Why are there no two gun competitions?

[WillBrink]

Or are there? I competed in handgun comps (via IDPA mostly) and a few long gun comps, but never had an interest in three gun. I gravitate toward those comps that have some focus on "real world" scenarios and stock weapons. A comp I always thought would make sense with that in mind would be two gun: for example a stage that requires your primary long gun, followed by a stage that requires a transition to secondary weapon. As I am very unlikely to have an AR, pistol, and shot gun on my person, the three gun matches never interested me personally and I have minimal time with, or interest in, scatter guns. I'm sure three gun is fun, and has its uses, it just never interested me personally.

Does such a two gun comp exist? If not, why? If not, someone should start it!

[wildcard600]

How about dual wield competitons ? Yeah !!

[Digital_Damage]

akimbo FTW!

[TehLlama]

There are two gun competitions, and I like you would only have interest in them, but in my area they're pretty rare.

[Eurodriver]

Certainly.

It's called Law Enforcement.

[WillBrink]

There are two gun competitions, and I like you would only have interest in them, but in my area they're pretty rare.

They seem the most obvious competition as one, or maybe two is what you're likely to have. One yes, two yes, three, not so much. I could see scatter gun/pistol division, AR/pistol division, Scatter gun/revolver, and so forth.

[MountainRaven]

I've wondered the same thing. It also annoys that 3G comps don't normally involve any sort of transitions or emergency reloads.

But I also think there should be a WWII-era 3G division. M1911/M1911A1s, P-38s, TT33s, model 10s, and BHPs for handguns, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, SVT-38/40s, &c. for rifles (maybe a subdivision for bolt-actions), and Winchester 12s and 97s for shotgun.

ETA: If they're going to stick with three guns for three gun, they ought to make you carry all three. And then I'd restrict the shotgun to breaching and maybe the occasional emergency bad guy dump.

:jester:

[223to45]

We use to . It was just a local range thing. It was called Tac- Rifle.

The shotgun was used very rarely, then over time , use increased. And now it is full 3Gun under 3Gun Nation rules.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I saw something about 2-gun, but it looks like it was down at the Whittington Center and was carbine and precision rifle. Still sounds like fun.

I find shotgun to be a PITA. I know I should be better at it, but I joke with my buddies that if the zombies come I'm going to just leave the last round in the tube for me, because nobody can ever load a shotgun fast enough, plus that is a lot of lead when you only need a head shot. I'm never going to have a speed loader on me. In a defensive situation if I start with a shotgun, when it empty I'm dropping it like a bad habit and transitioning to a rifle or handgun.

We finally have box fed shotguns, but they make you convert them to full-retard version since your now in Open.

It makes 3-gun more expensive to get into, it's a skill that has extremely limited usefullness and i think it makes a barrier to entry for new shooters. To me the problem is that it is really hard to design stages that could take advantage of the shotgun unique attributes. Being able to take out multiple targets with one shot seems to me to be the best way to rig stages to tip the scale to the use of a shotgun. Or some kind of hard target that needs a lot of energy to kick over. Spend 10 shots with a 223 to 'disable' a 'car engine' or a shot from shotgun slug.

[El Cid]

What about the US Carbine Association? Thought it was a 2 gun thing. A buddy shoots the matches in WV. They had a national event in Volusia County, FL last year or earlier this year.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Here in Michigan we have a wonderful two-gun series, called ACTS or American Confederation of Tactical Shooters. Website:

http://www.actsshooters.com/

I've been participating for close to five years now. It's a wonderful concept and execution with a wonderful group of people. I can't say enough good things about it. While it is obviously a game, we try not to be "Gamers," and try to run stages in a way that is smart, as realistic as you can be with cardboard and steel targets that don't shoot back, and beneficial for development of skills useful in the real world. In most stages you carry a loaded rifle and loaded pistol for the entire stage, and can transition back and forth between them as appropriate. We do not ground guns, with very limited exceptions, we do not use dump barrels, gaming-only ridiculous features, etc.

Check out the website and either join there (preferred) or ask here if you have questions.

[TehLlama]

The thought occurs to me that a 'Tactical 2-Gun' competition emphasizing a run-what-you-brung or a 'run what actually makes sense' setup wouldn't force people to go out and buy a whole lot of specific doodads, and probably wouldn't garner quite the same level of aftermarket support, so they'd wind up being LE oriented shoots since that's primarily who would be setting up some of those events (patrol rifle/service pistol or scattergun/service pistol).

The reason we don't see tons of them is that they have to be really well put together by organizers who 'get it', and basically done so without the same sort of money pool that finances the bigger 3-Gun stuff, so there's a more grassroots appeal, but the gun industry doesn't exactly run on that type of money.

[lunchbox]

Frank Proctor is going to start hosting some 2-gun events at his facility down here in AL. I think the first one is Feb (14th) so I cannot say on stages/senarios/realistic nature, but I'd imagine Frank is going to put you to the test. Can't make Feb match, I don't think wife is going to let me skip Valentine's Day to shoot match esp. since went to LAV class on Mother's Day. I am going to try and make to March one, hopefully turn out encourages him to make a permniant monthly event.
http://www.wayofthegun.us/wotg-training-classes/

[Mauser KAR98K]

I would love to see something like ACTS take off and nip at 3-gun's heals. It would be a much practical competition than what 3-gun has become. The main reason why IDPA was started was because IPSC and USPSA have become a game's game and moved away from what Jeff Cooper had created it to be.

If IDPA were enterprising, they should incorporate something like ACTS into their organization. But they will have to drop the 10 - round mag rule. (Does IDPA still not permit lights on guns? I got scolded because my EDC that I was going to compete with had my trusty TRL-1. Would have failed the holster test when I took it off).

With that said, shotgun is something that I believe still needs to be in competition, minus the speed reloads. The last 3-gun comp I did last month had an optional stage to either run 50 yards up to 8 steel plates and engage them with a pistol, or hit the four 12"x14" plates with slugs from the first part of the stage. The first part included 8 standard IPSC targets and 4 poppers. We could either hit all with a pistol, including spring up to the second part of the stage, engage with rifle than pistol, or use all three. I used all three. I staged my shotgun with four slugs behind four birds hot shells. Nailed to poppers and hit 3 out of 4 large plates, the furthest being about 90 yards out. 12x14 inch plate maybe large, but at that distance under time with a unified slug is very much a challenge, especially if you haven't shot that far with slugs or haven't shot slugs for some time.

The shotgun in three gun also aids in learning to reload the slowest modern weapon for practical defense under pressure. Sometimes we don't get a choice, so for me, that skill is a must to have. Either you can do it at a match, or do what I did and loaded from a shell caddy during dove season. My reloads since the are very quick and smooth.

[Aries144]

ghjkl

[SomeOtherGuy]

I would love to see something like ACTS take off and nip at 3-gun's heals. It would be a much practical competition than what 3-gun has become. The main reason why IDPA was started was because IPSC and USPSA have become a game's game and moved away from what Jeff Cooper had created it to be.

If IDPA were enterprising, they should incorporate something like ACTS into their organization. But they will have to drop the 10 - round mag rule. (Does IDPA still not permit lights on guns? I got scolded because my EDC that I was going to compete with had my trusty TRL-1. Would have failed the holster test when I took it off).

With that said, shotgun is something that I believe still needs to be in competition, minus the speed reloads.

A couple comments. ACTS currently limits handguns to 15rds and rifles to 30rds in the mag, which was chosen to be realistic for what you might use in a real scenario, and prevent people from going to ridiculously large mags (I think I've seen 52rd mags for 3-gun) but also not pretend the ban is still in effect. Tactical brakes/comps are OK but put you in open class. Gamer brakes (over 3" long or 1" diameter) are not allowed. Legal SBRs are OK and starting to pop up. Full auto is not allowed because the range we use doesn't allow it.

A recent rule change allowed a stage to require use of a white light, and they are never prohibited from being mounted (on rifle or pistol). We've had a couple stages where you needed a light to identify a target. Many people use their EDC pistol for a match, although the majority use a standard size Glock or M&P (etc.) in a quality but non-competition holster. The rules are written to try and be realistic like IDPA, but I hesitate to compare to IDPA because I have never shot an IDPA match and I understand that some people have complaints about IDPA for this or that.

I have shot IPSC, and ACTS is completely different in attitude and approach. Air gunning is discouraged and not common. Blind stages are common, usually one per match. Competitors are encouraged to come up with their own ways of dealing with a scenario, as long as it's not an unrealistic gamer approach - we do require tactical order and are fairly strict about use of cover.


The competitions I participated in in southern MS at the Woolmarket gun club were "shoot what you bring" and had a larger focus on shooting well under exertion than prewalking through a stage and planning out the most efficient way to shoot. Blind stages, obstacles, awkward shooting positions, 50 yard dashes carrying heavy ammo cans, etc. Race gun equipment often failed because of its lack of retention when brushed against items or crawling. Some of the IPSC types shooters complained about 'too much movement, not enough shooting' and didn't hang around when their old methods weren't competitive.

That sounds very similar to what we do at ACTS. Running is a constant on stages, and we often have things like requiring you to carry something heavy (for example, one person has a medical dummy that has been an injured person to move a couple times; another recent match required you to carry two ammo cans, loaded with rocks, between cover positions), crawl under stuff while safely carrying your rifle, shoot alternating sides as you go around wall panels, shoot while carrying something heavy, shoot under a very low barrier (maybe 6-8" above ground), etc. Most stages are very physical and it's great to learn, on the clock, shooting when you are making physical effort, rather than just doing the Blue Danube waltz with your 4lb weight, 8 oz trigger, rifle-primers-only .38 Super racegun. Positive retention is required, slings are mandatory on rifles, and having a gun fall or be intentionally grounded (unless the stage requires grounding, which is extremely rare) gets you disqualified. No fancy gear is required and skilled shooters have won with fairly basic and modestly priced setups.

I also shoot F-class which is pretty far at the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm not saying that ACTS is the only one true shooting sport. I'm saying it's a great concept for people who want to enjoy a competition that uses skills reflecting modern gunfighting.

[Koshinn]

Or are there? I competed in handgun comps (via IDPA mostly) and a few long gun comps, but never had an interest in three gun. I gravitate toward those comps that have some focus on "real world" scenarios and stock weapons. A comp I always thought would make sense with that in mind would be two gun: for example a stage that requires your primary long gun, followed by a stage that requires a transition to secondary weapon. As I am very unlikely to have an AR, pistol, and shot gun on my person, the three gun matches never interested me personally and I have minimal time with, or interest in, scatter guns. I'm sure three gun is fun, and has its uses, it just never interested me personally.

Does such a two gun comp exist? If not, why? If not, someone should start it!

US carbine association.

Las Vegas has at least two local non-affiliated carbine+pistol competitions a month too.

[Jer]

Simple. Do your own.

We would put on our own and doing so allows you to modify it as you see fit. We would often run a precision rifle stage for any 30cal rifle instead of a shotgun stage. People LOVED it and I don't know why more competitions aren't run like this. It was a lot of fun to transition from run and gun to long range precision and back. I prefer the precision work to shotgun work any day of the week and twice on Sunday. That's just me though and I fully understand why 3-gun is the way it is normally.

[HD1911]

We have them locally and they're a blast... no pun intended.

I have no interest in 3 Gun either. But between IDPA, IPSC, and 2 Gun... 2 Gun is my Fav.

[cbx]

I'm the same way. I own shot guns, but I only use them to euthanize cattle and bird control.

They're boring as hell to me. Even shooting trap is only good for about half an hour.

Even revolvers don't excite me any more.

I could burn through $1k in nato ammo and still want to do more.

I'd be all over a 2 gun comp with carbines and pistols.

[glocktogo]

We used to have a great 2-Gun match locally with rifle targets up to 300 yards (but 85% of shots inside 50). The match director moved on and they switched to 3-Gun, which I have no interest in. :(

[mike240]

I shot some at a small club up north. The emphasis was on the rifle and no stage could have more than 8 pistol shots (if shot clean) so that it was not an arms race about hi caps and single action versus whatever. Two classes. Iron or glass. Of course with time it got polluted and became 3 gun.

[JusticeM4]

Or are there? I competed in handgun comps (via IDPA mostly) and a few long gun comps, but never had an interest in three gun. I gravitate toward those comps that have some focus on "real world" scenarios and stock weapons. A comp I always thought would make sense with that in mind would be two gun: for example a stage that requires your primary long gun, followed by a stage that requires a transition to secondary weapon. As I am very unlikely to have an AR, pistol, and shot gun on my person, the three gun matches never interested me personally and I have minimal time with, or interest in, scatter guns. I'm sure three gun is fun, and has its uses, it just never interested me personally.

Does such a two gun comp exist? If not, why? If not, someone should start it!

Not sure why not either.

But if you never try 3 gun, u should. I love it. You are not carrying all 3 with u during the stage. Usually your pistol is holstered, and you carry one long gun only and move/transition to the other. It's a lot more fun than IDPA to me. Esp when u run a pump shotgun instead of semi.

[Failure2Stop]

As said by a few others:
USCA

Nationals this year will be at Peacemaker in WV.