Lever Action VS Detachable Magazine for Competitive Shooters

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[Alpha Sierra]

what?

[Eurodriver]

what?

I think Wyatt Earp And tactical beard are talking to themselves.

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[Eurodriver]

Too subtle for me, but don't let that affect your writing ;)

It all makes sense now... every word all comes together when I replace lever gun/bolt gun with pump shotgun/Saiga.

[Mauser KAR98K]

On my reason why I still use a tube gun at present is due to Put in and Obozo

[Alpha Sierra]

So that's what this is about?

I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about shotguns. For what I use them for, tubular magazines work just fine.

[ramairthree]

SA shotguns overall are a lot more finicky than SA rifles. Sort of like SA 22s.

90% of which is most likely due to feeding either the cheapest possible ammo.

I have found getting a tube fed SA shotgun running on the cheap stuff is a lot easier than getting a Turkish or Russian mag fed SA shotgun to run well on the cheap stuff.

My opinions on USPSA/3 Gun are probably not popular.

I would limit any shotgun to ten, any pistol to fifteen, and any rifle to 30 rounds per mag-
and set stages that required at least one mag change/reload for each.

That would be very expensive to do half a dozen stages, so realistically, 5 per shotgun, ten per pistol, and ten per rifle.

Hosefests/run and guns are fun,
and require good shooting,
but my personal, unpopular opinion is that mag changes, transitions, etc. should be a larger part of the timed skillset.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Shotgun ammo as a lot more variety of performance characteristics than rifle ammo. From breaching loads, birdshot, buck shot and slug- that is a much wider than any kind of variation from rifle rounds.

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[Crow Hunter]

I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about shotguns. For what I use them for, tubular magazines work just fine.

Me too.

Although I did shoot a tricked out Saiga one time. It was kind of like trying to shoot targets with an orangutan. I didn't like it at all.

It was obviously setup as a game gun and not practical at all.

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[Crow Hunter]

Could you elaborate? What made it orangutan-like in your experience compared with a traditional shotgun? Huge drum magazine? 40 round box mag that touched the ground? Tons of sharp, pokey, Tapco-esque crap bolted all over it?

It was really big and the balance was strange. It had an extended magazine that was below my beltline when it was shouldered. It had a much of Tapco crap on it and a strange C-more type sight on it. It had a huge crenelated muzzle brake on it that made it incredibly loud. When it recoiled it literally felt like it was squirming in my hands. Maybe something was loose?

It was also a pain to exchange the magazine. I noted that watching my brother shoot it thinking that magazines don't work better than a tube magazine if you have to fiddle with them to get them locked in.

It was also so heavy that you practically needed wheels on it. It was heavier than the tricked out M14 EBR that was there as well.

I only shot 2 magazines out of it. That was just me shooting on my hind legs at a stationary target. I laughed when my brother said we should shoot some skeet with it.

He got rid of it shortly after.

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[ChicagoTex]

I have to point out that the rifle analogy in the OP is completely unsound based on the fundamental purpose of the devices. Rifles are designed to fire singular projectiles accurately at range. Shotguns, while capable of firing singular projectiles (slugs) are primarily designed to fire multiple projectiles at substantially shorter range. While a soft-point is more likely to be effective against an unarmored target at close range than a rubber-tipped type, the difference in margin of effectiveness is minute compared to the difference between, say 00 Buck and a Brenneke slug on the same unarmored target when fired within a reasonable range for the buckshot. Now, if you want to compare a Saiga 12 that will ONLY fire rifled slugs to an AR or AK, go nuts, but I doubt you'll see many takers on the side of the bigger, heavier, less accurate, much lower capacity wannabe-rifle.

Setting aside that false equivalency, the ultimate crux of the question seems to be "is it reasonable to expect to be doing ammo type changes on any kind of regular basis?"
Well, that depends on whether or not, for whatever reason, a shotgun is your primary weapon and you cannot reliably predict the range at which you will be forced to engage targets. Despite certain disciplines being "hijacked" by gamers (I'm looking at you, IPSC), I believe the majority of practical/tactical shooting sports were devised to enhance the shooting skills of law enforcement officers, defense-minded citizens, and military personnel, all of whom can be and do to this day find themselves restricted to the shotgun and it's natural range limitations when firing shot. Under those circumstances, it very much behooves a shooter to be capable of executing a quick and reliable ammo change to mitigate those limitations; and where better to build those skills than in competitions designed for that explicit purpose?
If that annoys you, I'm sorry. But I have yet to see a single cop or US military combatant wielding a Saiga 12, nor rules explicitly stating that anyone fighting for their life will be doing so only out to 30-50yds. If that doesn't suit you, start your own box-magazine competition or figure out a way to make up the time mag-changing and racking elsewhere.

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[ChicagoTex]

Okay, I misunderstood you at least partially and you misunderstood me at least partially, although, in my defense, your original analogy was so coy that it was difficult for myself and apparently others to really get a bead on what you were saying.

My misunderstanding of you is that I thought you were arguing that switching to slugs shouldn't be done at all, whereas with your clarified position I now realize what you're objecting to is a forced transition back to buckshot. I actually agree with that position and your rationale for it. If I had a gun fully loaded with slugs, the only time I'd try to switch it over during an engagement is if I was reloading anyway. And while tube-fed shotguns have an arguable slight advantage on the ammo change front in that you can potentially only load as many slugs as you need (assuming, of course you can predict that accurately, which I'll freely admit is a sketchy proposition at best on a two-way range) and then the gun will immediately transition back to buckshot via what's left in the mag, I concede MAKING you switch back drastically overemphasizes this highly questionable advantage.

Regarding the latter part of my last post, it is now you who have misunderstood me. My arguement was not that tube-fed guns are better (although they certainly seem to offer a much, much higher reliability-to-cost ratio), but that tube guns are what pretty much everyone who is training has and uses - at least in the US - and that those people training the way they fight is infinitely more important than split times in my opinion. However, as alluded to above, I now recognize you're not disputing this.

[Alpha Sierra]

SA shotguns overall are a lot more finicky than SA rifles.

Not in my experience

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Shotgun ammo is a lot more variable, both by design and 'quality'. I've had some Win ammo that would chunk up a well worn 870 it swelled so much when fired. Add in different payload weights and propellant loads and that is a much wider envelope of energy than it seems comes from rifle ammo. I think that leads to a lot of the 'gun' issues.

[ramairthree]

Not in my experience

Go to any high volume three gun match or section of a forum and see how many SA shotgun issues there are vs. SA rifle or pistol issues.

Half of these issues may be bird shot and reduced recoil slugs not running well,
but many are good guns with good ammo that based on round size and nature just are not going to run like small, solider, taper cartridges.

We do not ask our ARs or AKs to have ammo move from a magazine in one direction, then move in a complete reverse direction to feed,
or feed rimmed cartridges from a magazine.

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[ChicagoTex]

The newer generation models (Vepr 12, Saiga 030, and custom shop Akdals) are quite reliable in my experience, and at least the Russian guns, before the executive order, were running on the order of $800-$1000, quite comparable with Benelli shotguns, which seem to be considered the gold standard of semi-auto fixed magazine shotguns.

Yes, quite comparable to the "gold standard", not as comparable to something a little cheaper like a Mossberg 930 or an FNH SLP on sale. Moreover, dont the Vepr 12 and Saiga 030 require some modification to be able to legally use full-capacity magazines in the US? Or is that included in your referenced prices?

[Aries144]

ghjkl