Independence ammo must be loaded pretty damn hot?

[mastiffhound]

I subscribe to a lot of ammo testing channels on youtube, I always like to see what performance people are getting from different ammo makers. When I checked today a new video from Buffman was up, I like his videos because he always posts the results in the description. Here is the video-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6dw73p2To8

Here is what he got from a 16" barreled Stag with Independence 5.56 xm193i in case you don't want to watch-

#1: 3,220
#2: 3,276
#3: 3,220
#4: 3,228
#5: 3,267
Avg: 3,242

Here is what he was getting from a 10" barreled Yugo M85 PAP

#1: 2,783
#2: 2,754
#3: 2,801
#4: 2,772
#5: 2,789
Avg:2,780

From a 16" barrel that stuff is really moving. I wonder what I'd get from a 20"? 3400 fps? Hell, I've seen people get damn close to the same fps as the 10" Yugo from a 16" barreled AR. I saw some of this on sale but passed, now I'm glad I did. I wonder how fast a 5.56 proof load is?

[dpete]

There are other threads around that express the same conclusion. Its HOT! Blown primers hot.

[JBecker 72]

I've shot about 800 rounds of this stuff and have been examining the brass. Haven't noticed a single popped primer yet.

I still have 500 rounds of it left. I'll probably just shoot it up and never buy it again based on what I've read. But no problems on my end yet.

[markm]

I just pulled down 500 rounds of this stuff and dropped the charge weight from 26.9 grains to 25.3 grains. It's loaded retarded hot. I heard about a contact with Federal where they're starting to play stupid about taking responsibility for the guns this ammo has blown up.

[sevenhelmet]

Wow! Is all Independence ammunition that hot, or just the 5.56?

Seems muzzle velocity is an effective ploy, based on the idiot comments below the video.

[JBecker 72]

I just pulled down 500 rounds of this stuff and dropped the charge weight from 26.9 grains to 25.3 grains. It's loaded retarded hot. I heard about a contact with Federal where they're starting to play stupid about taking responsibility for the guns this ammo has blown up.

When I called and asked if they had problems with my lot numbers they played dumb. Acted like they never heard of a problem with this stuff. So that doesn't surprise me.

[HKGuns]

I just pulled down 500 rounds of this stuff and dropped the charge weight from 26.9 grains to 25.3 grains. It's loaded retarded hot. I heard about a contact with Federal where they're starting to play stupid about taking responsibility for the guns this ammo has blown up.

Could you tell what powder they were using? If not was it ball or stick powder?

[mastiffhound]

I just pulled down 500 rounds of this stuff and dropped the charge weight from 26.9 grains to 25.3 grains. It's loaded retarded hot. I heard about a contact with Federal where they're starting to play stupid about taking responsibility for the guns this ammo has blown up.

I wonder what powder they use? My 55 gr reloads out of my 20" are always between 3150 and 3200, when I saw it was a 16" getting those velocities I couldn't believe they were loaded that hot. The people in the comments section think it's great? I wonder if someone did the math and found that a recall would cost more than the potential lawsuits?


Could you tell what powder they were using? If not was it ball or stick powder?

In the video he got a 26.2 gr charge weight and it looks to be spherical powder, but it could be short cut stick.

I almost forgot, he stated that it was 53 degrees outside during his testing. I wonder what he would get at 100 degrees?

[vicious_cb]

Some other data points:

Manufacturer weight type Firearm Length Velocity (fps) SD ES Temp
M193, Independence XM193I 55 FMJ AR-15 16" 3195 50
M193, Independence XM193I 55 FMJ AR-15 20" 3343 94

M193, Federal XM193 55 FMJ AR-15 11.5 2911 36 114 86°F
M193, Federal XM193 55 FMJ AR-15 14.5 2991 15 53 54°F
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 03) 55 FMJ AR-15 16 3086 27 87
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 08) 55 FMJ AR-15 16 3106 27
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 08) 55 FMJ AR-15 20 3232 40
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 14) 55 FMJ AR-15 16 3074 42
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 14) 55 FMJ AR-15 20 3244 52

Looks like its running ~100 fps more than your run of the mill xm193.

[mastiffhound]

Some other data points:

Manufacturer weight type Firearm Length Velocity (fps) SD ES Temp
M193, Independence XM193I 55 FMJ AR-15 16" 3195 50
M193, Independence XM193I 55 FMJ AR-15 20" 3343 94

M193, Federal XM193 55 FMJ AR-15 11.5 2911 36 114 86°F
M193, Federal XM193 55 FMJ AR-15 14.5 2991 15 53 54°F
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 03) 55 FMJ AR-15 16 3086 27 87
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 08) 55 FMJ AR-15 16 3106 27
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 08) 55 FMJ AR-15 20 3232 40
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 14) 55 FMJ AR-15 16 3074 42
M193, Federal XM193 (LC 14) 55 FMJ AR-15 20 3244 52

Looks like its running ~100 fps more than your run of the mill xm193.

Going by your spread it looks like the Independence lost 37 fps per inch from a 20" to 16" barrel. His 16" average of 3242 fps was higher than yours by 47 fps even though the temp was virtually the same. I wish I knew when both were loaded, was it in the same year, month, week, etc.? He's getting almost the exact same average with the Indy M193 with a 16" barrel (3242 fps) as you are getting with Fed LC14 XM193 out of a 20" (3244 fps). I'll be warning the guys at work away from this stuff for sure.

[markm]

Could you tell what powder they were using? If not was it ball or stick powder?

Ball for sure. Probably not Canister grade, but likely something along the lines of H335. 500 dented and damaged cases.... Looks like shipping damage... so I can't 100% blame the manufacturer/QC.

I have some really badly dented cases I want to chrono to see if major dents increase pressure/velocity.

[fz1boxer]

some of this stuff looks hotter than the old winchester white box from'99

[bfoosh006]

Deleted

[Iraqgunz]

You already stared on that, huh? Drop me a line and give me the scoop!



I just pulled down 500 rounds of this stuff and dropped the charge weight from 26.9 grains to 25.3 grains. It's loaded retarded hot. I heard about a contact with Federal where they're starting to play stupid about taking responsibility for the guns this ammo has blown up.

[JBecker 72]

Ran another hundred rounds of this stuff without incident. Also ran 100 of the Federal AE556 stuff at 100 and 200 meters. No popped primers, no major POI shift at either distance. Maybe a 2" shift in windage. Ejection was the same pile for both. Both 4 MOA on average at both distances.

Far from scientific but there was no discernible difference.

[.46caliber]

Here's the other thread with more info on thus exact subject. I saw right around 3,000 fps out of my 16".

Mods, it may be worth merging so we have the various lot #s in one thread.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=153680

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[mastiffhound]

Buffman put up another vid with XM193 out of the 16" Stag he uses- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXPr81toTx8

His results were:

Stag Model 1L:
#1: 3,072
#2: 3,108
#3: 3,115
#4: --
#5: 3,108
Avg: 3,101

The high for XM193 was 3115 fps while the Indy was 3276, I'm glad he did another vid using xm193 with the same AR. It comes out to 161 fps faster on the high end and the two lows came out 148 fps faster for the Indy. That averages out to a 154.5 fps difference between xm193 and the Indy out of the same 16" barrel on the high and low. Overall average is 141 fps higher for the Indy. I've heard over and over that XM193 is loaded too hot. If that's the case, shooting Indy is what I would call dangerous. Unless they put it on sale for $4 a box or less so I could pull them apart and download them I'm going to stay the hell away.

What powder does Federal use for the XM193? Is it the same as Winchester 748? The powder charge for the XM193 he measured at 27.6 gr, the only powder listed that high is BL-C(2), Hodgdon lists it at a 27.5 gr max?

[.46caliber]

I ran a similar test with my Sig 16" bbl with a 1/7 twist. The problem with Independence seems to be lot to lot variance. If memory serves, one of the guys in the other thread saw 3300 fps out of his with his Independence. And I wonder if buffman's chamber is 5.56 or slightly undersized. Is Stag one of the manufacturers that's been found to have out of spec chambers? I'm not familiar with them at all.

Independence 5.56 - 8 Shots - 3033 AVG. - Lot # FC12K001-001
3014
3002 - LO
3053
3056 - HI
3039
3033
3044
3030

Federal XM193 Brown Box - 9 Shots - 3023 AVG.
3039
3015 - LO
3043 - HI
3018
3027
3018
3023
3039
3003

[BruceGAR]

Happy Friday All,
Quite a while ago my Family bought a few thousand rounds of Independence 5.56, box clearly states made in Israel. After now reading many posts can someone tell me if they have had any negative or excessive pressures from these lots:

FC14E001-114 and FC14D001-108

This was bought purely for stashing and has not even been taken out of the cardboard 500 round packs.

Our sincere thanks to any and all responses !!

[bmfdez]

I've taken one apart before due to a popped primer issue that had my bolt stuck. can't remember what kind of powder was used. I believe it was ball. But what surprised me was how much powder was in there. Thing was packed to the rim!

[eightmillimeter]

some of this stuff looks hotter than the old winchester white box from'99

You talking the old "Israeli" Q3131A load that was in WCC cases sold as WWB? I really, really, miss that ammo. Spent a small fortune stocking up on that stuff at $180/1000. Every once in a while I still find 20 rounds laying around. It was always faster than the regular Q3131. Definitely my absolute favorite ammo until it disappeared. I'm a Prvi lover now.

[fz1boxer]

yep still have some of that stuff packed away in cans,I'm stocking up on the men ammo pretty accurate stuff,more so than my IMI.
regular old q3131 was all over the place