View Full Version : Open Carry!
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toddackerman
06-29-08, 23:06
Why on earth would one want to open carry other than in a rural area and drum up all the concern from the Gun Grabbers who see you. It just fuels their fire, and gives up one of the biggest elements of tactical warfare..."The element of Surprise".
Better to CCW IMHO, and there are NO disadvantages to CCW.
in Virginia if you to a restaurant with an ABC on license your only choice is OC....
sucks, but such is the law
toddackerman
06-30-08, 02:11
in Virginia if you to a restaurant with an ABC on license your only choice is OC....
sucks, but such is the law
What does ABC mean?
Why on earth would one want to open carry other than in a rural area and drum up all the concern from the Gun Grabbers who see you. It just fuels their fire, and gives up one of the biggest elements of tactical warfare..."The element of Surprise".
Better to CCW IMHO, and there are NO disadvantages to CCW.
In small numbers I guess I understand where you are coming from with this opinion however I don't agree. In my experience criminals are not willing to endure unnecessary risk to their lives knowingly for what they are about steal/damage etc. ( I understand most of these thugs are a few fries short of a happy meal but read on) Obviously you would assume they understand the inherent risk but in general when met with the smallest amount of resistance (again in my experience) they flee fast.
If a thug was walking up to a bank, 7/11, etc to do his business and spotted 5 or 6 people standing in line open carrying their weapons I assure you he would more than likely move on down the road to the next target. This might not be immediate but give the newspapers a chance to run stories on 1 or 2 thugs gunned down and the tides would shift.
Hope I conveyed my opinion clearly.
edit* I fully agree with the "element of surprise" and the "no negatives to CCW" comments. Just sharing and alternative view.
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 04:25
Why on earth would one want to open carry other than in a rural area and drum up all the concern from the Gun Grabbers who see you. It just fuels their fire, and gives up one of the biggest elements of tactical warfare..."The element of Surprise".
Better to CCW IMHO, and there are NO disadvantages to CCW.
+1. Open carry just attracts unwanted attention from the sheep and it gives away what tactical advantage you have by letting the bad guy know who to kill first if things go bad. Overall a stupid idea.
pat
I believe it was Ted Nugent who said "Open carry provides no tactical advantage"...
I talked to a Michigan State Trooper who said they had recently gotten a memo about Michigan still being an open carry state. Most LEO's do not even know of this law.
I believe it was Ted Nugent who said "Open carry provides no tactical advantage"...
I talked to a Michigan State Trooper who said they had recently gotten a memo about Michigan still being an open carry state. Most LEO's do not even know of this law.
There may not be a law in Michigan addressing open carry.
For example, Virginia has no open carry law. What has not been made illegal is legal, which is why Virginians can open carry.
In this day and age, much of the American public seems to look at activity from a perspective of whether or not the Government allows it, instead of whether or not the Government has forbidden (with good cause or not) a particular behavior.
What does ABC mean?
Alcoholic Beverage Control. In Virginia, post-1995, if a restaurant serves alcohol for on-premesis consumption, the person eating there has three choices:
1. Disarm
2. Conceal carry (and break the law)
3. Open carry
Faced with those choices, I have open carried in restaurants many times, and it's never led to any issues.
This law change in 1995 has led to an increase in open carry across the state. As a kid in the 1970s, I remember seeing someone open carry once in a while (we had a family friend who always OC'd a 1911), but it was relatively uncommon before the 1995 law change.
I certainly understand the tactical disadvantages of open carrying, and in general I prefer to carry concealed.
However, I won't try to dictate how others should carry (open vs concealed).
John_Wayne777
06-30-08, 09:42
In small numbers I guess I understand where you are coming from with this opinion however I don't agree. In my experience criminals are not willing to endure unnecessary risk to their lives knowingly for what they are about steal/damage etc. ( I understand most of these thugs are a few fries short of a happy meal but read on) Obviously you would assume they understand the inherent risk but in general when met with the smallest amount of resistance (again in my experience) they flee fast.
Indeed, and that's a point often missed in discussion of open carry.
There are advantages and disadvantages to every mode of carry. Open carry is likely to scare away most of the criminal types out there because they'd rather not risk a fight with somebody who can shoot back.
The percentage who aren't scared away by an openly carried firearm, however, are really dangerous sorts of people and the person carrying openly must be switched on at all times to defend against that sort.
Something I posted on another forum just this morning, when someone argued that a criminal could never get the drop on him when he was openly carrying:
Anyone who thinks "vigilance" is an indestructible barrier against predation is just fooling himself. It certainly helps, don't get me wrong! Awareness will get you out of a lot more fights than a pistol. But unless you spend your time exclusively in rural areas away from other people, eventually there will be people who get within arm's length of you. Ever been on line at the grocer, or bank? Ever go to the movies? Ever eat in a restaurant?
As for being a target ID, I think that's a less clear point. On one hand, no one would argue that many criminals will turn around and go home rather than deal with an obviously armed victim. Rob another bank, rape another woman, whatever ... the majority of criminals follow classic predator-prey behavior including prey selection bias towards the weakest victim.
However, open carry also identifies you as a threat and opportunity for those criminals who are willing to take greater risks for greater rewards. To add to EMTCOP's comments, there was a case about five years ago of a Veteran Affairs police officer being attacked on duty in Puerto Rico by a group of thugs who only wanted to steal his Beretta. If a bunch of terrorists decide to shoot up the local mall, who do you think they'll shoot first?
The question becomes, then, whether you think the deterrent factor outweighs the lure of a new gun or identifying yourself as the "first target" that needs to be eliminated.
I will say that I believe open carry becomes more practical and safe if many people are doing it. So if open carry is popular in a community, the community is probably pretty crime free. I'd happily live in a place like that ... and open carry while I was there.
Prisons have miles of video showing convicts practicing disarming techniques. Many violent offenders train much harder at disarming uniformed police than the police train at weapon retention. Assuming you can't be disarmed when carrying open is false bravado. Just a thought.
Something I posted on another forum just this morning, when someone argued that a criminal could never get the drop on him when he was openly carrying:
Anyone who thinks "vigilance" is an indestructible barrier against predation is just fooling himself. It certainly helps, don't get me wrong! Awareness will get you out of a lot more fights than a pistol. But unless you spend your time exclusively in rural areas away from other people, eventually there will be people who get within arm's length of you. Ever been on line at the grocer, or bank? Ever go to the movies? Ever eat in a restaurant?
As for being a target ID, I think that's a less clear point. On one hand, no one would argue that many criminals will turn around and go home rather than deal with an obviously armed victim. Rob another bank, rape another woman, whatever ... the majority of criminals follow classic predator-prey behavior including prey selection bias towards the weakest victim.
However, open carry also identifies you as a threat and opportunity for those criminals who are willing to take greater risks for greater rewards. To add to EMTCOP's comments, there was a case about five years ago of a Veteran Affairs police officer being attacked on duty in Puerto Rico by a group of thugs who only wanted to steal his Beretta. If a bunch of terrorists decide to shoot up the local mall, who do you think they'll shoot first?
The question becomes, then, whether you think the deterrent factor outweighs the lure of a new gun or identifying yourself as the "first target" that needs to be eliminated.
I will say that I believe open carry becomes more practical and safe if many people are doing it. So if open carry is popular in a community, the community is probably pretty crime free. I'd happily live in a place like that ... and open carry while I was there.
I completely agree. This is why I said "in small numbers" referring to my belief the open carrying in small numbers is probably not the best idea. Good write up.
I encourage everyone to do a search on a guy name Tony Blauer. His entire methodology is based on training for the ambush. Has some extremely interesting insight into self defense and self preservation.
Attached is a MP3 link from a young man being stopped by the PD in Willowick Ohio.
http://www.ohioccw.org/files/2008-06-17_14_45_05-0001.mp3
Worth a listen. One of the officers was a little out of line and doesn’t understand the law even though he claims to teach CCW.
"Why do you carry so many weapons?" GOD DAMN, GOD DAMN, dude take a time out and go to church. Try to get in touch with your inner self. Remember God, Country, Family and all that stuff.
Run Silent, Run Deep is how I choose to operate. In today’s world no matter what we believe we need to support our fellow shooters and their rights. United we stand divided we fall. CCW, open carry, hunters, bullseye shooters, trap, skeet, sporting, Hi-Power it doesn’t matter as long as we respect and support anyone who is doing anything lawful with a gun.
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 15:21
Alcoholic Beverage Control. In Virginia, post-1995, if a restaurant serves alcohol for on-premesis consumption, the person eating there has three choices:
1. Disarm
2. Conceal carry (and break the law)
3. Open carry
Faced with those choices, I have open carried in restaurants many times, and it's never led to any issues.
This law change in 1995 has led to an increase in open carry across the state. As a kid in the 1970s, I remember seeing someone open carry once in a while (we had a family friend who always OC'd a 1911), but it was relatively uncommon before the 1995 law change.
I certainly understand the tactical disadvantages of open carrying, and in general I prefer to carry concealed.
However, I won't try to dictate how others should carry (open vs concealed).
Alcohol and guns don't mix I agree with laws forbidding having guns in bars and places that serve alcohol.
Pat
Alcohol and guns don't mix I agree with laws forbidding having guns in bars and places that serve alcohol.
Pat
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. While of course carrying a gun and drinking alcohol don't mix, going into an establishment that serves alcohol while carrying and NOT drinking any alcohol should be just fine. Otherwise you are saying that the temptation to drink at Applebees is just too strong so people that carry must be protected from themselves, and that's the slippery road to the nanny state.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. While of course carrying a gun and drinking alcohol don't mix, going into an establishment that serves alcohol while carrying and NOT drinking any alcohol should be just fine. Otherwise you are saying that the temptation to drink at Applebees is just too strong so people that carry must be protected from themselves, and that's the slippery road to the nanny state.
100% correct. We need LESS laws. What happened to things just being a bad idea? When did we decide that we needed people to make some of these ridiculous laws to tell us what was right/wrong smart/stupid?
IMO, you have the RIGHT to do whatever you want... so do I. Society can manage itself better than we are given credit for. You want to rob me? Sure you have the right to try, but I have the right to split you in half for doing so.
The reality is law abiding citizens are the ones handcuffed by all these laws. Of course we abide by them because we are law abiding citizens. Guess who doesn't? Guess who gets out of jail in less than 24 hours for repeated offenses? Guess who goes on doing what they do regardless of how many rules and laws are created? And finally, guess who is the real ones that get screwed? US!!!!
/rant over :)
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 16:37
We do need laws to tell people what is right and wrong because most can't seem to figure it out on there own. I have been a cop for a little more than 8 years now and over 90% of the calls I have delt with are alcohol related. Alcohol makes good people do some really stupid things.
Pat
Alcohol and guns don't mix I agree with laws forbidding having guns in bars and places that serve alcohol.
Pat
That's the phase that the Brady Bunch has been spouting here in Virginia to push their agenda. It's vague enough to imply drinking while armed, though I don't know anyone who would do that.
Our anti-gun Governor also uses that phrase to push his agenda, and that's why I can't carry concealed when I take my family to Outback or Applebee's or Pizza Hut - I have to open carry.
Frankly I'm surprised to see someone on a firearms forum opposed to carrying for self-defense. Catch phrases from the anti-gunners aside, why do you feel I should have to disarm to take my family out to dinner?
Mark
We do need laws to tell people what is right and wrong because most can't seem to figure it out on there own. I have been a cop for a little more than 8 years now and over 90% of the calls I have delt with are alcohol related. Alcohol makes good people do some really stupid things.
Pat
That's entirely believable, but I don't see why it leads to supporting the current law in Virginia wherein one can carry OPENLY in a bar, but not concealed. If I want to go eat at Crapplebees or pretty much any restaurant (because almost all of them serve some kind of alcohol) and not drink, I can't carry concealed. I can carry openly, though, amongst all the drunks. Do you see any potential problems there?
Virginia has a separate code section already that makes carrying a firearm (openly or concealed) under the influence a crime. That law makes sense. The "restaurant and bar ban" on concealed carry does not.
We do need laws to tell people what is right and wrong because most can't seem to figure it out on there own. I have been a cop for a little more than 8 years now and over 90% of the calls I have delt with are alcohol related. Alcohol makes good people do some really stupid things.
Pat
No arguments here concerning alcohol and bad decisions.
I believe one of the reasons why people can't figure out right from wrong is the fact that we have sloughed that responsibility off for generations on the government. Parents no longer feel that its their responsibility to teach their children things. They believe its the school's job or local law enforcement. Neither do they punish their children. Again believe that it's law enforcements responsibility to come over and deal with their misbehaving children.
When you take away the need to feel responsibility you rob people of their liberty. It has been a perpetual cycle that isn't getting any better.
Alcohol makes good people do some really stupid things.
Quite true.
That is part of the reason why the bill in Virginia overturning the reataurant CC ban had a provision specifying that those carrying could not drink alsohol while carrying. I don't know of anyone who disagreed with that provision.
Still, our anti-gun Governor, never one to allow good syntax to stand in the way of politics, vetoed the bill, staing "Guns and alcohol don't mix."
Odd that an anti-gun Governor would provide such a back-handed endorsement of open carry.
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 17:30
That's the phase that the Brady Bunch has been spouting here in Virginia to push their agenda. It's vague enough to imply drinking while armed, though I don't know anyone who would do that.
Our anti-gun Governor also uses that phrase to push his agenda, and that's why I can't carry concealed when I take my family to Outback or Applebee's or Pizza Hut - I have to open carry.
Frankly I'm surprised to see someone on a firearms forum opposed to carrying for self-defense. Catch phrases from the anti-gunners aside, why do you feel I should have to disarm to take my family out to dinner?
Mark
Slow down Mark and don't put words in my mouth. I never said I was against carrying for self defense. I am against carrying and drinking. I could have put words in your mouth by saying you are for drinking and carrying a weapon. Lets not trying to jump to conclusions here you know are false just to incite anger.
I am all for your right to carry a weapon just don't do it when you go to a bar to have a few cold ones.
Pat
Slow down Mark and don't put words in my mouth. I never said I was against carrying for self defense. I am against carrying and drinking. I could have put words in your mouth by saying you are for drinking and carrying a weapon. Lets not trying to jump to conclusions here you know are false just to incite anger.
I am all for your right to carry a weapon just don't do it when you go to a bar to have a few cold ones.
Pat
Ah, well then I agree with you. That wasn't made clear or else I didn't infer correctly from your previous post.
I agree IF you are drinking you have no reason to have a weapon on you. ;)
Slow down Mark and don't put words in my mouth. I never said I was against carrying for self defense. I am against carrying and drinking. I could have put words in your mouth by saying you are for drinking and carrying a weapon. Lets not trying to jump to conclusions here you know are false just to incite anger.
I am all for your right to carry a weapon just don't do it when you go to a bar to have a few cold ones.
Pat
Again, I'm not as concerned about a ban on carrying in a alcohol only bar (however i do occasionally go to a sports bar for wings and such but I don't drink) as I am about bans on carry in a restaurant that happens to serve alcohol. I go to restaurants to eat with my family not to drink, just because there is alcohol served there (THAT I AM NOT PARTAKING OF) should not impair my ability to protect myself and my family with my CCW. And no offense intended, but if you keep arguing that this has anything to do with drinking and carrying you are being intentionally obtuse.
Alcohol and guns don't mix I agree with laws forbidding having guns in bars and places that serve alcohol.
Pat
Pat, out of curiosity do you agree with the above statement or do you disagree with the carry of firearms while drinking while being able to carry in an alcohol serving establishment while not drinking? Not trying to be an ass just curious.
Slow down Mark and don't put words in my mouth. I never said I was against carrying for self defense. I am against carrying and drinking. I could have put words in your mouth by saying you are for drinking and carrying a weapon. Lets not trying to jump to conclusions here you know are false just to incite anger.
I am all for your right to carry a weapon just don't do it when you go to a bar to have a few cold ones.
In that case, we seem to be in agreement.
Alcohol and guns don't mix I agree with laws forbidding having guns in bars and places that serve alcohol.
That was your original quote, which would mean you would wish my family and I disarm to eat out anywhere but a fast food place.
I'm glad you re-stated your position to one of opposition to drinking while armed. I think we'll all agree that's a bad combination.
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 18:04
Pat, out of curiosity do you agree with the above statement or do you disagree with the carry of firearms while drinking while being able to carry in an alcohol serving establishment while not drinking? Not trying to be an ass just curious.
Its too hard to enforce rather you are drinking or not. They need to make the law state no carrying in establishments that serve alcohol. The resturants should also be required to set up a non alcoholic area so you can carry your weapon and not violate the law. Resturants are where the problems occur in making these laws because its common for people to go to a resturant and not drink alcohol. But with Bars that is not the norm. 99% of people who go to bars do so to drink.
Its like the DUI laws. We have a limit of .08 everyone knows this when they drive to the bar yet many still drive home over the limit. They don't use common sense.
Pat
So by your logic we should also ban parking lots at restaurants and bars as they serve alcohol and someone might drive. I feel that there are too many laws that punish me for the lowest common denominators actions. I have gone to bars many times for lunch as have many of my coworkers without drinking. Bar and grills have better food sometimes than the fast food choices. I think laws should only punish you for actions you HAVE committed. Not restrict you for actions you might take.
I can't carry anyways as I live in Illinois:rolleyes: .
Its too hard to enforce rather you are drinking or not. They need to make the law state no carrying in establishments that serve alcohol. The resturants should also be required to set up a non alcoholic area so you can carry your weapon and not violate the law. Resturants are where the problems occur in making these laws because its common for people to go to a resturant and not drink alcohol. But with Bars that is not the norm. 99% of people who go to bars do so to drink.
Its like the DUI laws. We have a limit of .08 everyone knows this when they drive to the bar yet many still drive home over the limit. They don't use common sense.
Pat
Ok as I said, I'll roll with a law that bans carry in a bar only type liqour establishment, I still don't necessarily like it as I think people should be responsible for their own actions instead of having their behavior mandated but I understand your point of view as well. However, the laws banning carry in a restaurant that also has a full liquor license when their primary business is serving food, such as Applebees/etc. or any non-chain full service restaurant, are insulting and should be repealed. Seriously, in AZ technically I couldn't even carry in the fast food line at Chipotle since they do sell beer, it's ridiculous.
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 18:53
So by your logic we should also ban parking lots at restaurants and bars as they serve alcohol and someone might drive. I feel that there are too many laws that punish me for the lowest common denominators actions. I have gone to bars many times for lunch as have many of my coworkers without drinking. Bar and grills have better food sometimes than the fast food choices. I think laws should only punish you for actions you HAVE committed. Not restrict you for actions you might take.
I can't carry anyways as I live in Illinois:rolleyes: .
So you are not for prevention just for dealing with stuff after the worst has already happened and people are dead.
Pat
Its too hard to enforce rather you are drinking or not. They need to make the law state no carrying in establishments that serve alcohol. The resturants should also be required to set up a non alcoholic area so you can carry your weapon and not violate the law. Resturants are where the problems occur in making these laws because its common for people to go to a resturant and not drink alcohol. But with Bars that is not the norm. 99% of people who go to bars do so to drink.
Its like the DUI laws. We have a limit of .08 everyone knows this when they drive to the bar yet many still drive home over the limit. They don't use common sense.
Wow. I thought we were in agreement, but it seems you're back to your first position.
I must say I am surprised to see someone claiming to be an NRA member staking out the same political ground and using the same catch phrases that the anti-gunners are using here in Virginia, and not trusting gun owners to take their families to dinner. I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Alpha Sierra
06-30-08, 19:18
We do need laws to tell people what is right and wrong because most can't seem to figure it out on there own. I have been a cop for a little more than 8 years now and over 90% of the calls I have delt with are alcohol related. Alcohol makes good people do some really stupid things.
Pat
How long you've been a cop is irrelevant.
It is illegal in ALL 50 states to carry or discharge a firearm while intoxicated. Most states see that as enough and do not place restrictions (or very few) on carrying where alcohol is served.
So you are in a minority. And in the wrong.
We are fighting that stupid mentality here in Ohio. But make no mistake, we WILL force the legislature to allow responsible citizens to carry firearms in places that serve alcohol.
So you are not for prevention just for dealing with stuff after the worst has already happened and people are dead.
Pat
Weeellllll lets explore something for a moment. Taking the position of allowing people to carry in bars. Joe's bar down on the corner has a shoot out due to drunk firearm handling. If that's the sort of people that hang out down at joe's bar, I assure I will not be placing myself or my loved ones anywhere that establishment. Society will sift that stuff out naturally. IMO.
What about the old west where the bar tender took the cowboys gun's as they walked into the bar? That might work? :p :confused: :cool:
Alcohol and guns don't mix I agree with laws forbidding having guns in bars and places that serve alcohol.
I don't drink. Please try again.
Should cars be allowed in the parking lots of places that serve alcohol?
So you are not for prevention just for dealing with stuff after the worst has already happened and people are dead.
Pat
No you mistook what I am saying. I have no problems with drunk driving checkpoints that are done in a legal manner. I have no problem with screening at airports. I have no problem with a minimal visual aquity to receive a drivers lisence. I have no problem with a background check for a CCW permit.
I have a problem with elitists that say because someone might do something wrong none of us can do it right. There are laws on the books that already state that you cant carry intoxicated. IF you can't follow that law what makes me think you will follow another law that says you cant carry in a alcohol serving establishment?I will because it's the law. Will the felon who is carrying illegally and drunk do the same?
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 20:13
The main point of contention between are two views seems to be over resturants that serve alcohol. I admit this is a problem area. I would like to see these establishments be required to set up a non alcohol section where you could carry your concealed weapon and where minors would be allowed to eat. I do not think anyone should be allowed to carry a weapon where alcohol is served.
We may disagree on this topic but that does not make me anti gun or an elitists. I have seen way too many alcohol related crimes and deaths to think this is a good idea. So now if people could dispense with the labeling and just discuss the facts of the issue.
I am all for the right to carry but I am very much against the use of alcohol while caring. In fact if the banned alcohol again I would not lose one night of sleep over it. The stuff is causing a lot of problems in our society but that is another topic.
Pat
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 20:16
I don't drink. Please try again.
Should cars be allowed in the parking lots of places that serve alcohol?
If it were up to me we would have a 0 tolerance DUI law not the current .08 level. Then people would know if they drink they can't drive. A lot of DUI offenders did not honestly know they were over the limit. If you make the law more clear no one will have that problem. I know most on here are not going to share my view on this topic so I will let it drop. I lost a brother to alcohol. (he got drunk and drove and ended up killing himself) and I have seen three police officers lose their jobs due to alcohol problems, I have no tolerance for the miss use of alcohol and pretty much all alcohol use leads to miss use and abuse but again that is another topic.
Pat
I have seen way too many alcohol related crimes and deaths to think this is a good idea.
Then advocate the prohibition of alcohol. In the meantime, please don't punish those of us who do nothing wrong simply because it's hard for you to tell the difference.
The main point of contention between are two views seems to be over resturants that serve alcohol. I admit this is a problem area. I would like to see these establishments be required to set up a non alcohol section where you could carry your concealed weapon and where minors would be allowed to eat. I do not think anyone should be allowed to carry a weapon where alcohol is served.
We may disagree on this topic but that does not make me anti gun or an elitists. I have seen way too many alcohol related crimes and deaths to think this is a good idea. So now if people could dispense with the labeling and just discuss the facts of the issue.
I am all for the right to carry but I am very much against the use of alcohol while caring. In fact if the banned alcohol again I would not lose one night of sleep over it. The stuff is causing a lot of problems in our society but that is another topic.
Pat
I guess my contention is the need for MORE laws. I refer to my post
100% correct. We need LESS laws. What happened to things just being a bad idea? When did we decide that we needed people to make some of these ridiculous laws to tell us what was right/wrong smart/stupid?
IMO, you have the RIGHT to do whatever you want... so do I. Society can manage itself better than we are given credit for. You want to rob me? Sure you have the right to try, but I have the right to split you in half for doing so.
The reality is law abiding citizens are the ones handcuffed by all these laws. Of course we abide by them because we are law abiding citizens. Guess who doesn't? Guess who gets out of jail in less than 24 hours for repeated offenses? Guess who goes on doing what they do regardless of how many rules and laws are created? And finally, guess who is the real ones that get screwed? US!!!!
/rant over :)
AND my quote
Weeellllll lets explore something for a moment. Taking the position of allowing people to carry in bars. Joe's bar down on the corner has a shoot out due to drunk firearm handling. If that's the sort of people that hang out down at joe's bar, I assure I will not be placing myself or my loved ones anywhere that establishment. Society will sift that stuff out naturally. IMO.
What about the old west where the bar tender took the cowboys gun's as they walked into the bar? That might work? :p :confused: :cool:
Humans, at one time, didn't need laws like this. It was simply accepted knowledge that you don't go causing trouble because you might get shot. Sure there were bad guys but this general fear that people have today was just non existent.
Refer to my post here
No arguments here concerning alcohol and bad decisions.
I believe one of the reasons why people can't figure out right from wrong is the fact that we have sloughed that responsibility off for generations on the government. Parents no longer feel that its their responsibility to teach their children things. They believe its the school's job or local law enforcement. Neither do they punish their children. Again believe that it's law enforcements responsibility to come over and deal with their misbehaving children.
When you take away the need to feel responsibility you rob people of their liberty. It has been a perpetual cycle that isn't getting any better.
We have too long put the blame and responsibility on the shoulders of the government for our own actions and protection. Humans need to take back humanity. You ever ask yourself on a call "why didn't they just slap him and leave me out of it?"
Of course all of this is a pipe dream. But hey, it's America. It's legal to dream.... for now. :cool:
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 20:22
Then advocate the prohibition of alcohol. In the meantime, please don't punish those of us who do nothing wrong simply because it's hard for you to tell the difference.
Todd I am not punishing anyone. I simply enforce the laws I am charged with enforcing. I do have a right however to share my opinion and that is what I was doing. I do not enforce my own personal moral codes when I am working I don't get paid for that.
Take care and lets just agree to disagree. I don't want any problems with anyone here on m4carbine. This is a great discussion board.
Pat
Seems ironic that many bars check ID to not let the youngsters in since they serve alcohol but you can take your little kids and teenagers to any chain restaurant that serves alcohol (Outback, Appleby's, etc.) and walk right in.
Maybe states that ban CCW in businesses that serve alcohol should also prohibit juvenilles because they might get served?
Alaskapopo
06-30-08, 20:32
Seems ironic that many bars check ID to not let the youngsters in since they serve alcohol but you can take your little kids and teenagers to any chain restaurant that serves alcohol (Outback, Appleby's, etc.) and walk right in.
Maybe states that ban CCW in businesses that serve alcohol should also prohibit juvenilles because they might get served?
Sounds like a good idea or a better idea would be to not hand out near as many liquor licenses so only bars and certain high class resturants could serve alcohol.
Pat
The main point of contention between are two views seems to be over resturants that serve alcohol. I admit this is a problem area. I would like to see these establishments be required to set up a non alcohol section where you could carry your concealed weapon and where minors would be allowed to eat. I do not think anyone should be allowed to carry a weapon where alcohol is served.
We may disagree on this topic but that does not make me anti gun or an elitists. I have seen way too many alcohol related crimes and deaths to think this is a good idea. So now if people could dispense with the labeling and just discuss the facts of the issue.
I am all for the right to carry but I am very much against the use of alcohol while caring. In fact if the banned alcohol again I would not lose one night of sleep over it. The stuff is causing a lot of problems in our society but that is another topic.
Pat
So you think business should bear the cross of others misbehavior? Ill ask again will the drunk felon who I might need to protect myself follow the law that I will?
Are willing to bet my life on it.
I am firmly against drinking while driving,carrying etc.
I don't drink. Please try again.
Should cars be allowed in the parking lots of places that serve alcohol?
Valid point. I think open carry in a bar can cause more issues than it solves (ex: some drunk clown bowing up over the fact you have a gun), but am a fan of concealed carry cause you never know what type of stupidity is waiting outside.
Heavy Metal
06-30-08, 20:49
I do not think anyone should be allowed to carry a weapon where alcohol is served.
Pat
Does this prohibition extend to any law enforcement officer patronizing one of these establishments while under arms as well?
Jay Cunningham
06-30-08, 20:51
Mods if you want to lock this thread then go ahead. It's gotten off course. :(
:) :) :)
Jay Cunningham
07-02-08, 16:23
After I received several requests to continue conversation on the topic of open carry and also carry of any kind in bars or restaurants that serve alcohol, I asked the OP if he would approve of re-opening the thread, which he did.
Please continue in a civilized fashion.
Carry on.
Even though "open carry" is supposedly legal in NE, try and do it in the city of Omaha and you will be informed that you need a city permit. If you have the city permit, do it not in a uniform of some type and enjoy the conversation with OPD.
Listening to that audio clip makes me think that instead of having to do sexual harassment training, some law enforcement officers need classes on state and federal constitutional law.:mad:
So you think business should bear the cross of others misbehavior? Ill ask again will the drunk felon who I might need to protect myself follow the law that I will?
Are willing to bet my life on it.
I am firmly against drinking while driving,carrying etc.
Ill wait.
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 17:04
Does this prohibition extend to any law enforcement officer patronizing one of these establishments while under arms as well?
Unless the officers is doing a bar check or working in an undercover capacity he or she should also not be armed while in a drinking establishment in my opinion. Most departments have this in their policy and procedure manual anyway.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 17:08
So you think business should bear the cross of others misbehavior? Ill ask again will the drunk felon who I might need to protect myself follow the law that I will?
Are willing to bet my life on it.
I am firmly against drinking while driving,carrying etc.
To a degree yes. Bars should and are held responsible (criminally and civily) for serving people to excess.
Pat
To a degree yes. Bars should and are held responsible (criminally and civily) for serving people to excess.
Pat
Why do you feel it necessary to pass the personal responsibility of the patron controlling the amount he/she drinks onto the business?
I don't believe that "legally" a bar should be responsible for this... Morally perhaps...
McDonalds contributes to millions of people's heart and obesity issues... Should be holding them legally responsible? It's not like everyone DOESN'T know the dangers of excessive alcohol or McDonalds.
People need to be taking responsibility for their own actions more, not less.
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 17:27
Why do you feel it necessary to pass the personal responsibility of the patron controlling the amount he/she drinks onto the business?
I don't believe that "legally" a bar should be responsible for this... Morally perhaps...
McDonalds contributes to millions of people's heart and obesity issues... Should be holding them legally responsible? It's not like everyone DOESN'T know the dangers of excessive alcohol or McDonalds.
People need to be taking responsibility for their own actions more, not less.
Bars are legally responsible for allowing customers to drink to excess in most states and its a good law. As soon as the customer has one drink their judgment is affected the more they drink the more their judgment diminishes. The bar tender on the other hand should be sober and should be able to see when someone has had too much. The patrol should be accountable for his actions but the bar must also be accountable for their actions. Which would be service someone they should not have served.
Pat
What about the felon not following the law. I am a responsible mostly law abiding citizen and just dissagree that others should have their right to self defense abridged due to the what the lowest common denominator might do.
Should a restaurant have to alter their floor plan to accommodate CCW. Thats almost as bad as open carry imho. Lets group the sheepdogs together to better deal with them quick.
Bars should be held responsible in the instance you mention.i have no problem with that. Let a stumbling drunk out the door without verifing a safe way home is morally as well as probably civilly wrong and should not be tolerated. I hate drunk drivers and enablers of drunk drivers.. My point of contention is that you assume most or at least a good portion,of CCW permit holders cant carry and be around alcohol without drinking.
When I drink (almost never) I lock up everything in the safe even though I never get drunk. I would venture to guess most CCW permit holders are far from the lowest common denominator.
Pat you never answered my question concerning those who don't follow laws.How do I protect my family and myself from the law breaking angry drunk/thug robber etc. if i am disarmed. To go to an alcohol serving restaurant should i give up my right to self defense from those who who would do me harm.
A better idea to me would be to stiffen penalties for alcohol/drug offenses that also involve a firearm being used. This punishes the bad guys without tying the hands of the good guys. Just a quick thought.
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 17:38
What about the felon not following the law. I am a responsible mostly law abiding citizen and just dissagree that others should have their right to self defense abridged due to the what the lowest common denominator might do.
Should a restaurant have to alter their floor plan to accommodate CCW. Thats almost as bad as open carry imho. Lets group the sheepdogs together to better deal with them quick.
Bars should be held responsible in the instance you mention.i have no problem with that. Let a stumbling drunk out the door without verifing a safe way home is morally as well as probably civilly wrong and should not be tolerated. I hate drunk drivers and enablers of drunk drivers.. My point of contention is that you assume most or at least a good portion,of CCW permit holders cant carry and be around alcohol without drinking.
When I drink (almost never) I lock up everything in the safe even though I never get drunk. I would venture to guess most CCW permit holders are far from the lowest common denominator.
Pat you never answered my question concerning those who don't follow laws.How do I protect my family and myself from the law breaking angry drunk/thug robber etc. if i am disarmed. To go to an alcohol serving restaurant should i give up my right to self defense from those who who would do me harm.
A better idea to me would be to stiffen penalties for alcohol/drug offenses that also involve a firearm being used. This punishes the bad guys without tying the hands of the good guys. Just a quick thought.
I would say the great majority of people who consume alcohol will do so when around alcohol regardless of rather they are carrying a weapon or not. I am firm on this I have seen too much crap happen at bars where if guns would have been involved it would have been a lot more serious. Take the same people when they are sober and they are good folks.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 17:40
Pat you never answered my question concerning those who don't follow laws.How do I protect my family and myself from the law breaking angry drunk/thug robber etc. if i am disarmed. To go to an alcohol serving restaurant should i give up my right to self defense from those who who would do me harm.
If you want to drink you take the risks that come with disarming yourself. That is my stand on the matter. You don't have to give up your right to self defense just don't drink. Its similar to driving. You can drive and you can drink just don't mix the two.
Pat
I would say the great majority of people who consume alcohol will do so when around alcohol regardless of rather they are carrying a weapon or not. I am firm on this I have seen too much crap happen at bars where if guns would have been involved it would have been a lot more serious. Take the same people when they are sober and they are good folks.
Pat
Pat I appreciate your sticking with this i havent had a good discussion in a while.:)
While we disagree we can do it like adults. Thanks sincerely.
I still want to know about my right to self defense while NOT drinking from those who break the law.
I guess I hold my fellow CCW permit holders in a little higher regard than you. I am not a cop so I could see where you could become callused.
Bars are legally responsible for allowing customers to drink to excess in most states and its a good law. As soon as the customer has one drink their judgment is affected the more they drink the more their judgment diminishes. The bar tender on the other hand should be sober and should be able to see when someone has had too much. The patrol should be accountable for his actions but the bar must also be accountable for their actions. Which would be service someone they should not have served.
Pat
By this reasoning, the guy who is DUI, is innocent. I mean it's not his fault.. He had a drink which impaired his judgment. He wouldn't have soberly decided to drive drunk right?
See my issue with this line of thinking?
John_Wayne777
07-02-08, 18:38
I would say the great majority of people who consume alcohol will do so when around alcohol regardless of rather they are carrying a weapon or not. I am firm on this I have seen too much crap happen at bars where if guns would have been involved it would have been a lot more serious. Take the same people when they are sober and they are good folks.
Pat
I'm not sure what department you are with in Alaska, but if it's the one I suspect I've heard lots of horror stories about how much people drink up there and how drunk they get....
Thus I can sympathize somewhat with your point of view.
Still, the sorts of people who get themselves hammered and end up being the kinds of folks you have to arrest don't generally get permits to carry a concealed weapon.
I'm a tee-totaler myself. On more than one occasion I've been the designated driver AND the designated pistol carrier while others indulged. On one occasion it was even with an Alaskan LEO and a Chicago PD LEO after a day of handgun training at Blackwater.
After I received several requests to continue conversation on the topic of open carry and also carry of any kind in bars or restaurants that serve alcohol, I asked the OP if he would approve of re-opening the thread, which he did.
Please continue in a civilized fashion.
Carry on.
btw. That's good moderating. :cool:
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 19:22
By this reasoning, the guy who is DUI, is innocent. I mean it's not his fault.. He had a drink which impaired his judgment. He wouldn't have soberly decided to drive drunk right?
See my issue with this line of thinking?
No he is guilty of DUI but if the bar continued to serve him after he was clearly intoxicated they are also guilty of serving intoxicated persons on licenses premisis.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 19:23
Pat I appreciate your sticking with this i havent had a good discussion in a while.:)
While we disagree we can do it like adults. Thanks sincerely.
I still want to know about my right to self defense while NOT drinking from those who break the law.
I guess I hold my fellow CCW permit holders in a little higher regard than you. I am not a cop so I could see where you could become callused.
I have said it as clear as I can if you go to a place that serves alcohol you give up your right to use a gun to defend yourself while on that property. I have no problem with that. We will have to agree to disagree.
Pat
No he is guilty of DUI but if the bar continued to serve him after he was clearly intoxicated they are also guilty of serving intoxicated persons on licenses premisis.
Pat
I think you missed the point of my post.
I have said it as clear as I can if you go to a place that serves alcohol you give up your right to use a gun to defend yourself while on that property. I have no problem with that. We will have to agree to disagree.
Pat
the problem I have with your reasoning is you are using what is essentially a privilege....one that may not even be exercised....to trump a right, in the interest of preventing a crime that may never occur
to be clearer, comsuming alcohol is a privilege regulated by the Government....they are allowed rational basis in their regulation of this right....there is an inordinate amount of case law that now recognizes that consuming drugs like alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, et.al. are not a "natural rights" recognized by the Constitution or the Bill of Rights....it is a privilege that the government can control and regulate so long as there is a rational basis for doing so...
the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, however, as was so eloquently and recently pointed out by Scalia, IS a natural right, not granted by the Constitution, but guaranteed by it...and although Heller did not define the level of scrutiny for restricting this right it did pretty much reject rational basis review....which only leaves intermediate (which is only generally applied for gender discrimination) and strict scrutiny (the level of scrutiny given the other natural rights the Constitution guarantees)....you therefore cannot arbitrarily and in a capricious nature restrict this right.....restricting it because you "might" do something is exactly that....
saying that you cannot drink while consuming alcohol...that is specifically tailored to meet a compelling government interest, and almost certainly will meet the strict scrutiny by which laws are reviewed...
saying you cannot drink while simply in proximity with alcohol, because you "might" drink? Nope, sorry, but I don't think that passes muster
to draw a corrollary....you cannot place an outright ban on talking in theaters because someone might yell fire....but you can tell them they cannot yell fire...
i am also curious, alaskapopo...you said you have seen a number of alcohol related crime and death....
how many of those involved someone legally carrying a firearm (i am sorry, but I am unfamiliar with Alaska CCW laws) who then became inebriated and used it illegally? (your typical, sober guy with gun walks into bar, walks out drunk and starts shooting stuff up)
I am not generally a betting man, but if I were I would place a significantly large wager that the majority, if not all, of the alcohol related crime you have seen involves:
1) Vehicles first and foremost
2) Simple and Aggravated Battery
3) Domestic Violence and disturbance
and, again, just playing my hypothetical here, I would bet of the grand majority of 2) and 3) you rarely if ever see firearms at 2) and encounter them most frequently in 3) because the person is already home, drunk, angry, and the guns are right there....
just curious....
Jay Cunningham
07-02-08, 20:04
What if you are sitting in your living room halfway through a bottle of scotch and some booger-eater kicks your door in. Do you give up your right to self-defense because you are legally drunk?
I have said it as clear as I can if you go to a place that serves alcohol you give up your right to use a gun to defend yourself while on that property. I have no problem with that. We will have to agree to disagree.
Pat
I think you are very wrong but will accept your agree to disagree in honor of the venue. Thanks for the chat.
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 20:47
What if you are sitting in your living room halfway through a bottle of scotch and some booger-eater kicks your door in. Do you give up your right to self-defense because you are legally drunk?
Your home is your sanctuary. Laws that govern people in public are usually to not apply in the home. Personally I don't drink but if I did I would have the guns locked up if I decided to open a bottle of booze.
Pat
Jay Cunningham
07-02-08, 20:51
Your home is your sanctuary. Laws that govern people in public are usually to not apply in the home. Personally I don't drink but if I did I would have the guns locked up if I decided to open a bottle of booze.
Pat
What if you are halfway through a bottle of scotch and you hear a noise and you look outside and you see across the street a woman being assaulted by 3 young men?
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 20:56
1) Vehicles first and foremost
2) Simple and Aggravated Battery
3) Domestic Violence and disturbance
and, again, just playing my hypothetical here, I would bet of the grand majority of 2) and 3) you rarely if ever see firearms at 2) and encounter them most frequently in 3) because the person is already home, drunk, angry, and the guns are right there....
just curious....
You missed my point I said that if guns had been involved in some of the stupid crap that goes on in bars (fights assaults ect) there would have been a lot more deaths and more serious injuries.
You are wrong on your assessment of what I have seen. I am a local cop and have been most of my career. If I were a Trooper assigned to a rural road post perhaps vehicle incidents would be the 1 but they are not for me.
The national average for crime is 90% of it is drug or alcohol related. So its not just me. The first place I worked was Bethel Alaska. Bethel had the 3rd highest call volume per officer in the state. I have dealt with everything from petty theft to homicide. Alaska has one of the highest rates of sexual assault in the country. So I have also worked a lot more sex crimes than I care to remember. I also worked in WAANT (state task force dealing with illegal drug and alcohol sales)
I am not listing these facts about my background to impress you rather just to let you know your assumption regarding my experience was dead wrong.
Fortunately I now work in a road system police department that is not nearly as busy and I actually have free time to enjoy myself.
Pat
What if you are halfway through a bottle of scotch and you hear a noise and you look outside and you see across the street a woman being assaulted by 3 young men?
PREDICTION: His answer will be you should call 911....and not get your gun and intervene.
I too appreciate the conversation, but I am also finished...I don't think this will succeed in accomplishing anything...Good luck and stay safe!
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 21:00
What if you are halfway through a bottle of scotch and you hear a noise and you look outside and you see across the street a woman being assaulted by 3 young men?
With all due respect you can what if anything. I don't drink so I tend not to think about such unlikely events happening at the same time. Also if you are drinking what you see as three men assaulting a woman may just be some friends walking down the street. Alcohol warps the senses. I have dealt with drunks who swore they saw something they could not have seen. Also suppose your sense are not wrong and it is indeed an assault in progress do you trust your skills with a firearm when you are tanked on scotch. I wouldn't if I were you.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 21:01
PREDICTION: His answer will be you should call 911....and not get your gun and intervene.
I too appreciate the conversation, but I am also finished...I don't think this will succeed in accomplishing anything...Good luck and stay safe!
That is a good answer. There is not much you could accomplish impaired that the police could not do better. The best thing you could do is yell out the window that you are calling the cops. Most criminals will scatter in that case.
Pat
You missed my point I said that if guns had been involved in some of the stupid crap that goes on in bars (fights assaults ect) there would have been a lot more deaths and more serious injuries.
You are wrong on your assessment of what I have seen. I am a local cop and have been most of my career. If I were a Trooper assigned to a rural road post perhaps vehicle incidents would be the 1 but they are not for me.
The national average for crime is 90% of it is drug or alcohol related. So its not just me. The first place I worked was Bethel Alaska. Bethel had the 3rd highest call volume per officer in the state. I have dealt with everything from petty theft to homicide. Alaska has one of the highest rates of sexual assault in the country. So I have also worked a lot more sex crimes than I care to remember. I also worked in WAANT (state task force dealing with illegal drug and alcohol sales)
I am not listing these facts about my background to impress you rather just to let you know your assumption regarding my experience was dead wrong.
Fortunately I now work in a road system police department that is not nearly as busy and I actually have free time to enjoy myself.
Pat
ok, not quite done yet I guess...
I think you also misunderstand me...my assumption was not that all the crime you see was limited to those things, but that the majority of crime you experience where the perpetrator was intoxicated involved one of those things...
I am sure you see a wide range of crimes, and that was why I was asking the question....in the sexual assaults you have seen, how many of them involved use of a firearm by a perpetrator that was drunk?
Homicides? how many of them were the reckless discharge of firearms by people that were under the influence?
that is what I am trying to get at...I am actually asking a question, sorry if that was not clear...
i understand the national crime statistics, although I am a stay at home Dad now, I am a former attorney and former profiler for the Georgia Bureau of Prisons, and what those statistics show is that the vast majority of crimes that involve alcohol fall firstly into those 3 categories.....not to say to exclusion of all others....but there are WAAY more alcohol/vehicle related crime than there is alcohol/(insert other crime) here....i wont argue with you that people do dumb things when they drink, and that is why more crime occurs when drugs or alcohol are involved...
the problem I have is that you presume, and therefore seek to deny a right, based on the fact that you assume someone with a CCW, carrying, entering an establishment that serves alcohol, will thusly drink...
to put it bluntly, I want to know how many times, in your experience as a police officer, that you have encountered that occurrence...
because my argument is this...for every 1 dickhead that CCWs to a place that serves alcohol, drinks, and then uses his gun unlawfully, there are THOUSANDS of people that CCW and don't
and because of the one you seek to deny rights to thousands...
Jay Cunningham
07-02-08, 21:08
With all due respect you can what if anything.
That is correct. On an internet forum you can "what if" anything.
;)
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 21:12
ok, not quite done yet I guess...
I think you also misunderstand me...my assumption was not that all the crime you see was limited to those things, but that the majority of crime you experience where the perpetrator was intoxicated involved one of those things...
I am sure you see a wide range of crimes, and that was why I was asking the question....in the sexual assaults you have seen, how many of them involved use of a firearm by a perpetrator that was drunk?
Homicides? how many of them were the reckless discharge of firearms by people that were under the influence?
that is what I am trying to get at...I am actually asking a question, sorry if that was not clear...
i understand the national crime statistics, although I am a stay at home Dad now, I am a former attorney and profiler for the Georgia Bureau of Prisons, and what those statistics show is that the vast majority of crimes that involve alcohol fall firstly into those 3 categories.....not to say to exclusion of all others....but there are WAAY more alcohol/vehicle related crime than there is alcohol/(insert other crime) here....i wont argue with you that people do dumb things when they drink, and that is why more crime occurs when drugs or alcohol are involved...
the problem I have is that you presume, and therefore seek to deny a right, based on the fact that you assume someone with a CCW, carrying, entering an establishment that serves alcohol, will thusly drink...
to put it bluntly, I want to know how many times, in your experience as a police officer, that you have encountered that occurrence...
because my argument is this...for every 1 dickhead that CCWs to a place that serves alcohol, drinks, and then uses his gun unlawfully, there are THOUSANDS of people that CCW and don't
and because of the one you seek to deny rights to thousands...
Most of my assault cases have not involved a firearm (only about 25% have) in those cases the offender was intoxicated about 90% of the time. Usually it went something like this. Johnny and his buddy get drunk. It gets heated and Johnny points his gun at his buddy or fires a round off at him hitting or missing him depending on the level of intoxication. Usually in these types of crimes alcohol is present in both parties.
I am all for CCW holders. I had a CCW before I was an officer and I wish every honest citizen would get one. But I am firm on the issue of carrying in places where alcohol is consumed. I may be wrong but I can only go by what my personal experience tells me.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-02-08, 21:17
to put it bluntly, I want to know how many times, in your experience as a police officer, that you have encountered that occurrence...
because my argument is this...for every 1 dickhead that CCWs to a place that serves alcohol, drinks, and then uses his gun unlawfully, there are THOUSANDS of people that CCW and don't
and because of the one you seek to deny rights to thousands...
I missed this part of your post. I have not had to arrest anyone in a bar for having a gun. But then again its against the law here so most people don't take them with them.
Pat
I missed this part of your post. I have not had to arrest anyone in a bar for having a gun. But then again its against the law here so most people don't take them with them.
Pat
i gotcha, I don't know Alaska CCW laws, so its hard to know to ask or not ask that question...
I would be interested to see, in the states that allow CCW into bars, how many crime occurences are documented for those people...
Here in VA, where OC is allowed, I would be interested to see the same thing...
my bet is its extremely, EXTREMELY, low...in most states, if not all, to get a CCW you have undergone a criminal background check, etc, etc...which means that, for the most part, if one of these permit holders is then committing a crime when drunk with his gun, its his first crime ever....
i just dont see that happening very often
take care, and stay safe, we not agree here, but i have the utmost respect for you and what you do....I know it isn't easy, and gets very little appreciation....thank you for doing it
Alpha Sierra
07-02-08, 22:02
I have said it as clear as I can if you go to a place that serves alcohol you give up your right to use a gun to defend yourself while on that property. I have no problem with that. We will have to agree to disagree.
Pat
Well lookee here. Alaska law DOES allow people to carry firearms into places that serve alcohol for consumption if the weapon is a concealed handgun and the premises are a restaurant and the weapon carrier is not drinking.
d) In a prosecution under (a)(2) of this section, it is
(1) an affirmative defense that
(A) [Repealed, Sec. 7 ch 62 SLA 2003].
(B) the loaded firearm was a concealed handgun as defined in AS 18.65.790; and
(C) the possession occurred at a place designated as a restaurant for the purposes of AS 04.16.049 and the defendant did not consume intoxicating liquor at the place;
http://www.touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title11/Chapter61/Section220.htm
You do not even know what law you are supposed to enforce.
Alpha Sierra
07-02-08, 22:04
I would say the great majority of people who consume alcohol will do so when around alcohol regardless of rather they are carrying a weapon or not.
I would say that the rest of the US is not like where you live. I would say that you are making shit up too.
Folks -- play nice and deal with one another as professionals or the thread will get closed again.
Alpha Sierra
07-02-08, 22:22
Folks -- play nice and deal with one another as professionals or the thread will get closed again.
Maybe the "professional" from Alaska should KNOW his own state law regarding carrying in restaurants that serve liquor and enforce it as written and not as he thinks it should be.
Correct, you may carry up here in alcohol serving restraunts. Just don't drink and shoot someone, you'll have lots of time to think about it.
However, in my younger days up here I packed a 1911 and a blade in bars. Even had a few drinks. Never shot or stabbed anyone. Then again no one ever tried to rob or cause me harm either...............
I believe I have a right to protect myself anytime anyplace.....Laws suck.... if two drunks want to shoot each other let them have at it....the herd needs reducing anyway might as well be that gene pool.
Besides Alaskapopo, @ 40 below we gotta have some fun.....job security on your part......:D
Alaskapopo
07-03-08, 01:01
Well lookee here. Alaska law DOES allow people to carry firearms into places that serve alcohol for consumption if the weapon is a concealed handgun and the premises are a restaurant and the weapon carrier is not drinking.
d) In a prosecution under (a)(2) of this section, it is
(1) an affirmative defense that
(A) [Repealed, Sec. 7 ch 62 SLA 2003].
(B) the loaded firearm was a concealed handgun as defined in AS 18.65.790; and
(C) the possession occurred at a place designated as a restaurant for the purposes of AS 04.16.049 and the defendant did not consume intoxicating liquor at the place;
http://www.touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title11/Chapter61/Section220.htm
You do not even know what law you are supposed to enforce.
First I only said it was against the law to carry weapons into bars in Alaska. I did not say restaurants. I voiced my opinion on how I think things should be for restaurants but I did not say that was the law. (a little reading comprehension goes a long way before you insult someone)
Second while we are on the topic do you understand what an affirmative defense is? You can only use it after you have been charged. Your defense attorney argues it to the court. You still go to jail until its sorted out. Also read this part again ( the possession occurred at a place designated as a restaurant) Bars are not included just restaurants.
As for implying I am a liar you can kiss my ass. I am a member of the leo forum on M4carbine.net and I had to send in a copy of my credentials. If you doubt I am who I say I am you can ask the mods.
Sorry to the mods for getting a little hot at this poster but he took it out of bounds when he implied I quote "make shit up". He can disagree with me all he wants but I will not stand for an attack on my integrity. To the rest of you thank you for acting like professional adults.
By the way here is the law. Misconduct involving weapons in the fifth degree (from the 2008 statute book)
AS 11.61.220 (B) (2)
Knowingly possesses a loaded firearm on the person in any place where intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption on the premises:
Next time you quote the law quote all of it. So I could arrest you for having your gun in a place that serves alcohol. You would have to prove in court (affirmative defense look it up) that 1 the place was a restaurant and 2 that you did not consume any alcohol.
Ok rant mode off. I will say that people like Alpha Sierra are a not the norm on this forum. Most of the posters are professional and fun to debate with.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-03-08, 01:24
I missed this part of your post. I have not had to arrest anyone in a bar for having a gun. But then again its against the law here so most people don't take them with them.
Pat
Just so you can read it again Alpha Sierra this is what I posted. Do you see the word restaurant any where in my post.
Ok guys I really am done now.
Pat
Here is the problem,
A lot of places that serve food, also serve alcohol. So prohibitions against carrying a gun where alcohol is served mean that you must leave your gun in your car or at home if you want to follow the law and are going to these places. Since a lot of crime takes place in parking lots--everything from mugging to car burglaries. Therefore I don't like the idea of leaving a gun in a car if I go someplace to eat.
Having said all of tha, I don't believe that you should drink alcohol at all if you are carrying a gun, nor should you go to a bar, even if you are not planning to drink alcohol, because there tend to be more fights in bars and people who are prone to fighting who congregate in bars. How often are police called to fights in museum vs. bars?
Here is the problem,
A lot of places that serve food, also serve alcohol...
That's the problem we have here in Virginia. All the restaurants serve alcohol so I can't even take my family out to dinner and still be protected. And the pisser is, for me, I don't like to drink! I should be able to protect myself and my family when we're out for a nice evening together regardless if the place serves alcohol or not.
Oh well, what they don't know won't hurt them ;)
Jay Cunningham
07-03-08, 06:48
Oh well, what they don't know won't hurt them ;)
And there you have it - words to live by.
And there you have it - words to live by.
It's called "concealed carry" for a reason right?
It's called "concealed carry" for a reason right?
Yep, that approach works well for many in Virginia restaurants.
Plus, if one isn't comfortable doing that, there is always (at the risk of bringing the thread full circle) open carry!
Of the states where I have a permit, none of them prohibit carrying in a place that serves alcohol. If it's not allowed in one of the states that is covered by reciprocity, my sincere apologies to the establishment and the officers, I'll pay my tab and leave right away.
So....if I have a CCW, can I open carry?
So....if I have a CCW, can I open carry?
Open carry is dependent on state (and sometimes local) laws.
Virginia has no laws addressing open carry, so it is legal.
Suggest you include your state in your profile so that those who know might address your question.
Make sure to check the municipal ordinance as well.
Ex: My previous PD in Colorado. In the statutes, you can open carry, however in the particular city ordinance if residents alert because of the open carry gun, then it is violating the firearm ordinance in the city.
I know it is crap but I don't want any of us to be in trouble.
It's called "concealed carry" for a reason right?
I can't count the number of goofballs here in AZ who get all assed up about not taking their gun into an alcohol serving joint. :rolleyes:
Leaving your gun in the car (to get stolen) is much more irresponsible than having it properly concealed on your body in my opinion.
They've tried to change the alcohol serving carry law here to no success. I don't care if the get the law changed or not. I'm carrying anyway.
For me personally I just carry CCW. Here in central PA most people do. As far as open I have yet to see it here. :cool:
Just so you can read it again Alpha Sierra this is what I posted. Do you see the word restaurant any where in my post.
I have no idea how it works in Alaska, but here in Virginia there is no distinction between a bar and a restaurant. Put another way, there is no such thing as a "bar" here from an alcohol licensing standpoint - every establishment is a restaurant and serves food, and the only question is whether it serves alcohol and what kind (i.e., beer and wine only or the full menu including liquor).
Other than fast food places, 95% of restaurants here have some kind of alcohol license. They practically have to have one to make any money.
You suggestion about drawing invisible lines inside restaurants is even more unworkable and difficult to enforce than letting people carry concealed so long as they are not drinking. If somebody is dumb and irresponsible enough to drink any significant amount of alcohol while armed, I don't see why it matters whether they are at a restaurant or somewhere else.
Bulldog1967
07-07-08, 13:51
For me personally I just carry CCW. Here in central PA most people do. As far as open I have yet to see it here. :cool:
Trust me, open carry is a reality in PA. (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/)
Alaskapopo
07-07-08, 14:44
I have no idea how it works in Alaska, but here in Virginia there is no distinction between a bar and a restaurant. Put another way, there is no such thing as a "bar" here from an alcohol licensing standpoint - every establishment is a restaurant and serves food, and the only question is whether it serves alcohol and what kind (i.e., beer and wine only or the full menu including liquor).
Other than fast food places, 95% of restaurants here have some kind of alcohol license. They practically have to have one to make any money.
You suggestion about drawing invisible lines inside restaurants is even more unworkable and difficult to enforce than letting people carry concealed so long as they are not drinking. If somebody is dumb and irresponsible enough to drink any significant amount of alcohol while armed, I don't see why it matters whether they are at a restaurant or somewhere else.
That is why its an affirmative defense. You would have to show to the judge or the jury that you were in a restaurant and not a bar. The jury or judge would be the one to make the distinction. Also drinking any amount of alcohol while carrying a gun is too much in my opinion. But the law up here states if you are impaired by alcohol with a firearm you are guilty of misconduct involving weapons in the 4th degree. I have always used the DUI standard in these cases which is .08 and it has held in my cases.
Pat
That is why its an affirmative defense. You would have to show to the judge or the jury that you were in a restaurant and not a bar. The jury or judge would be the one to make the distinction.
So how am I supposed to determine up front whether I'm in a bar or a restaurant? I'm just supposed to go and eat at Applebees and hope I don't get seated too close to the bar? Or hope that a jury of soccer moms agrees with my view after I fork over $10K to a defense attorney?
I know that a few states have used a revenue measure (e.g., 50% or more of revenue from alcohol sales) to draw a line. I still think that's a poor policy, but at least it's an objective standard and it does work IF they are required to post signs indicating the establishment's status.
Alaskapopo
07-07-08, 15:23
So how am I supposed to determine up front whether I'm in a bar or a restaurant? I'm just supposed to go and eat at Applebees and hope I don't get seated too close to the bar? Or hope that a jury of soccer moms agrees with my view after I fork over $10K to a defense attorney?
I know that a few states have used a revenue measure (e.g., 50% or more of revenue from alcohol sales) to draw a line. I still think that's a poor policy, but at least it's an objective standard and it does work IF they are required to post signs indicating the establishment's status.
Well it think common sense comes into play. Most people know what a bar is vs a restaurant. Personally I don't think you should be able to carry where alcohol is served period. But I have made that clear.
Pat
It's called "concealed carry" for a reason right?
Word my brother.
John_Wayne777
07-07-08, 15:57
Well it think common sense comes into play. Most people know what a bar is vs a restaurant. Personally I don't think you should be able to carry where alcohol is served period. But I have made that clear.
Pat
...except that in a lot of restaurants they put the john over by the bar area. Go to wash your hands and bingo....you're now illegal.
...except that in a lot of restaurants they put the john over by the bar area. Go to wash your hands and bingo....you're now illegal.
The term "illegal" is considered impolite. From now on, please use the term "guest pisser" or "undocumented licensee."
The term "illegal" is considered impolite. From now on, please use the term "guest pisser" or "undocumented licensee."
I'd just hire someone to sneak me across the border (between the restaurant and bar sections) when I had to make water.
But then there is a huge quandary. On the one hand, you could just put up some kind of barrier -- I don't, like a fence -- between the two. But on the other hand, doing that would probably have a huge negative economic impact on the bar area.
Gutshot John
07-07-08, 17:34
I'm sure we all realize that the whole issue could be solved with a simple law that says 'thou shalt not consume alcohol/drugs while carrying concealed' and let you go into any bar/restaurant you want...so long as you order Ice tea.
Personal responsibility what a concept. ;)
There is large difference between the letter of the law and the intent of the law. Everyone let that sink in for a while. ;)
Alaskapopo
07-07-08, 20:59
There is large difference between the letter of the law and the intent of the law. Everyone let that sink in for a while. ;)
The law is the law. If you break it which some here seem to be encouraging, you need to be ready to face the consequences. If you don't like the law work to change it but don't become a criminal.
Pat
The law is the law. If you break it which some here seem to be encouraging, you need to be ready to face the consequences. If you don't like the law work to change it but don't become a criminal.
Pat
Who's arguing that? You miss the mark a lot when it comes to my comments. No one else seems to have this issue but your responses and/or ignoring of my comments is intensely curious.
Alaskapopo
07-07-08, 21:27
Who's arguing that? You miss the mark a lot when it comes to my comments. No one else seems to have this issue but your responses and/or ignoring of my comments is intensely curious.
Originally Posted by M4arc View Post
It's called "concealed carry" for a reason right?
There have been a few other posts like that. Basically what it looks like is being said is if you don't get caught no harm no foul. That is true until you do get caught then you end up paying big time. Its a gamble. Also I fail to see how I have ignored any comments in this thread directed at me. I have done my best to answer what has been asked. Not sure why that is curious. You make it seem like I have some sort of evil agenda.
Pat
Okay I think we have beaten this to death! Just comes down to common sense!
Originally Posted by M4arc View Post
It's called "concealed carry" for a reason right?
There have been a few other posts like that. Basically what it looks like is being said is if you don't get caught no harm no foul. That is true until you do get caught then you end up paying big time. Its a gamble. Also I fail to see how I have ignored any comments in this thread directed at me. I have done my best to answer what has been asked. Not sure why that is curious. You make it seem like I have some sort of evil agenda.
Pat
WHAT!!?!?!?!?!?!
That's ok man. I understand things get lost in translation on the internet and I would never intentionally make it seem like you were doing anything evil. Your stance is backed by personal experience and your own gained knowledge. Mine is as well. I believe yours to be full of flaw and emotionally weighted but that doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means I THINK you are wrong. And I promise you, the fact that I THINK you are wrong will not impact yours or anyone elses life. I'm fine with leaving well enough alone.
Alaskapopo
07-07-08, 23:32
WHAT!!?!?!?!?!?!
That's ok man. I understand things get lost in translation on the internet and I would never intentionally make it seem like you were doing anything evil. Your stance is backed by personal experience and your own gained knowledge. Mine is as well. I believe yours to be full of flaw and emotionally weighted but that doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means I THINK you are wrong. And I promise you, the fact that I THINK you are wrong will not impact yours or anyone elses life. I'm fine with leaving well enough alone.
Thanks. I know I am biased on this issue partly because of the loss of my brother and also because of my job which gives me a very negative view on alcohol and partly due to my religion.
Also I trust 99.99% of people on this board with going into a place that serves alcohol with their gun and not drinking. But most people are not as responsible as people on this board.
Pat
The law is the law. If you break it which some here seem to be encouraging, you need to be ready to face the consequences. If you don't like the law work to change it but don't become a criminal.
Pat
I would have to disagree, the law is not the law. There is Natural Law and positive law. Most positive law is in violation of Natural Law.
Discussion of open carry (including in bars): OK
Discussion of general philosophy of law: start another thread
Thank you. :cool:
Thanks. I know I am biased on this issue partly because of the loss of my brother and also because of my job which gives me a very negative view on alcohol and partly due to my religion.
Also I trust 99.99% of people on this board with going into a place that serves alcohol with their gun and not drinking. But most people are not as responsible as people on this board.
Pat
Akpopo,
Most folks are responsible, even in the general public. In your line of work you just get to deal with a high percentage of idiots.
My right to defend myself as I see fit any time any place should not be dictated by law. Attempting to change such laws is useless, as society has been brainwashed.
By making such laws and supporting them you take the responsibility in protecting me. However we all know you can’t protect anyone, regardless of your laws, badge and all the training in the world. Your there to sort out the mess and write reports. Only I/you can protect me/yourself 24/7.
Being a born & raised Alaskan you have lost your sense of individualism/responsibility and have assumed the left wing thinking, that laws make things right. You have been brainwashed.
Suppose there was a law that you could only pray while facing east 5 times a day. I know you would disobey that law, under concealment………. Am I wrong? The way this country is going such laws are not far away.
Will I someday be sitting in jail for having tools of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness on my person? Maybe….but that’s a risk I take. But it’s a risk of personal responsibility. Not that of a criminal.
Outa sight, Outa mind…….live it breathe it.
Alaskapopo
07-08-08, 01:30
Akpopo,
Most folks are responsible, even in the general public. In your line of work you just get to deal with a high percentage of idiots.
My right to defend myself as I see fit any time any place should not be dictated by law. Attempting to change such laws is useless, as society has been brainwashed.
By making such laws and supporting them you take the responsibility in protecting me. However we all know you can’t protect anyone, regardless of your laws, badge and all the training in the world. Your there to sort out the mess and write reports. Only I/you can protect me/yourself 24/7.
Being a born & raised Alaskan you have lost your sense of individualism/responsibility and have assumed the left wing thinking, that laws make things right. You have been brainwashed.
Suppose there was a law that you could only pray while facing east 5 times a day. I know you would disobey that law, under concealment………. Am I wrong? The way this country is going such laws are not far away.
Will I someday be sitting in jail for having tools of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness on my person? Maybe….but that’s a risk I take. But it’s a risk of personal responsibility. Not that of a criminal.
Outa sight, Outa mind…….live it breathe it.
You can go too far left but you can also go to far the the right politically but that is another thread. I find myself just right of center on most political scales.
Pat
You can go too far left but you can also go to far the the right politically but that is another thread. I find myself just right of center on most political scales.
Pat
The problem is the center keeps getting closer to the far left. :D
Your a good guy, and seem very down to earth. Maybe a few more years as a cop will bring you further right........
Gutshot John
07-08-08, 13:13
Nevermind
Alaskapopo
07-09-08, 05:14
The problem is the center keeps getting closer to the far left. :D
Your a good guy, and seem very down to earth. Maybe a few more years as a cop will bring you further right........
I doubt it the longer I have been a cop has moved me more to the left. I am still right of center but not as far right as I used to be. I have learned from personal experience that you can not trust people to do the right thing.
Pat
I doubt it the longer I have been a cop has moved me more to the left. I am still right of center but not as far right as I used to be. I have learned from personal experience that you can not trust people to do the right thing.
Pat
wow, i had dropped out of this conversation, but I just have to say that your last statement makes me very sad for you
i would venture that if your profession has made you so jaded that maybe it is time to do something else....
we operate and live in a system that empowers the citizens, and trusts them to do the right thing...
it is a sad day when you have become so jaded that you feel that either you, the government, or some other policing agency must substitute their own personal judgment and personal responsibility for the citizenry....because when they do, that is the beginning of tyranny
Alaskapopo
07-09-08, 07:12
wow, i had dropped out of this conversation, but I just have to say that your last statement makes me very sad for you
i would venture that if your profession has made you so jaded that maybe it is time to do something else....
we operate and live in a system that empowers the citizens, and trusts them to do the right thing...
it is a sad day when you have become so jaded that you feel that either you, the government, or some other policing agency must substitute their own personal judgment and personal responsibility for the citizenry....because when they do, that is the beginning of tyranny
I just enforce the laws I am entrusted to enforce. I don't have the power to take away any personal responsibility from the citizenry. Sounds like you are getting a bit too deep into this.
Pat
I doubt it the longer I have been a cop has moved me more to the left. I am still right of center but not as far right as I used to be. I have learned from personal experience that you can not trust people to do the right thing.
Pat
Thats interesting.
So with everything you have seen up to this date in your carreer. When you give up your badge (retired, quit etc.)Would you not want the right to defend yourself & family against idiots and the scumbags, no matter where you decide you have the right to be?
I just enforce the laws I am entrusted to enforce. I don't have the power to take away any personal responsibility from the citizenry. Sounds like you are getting a bit too deep into this.
Pat
But that isn't what you said...you said you have learned from experience that you cannot trust people to do the right thing....
if you would like to qualify that to "criminals" or some such thing, I understand, but a government or police force that does not trust "the people" because a few them break laws and are deviant from society has lost sight of itself...
from your statement, you EXPECT people to break the law...because you don't trust them to do the right thing....whereas I expect that people are generally good and law abiding, and expect the law/police/government to help deal with those that don't....
you have admitted to an inherrent mistrust....given this your stance on CCW where alcohol is served is totally understable...you EXPECT people to go and break the law
but that isn't how it works....innocent until proven guilty.....trustworthy until proven untrustworthy....
unless there are a lot of criminals in Alaska, you still seek to punish the innocent and the righteous by denying them certain freedoms because of the deeds and abuses of those freedoms by a few wicked men....
but, again, I could be reading more into it then there is....but given the stances you have expressed in this thread, combined with the fact that you don't believe "you can trust people to do the right thing" I don't know that its as far off as you say...
but, hey, its the internet, by simply posting I have admitted to being an overinvolved moron....i still wish you safety and health
Jay Cunningham
07-09-08, 13:08
but, hey, its the internet, by simply posting I have admitted to being an overinvolved moron...
lolz11!1!11
Awesomeness11!!1
:p :p :p
Alaskapopo
07-09-08, 16:24
Thats interesting.
So with everything you have seen up to this date in your carreer. When you give up your badge (retired, quit etc.)Would you not want the right to defend yourself & family against idiots and the scumbags, no matter where you decide you have the right to be?
You are making a big leap. I want the same rights you and I both have now. However do I plan to start going to the bar with a gun on no. Do I think taking a gun into a place that serves alcohol is a good idea in general no. I don't drink nor do I see myself starting. The biggest part of defending yourself is not carrying a gun but rather being careful about where you go and who you hang out with.
Pat
You are making a big leap. I want the same rights you and I both have now. However do I plan to start going to the bar with a gun on no. Do I think taking a gun into a place that serves alcohol is a good idea in general no. I don't drink nor do I see myself starting. The biggest part of defending yourself is not carrying a gun but rather being careful about where you go and who you hang out with.
Pat
Well…. many of us have no problem defending ourself against any 1 human and don't need a gun to do so.
Then there is the multiple scumbag scenario, whole different ballgame.
But what about those whom you make victims with your laws.
The waitress, bartender. Bar owner, restarunt owner, taxi driver, husband, brother, wife picking up said persons the list goes on.
Your line of thinking is how the gungrabbers justify all gun laws. Owning a gun is bad, someone can be shot with it. They use officials like you to appeal to the fence sitters and anti-gun emotional voters.
Soon the rights you speak of will be reserved for only those with badges or government use.
Disarming responsible civilians is not the answer to a safer society, regaurdless of place and company kept.
Alaskapopo
07-10-08, 01:22
Well…. many of us have no problem defending ourself against any 1 human and don't need a gun to do so.
Then there is the multiple scumbag scenario, whole different ballgame.
But what about those whom you make victims with your laws.
The waitress, bartender. Bar owner, restarunt owner, taxi driver, husband, brother, wife picking up said persons the list goes on.
Your line of thinking is how the gungrabbers justify all gun laws. Owning a gun is bad, someone can be shot with it. They use officials like you to appeal to the fence sitters and anti-gun emotional voters.
Soon the rights you speak of will be reserved for only those with badges or government use.
Disarming responsible civilians is not the answer to a safer society, regaurdless of place and company kept.
The waitress, bartender, bar owner ect are exempt. The bar owner can carry on his property so long as he is not impaired. He can allow his or her employees to carry under the law. (I speak for Alaska no other state) Not sure where the Taxi cab driver came in as they can carry and they do not serve alcohol or had better not.
Pat
The waitress, bartender, bar owner ect are exempt. The bar owner can carry on his property so long as he is not impaired. He can allow his or her employees to carry under the law. (I speak for Alaska no other state) Not sure where the Taxi cab driver came in as they can carry and they do not serve alcohol or had better not.
Pat
The point was that folks have lagit reasons to be anyplace.
Trained Idiots was what we use to call folks who claimed" Its the law" or "I was just doing my job".
Don't forget that the 2nd ammendment is there to protect civilians from untrusting & over bearing rules of law.
The guys/gals having a glass of wine with dinner in a public restaruant are not irresponsible or a criminal. They are more then likely the person paying your wages. To consider these types of folks unworthy of your trust says a lot.
There are a lot of cops that are untrustworthy and do the wrong thing. Doesn't mean we consider the general cop population to be so.
Its too bad your opinion of people is so shaded.
Alaskapopo
07-10-08, 14:56
The point was that folks have lagit reasons to be anyplace.
Trained Idiots was what we use to call folks who claimed" Its the law" or "I was just doing my job".
Don't forget that the 2nd ammendment is there to protect civilians from untrusting & over bearing rules of law.
The guys/gals having a glass of wine with dinner in a public restaruant are not irresponsible or a criminal. They are more then likely the person paying your wages. To consider these types of folks unworthy of your trust says a lot.
There are a lot of cops that are untrustworthy and do the wrong thing. Doesn't mean we consider the general cop population to be so.
Its too bad your opinion of people is so shaded.
The second amendment was there because the founding fathers resented the british disarming the citizenry. It had nothing to do with the police. Also I have been a cop for almost 9 years now and I have only met a handful of bad cops. Most of which have since lost their jobs or gone to jail. There is a screening process for police that eliminate most of the bad ones. (Poly, psychological, background checks ect) To be a police officer you have to be a cut above the rest of the population in many areas. So I do have more trust in cops than in the citizenry as a whole.
Pat
Gutshot John
07-10-08, 15:08
The second amendment was there because the founding fathers resented the british disarming the citizenry.
Right...which would be an abuse of legal power from an untrusting government.
It had nothing to do with the police. Also I have been a cop for almost 9 years now and I have only met a handful of bad cops.
Cops are people...some bad, most good and many just plain stupid.
Most of which have since lost their jobs or gone to jail.
You're presuming that a "bad" cop is a criminal. In most cases a "bad" cop isn't dishonest he is just stupid. You can't tell me you've only met a handful of stupid cops.
There is a screening process for police that eliminate most of the bad ones. (Poly, psychological, background checks ect)
That's pretty funny. Seriously it made me laugh.
This thread has now edged into the cops vs non-cops arena. Closed.
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