwward-Discussion
NCGREENSWAMP13
12-12-14, 18:59
I picked up a vp9 last weekend and I've put about 250 rounds through it with zero malfunctions. After reading your post I got curious and went ouside and tried to get mine to "auto foward" I guess you call it. If I really slammed the mag in it would do it occasionally. I own glocks, sigs and now a Hk. Sig is the only one I cant make auto foward. I really dont worry about it, but thats just me.
It's not an issue. Well, maybe you think it is, but most all semis do that. There was just a thread on this exact subject....
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?161698-Auto-Forwward-Discussion
gtmtnbiker98
12-12-14, 19:41
Sorry to rain on your "issue parade" but most, if not all, polymer framed pistols auto forward.
Sorry to rain on your "issue parade" but most, if not all, polymer framed pistols auto forward.
Some more than others.
Thanks everyone for the responses and links. Much appreciated.
Guns-up.50
12-12-14, 22:28
Sorry to rain on your "issue parade" but most, if not all, polymer framed pistols auto forward.
This is an over statement
Some consider this a "feature."
I like it
Me too in most cases. It certainly makes combat reloads faster.
This is an over statement
Not really. I just grabbed the polymer pistols I have closest at hand (Glock 17, 19, Walther P99AS, and Kahr PM9), and they will all do it with a good enough smack. The P99 seems most apt to do it.
It's not a "feature" or an "issue." It's just physics at work.
.
My personally owned CZ Phantom and USP9 both do it, as does my issued M&P40. It's no big deal.
I was always taught through several classes that autoforwarding IS a problem. There is concern that the magazine may not feed a round into the chamber and those much more experienced than me cited examples. I was also taught that with proper reloading technique it can be avoided. Most people can cause their polymer striker fired pistols to autoforward if they really want to but again I've been taught, and believe, that it is a bad idea. This is a "feature" of poor training and poor technique or (once the aforemetioned are disproved) a weapon system that is not functioning properly.
My M&P Pro auto forwards 99.9% of the time but I can't get any other polymer I have to do it. Maybe I don't smack it like owes me money enough.
If it does it regularly just add it to your process, but still be ready to rack the slide the few times it doesn't.
AR Newby AZ
12-13-14, 11:33
This happened when the m&p line came out. It's not a malfunction or poor design. Where else do you want the slide to go when you insert a mag?
My M&P Pro auto forwards 99.9% of the time but I can't get any other polymer I have to do it. Maybe I don't smack it like owes me money enough.
If it does it regularly just add it to your process, but still be ready to rack the slide the few times it doesn't.
Cycling the slide a few times after an unsuccessful autoforward would put loaded ammunition on the ground and cost time that is very valuable.
This happened when the m&p line came out. It's not a malfunction or poor design. Where else do you want the slide to go when you insert a mag?
The issue is that it does not always (as in every single time = always) chamber a round when it autoforwards. Clearly the slide going forward is not a problem, you would prefer that it carry a round into the chamber right?
If a pistol came out that properly stripped a round from a magazine and loaded into the chamber only 99% of the time we would bitch about it and not buy. Yet, this is more than likely a technique issue that we are unwilling to practice?
I was always taught through several classes that autoforwarding IS a problem. There is concern that the magazine may not feed a round into the chamber and those much more experienced than me cited examples. I was also taught that with proper reloading technique it can be avoided. Most people can cause their polymer striker fired pistols to autoforward if they really want to but again I've been taught, and believe, that it is a bad idea. This is a "feature" of poor training and poor technique or (once the aforemetioned are disproved) a weapon system that is not functioning properly.
There are definitely things to be aware of but like said above, it's neither a feature nor an issue. I can make all of my Glocks do it.
This happened when the m&p line came out. It's not a malfunction or poor design. Where else do you want the slide to go when you insert a mag?
When a firearm is engineered and constructed so that it "sometimes" or even "most of the time" does something unexpected, that's a defect. A firearm shouldn't offer you any surprises when it goes off. It should do exactly the same thing every single time you pull the trigger.
There are definitely things to be aware of but like said above, it's neither a feature nor an issue. I can make all of my Glocks do it.
I would agree that it is likely not an issue with the firearm. But would continue to say that it is an issue with technique.
Adrenaline_6
12-13-14, 12:31
My P30 does it every time I load the magazine with just a decent amount of pressure. I consider it a plus imho. It has never once, done it and not properly load a round from the magazine into the chamber. It also has never not done it when I have wanted it to. So the argument about it being poor technique doesn't apply as far as I am concerned. I can't speak for other makes or models about this.
If you have 10 round magazines, it will be either hard or impossible to make happen. It's just physics. More upward pressure from the magazine with more rounds in it.
Guns-up.50
12-13-14, 12:45
Not really. I just grabbed the polymer pistols I closest have at hand (Glock 17, 19, Walther P99AS, and Kahr PM9), and they will all do it with a good enough smack. The P99 seems most apt to do it.
It's not a "feature" or an "issue." It's just physics at work.
Sure with bone crushing force any gun will auto foreword. I had an M&P that was constantly doing it. I cannot get most of my glocks to do it even when I try. Maybe its the vickers s/l. I dont know. My p30 didn't do it.
The only reason I dont consider it a plus is because it screws up the order. If you sling shot you be prone to dumping rnds on the deck.
If you plan on auto forewording and it doesn't go then you have to compensate. I like smooth repeatable steps..
My P30 does it every time I load the magazine with just a decent amount of pressure. I consider it a plus imho. It has never once, done it and not properly load a round from the magazine into the chamber. It also has never not done it when I have wanted it to. So the argument about it being poor technique doesn't apply as far as I am concerned. I can't speak for other makes or models about this.
If you have 10 round magazines, it will be either hard or impossible to make happen. It's just physics. More upward pressure from the magazine with more rounds in it.
By all means, do your thing. But this is not how the pistol is designed to work and it is not how people are trained to operate a handgun. I'm glad it has always been a "plus" for you, just hope that when its a "minus" you are out enjoying the day on the range with no pressure and the sun-a-shining.
My cz autoforewarded more tban my mp. Learn to make it not happen with ur gun. Ive never used a gun i could not get to af, but its never been an issue either. Now that i know how to properly reload, it never happens unless i try.
When a firearm is engineered and constructed so that it "sometimes" or even "most of the time" does something unexpected, that's a defect. A firearm shouldn't offer you any surprises when it goes off. It should do exactly the same thing every single time you pull the trigger.
Exactly! Anyone who relies on the auto-forwarding, and thinks it's a good thing, needs to re-think the issue. It is definitely NOT a good thing IMO.
Sure with bone crushing force any gun will auto foreword. I had an M&P that was constantly doing it. I cannot get most of my glocks to do it even when I try. Maybe its the vickers s/l. I dont know. My p30 didn't do it.
None of those guns I quickly (and unscientifically) tested required "bonecrushing force". Just a sharp smack. I've seen HKs do it also.
It's irrelevant to me though, since that's not how I've been trained to reload a mag.
Adrenaline_6
12-13-14, 21:52
By all means, do your thing. But this is not how the pistol is designed to work and it is not how people are trained to operate a handgun. I'm glad it has always been a "plus" for you, just hope that when its a "minus" you are out enjoying the day on the range with no pressure and the sun-a-shining.
I totally see your stance on the matter, but like I mentioned, I haven't experienced a "minus" in over a thousand rounds. If I did, I wouldn't be so confident in the procedure either.
At this kind of failure rate, it would be no different than a rare jam, which a shooter should efficiently as possible take care of with proper training anyway.
My opinion is that auto forwarding is an unintended consequence of design. To prevent it one idea is to cut deeper the slide's notch that engages with the slide release. Also, heavier mag springs might provide additional upward force to prevent the occurrence.
Back when some folks pimped out their pistols with super big extended slide releases, they were unhappy to learn that the new parts' extra mass gave the releases enough inertia to jump up under recoil forces and lock back the slide on a loaded magazine.
If you insert a loaded mag into an AR and then hit the butt on the ground, then you will observe auto forwarding. I don't strike the ground with my AR butt, and neither do I slam mags into my pistols.
My M&P Pro auto forwards 99.9% of the time but I can't get any other polymer I have to do it. Maybe I don't smack it like owes me money enough.
Sure with bone crushing force any gun will auto foreword. I had an M&P that was constantly doing it. I cannot get most of my glocks to do it even when I try. Maybe its the vickers s/l. I dont know. My p30 didn't do it.
My M&P does the same, but my CZ P07 and P09 do not (no matter how much I try to force it to happen).
The only reason I dont consider it a plus is because it screws up the order. If you sling shot you be prone to dumping rnds on the deck.
If you plan on auto forewording and it doesn't go then you have to compensate. I like smooth repeatable steps..
Yeah, seems like it would be ideal if they all either did it, or all didn't do it...the lack of consistency is bad.
Sorry to rain on your "issue parade" but most, if not all, polymer framed pistols auto forward.
^de ja vu from other places....
OP, to be somewhat consistent with my rifle manipulations, I've adopted using my support hand thumb to hit the slide release on my pistols.
I only shoot HKs now, and all of mine will auto-forward. Other brands, as has been said, will also.
Auto-forward is definitely a surprise at first (trust me, years ago I did my fair share of just staring at my pistol when it happened), but I've kept my manipulations the same...ie I never count on auto-forward, and run my support hand along the same "route" that I would if it didn't happen.
YMMV. Enjoy the VP. I love mine.
Find a manufacturer that says their pistol was designed to work that way, and I'll entertain the idea that it's not an issue. Sadly, it's become common enough to have been given a name, which has perpetuated acceptance by those unwilling to see fault in their pistol choice. It does rear it's ugly head in polymer framed guns most often, but that doesn't mean it must be accepted by anyone using a polymer pistol. None of MY glocks do it, my M&P 9 does not do it, but my M&P 45 did until I took a file out and reshaped the slide release and corresponding notch in the slide.
It creates bad habits through uncertainty, and it will definitely reset your OODA loop whenever it does or doesn't happen, depending on your expectations. Those that see it as a feature now will look back on it one day like their haircut in a 20 year old yearbook photo, embarrassed that it was them, but recognize that it's all part of growing up.
ETA: Not that it will be fun, but call HK and tell them your issue, and I bet they acknowledge the problem and fix it for you. I'd be pretty surprised otherwise.
I just took my brand new VP9 to the range this afternoon. Except for one issue, the pistol performed perfectly with a varied mix of FMJ and JHP, and the trigger is outstanding. The issue: with the slide locked open, firmly inserting a full magazine would cause the slide lock to release (and obviously chamber a round). Anyone else have this problem? I have a multitude of other semi-autos (Glocks, SA's, HK's, Sig's etc) and have never had this happen on any of them.
Thanks,
Pete
There's a lengthy discussion on auto forwarding here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?161698-Auto-Forwward-Discussion
Find a manufacturer that says their pistol was designed to work that way, and I'll entertain the idea that it's not an issue. Sadly, it's become common enough to have been given a name, which has perpetuated acceptance by those unwilling to see fault in their pistol choice. It does rear it's ugly head in polymer framed guns most often, but that doesn't mean it must be accepted by anyone using a polymer pistol. None of MY glocks do it, my M&P 9 does not do it, but my M&P 45 did until I took a file out and reshaped the slide release and corresponding notch in the slide.
It creates bad habits through uncertainty, and it will definitely reset your OODA loop whenever it does or doesn't happen, depending on your expectations. Those that see it as a feature now will look back on it one day like their haircut in a 20 year old yearbook photo, embarrassed that it was them, but recognize that it's all part of growing up.
Luckily, I shave my head.
My M&P9 FS auto-forwards....just can't Sally the reload. The argument of auto-forwarding as being a feature or flaw is nothing new. Just like the great caliber debate, DA/SA vs SA vs Striker, etc.
As for resetting your OODA, if you don't expect it to happen, and therefore keep your MOA as if it wasn't going to happen, shouldn't make a difference.
Not like it is akin to pulling the trigger and getting s click vs a bang.
ETA: Not that it will be fun, but call HK and tell them your issue, and I bet they acknowledge the problem and fix it for you. I'd be pretty surprised otherwise.
Thanks, I plan to do just that in the morning, and will report back on what they say.
There's a lengthy discussion on auto forwarding here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?161698-Auto-Forwward-Discussion
Thanks Will, but two previous posters beat you to it. ;) Good thread though, I learned quite a bit from it.
Luckily, I shave my head. ^^^^^^^^LOL
My M&P9 FS auto-forwards....just can't Sally the reload. The argument of auto-forwarding as being a feature or flaw is nothing new. Just like the great caliber debate, DA/SA vs SA vs Striker, etc.
As for resetting your OODA, if you don't expect it to happen, and therefore keep your MOA as if it wasn't going to happen, shouldn't make a difference.
Not like it is akin to pulling the trigger and getting s click vs a bang.
Guns that autoforward, can't be made to DO it 100% of the time.
Guns that autoforward, can't be made to NOT do it 100% of the time.
That's the problem. I'll take the rest of the autoforward discussion over to the other thread as to get this one back on track to the specific issue of the OPs VP9.
Hope the OP gets his pistol sorted out, it's a problem for most.
I like it
Some of us don't.
None of my 3 1911s have ever done it, nor my 2 G17s or my G26.
My MP 9 did it a lot, so I sold it.
When a magazine is inserted with vigor, the nose of the cartridge may pivot up.
This can cause the case head to pivot downward. If the slide autoforwards at this point in time, the slide may miss the cartridge and fail to feed into the chamber. I could make my MP 9 do this about 1/20 times - same with a rental pistol.
Not my cup of tea. YMMY
john
When this happens (often, with glock) I just cancel the slide rack I was about to do and carry on...no big deal at all.
I talked to HK this morning, and as many of you have implied, they said that auto-forwarding is neither by design nor a defect, and they offer no service to "correct" it.
Thanks again to everyone for your help.
Pete
I like it
I agree, but only if it was consistent. My M&P's are not consistent when auto-forwarding and it can get annoying.
I agree, but only if it was consistent. My M&P's are not consistent when auto-forwarding and it can get annoying.
The only time where mine were not consistent was depending on how hard I drove up the mag. I do see how if it was not consistent, it might be a PITA training issue.
Guns that autoforward, can't be made to DO it 100% of the time.
That is not true for all guns. Mostly it is just matter of training (as with most issues). It is usually easier for left handed (I can and do make 1911-type pistol autoforward consistently), but with modern HKs (I mean P-series, HK45-series and VP-series) or Walthers (P99, PPQ) or any pistol with ambi slide catch it is not a problem. Recipe on consistent auto forward is to rest trigger finger on top of slide catch during magazine change (obviously right handed need to have pistol with slide catch on right side of pistol, not only on left side). There is no need to press it down, just rest trigger finger on top of it. I use my middle finger to actuate mag catch (both paddle type and button type) and this actually forces my trigger finger to move up to this position.
Guns that autoforward, can't be made to DO it 100% of the time.
Guns that autoforward, can't be made to NOT do it 100% of the time.
That's the problem. I'll take the rest of the autoforward discussion over to the other thread as to get this one back on track to the specific issue of the OPs VP9.
Hope the OP gets his pistol sorted out, it's a problem for most.
Sounds good man. I get where you're coming from, just slightly different viewpoints.
Cylinder Head
12-26-14, 04:58
All 3 of my HK pistols consistently auto-forward. Consistently. Through many courses since I picked up my first HK in 2008, it has never been an issue for me.
I was shooting my V9 and P30L. If I slam my mags, the slide auto forwards. If I just push them in, no auto forward.
I am a big P30 fan, didn't think the striker would win my love so easily.
I wonder how many auto-forward issues are caused by user's grip during the seating of the mag? In other words, how many users are inadvertently engaging the slide release when seating the mag making them think that the gun is doing it on its own?
I wonder how many auto-forward issues are caused by user's grip during the seating of the mag? In other words, how many users are inadvertently engaging the slide release when seating the mag making them think that the gun is doing it on its own?
Probably not many at all. It's super easy to do just sharply inserting a mag.
I wonder how many auto-forward issues are caused by user's grip during the seating of the mag? In other words, how many users are inadvertently engaging the slide release when seating the mag making them think that the gun is doing it on its own?
I caught myself doing that as I was learning my P30. I also had a tendency to "sit" on the slide release, preventing it from locking open on the last round. I was using my old tried and true Sig grip, and had to teach myself a slightly different grip mechanic with that longer slide release lever. Now I'm good.
Guns that autoforward, can't be made to DO it 100% of the time.
Guns that autoforward, can't be made to NOT do it 100% of the time.
That's the problem. I'll take the rest of the autoforward discussion over to the other thread as to get this one back on track to the specific issue of the OPs VP9.
Hope the OP gets his pistol sorted out, it's a problem for most.
After magpul made their handgun video; they explained that if you insert the mag in with a little force and put forward pressure while inserting the magazine; i tried it with my m&p about 30 or 40 times and it worked every single time. If you insert it with direct 90 degree pressure, it will sometimes fail or you will need to use a lot more force.
After magpul made their handgun video; they explained that if you insert the mag in with a little force and put forward pressure while inserting the magazine; i tried it with my m&p about 30 or 40 times and it worked every single time. If you insert it with direct 90 degree pressure, it will sometimes fail or you will need to use a lot more force.
That's like saying 80% of the time is worked 100% of the time.
My old USP45 did this all the time. My M&P does it often, but not all the time. I can get my Gen4 Glock 9mms to do it if I try.
I use my support hand thumb to hit the slide stop on a reload, so EVEN IF the gun auto-forwards I'm still hitting the slide stop lever in the event it decides to stay open.
That's like saying 80% of the time is worked 100% of the time.
Sexy Panther....
http://i.lvme.me/nzu2igx.jpg
My P30 does this also, didn't bother me, but glad to see it's common.
Coal Dragger
12-27-14, 02:38
I was able to make my HK45 do this a few times, but it required slamming the magazine in way way harder than I ever normally do.
I cannot remember if this has been posted in this thread, but here goes . . .
1. Take a polymer frame gun with the slide locked back and an empty magwell and hold it in your strong hand.
2. Next, take a magazine with a dummy round in it and put it into the magazine well so that it extends only an inch or so in.
3. With the mag still in the magwell, twist the magazine to the slide.
4. Now, slam the mag into the magazine well.
You will find that in may cases the slide will slam forward.
If I remember correctly, Ken Hackathorn explained this in one of his classes that I took with him. Sometimes a little lateral pressure causes this in some polymer framed guns.
If it happens consider it a quicker reload, but don't rely on or expect it to happen every time.
That's like saying 80% of the time is worked 100% of the time.
No that's EXACTLY saying that it worked 100% of the times i tried it, doing it with recommended instructions.
No that's EXACTLY saying that it worked 100% of the times i tried it, doing it with recommended instructions.
You wrote: "i tried it with my m&p about 30 or 40 times and it worked every single time."
It was confusing as you worded it. I think I see what you mean now. What recommended instructions were you using to cause the auto forward 100% of the time out of 30-40 repeated cycles?
You wrote: "i tried it with my m&p about 30 or 40 times and it worked every single time."
It was confusing as you worded it. I think I see what you mean now. What recommended instructions were you using to cause the auto forward 100% of the time out of 30-40 repeated cycles?
"After magpul made their handgun video; they explained that if you insert the mag in with a little force and put forward pressure while inserting the magazine; i tried it with my m&p about 30 or 40 times and it worked every single time."
magpul's instructions where you put forward pressure while inserting mag.
Adrenaline_6
12-27-14, 11:11
In my P30S , it has nothing to do with lateral pressure or what angle you put the magazine in. It might be that way for Glocks or another make...can't comment on that. Like I posted in a similar thread, I can put a loaded magazine all the way into the magwell until right before the magazine locks in. If I slap it in with the palm of my support hand quickly (briskly but in no way am I "beast slamming" it in), my P30S will auto forward 100% of the time and feed a round into the chamber 100% of the time. I've tried it at least 30 times in a row to test this at home and who knows how many times during normal range use.
Will it not auto forward if I put it in nice and slow? Yes. I can push on the magazine gently with 2 fingers and it locks perfectly into the magwell with HK precision.
I will cross post this finding from the other Auto Forwarding thread....
Interesting observation today while playing around with my new VP9....
I was reading another thread about auto forwarding specifically on VP9 pistols. I loaded a mag and tried a few reloads. After the first insertion, my VP9 would auto forward. I am assuming that it would not do it on the first attempt but would on about the second or third because the slide catch was slowly disengaging. So I can only assume at this point that my pistol should not auto forward for me upon proper insertion of the mag the first attempt. If I hold the pistol and strike the mag well several times, the slide will eventually release.
OK enough blabbing. After examining the cases that were loaded when auto forwarding and while being properly inserted, I found this.....
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7475/16121207721_d458fdff79_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qyzppg)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/qyzppg) by corycop25 (https://www.flickr.com/people/101418915@N07/), on Flickr
The case on the left was seated and I activated the slide release. The case on the right was auto forwarded three times......
SO there is something hinkey going on inside the gun during the auto forward process....
I purposely used my 9MM carry ammo, 147 gr Winchester Ranger Bonded.
Coal Dragger
12-27-14, 20:32
Your photo is not in very good so it's hard to tell what you're talking about.
I wouldn't worry too much about scrapes on the bullet or brass from feeding. It's really not a big deal.
Your photo is not in very good so it's hard to tell what you're talking about.
I wouldn't worry too much about scrapes on the bullet or brass from feeding. It's really not a big deal.
I'm not worried about scrapes either. Look at the differences in marks just above the rim.....
Coal Dragger
12-27-14, 22:29
I see them, but to be honest still wouldn't worry too much about them. Unless you're seeing major deformation or denting of the case that could lead to malfunction. The cartridge you subjected the auto forwarding to 3 times of course shows more abrasion marks, but none likely to cause issues.
I suppose you could check the inside of the pistol for brass shavings to see where the rough spot is.
decodeddiesel
12-28-14, 22:50
It would probably be worth while to measure the difference in cartridge OAL with a set of calipers after the auto-forwarding. That would be the real way to know if there's some problem.
Coal Dragger
12-29-14, 00:28
Not a bad idea. Compare bullet set back, if any, to rounds chambered normally as a control, vs those fed when the slide auto forwards. Compare bother to COAL for an unchambered round.
This is also potentially useful to measure a round over multiple chamberings as you might subject a single round to with a lot of administrative handling of the pistol; where the same round is always the one fed from the magazine.
dwhitehorne
12-29-14, 06:45
I don't understand this auto forward issue. "Something hinkey" is not going on you just aren't suppose to smash the bottom of the magazine numerous times to try and unseat the slide stop. You see this auto forward in most polymer pistols because of the design. You don't see this in 1911's as much because of the way the 7 round magazine seats in the front of the magwell. Smash the bottom of a magazine on an AR with an open bolt and see what happens. I don't see the marks as an issue since under normal shooting you wouldn't hit the magazine multiple times to send the slide forward. Stop hitting the magazine on a loaded gun and go shooting instead. :)
As for the OAL of the round on admin reloads. We teach at work never to rechamber the same round, but rotate it down into the magazine. I see it mostly as a serious issue with AR's getting admin loaded more often than the service pistol. David
My point wasn't to show bullet set back it was to show that there IS DEFINITELY a difference between a proper reload using the slide stop and an auto forward. I am not an engineer or an HK armorer so I am only pointing out an observation. It seems that some think that this auto forward thing is a non issue but I'm telling you that it's not something to rely on when bullets are coming the other way.
Adrenaline_6
12-29-14, 14:25
What is the problem? I don't get it. If it auto forwards and loads a round into the chamber and that round goes bang when the shooter pulls the trigger it is an absolute non issue until that shooter experiences a time when it doesn't.
All guns CAN auto forward. Some will do it more than others. Just saw a customer auto forward a 10mm Colt 1911. :fie:
Magazine insertion is a finesse drill (not a hammer drill).
The sky is blue and water is wet. Nothing new here.
C4
What is the problem? I don't get it. If it auto forwards and loads a round into the chamber and that round goes bang when the shooter pulls the trigger it is an absolute non issue until that shooter experiences a time when it doesn't.
The problem is that it is NEVER a 100% deal. Some guns will chamber a FMJ, but not a HP and vice versa. So people should NOT view it as a reliable way to chamber a round.
C4
Adrenaline_6
12-29-14, 16:14
The problem is that it is NEVER a 100% deal. Some guns will chamber a FMJ, but not a HP and vice versa. So people should NOT view it as a reliable way to chamber a round.
C4
I totally understand this when you mention "some" guns....but isn't it a non issue for a particular shooter if the gun they are
using has always chambered a round no matter what type has been used?
Like I mentioned before, if I ever ran into a single situation where my P30 doesn't chamber a round properly, I will then consider it an issue. So far, none during range time and none during a repeated test at home with HP ammo until my fingers got tired.
I ran about 150 rounds of 115 gr PMC through the VP9 today. I did about 6 reloads, 3 of which were full mags. I had ZERO auto forwards. I didn't do anything any differently then when I run my Glocks.
Spahr0311B
12-30-14, 02:49
When you insert a forward angled magazine into a forward angled magazine well with force, that force carries over into moving the whole frame forward. The slide is pinning the slide stop/release with the friction provided by the recoil spring. If the force you use to insert the magazine has enough forward momentum to reduce/release the friction of the recoil spring momentarily, the slide stop/release will snap down and the slide will "auto forward."
No physics books were consulted in the creation of this post, or for many years before, but it makes sense to me.
I have to admit it surprises me Cory didn't get any autoforwards, if I ease mine in I can do it. But with any force at all, it rocks on. I have to think my technique is not that different from Cory. But I still have no issue. Because you can feel and know if it does it or not. It's not ideal. But I never carry a spare mag, so in a HD, SD situation, I get them with the first 15 or I might lose.
I totally understand this when you mention "some" guns....but isn't it a non issue for a particular shooter if the gun they are
using has always chambered a round no matter what type has been used?
Like I mentioned before, if I ever ran into a single situation where my P30 doesn't chamber a round properly, I will then consider it an issue. So far, none during range time and none during a repeated test at home with HP ammo until my fingers got tired.
People that INTENTIONALLY try and get their gun to auto forward might as well hang a big sign around their neck that says; I do not know how to do a proper mag change.
C4
People that INTENTIONALLY try and get their gun to auto forward might as well hang a big sign around their neck that says; I do not know how to do a proper mag change.
C4
Grant, I dont understand this? If the gun does it every time, how can that be a user issue and why would you not want it to do it?
I don't care either way, because I run 1911's a lot and they don't Auto forward.
PB
All guns CAN auto forward. Some will do it more than others. Just saw a customer auto forward a 10mm Colt 1911. :fie:
Magazine insertion is a finesse drill (not a hammer drill).
The sky is blue and water is wet. Nothing new here.
C4
And right there, folks is the answer...Don't want the gun to auto forward? then don't slam the mags into it like a orangutan..Really, it's that simple...I've never understood how some people think that auto forwarding is a viable way of doing a mag change..
Grant, I dont understand this? If the gun does it every time, how can that be a user issue and why would you not want it to do it?
I don't care either way, because I run 1911's a lot and they don't Auto forward.
PB
I remember reading something along these lines, I think over at the pistol training site.. I think it was Todd Green who mentioned that during a class he had, a student was using auto-forwarding, and at one point when the slide didn't go forward, instead of pulling down on the slide release, he reverted to slamming the bottom of the mag several times...you have to ask yourself what would've happened if this was for real? I mean, I know a guy who carrys a 1911 with a loaded mag, and the chamber empty.. his reasoning is, he'll always have enough time to rack the slide.. I've got a idea using a timer, to prove to him how wrong he is.. I'd like to get this across to him before he has to test his theory for real.......
IMO auto forwarding is a gimmick.. nothing more. Sure, you may be able to do 500 times in a row, But what you never for sure is, when the malfunction from doing it is going to show up. And it will. It's soo much simpler to insert a mag with a little finesse, and at the same time with your thumb, pull the slide release down, this works 99.9% of the time...
And right there, folks is the answer...Don't want the gun to auto forward? then don't slam the mags into it like a orangutan..Really, it's that simple...I've never understood how some people think that auto forwarding is a viable way of doing a mag change..
Thats bullshit, under stress you have to worry about easing the mag in? Some auto forward very easily. Which it doesn't bother me and I'm not about to to play gentle Ben to avoid a benefit.
The sky is Blue and some people are stupid. Nothing new here.
PB
Thats bullshit, under stress you have to worry about easing the mag in? Some auto forward very easily. Which it doesn't bother me and I'm not about to to play gentle Ben to avoid a benefit.
The sky is Blue and some people are stupid. Nothing new here.
PB
Did I say anything about easing the mag in?? I don't think so..You can get a mag into a pistol quickly without resorting to ramming it in like a orangutan...
Its official, people will always find something to complain about.
Its official, people will always find something to complain about.
Isn't that why the unofficial nickname for the VP9 is the OCD9???
Adrenaline_6
12-30-14, 18:18
For the record, again, I don't need to slam my magazine in for it to auto forward. I've mentioned this more than once and I guess due to human laziness or the all too common unwillingness to acknowledge a fact that doesn't support their point of view so just simply ignore it option is chosen.
Just look at statistically. If you know your gun and know that if and when it auto forwards it has loaded and fired a round every time (not most....every), and can easily make the gun auto froward with no beast slamming of the magazine. Why would someone choose to not trust that very fact and rack the slide after an AF, wasting valuable time and a perfectly good round in the process because it might not fire due to an improperly loaded round which percentage wise is almost non existent?
That reasoning has zero logic behind it and bet-making wise is plain stupid. Essentially you would be giving up any advantage, guaranteed, you had over an opponent, real or fake, because of a very, very low chance that you might lose the advantage over that opponent. I guess if you want to put all your money on the green zero, its your money.
For the record, again, I don't need to slam my magazine in for it to auto forward. I've mentioned this more than once and I guess due to human laziness or the all too common unwillingness to acknowledge a fact that doesn't support their point of view so just simply ignore it option is chosen.
Just look at statistically. If you know your gun and know that if and when it auto forwards it has loaded and fired a round every time (not most....every), and can easily make the gun auto froward with no beast slamming of the magazine. Why would someone choose to not trust that very fact and rack the slide after an AF, wasting valuable time and a perfectly good round in the process because it might not fire due to an improperly loaded round which percentage wise is almost non existent?
That reasoning has zero logic behind it and bet-making wise is plain stupid. Essentially you would be giving up any advantage, guaranteed, you had over an opponent, real or fake, because of a very, very low chance that you might lose the advantage over that opponent. I guess if you want to put all your money on the green zero, its your money.
I don't slam my mags in either, I have yet to get my VP9 to auto-forward.. In your post above, why one wouldn't trust that the gun has fed a round after auto forwarding, considering you've done it in the past successfully with no problems.. I have to ask, have you tried putting some stress on yourself.. say with a timer? Any malfunctions under stress? if so what did you do to correct it. If you haven't done this, why not try it and see what happens.. I mean, I don't know of any SME's here, that teach auto-forwarding in their classes.. I'd guess there's a reason why.. Myself, I really don't care either way, and I'll continue to use the methods I was taught. It seems as if there's two schools of thought here, those who believe that auto forwarding is a viable reloading method, and those who don't..
Adrenaline_6
12-30-14, 19:02
I don't slam my mags in either, I have yet to get my VP9 to auto-forward.. In your post above, why one wouldn't trust that the gun has fed a round after auto forwarding, considering you've done it in the past successfully with no problems.. I have to ask, have you tried putting some stress on yourself.. say with a timer? Any malfunctions under stress? if so what did you do to correct it. If you haven't done this, why not try it and see what happens.. I mean, I don't know of any SME's here, that teach auto-forwarding in their classes.. I'd guess there's a reason why.. Myself, I really don't care either way, and I'll continue to use the methods I was taught. It seems as if there's two schools of thought here, those who believe that auto forwarding is a viable reloading method, and those who don't..
That's where this thread has gone awry. It started out as is AF an issue, not is AF a viable reloading method. I said it isn't an issue because it works just fine after it does it.
Then someone mentions it is an issue because it could improperly load a round in a chamber in some guns and that could be a problem in a situation and if you can't get it to do it all the time then it shouldn't be used.
I mentioned that mine loads a round every time no matter what kind of round and if I wanted to I can get it to AF every time without really slamming it in.
People mention you shouldn't slam the magazine o begin with, yada, yada. yada. You know the rest.
Grant, I dont understand this? If the gun does it every time, how can that be a user issue and why would you not want it to do it?
I don't care either way, because I run 1911's a lot and they don't Auto forward.
PB
Improper amounts of force being applied OR the palm of the hand hitting the back of the frame (both of which are incorrect).
If you have a gun that more easily Auto Forwards, there is an easy fix. Bring the gun to the magazine. This removes all the inertia and kills AFing instantly.
C4
Thats bullshit, under stress you have to worry about easing the mag in? Some auto forward very easily. Which it doesn't bother me and I'm not about to to play gentle Ben to avoid a benefit.
The sky is Blue and some people are stupid. Nothing new here.
PB
No one said anything about easing a mag in.
C4
Fair enough, one thing for sure, it's not worth arguing about. I'm fine with mine doing it, others are not. Everybody is good.
Fair enough, one thing for sure, it's not worth arguing about. I'm fine with mine doing it, others are not. Everybody is good.
Like everything else in life, there are right ways and wrong ways to do things. No respectable (professional) firearms instructor I know teaches student to auto forward OR that it is ok to do. I think this should be considered a clue.
C4
Devildawg2531
12-31-14, 10:56
Like everything else in life, there are right ways and wrong ways to do things. No respectable (professional) firearms instructor I know teaches student to auto forward OR that it is ok to do. I think this should be considered a clue.
C4
During IDPA some of my Glocks will auto forward. My gen 2 and gen 3 auto forward much more than my gen 4. It's never caused an issue during IDPA reloads as its really easy to recognize if the slide went forward or not. I can purposely with 100% consistency cause an auto forward in any of my Glocks and can purposely NOT cause an auto forward 100% of the time - it's all mag insertion force dependent. My understanding is that auto forwarding is "bad" as a round may not be removed from the mag - but I have never had a round not cycle correctly during an auto forward on my Glocks. Is there some other reason auto forwarding is "bad". Anybody actually seen a malf due to auto forwarding? Or other brands more prone to an auto forwarding induced malfunction.
Thanks
Eurodriver
12-31-14, 11:54
This is the weirdest thread to date on M4C, for me.
I have so many freaking rounds through so many freaking handguns and I have never in my life even heard of auto-forwarding let alone had it happen to me.
During IDPA some of my Glocks will auto forward. My gen 2 and gen 3 auto forward much more than my gen 4. It's never caused an issue during IDPA reloads as its really easy to recognize if the slide went forward or not. I can purposely with 100% consistency cause an auto forward in any of my Glocks and can purposely NOT cause an auto forward 100% of the time - it's all mag insertion force dependent. My understanding is that auto forwarding is "bad" as a round may not be removed from the mag - but I have never had a round not cycle correctly during an auto forward on my Glocks. Is there some other reason auto forwarding is "bad". Anybody actually seen a malf due to auto forwarding? Or other brands more prone to an auto forwarding induced malfunction.
Thanks
Yes, I have witnessed many malfunctions on the range with it. One of the main issues is that is that people become dependent on it (train to it if you will). Then, the one time that the gun does not do it, they are confused as to what to do (as they assumed the weapon had chambered a round and on target with the slide still locked to the rear). I have witnessed this as well.
C4
This is the weirdest thread to date on M4C, for me.
I have so many freaking rounds through so many freaking handguns and I have never in my life even heard of auto-forwarding let alone had it happen to me.
Coming from the 1911 world, ramming a mag into a 1911 is a huge error in judgement. So I have never auto forwarded a gun (unintentionally). I am thankful to the instructors that taught me proper mag changes from day one.
C4
Devildawg2531
12-31-14, 12:46
This is the weirdest thread to date on M4C, for me.
I have so many freaking rounds through so many freaking handguns and I have never in my life even heard of auto-forwarding let alone had it happen to me.
It is an interesting topic. Question have you ever ran timed drills for tactical reloads or IDPA or handgun competitions? I find speed of reload turns into increase auto forwarding for me - never happens at the range unless I want to make it AF.
Devildawg2531
12-31-14, 12:48
Coming from the 1911 world, ramming a mag into a 1911 is a huge error in judgement. So I have never auto forwarded a gun (unintentionally). I am thankful to the instructors that taught me proper mag changes from day one.
C4
Thanks Grant. I have very limited experience with 1911's - what is the risk or error in judgement with an AF in a 1911? appreciate the knowledge shared
Eurodriver
12-31-14, 12:56
A 1911 won't auto forward (well, shouldn't) but if you slam the magazine in too hard you run the risk of overinsertion and potentially breaking your ejector.
A 1911 won't auto forward (well, shouldn't) but if you slam the magazine in too hard you run the risk of overinsertion and potentially breaking your ejector.
I've never heard it to be a bad thing, but I've never heard it discussed before so maybe that's why. I like when they do it, it's one less thing for me to have to worry about doing myself (of course if it actually harms the weapon or mag, it's not really worth it). My M&P does it, and my CRG will but only with a 10 round mag - I figured the leverage had something to do with the angle at which I put it in.
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I've never heard it to be a bad thing, but I've never heard it discussed before so maybe that's why. I like when they do it, it's one less thing for me to have to worry about doing myself (of course if it actually harms the weapon or mag, it's not really worth it). My M&P does it, and my CRG will but only with a 10 round mag - I figured the leverage had something to do with the angle at which I put it in. I've never had it happen on a Glock though.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
wildcard600
12-31-14, 13:32
slamming mags into weapons does not make sense to me either. if it requires that much force to seat the magazine, something is wrong with your gun.
Adrenaline_6
12-31-14, 17:29
Here's the thing. You have to really think about what is being said here and look at it objectively and logically.
If someone's gun AF easily and trains to AF their pistol on reloads, it technically will be and should be a malfunction in their mind. A malfunction is taken care of by training for it. If trained for it, it will be taken care of correctly and efficiently
All this talk about seeing a person on the range bang on the bottom of their magazine or fail to release the slide and aim after the pistol didn't AF, would most likely treat any other malfunction with similar inefficiency. To say AF is bad practice after seeing this happen is IMHO incorrect, and t should be blamed on the shooter not being efficient with the use of their weapon.
You are in effect blaming a lack of training on a normal gun function.
Maybe in the 1911 world, it is bad practice due to possible malfunction. I for one haven't had one....ever, even after doing it over and over with the same exact HP round trying to do so.
HK specifically mentions AF in their manual and the only warning that applies to it is in that in this situation an AD could happen due to improper trigger control. They don't mention that it is not supposed to happen or that it could cause a round to feed improperly. If it was an issue we would have heard more about it and it would be a thread that would be easily found on the Hk forums. I looked, it doesn't exist. You know why? Because it doesn't exist.
Again, in the 1911 world, this might be different. I can't speak for that platform.
This non issue is being way overblown.
I thought HKs were perfect weapons. "HK Perfection" ... smirk.
I thought HKs were perfect weapons. "HK Perfection" ... smirk.
I think you're confusing that with Glock....smirk
At some point one of HK big customers required they USPs not to AF. HK solved this by undercutting end of slide stop slot on slide and making engagement surface of slide stop also angled (like this: // ). I believe USPs still use same, angled slide stop catch, even when slot is cut straight. So AF can be prevented at cost of slightly higher force needed to operate slide stop lever to disengage it. Apparently HK (and bunch of other manufacturers) decided this is not an issue that needs any attention, unless someone (big enough) specifically ask for solution against it. I call it a hint.
I use AF in every handgun I happen to shoot (even 1911), but my AF is "assisted" version with my trigger finger providing small amount on downward pressure while seating of mag (I'm left handed). That is why it works in 1911 for me. In case AF fails to happen (so far it happens to me only on Glock), I slingshot slide. Trained for it, works for me.
Eurodriver
01-01-15, 05:32
I'll be damned. Last night I grabbed a Gen4 G19 and slammed the mag home as hard as I could and the slide went forward chambering a round.
I can't ever imagine why I would slide a magazine in that hard though. It didn't feel right.
I'll be damned. Last night I grabbed a Gen4 G19 and slammed the mag home as hard as I could and the slide went forward chambering a round.
I can't ever imagine why I would slide a magazine in that hard though. It didn't feel right.
And many guns don't need to be slammed hard at all to AF. Some more sensitive to it than others, so it would make sense that although one should not intentionally cause it, or depend on it, one should be aware of it and prepared to quickly adjust to it when/if it happens. As Law of Murphy dictates, may happen at the worst possible time and under pressure, etc; the mag insert (for what ever reason) aggressive enough, off angle, etc to cause the AF. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have also had a mag drop out of the gun because I didn't fully seat in IDPA matches or courses, and do tend to give mags an aggressive insert, not always perfect while moving, etc.
Of the two options, I'd take an AF due to overly aggressive mag insertion over having the mag land in the dirt at my feet due to not fully seating the mag, both of which I have experienced, and I only had to experience the latter a few times to make sure that didn't happen again.
Obviously, in a perfect world, mag insert is smooth and precise and neither happens, and that's the goal and more training = no AF and properly seated mags.
At some point one of HK big customers required they USPs not to AF. HK solved this by undercutting end of slide stop slot on slide and making engagement surface of slide stop also angled (like this: // ). I believe USPs still use same, angled slide stop catch, even when slot is cut straight. So AF can be prevented at cost of slightly higher force needed to operate slide stop lever to disengage it. Apparently HK (and bunch of other manufacturers) decided this is not an issue that needs any attention, unless someone (big enough) specifically ask for solution against it. I call it a hint.
I use AF in every handgun I happen to shoot (even 1911), but my AF is "assisted" version with my trigger finger providing small amount on downward pressure while seating of mag (I'm left handed). That is why it works in 1911 for me. In case AF fails to happen (so far it happens to me only on Glock), I slingshot slide. Trained for it, works for me.
That's interesting. My HK45C will not AF. I was banging mags in it and no AF. Interesting, they could make them not, yet they do. A light tap sends my slide on VP9.
And many guns don't need to be slammed hard at all to AF. Some more sensitive to it than others, so it would make sense that although one should not intentionally cause it, or depend on it, one should be aware of it and prepared to quickly adjust to it when/if it happens. As Law of Murphy dictates, may happen at the worst possible time and under pressure, etc; the mag insert (for what ever reason) aggressive enough, off angle, etc to cause the AF. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have also had a mag drop out of the gun because I didn't fully seat in IDPA matches or courses, and do tend to give mags an aggressive insert, not always perfect while moving, etc.
Of the two options, I'd take an AF due to overly aggressive mag insertion over having the mag land in the dirt at my feet due to not fully seating the mag, both of which I have experienced, and I only had to experience the latter a few times to make sure that didn't happen again.
Obviously, in a perfect world, mag insert is smooth and precise and neither happens, and that's the goal and more training = no AF and properly seated mags.
Great point, makes a lot of sense.
That's interesting. My HK45C will not AF. I was banging mags in it and no AF. Interesting, they could make them not, yet they do. A light tap sends my slide on VP9.
That one is easy. HK45C recoil spring is much stronger than VP9 one, so it needs much more force to make slide move in relation to frame on mag insertion. I do not have any problems with my HK45C to make it AF, thanks to my trigger finger placement during mag change.
Auto forward to happen needs two things. One is force that pushes slide catch down. In most modern polymer pistols, there is spring that do that. Guns that do not have this spring will not AF until there is other force applied to catch. That is why normally 1911 does not AF (unless you apply some pressure on slide catch during mag insertion). Second thing is force, applied to frame, that will make gun "jump" forward. In this case inertia of slide, that makes it "want" to stay in place. Result is that in relation to frame, slide moves back, slide catch slips down as there is no force from slide keeping it in place and then when slide finally "catch up" with frame movement, it goes forward all the way. If recoil spring is stronger, then more force is needed either to hit frame or to push slide catch down.
Here's the thing. You have to really think about what is being said here and look at it objectively and logically.
If someone's gun AF easily and trains to AF their pistol on reloads, it technically will be and should be a malfunction in their mind. A malfunction is taken care of by training for it. If trained for it, it will be taken care of correctly and efficiently
All this talk about seeing a person on the range bang on the bottom of their magazine or fail to release the slide and aim after the pistol didn't AF, would most likely treat any other malfunction with similar inefficiency. To say AF is bad practice after seeing this happen is IMHO incorrect, and t should be blamed on the shooter not being efficient with the use of their weapon.
You are in effect blaming a lack of training on a normal gun function.
Maybe in the 1911 world, it is bad practice due to possible malfunction. I for one haven't had one....ever, even after doing it over and over with the same exact HP round trying to do so.
HK specifically mentions AF in their manual and the only warning that applies to it is in that in this situation an AD could happen due to improper trigger control. They don't mention that it is not supposed to happen or that it could cause a round to feed improperly. If it was an issue we would have heard more about it and it would be a thread that would be easily found on the Hk forums. I looked, it doesn't exist. You know why? Because it doesn't exist.
Again, in the 1911 world, this might be different. I can't speak for that platform.
This non issue is being way overblown.
Its only an non-issue if everything goes perfectly right EVERY SINGLE TIME. While you may be getting away with it on your particular gun, if you move onto another platform, you might get malfunctions. So it is ALWAYS a good idea to use a "best practices" method across the board. Then you can pick up ANY gun and it will function reliably.
If was such a good way to chamber a round, we would see the tier 1 units in the Military using it. They do not. Clue.
C4
Its only an non-issue if everything goes perfectly right EVERY SINGLE TIME. While you may be getting away with it on your particular gun, if you move onto another platform, you might get malfunctions. So it is ALWAYS a good idea to use a "best practices" method across the board. Then you can pick up ANY gun and it will function reliably.
If was such a good way to chamber a round, we would see the tier 1 units in the Military using it. They do not. Clue.
C4
To that end, it happens, now what? Does one drive on and assume it has chambered a rnd and tap/rack if they get a click vs a bang, or preemptively tap/rack which will at worst throw a round out, but you'll know the status of the gun vs hope/assume it had chambered a round during the AF?
To that end, it happens, now what? Does one drive on and assume it has chambered a rnd and tap/rack if they get a click vs a bang, or preemptively tap/rack which will at worst throw a round out, but you'll know the status of the gun vs hope/assume it had chambered a round during the AF?
I would pull the trigger and hope for the best and then immediately tap rack bang if it did not.
C4
THIS is the reason you don't rely on Auto Forwarding.....
If anyone thinks this "SEAL" is using proper pistol techniques you're nuts!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwB6jg0fHbk
32 sec
47sec
1.05 min
1.18 min
Nothing ever works for 100% at 100% time. No pistol, no car, no space shuttle does work 100% for 100% of the time.
That is why we develop emergency procedures and train for them. For using AF there are 3 that are needed.
1. AF does no work (happened to me on Glock) - procedure same when slide release do not work, is not accessible or we do not know where it is - slingshot slide.
2. AF does not load round (never happened to me) - procedure same as always when we hear click instead of bang - tap, rack, bang.
3. AF does not go to battery (happened to me on pistol that had general problems with return to battery on factory ammo - .40sw STI) - procedure same as in 1.
Or to make things simple, use tap, rack, bang every time.
Use of AF to shooters benefit (both in competitive or defensive use) should not be dismissed, just because it needs some training to make it valid skill for shooter.
Adrenaline_6
01-02-15, 14:57
THIS is the reason you don't rely on Auto Forwarding.....
If anyone thinks this "SEAL" is using proper pistol techniques you're nuts!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwB6jg0fHbk
32 sec
47sec
1.05 min
1.18 min
Wait. Either Tier 1 units use AF or they do not. This is a Seal training video, and he is obviously using it. It failed to do so at the end and he corrected it. Albeit, he lost some time, but thats the trade off I guess. It will save you time when it does and when it doesn't you lose some. For some, that might be an acceptable trade off. For some, not so much. To each their own I guess.
Grant,
I do see your point on the multi-platform possibility.
I would pull the trigger and hope for the best and then immediately tap rack bang if it did not.
C4
That's how I approach it. Just wanted confirmation it's not being taught otherwise and I needed updating on my approach to AF.
Wait. Either Tier 1 units use AF or they do not. This is a Seal training video, and he is obviously using it. It failed to do so at the end and he corrected it. Albeit, he lost some time, but thats the trade off I guess. It will save you time when it does and when it doesn't you lose some. For some, that might be an acceptable trade off. For some, not so much. To each their own I guess.
Grant,
I do see your point on the multi-platform possibility.
Below the vid, it say the shooter "is a Former US Marine, ,professionally certified Bodyguard, Department of Defense Security Contractor,Department of State High Threat Protection Personal Security Specialist,Firearms & Military H2H Combatives Instructor"
Not a mil training vid but a personal vid done following a SEAL shooting qual if I understand correctly. I don't know if SEAL shooting instructors would correct his use of AF, but does not appear to be training vid.
The guy seated the mag and then struck the bottom of the pistol to send the slide home...... Two separate motions. How do we not see a problem with this?
Adrenaline_6
01-02-15, 18:38
The guy seated the mag and then struck the bottom of the pistol to send the slide home...... Two separate motions. How do we not see a problem with this?
I agree. Two motions offer zero benefit. Two motions is not really an AF it is a "manual" one.
The guy seated the mag and then struck the bottom of the pistol to send the slide home...... Two separate motions. How do we not see a problem with this?
Yup, plus slamming the mag takes more effort and makes the reload choppy. You want a smooth, reliable, slick reload. I slide release just as fast as af, and probably get back on target quicker as I put the gun back on target as you slide release.
I'd like to see vids of these super fast afs.
If it does af, drive on, chamber check if you have time/cover.
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