Found 2 old AR pre-ban uppers that won’t fit any of my lowers

[Ed L.]

A family member found two old uppers that have been warehoused for decades. They have no idea where the matching lowers are.

One is from a 1980 vintage Colt SP-1. It has triangular handguard. The other is from a late1980s vintage Colt AR-15a2 HBAR.

Neither will fit any of my current ARs and I suspect that any lower that will fit one of these uppers will not fit the other.

When I put the SP1 upper on a Colt 6920 lower, the rear takedown pin will not go in.

When I put the HBAR upper on a Colt 6920 upper, the rear pin will close but the front pin is incredibly loose to the point that there is an enormous amount of play between the upper and lower because the upper has a much bigger hole for the pivot pin. Take a look at this not very good cell phone photo below that shows the gap between the HBAR upper and the Colt 6920 lower when the pins are closed:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/Hbararupper_zpsee172fc7.jpg

So I have two AR uppers that will not fit any of my AR lowers, and any lower that will fit one of these ARs will not likely fit the other.

Does anyone make a modern lower that will fit either of these or do I have to search for a pre-ban lower or maybe we should just sell these uppers?

thanks

[ezveedub]

The Colt SP1 upper will probably need the offset front pin adapter and the HBAR has the large hole front pin and needs an adapter as well.

[scottryan]

Can you take a picture of each upper?

They are both most likely large front hole uppers. They aren't worth anything and I would shitcan them on gunbroker.

[Ed L.]

Thanks, guys.

Definitely large hole uppers that will not fit current ARs.

Am having photo problems, will post later.

[Ed L.]

I am having major F problems with photobucket so this may take a while . . . Photobucket is inverting and turning around pictures that I am loading. Using photobucket will correct any low blood pressure issues.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarright_zps093e48cd.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarleft_zpsa1e1ab06.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/sp1right_zps71654676.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/sp1left_zps19d73a2c.jpg

[ezveedub]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/sp2_zps178ffee0.jpg

You need the original Colt large hole slab side lower with the screw together front pivot pin/bolt for that upper. Was just working on one last weekend.

[SeriousStudent]

Ed, before you take them to GB, it might be worth asking our mutual friend Wayne. He might know somebody that could be interested.

Couldn't hurt, and might help. Good luck.

[ClassIIIGunsmith]

Old colt uppers have .315 diameter front pins which means you need a old sp1 lower to have a working rifle/ sell them for good money to somebody who needs an upper

[Ed L.]

I plan to buy an SP1 lower for the triangle handguard upper. I like it because that is what M-16s looked like when I was a kid and young adult. It's what they looked like in all of the movies and TV shows of the time. It is also like the gun I shot in ROTC.

[Ed L.]

Here is a photo of the HBAR upper on a 6940 lower. I used a DPMS Offset Pivot Pin Adapter Bushing .315" to .250" Diameter. Even though there is no massive wiggle in the front, however if you look at the rear where the arrow is, there is a noticeable gap between the Colt AR15A2 HBAR upper and the Colt 6940 lower. It is more apparent in person than I am able to depict with my photo.

I'm not one of those people who think the upper and lower need to be super tight, but if you were to look at the gap in person, you could imagine lubrication and other things squirting out when the gun is fired.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbaron69401_zps57a559b6.jpg

[SteyrAUG]

Here is a photo of the HBAR upper on a 6940 lower. I used a DPMS Offset Pivot Pin Adapter Bushing .315" to .250" Diameter. Even though there is no massive wiggle in the front, however if you look at the rear where the arrow is, there is a noticeable gap between the Colt AR15A2 HBAR upper and the Colt 6940 lower. It is more apparent in person than I am able to depict with my photo.

I'm not one of those people who think the upper and lower need to be super tight, but if you were to look at the gap in person, you could imagine lubrication and other things squirting out when the gun is fired.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbaron69401_zps57a559b6.jpg

I'm no expert, but it looks like Colt definitely changed things over the years.

To do anything remotely useful with that upper, you are going to need to track down the correct H-Bar lower for it. Could be a neat scavenger hunt project.

[eodinert]

Just a thought, but the rear take down hole on an upper is slotted, and the front takedown hole has an eccentric/offset bushing that can rotate (at least on your setup). I'm suggesting that if the front adapter was rotated into a slightly different position, it might close up that gap.

That being said, I'd just get a new small pin upper, swap the parts and be done with it.

[Ed L.]

Thanks, guys.

I picked up a complete Colt SP-1 lower. Both uppers fit it, but with quite a bit of looseness and there seems to be a visible space between the back of the SP-1 upper and the buffer area of the SP-1 lower. This is the case with both the A1 and A2 uppers.

It has been a long time since I handled an SP1 or an M16A1. I remember the upper lower fit being loose with those, but I can't remember if it was this loose. In comparison, the fit between my Colt 6920 and 6940 is much tighter, as is the fit between those newer Colt lowers and my BCM upper as well as my 2 HK416 uppers. I guess I will have to carefully test it and find out.

[SteyrAUG]

Thanks, guys.

I picked up a complete Colt SP-1 lower. Both uppers fit it, but with quite a bit of looseness and there seems to be a visible space between the back of the SP-1 upper and the buffer area of the SP-1 lower. This is the case with both the A1 and A2 uppers.

Are you still using an adapter or do you have the correct big screw?

[Ed L.]

The SP-1 lower that I bought has the correct screw size for the front/pivot pin. It uses a pivot screw that screws into a bushing that has a screw on its face. Below is a picture of it:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/sp1_zps9766e023.jpg

[Ed L.]

As I said in a previous post, it has been over 20 years since I last handled an SP-1 and I remember the upper/lower fit being loose, but not this loose. Here is a closeup of the upper/lower fit. If you look at the back of the upper where it mates with the buffer area of the SP-1 lower it would seem that there is a gap. Does this gap look excessive to anyone?

thanks.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/sp1gap_zps112c91dc.jpg

[ClassIIIGunsmith]

Looks correct to me. If you dont like the play in it, then grap a disposable ear plug and place it under the rear pin which will stiffen it up. It may help if you could give a year of manufacture on that lower so we could tell if its was when colt was about to change their tooling to the SPII style which started around mid 81-82 when they started their sear block era and big trigger pins. Just ask more question you have on it if you do.

[Ed L.]

Thanks ClassIIIGunsmith ,

The lower's serial number is 1608**. The upper was part of an SP-1 bought in the fall of 1980.

[SteyrAUG]

I'll try and pull some of my old Colts and take pictures of the same area for comparison this week. Doesn't look too bad.

[Ed L.]

Thanks.

Maybe I'm imagining things since I have not handled an SP1 in such a long time,

[ramairthree]

I bought mine a few years old/used back around '84.
It appears to have a better fit.

The non-standard parts, Colt's lack of attention for the non-contract buyer, etc. for decades have left a bad taste in my mouth.

I know they have their fans now, and many will only buy a new Colt,
but they have not been the greatest company to the consumer in their history.

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/2015-01/7AA56D5F-1E2E-4EDC-AA00-C018A3961FFA_zpszumg8wwd.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/2015-01/7AA56D5F-1E2E-4EDC-AA00-C018A3961FFA_zpszumg8wwd.jpg.html)

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/2015-01/8C5F4026-EB83-4936-A669-24F84A18C489_zpsdozshnnw.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/2015-01/8C5F4026-EB83-4936-A669-24F84A18C489_zpsdozshnnw.jpg.html)

[scottryan]

That gap is normal.

[Ed L.]

Thanks, guys. Hopefully I will shoot it within the next week or three.

[SteyrAUG]

OK, as promised.

My Colt SP1 Carbine.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2cgdg7c.jpg

My Colt Government Model.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2zois8l.jpg

My Colt HBar (upper replaced by Colt under warranty about 10 years after purchase)

http://i57.tinypic.com/ehgi6w.jpg

My SP1 triangle handguards (yikes I never noticed that gap before this thread).

http://i57.tinypic.com/oqzzgz.jpg

[ClassIIIGunsmith]

Look at II and IV the gap is larger on them. The gap is 100% normal. The reason being that they were completely hand fabricated on a lath and mill which can cause alot of error. If you dont belevive me then look at the inside and you will see all the marring from the drilling. Back then everybody was selling whole guns which made them look like they fitted better because they were (like LaRu 1911's) so unless you want to hunt down them lowers (almost impossible) because during the AWB of the 90's many people striped guns apart for the parts. And when 2004 the light shined and me and many others bought all the SP1 lowers using all that money I made off selling 8 AKMs in 1999 for the 2k event (still waiting). So what Im saying is its next to impossibe. O' and how did it shoot?

[Ed L.]

Thanks guys. I am no longer concerned about the gap after seeing and reading all of the info here.

[Ed L.]

Okay, an update to an old thread.

I have decided I am interested in selling the HBAR upper from a Colt AR15A2. It has a larger pivot pin size so it will not fit on currently made ARs. I think it takes a .315 pivot pin. I am wondering what would be a fair price to sell this upper. I don't know if it has been fired, but it has some cosmetic blemishes from being stored:


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarright_zps093e48cd.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarleft_zpsa1e1ab06.jpg

I will try to take some better pictures tomorrow.

thanks

[Iraqgunz]

Correct it is a .315.


Okay, an update to an old thread.

I have decided I am interested in selling the HBAR upper from a Colt AR15A2. It has a larger pivot pin size so it will not fit on currently made ARs. I think it takes a .315 pivot pin. I am wondering what would be a fair price to sell this upper. I don't know if it has been fired, but it has some cosmetic blemishes from being stored:


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarright_zps093e48cd.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarleft_zpsa1e1ab06.jpg

I will try to take some better pictures tomorrow.

thanks

[Renegade04]

Okay, an update to an old thread.

I have decided I am interested in selling the HBAR upper from a Colt AR15A2. It has a larger pivot pin size so it will not fit on currently made ARs. I think it takes a .315 pivot pin. I am wondering what would be a fair price to sell this upper. I don't know if it has been fired, but it has some cosmetic blemishes from being stored:


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarright_zps093e48cd.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarleft_zpsa1e1ab06.jpg

I will try to take some better pictures tomorrow.

thanks

These will work fine on new lowers (.250" pivot pin diameter) with the use of an adapter bushing (.315"-.250"). I use on a Model 602 clone I did using a Colt SP1 upper and a Nodak lower.

[ClassIIIGunsmith]

Okay, an update to an old thread.

I have decided I am interested in selling the HBAR upper from a Colt AR15A2. It has a larger pivot pin size so it will not fit on currently made ARs. I think it takes a .315 pivot pin. I am wondering what would be a fair price to sell this upper. I don't know if it has been fired, but it has some cosmetic blemishes from being stored:


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarright_zps093e48cd.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/hbarleft_zpsa1e1ab06.jpg

I will try to take some better pictures tomorrow.

thanks

If your selling just the upper then you're looking at $300 on a good day. Because not many people need a .315 diameter upper for a lower of same size. Also it's not a A1 upper which is what people want to do retro/original (I call it ROs) like Renagade04. And then there are people like me who think Colt died in the mid-80's and don't want to touch post '85 stuff. I've seen them sell for as low as $260 at a pawnshop near my house. Good luck with whatever you do with it.

[Ed L.]

Thanks, I forgot to mention that it has the original bolt carrier and bolt, and charging handle so it is a complete upper.

[Iraqgunz]

Someone will buy it. All things being equal, if I were buying it and depending on why I would either get another A2 upper with the .250 lug or I would consider a rifle flat top upper.


Thanks, I forgot to mention that it has the original bolt carrier and bolt, and charging handle so it is a complete upper.

[ClassIIIGunsmith]

Same price as I said earlier because I thought I saw it in it. You could always "re upper" the rifle and buy a modern A2 or a A4 upper with the .250 front pin and not a .351 hole so it can be used on any lower while still using your other existing parts and have a upper laying around.