View Full Version : combat reliable 1911
about 5 years agao my dad bought me a springer 1911 mil-spec when i joined the military, in the hopes that i would bring it on my deployments like he did with one of his 1911 in nam. it only has about 5-600 rds through it and has really sat in my safe waiting to get custum work done to it. well its now time to have the work done bc im getting out of the army and will have more time to train and shoot my personal weapons "i said train because here in the infantry round counts and signing for ammo is more important than putting them down range" i dont want anything crazy done to it as it fit my hands good from the factory. i just want it to be super reliable "or as close to my glocks as posible" and would like better groups out of it. what would you 1911 die hards do and were would you get it done. the budget is 500$ including nite sights.
Start shooting it again. Then decide what is needed to meet your needs / wants. It must function and you must be able to get a clean fast sight picture. After that, it is personal choice.
MarshallDodge
06-28-08, 14:00
This is how I would build it:
Novak or XS 24/7 sights.
Beavertail with memory bump. With this change you will have to go to a commander style hammer. Get a good hammer and sear from someone like Cylinder & Slide or EGW.
You can do a longer trigger or some skateboard tape on the grip and a few other mods to your taste but that should get you started.
what about in the accuracy department it shoots around 5-6 inches at 25 meters, the night sites are a must. i was just looking at the reliablity jobs soom gunsmiths offer and maybe a match grade barrel. do you think that will show much improvement.:confused:
I'd venture a guess that your springer will wake up in the accuracy dept if you have a bushing fitted to the factory barrel. I had my gunsmith fit an Ed Brown bushing to my bare bones Colt commander and it made a huge difference. Factory barrels now-a-days tend to be very good.
When you say it fits your hand good, does that mean you don't get pinched from the factory grip safety/hammer? If so, then you'll be able to save the cost of having a beavertail fitted (and frame refinished). Like Paul45 said, go to the range and put a few hundred rounds through it.
If your $500 were mine to spend:
retain the factory sights - $0
fitted bushing - $25-$50
barrel crown - $25
reliability job - $85
CTC laser grips - $300
* roundtrip overnight shipping - $100+
* if you're lucky enough to have a decent smith close by then you can omit this from the list.
ETA pic of my sorta bare bones 1911
http://tinyurl.com/62z4xu
good luck with your project, and be sure to post updates/pics when you're done!
MarshallDodge
06-28-08, 15:02
5-6 inches at 25 yards is good enough for a combat gun in my opinion.
How is the barrel lockup?
How tight is the barrel bushing?
i cant look at it right now as im in kirkuk for a little bit longer. but if my memory serves me right, when its locked to the rear the barrel rattles more then my dads which i thought was odd because everything else on the gun is nice and tight.
what would you 1911 die hards do and were would you get it done. the budget is 500$ including nite sights.
Springfield Armory has a top notch 1911 custom shop in house, and any work they do is covered under their lifetime warranty... If it were me, I would call them on the phone, tell them my wants / needs / price range, and take their recommendations...
Just my .02
B
I will comment on the things I know about. 1st, your 1911 should be bettewr than a Glock in every way. If not, that needs to be fixed on the 1911. First, a reliability package should include,
- a fully fitted extractor. There are about 20 fit points on an extractor to make it perfect.
- lower the ejection port and cut for loaded round ejection.
- extended(ans tuned) ejector.
- feed ramp recut and polished as needed.
- confirm feeding and ejection.
The action job should include:
- de MIM critical parts like slide stop, sear, hammer
- fitting of trigger and frame slots
- sear and hammer cutting. Hammer hooks should be 0.020 or longer for carry. I like the EGW hammer at 0.023". A good smith can make a nice trigger pull without creep at these lengths.
- smooth inside of frame
- readjust springs for your desired pull weight.
- fit new thumb safety to sear and your thumb.
David Thomas
06-28-08, 15:40
To me, the most important thing to do with a mil-spec Springer would be to replace the factory 2 piece barrel with a Kart or other quality barrel and bushing and have the new barrel and bushing installed by a quality smtih.
Some people are not bothered by the 2 piece barrel; however, I am not one of them. I do not consider a 1911 with a 2 piece barrel to be a hard use gun that I can trust.
Your Springer may or may not have a 2 piece barrel, but i would check to be sure. Most mil-spec's do.
rubberneck
06-28-08, 16:33
First and foremost I would have reliability work done. Most smiths offer a reliability package that is in the $100 (+/- $20) range. I would also make sure to replace the MIM extractor with a quailty aftermartket part (EGW, Ed Brown, Wilson). \
From there good sights (Go with a sight with a Novak rear sight cut) are a must and everyone and their brother makes a sight for that cut Including Heinie. Next would be a trigger job with good ignition parts. If there is anything left over I'd have a Kart barrel fitted. If there isn't enough to pay for a fitted barrel get a quality drop in replacement tube. KKM, Jarvis and Storm Lake all make good drop in barrels that won't break the bank.
All that work will get you 90% there. Having the magwell beveled makes changing mags much easier but is a luxury behind the other mods.
well after going to the springer web site, i think im just going to save another 200$ and have them add the loaded package to it. its a little more than what i wanted but i think ill be happy with that in the end. now if i could just get home and start spending some of this money:)
toddackerman
06-28-08, 17:58
what about in the accuracy department it shoots around 5-6 inches at 25 meters, the night sites are a must. i was just looking at the reliablity jobs soom gunsmiths offer and maybe a match grade barrel. do you think that will show much improvement.:confused:
If it's shooting 5-6" groups at 25 yards, it's not the gun. Factory guns should easily shoot 3- 4" groups at 25 yards if held rock solid. Wilson only guarantees 2" groups at 25 yards after being customized.
Forget about the barrel upgrade. Concentrate on reliability first. What that means is a proper Ramp and Throat job, the right springs (19# main spring and 18 1/2 recoil springs are what I run), a crisp trigger at 4#- 5# weight, a relieved ejection port, a properly tuned extractor (can't be stressed enough for a self defense piece), and good mags. Many like Wilson's. I have had the best luck with the Tripp research GENII Cobra 8 round mags. Try one of each and see how they work.
as far as reliable ammo goes, there is none more reliable than 230 Gn. FMJ/ Hard Ball, but if your gun is Ramped and Throated correctly, it should feed the more advanced Hollow Points like the Winchester 230 Gn Ranger, Federal 230 Gn Tactical HST, and Speer 230 Gn Gold Dot cartridges.
believe me its the gun, more than one person has shot it on more than one range session and these persons are trained profesionals on a level that way surpasses me and im considered rather skilled in my job. each time it was shot for grouping purposes it was on the bench with differant types of ball ranging from 180 and up and 5-6 inches was about the average. this is also one of the reason it has sat in the safe for so long, i have not had time to mess with it.
oo ya and i run wilson mags i think there 37D? does that sound right.
47D is pretty much the standard Wilson mag. I would opt for a reliability package, de-mim critical parts. 10-8 front and rear sights with a front night sight. Beavertail, replace the barrel if two piece, extended thumb safety.
well after going to the springer web site, i think im just going to save another 200$ and have them add the loaded package to it. its a little more than what i wanted but i think ill be happy with that in the end. now if i could just get home and start spending some of this money:)
From Springfield Brochure,
"1911-A1 Loaded Package ................................................................................................ $765.00
Upgrade your older 1911-A1 model with new Springfield “Loaded” features!!
Install Novak low mount rear sight, dovetail front sight, 3-Dot tritium night sights, lightweight aluminum speed trigger, extended ambidextrous
thumb safety, flat checkered mainspring housing, beavertail grip safety, delta hammer, cocobolo grips, carry bevel™ all sharp edges of pistol,
deburr pistol internally, tune extractor & ejector, recut barrel throat and polish feed ramp, titanium firing pin with heavy duty firing pin spring, tune
trigger to 4.5lb pull, parkerize or blue frame, slide & small parts as needed."
I would be sure to ask about each part which will be installed because that is over a $1000 worth of work. If they fit a bunch of MIM parts to your firearm, this is not a good deal. If they are all "professional model" level parts, then this is a great deal. I would ask.
Also, I would have them replace the slide stop. Sure, everyone says this part is a drop in, but to do it correctly there are some fitting and function checks which need to be done.
Also, you may consider having them not give you a titanium firing pin. They give a slightly lighter firing pin strike IMO.
Also, I would consider having them use a standard dovetail rear sight nite sight replacement over the Novak. Yea, the Novak is all the rage, but it can't be snaged on something to operate the slide. This is a key disabled use function. Also, make sure the MS housing is not ILS, unless you want that feature.
Just a little personal experience, use it as you see fit.
Now I'm going to say something crazy. I like my Wilson mags, but the factory springfield mags, if they are correctly formed, are super. I mainly use Wilsons because of the plastic base for ensuring proper seating. Of course, you can buy short pads to screw on for that. The SA mags have the dimple which is supposed to be good. I think it is a last round feeding failure that occurs sometimes even in a tuned gun. I think the idea is that there is less spring pressure up on the last round, so it needs to be slowed down with the dimple.
Also, with SA type mags, I always sand or file the inner edge which touches the ammo to make it smooth to reduce drag and increase feeding speed. Up to a certain point, more speed helps feeding as long as the round doesn't bounce and get in front of the extractor. That is why the dimple and good mag springs are available.
toddackerman
06-29-08, 10:54
I just did a rebuild of a loaded, and he will not be betting "Non-MIM" parts for the price of $765. Actually the stock gun with the factory parts was very reliable, and didn't need anything for the average guy to use as a blaster at the range. I think $765.00 is actually a pretty good deal for an out of the box 1911 from a reputable manufacturer like SA.
However, the rebuild I did was for my new CCW piece, and I didn't want to scrimp on anything that might be questionable down the road at the "Wrong Time" like MIM parts (which BTW I think we all, including myself make way too much about).
I replaced everything except the barrel, the grip safety and Tritium Front Sight with either Wilson, Ed Brown, or 10-8 parts. I did all the labor except the checkering of the front strap and mainspring housing.
Here are my detailed costs that I bought or could not perform:
Item / Cost
Basic Gun Bought Slightly Used$600
Spring Kit, Mainspring, Recoil Spring, Firing Pin Spring$14
Wilson Deluxe Hammer 299B $48
Wilson Sear Spring 417 $7
Wilson Extended Ejector 34 $30
Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor $30
Wilson Deluxe Sear 314 $17
Ed Brown Hard Core Slide Stop$29
Wilson Extended Thumb Safety 6B $32
10-8 Rear Sight .140" U-Notch $35
10-8 Hard Pin Set $15
Wilson Firing Pin Stop $17
Wilson Disconnector $15
Wilson Hammer Strut $4
Gunner Grips $65
Ed Brown Recoil Spring Plug $8
Ed Brown Recoil Spring Guide $15
Greider Short Trigger $17
Grip Screws $4
Checkering Labor $175
Gun Kote $30
Total $1,207
Again, this was with me providing all labor (including the Gun Kote re-finish over parkerizing) except the checkering which I had a local Smith do. So I agree that with non-MIM parts and the labor, it would be greater than an additional $1,000.
Here's a Pic:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/toddackerman/Loaded4.jpg
Is it unreliable now?
Send it to EGW and get a reliability package, and a bushing fit. Try not to go overboard. Talk to them and see what they recommend.
EGW is top shelf, and their prices are very reasonable. I have used several of their components, and all have been extremely well machined and reliable.
I have also heard good things about the Springfield Custom shop. Good work, good prices, and fast turn around. Talk to them and tell them what you are looking for.
-RD62
John Harrison has been spoken of highly from folks I know who've used him. His rates seemed reasonable to me.
http://www.harrisoncustom.com/Services.aspx
The mil-spec should have the ejection port lowered already, this is a different gun than the GI.
SeaSoldier
06-29-08, 18:39
A Rock River 5" Pro Carry or a Les Baer TRS are hard to beat. Both of these models have been in my stable for quite awhile and have been very accurate and reliable.
My TRS has been 100%.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/TRSlanyard.jpg
toddackerman
06-29-08, 23:03
A Rock River 5" Pro Carry or a Les Baer TRS are hard to beat. Both of these models have been in my stable for quite awhile and have been very accurate and reliable.
You must be from the Quad Cities.?
How do you compare a 2nd tier production pistol (RRA) to a custom Les Baer? Just asking and NOT trying to start a quarrel.
BTW...I grew up in Rock Island.
toddackerman
06-29-08, 23:09
My TRS has been 100%.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/TRSlanyard.jpg
As well it should be for the price.
As well it should be for the price.
And you know how much I paid for it exactly how?
Buck gave you very good advice--carefully consider doing exactly what he said.
Also, before you do anything, read Hilton Yam's stuff:
http://www.10-8performance.com/id11.html
http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html
http://www.10-8performance.com/id9.html
http://www.10-8performance.com/id17.html
toddackerman
06-30-08, 02:13
And you know how much I paid for it exactly how?
I don't...but I know what they sell for new, and who cares? Everyone gets my point. It's a quality piece with a price to match. Everyone comes across a deal now and then. including me.
David Thomas
06-30-08, 07:25
You must be from the Quad Cities.?
How do you compare a 2nd tier production pistol (RRA) to a custom Les Baer? Just asking and NOT trying to start a quarrel.
BTW...I grew up in Rock Island.
How are RRA's 1911s 2nd tier production pistols?
Examples of 2 RRA's 1911s that I own:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/DavidThomas/spegel1911005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/DavidThomas/RRAtactical001-1.jpg
I agree with SeaSoldier on the TRS and RRA 1911s; however, the original poster has a Springfield Mil-Spec and a budget of $500. So, it does not sound like he is in the market for either.
Back on topic:
I have heard nothing but good things from Sprinfield's custom shop. They may in fact be the place to go for both quality work and fast turn around time.
I stand by the statement I made earlier, I see the 2 piece barrel as more of a liability than any of the mim small parts. The gun may be reliable with that barrel now, but it is not accurate nor would I consider it to be durable. A new 1 piece barrel and properly fit bushing would be my first change, followed by higher quality small parts.
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 08:41
5-6 inches at 25 yards is good enough for a combat gun in my opinion.
How is the barrel lockup?
How tight is the barrel bushing?
I prefer to have at least 3 inches with 2 inches at 25 yards being what I want. I won't accept a gun that won't shoot inside at least 4 inches. 6 inches is way too big.
Pat
I don't...but I know what they sell for new, and who cares? Everyone gets my point. It's a quality piece with a price to match. Everyone comes across a deal now and then. including me.
That's correct, you don't.
How do you compare a 2nd tier production pistol (RRA) to a custom Les Baer? Just asking and NOT trying to start a quarrel.
Todd you wouldn't be thinking of Rock Island Arsenal (RIA) would you? The Rock River Arms (RRA) 1911's I've personaly seen are just as nice as the Baers, price was similar to Baer as well.
The thread isn't about who paid what for which pistol. If we're going to discuss which gun model someone should buy, it's reasonable to assume we're talking about normal street price regardless of what any particular member may have paid in the past.
Thank you for your cooperation.
That's correct, you don't.
Care to share with us how you can get a LB TRS on the budget stated in this thread?
SeaSoldier
06-30-08, 09:47
My Bad guys. I didn't catch the budget part.
My Bad guys. I didn't catch the budget part.
Apparently quite a few didn't. ;)
If we're going to discuss which gun model someone should buy, it's reasonable to assume we're talking about normal street price.
Absolutely, big difference between normal street price and MSRP.
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