View Full Version : Hunting ammunition in SHTF scenario?
I understand most on this forum shoot and stock up mostly on FMJ ammunition due to price and availability, but I'm thinking my first mag in a SHTF scenario will be polymer tipped hunting ammunition. My reasoning would be to cause the most possible ballistic damage as possible to my intended target. And of course the benefits of hunting with it is twofold. What our your thoughts on topic ? Do I have a valid point here? Is it worth the extra cost to stock pile?
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Might be better suited for either the disaster prep or ammunition sub-forums.
Most polymer tipped rounds in 556 are a varmint bullet. Varmints like squirrels, groundhogs, and prairie dogs. They shred into a million tiny pieces on impact on impact.
That is not the type of bullet you want to used on someone attacking you because the millions of tiny little pieces won't make it to the attacker's vital organs.
You are looking for a bonded bullet. The only polymer tipped bonded bullet in 556 I know of is the Swift Scirocco. One good bonded option that is hunting ammo in 223 is the Federal Fusion 62 grain line. It can easily be found at Academy or most other sporting goods stores.
Sending you a PM where you can read further.
Last edit. Please note my experience is only as a hunter. I have shot deer with my AR using the Nosler 60 gr Accubond which has performed as advertised. I have shot jack rabbits with my AR. I have never used a firearm against another person so others can offer additional insight.
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Voodoo_Man
12-25-14, 08:16
It'll work.
Not as effectively as a bullet like speer gold dot or the like, but it will work fine.
Outlander Systems
12-25-14, 08:41
Most polymer tipped rounds in 556 are a varmint bullet. Varmints like squirrels, groundhogs, and prairie dogs. They shred into a million tiny pieces on impact on impact.
That is not the type of bullet you want to used on someone attacking you because the millions of tiny little pieces won't make it to the attacker's vital organs.
You are looking for a bonded bullet. The only polymer tipped bonded bullet in 556 I know of is the Swift Scirocco. One good bonded option that is hunting ammo in 223 is the Federal Fusion 62 grain line. It can easily be found at Academy or most other sporting goods stores.
Sending you a PM where you can read further.
Last edit. Please note my experience is only as a hunter. I have shot deer with my AR using the Nosler 60 gr Accubond which has performed as advertised. I have shot jack rabbits with my AR. I have never used a firearm against another person so others can offer additional insight.
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Meat is meat mah brotha.
What have been your best performing hunting rounds?
Sorry if I posted in the wrong forum, mods move it if possible.
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What caliber are you talking about specifically? Are you looking for a specific caliber hunting round that can also be used for self defense, or are you just talking generally?
I'm talking 223/556
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I'd stick with bonded hunting stuff, not the varmint rounds. I like the 64 grain Noslers because I can get the bullets to reload them as well as getting factory ammo. They are not as fast as the 5.56 stuff, but the velocity floor for expansion is fairly low.
Meat is meat mah brotha.
What have been your best performing hunting rounds?
For hunting with an AR I have had good success with the Nosler 60 gr Accubond, Federal 62 gr Fusion, and the Barnes copper bullets in a couple of weights. By good success I mean I have not lost a deer using shots to the vitals.
These bullets have all given me two different things that I really like. One is a complete pass through on most of my deer. I shoot 556/223 into the heart/lungs. A pass through gives me a good blood trail that I don't need a dog to follow if the deer doesn't fall immediately. In fairness, I have seen some varmint bullets create a huge exit wound. However, that appears to be a random occurrence and is found most often on young, very thin deer.
The second benefit relates directly to the meat. I am a meat hunter pure and simple. Antlers on the wall are nice but I love some seared backstrap and my family's German vensison sausage recipe. I want to maximize how much meat I get off a deer. I know people that shoot ballistic tip/varmint rounds who put the bullet right into a deer's shoulder. They never lose a deer. However, they also lose an entire shoulder of meat that makes great hamburger or grind for sausage.
How does all this relate to the OP's question? Speaking with hunters of all types growing up in a rural hometown, I learned that ballistic tip/varmint rounds always wound but are not always a reliable killer. Lost deer tend to happen with ballistic tips on gut and high shots. Those deer do not bleed out quickly and can run a long way before dying with minimal blood trail. Poor shots on deer with bonded bullets tend to be found more quickly either due to a better blood trail or the deer dieing quickly. Granted, there are a lot of rednecks that have no idea what kind of bullet they are shooting so I don't really take into account what they say.
Sorry for the rambling and Merry Christmas to everyone.
Get something loaded with a tsx/ttsx, fusion/gold dot, bonded solid base, trophy bonded bear claw, nosler partition, 65 gameking, or a heavy otm. That leaves plenty of options and if you reload it opens up many more options. Even the Hornady 55 grain soft point with cannelure is not a bad option. They hold together pretty good, and they don't explode like varmint bullets.
I understand most on this forum shoot and stock up mostly on FMJ ammunition due to price and availability, but I'm thinking my first mag in a SHTF scenario will be polymer tipped hunting ammunition. My reasoning would be to cause the most possible ballistic damage as possible to my intended target. And of course the benefits of hunting with it is twofold. What our your thoughts on topic ? Do I have a valid point here? Is it worth the extra cost to stock pile?
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Caliber hasn't been mentioned so I will assume 556. I don't think the man vs game comparison is fair. When hunting you want to do as much damage as possible with the first shot because a deer isn't going to stand around waiting for the second or third. The problem with preparing for a SHTF event is... You have no way of knowing how long it will last. I would rather keep things simple and stock pile green tips as my do anything ammunition. If I could justify the cost of 556 hunting ammunition I would buy an AR10 and stock up on 308.
I have popped a couple of deer with the .223 Nosler Defense 64 grain bonded ammo with decent results. They were perfect broad side double lung shots and brought the animal down within 30 or so yds from where they stood. That said, I would never use them for anything less than the perfect shot presentation scenario or use any of the tipped varmint rounds just because I'm lazy and don't want to spend the day tracking a deer. This is the main reason I built a 16" 300 BLK. Will I use a 5.56/223 again for hunting? yes but it isn't my go to gun for deer sized game.
sevenhelmet
12-26-14, 07:50
If you're worried about putting meat on the table with a rifle long term, I would look at something other than a .223/5.56. Maybe two rifles: a 22 LR for small stuff and something in .30 caliber for medium/large game. You *could* substitute your AR-15 for small game, but .22LR is cheaper (assuming you can find any).
Green tips for hunting with an AR-15? Good luck... I hope you like tracking game.
If you're worried about putting meat on the table with a rifle long term, I would look at something other than a .223/5.56. Maybe two rifles: a 22 LR for small stuff and something in .30 caliber for medium/large game. You *could* substitute your AR-15 for small game, but .22LR is cheaper (assuming you can find any).
Green tips for hunting with an AR-15? Good luck... I hope you like tracking game.
Currently my rifles include 2 ruger 10/22's, a16" AR and a bolt action 25-06. I think I hit the basis for all game here in northern ohio.
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Currently my rifles include 2 ruger 10/22's, a16" AR and a bolt action 25-06. I think I hit the basis for all game here in northern ohio.
Out of those options, I would use the 25-06 every time for hunting deer size game. 223/556 is fine for varmints, but I wouldn't trust it on a game animal you should take ethically.
I purchased some 70 gr TSX bullets to reload a few years ago. I gave them to friends, in-laws, etc to try out on game. Partly because there were lots of children who couldn't handle .308s and .30-06, but also to get data. Thus far, 10 deer have been taken with them and the farthest one traveled was less than 10 yards. 6 of them were heart/lung shots, the remainder being head shots. So far, so good. How they would work defensively? I cannot say but I couldn't see them doing worse than M193 or M855.
My experience with bonded bullets: they are great until they fail. I've had bonded bullets act like varmint bullets. Perhaps there was something wrong in the manufacturing process and it was a fluke, but I was unimpressed and discontinued use.
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Out of those options, I would use the 25-06 every time for hunting deer size game. 223/556 is fine for varmints, but I wouldn't trust it on a game animal you should take ethically.
This ^^^ x 10.
Now for your SHTF, you'll want to stock 10 boxes of the quarter bore for your big game hunting regardless. I wouldn't "purpose hunt" with the AR when you have that .25-06 (110 gr Accubond is a wonderful round in that BTW). Where your AR is concerned, mk262 (or clone) or the "brown tip" is good. More expensive, lighter weight bonded rounds (as mentioned prior) are also very good for the intended purpose.
Green tips are good for stocking up on due to their relative low cost and ability to shoot a lot of them. Not for relative effectiveness.
There's good reason why hunting rifles are chambered in more powerful rounds than .223... That .25-06 is perfect medicine for deer sized game.
OP- What does "SHTF" mean? To you. What are you preparing for.
One thing that I did not see mentioned (may have missed it) is the OPs location. If you live somewhere that game comes in a larger variety you may consider a larger caliber for hunting in a SHTF scenario. 30-06 is a good starting point for most North American game animals. Mine all round rifle is chambered in 280 Remington. If America's largest bear species are a factor than you want to be thinking 338 Win Mag. The Larue OBR or equivalent can be great self defense/hunting rifles. With the additional capacity and accuracy it can be used close in or out to 1000 yards with a prevalent cartridge (SHTF scenarios) that packs enough punch to deal with most game.
OP- What does "SHTF" mean? To you. What are you preparing for.
I should have went deeper into this. I'll consider a SHTF when I have to start protecting myself and family from the two legged variety.
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I should have went deeper into this. I'll consider a SHTF when I have to start protecting myself and family from the two legged variety.
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That's today, though.
Is this a zombie/post-apocalyptic/anarchy thing? You're plans are going to fall apart, you'll be somewhere near plan E or F, your stores aren't likely to be portable or with you, and you'll be grateful for any ammo you can get.
If you're thinking about contingency ammo for supply shortages, legislative controls, brief periods of civil unrest... Get beans, rice, dry foods, water, and a generator. You won't need to run around shooting game, just make it through the first 3-30 days. Buy some ammo on the GTG list and go train. BTW, that GTG ammo is likely to work fine small and medium game, as well as smaller large game. I shoot a lot of deer with 5.56 carbines.
I am no expert here, but shot placement is the key, not the ammo - regardless of how many legs the target has.
A .45 HST to the shoulder vs. a 9mm FMJ to the thoracic zone. Guess which one is going to drop first.
Same can be said for rifle. Money better spent on practice and training to hit what you aim at, rather than wizbang ammo. IMO2.
NickySantoro
12-27-14, 08:58
I should have went deeper into this. I'll consider a SHTF when I have to start protecting myself and family from the two legged variety.
I have an inventory of M193 for this purpose. It did the job 45 years ago and, human physiology having remained constant, I have every confidence that it will do the job today.
OP you are overthinking the problem.
Bonded barrier blind soft points, or 75/77gr otm.
193 and 855 suck. I don't know why everyone buys it. It's expensive, has terrible terminal performance, even worse barrier performance, and is inaccurate.
you can buy crimped/sealed ammo loaded with a decent bullet for a fair price, or reload it for cheaper.
I wouldn't recommend it for defense, but I bought bvac loaded with fusion 62 gr and it's performed way better than any 193/855 accuracy wise. Others have tested the bullets prformance.
The real fed fusion is $14/20 and a good load. It's not like you need to stockpile thousands of rounds. Soldiers in battle carry 7 mags.
OP you are overthinking the problem.
I'm not sure I'm over thinking the problem. I was simply asking what would you rather have in your rifle(ar15) in a SHTF, FMJ or hunting ammunition. When it seems the common ammo to stock up on is FMJ.
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sevenhelmet
12-27-14, 17:33
Hmmm... Given the very broad nature of how one defines "SHTF", I'll go with 77 grain SMK.
I'm not sure I'm over thinking the problem. I was simply asking what would you rather have in your rifle(ar15) in a SHTF, FMJ or hunting ammunition. When it seems the common ammo to stock up on is FMJ.
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Narrow the scope of the problem, and/or more clearly define it, and you're likely to get better results. "SHTF" is not a useful term, and is likely to bring in the zombie guys more than the informed survival/contingency members.
Look at the threads discussing .223/5.56 defensive ammo that passes the FBI specs and makes the GTG list.
I'm not sure I'm over thinking the problem. I was simply asking what would you rather have in your rifle(ar15) in a SHTF, FMJ or hunting ammunition. When it seems the common ammo to stock up on is FMJ.
I would rather have 69-77 grain OTM in mine whether it is an emergency situation or I am shooting anything over 100 yds. If you are looking for something to stock up on, you should be looking at getting the best ammo that you can afford. Factors that I consider when choosing ammo to stock up on are: accuracy, ballistics, reliability, and lastly price.
FloridaWoodsman
01-09-15, 02:51
I may be going against the grain here, but everybody has their own strategy. I wouldn't be afraid to use 55 gr. varmint bullets for home defense or urban combat against an unarmored opponent. It may not penetrate deeply, but I don't want to risk a pass-through in that kind of situation. Browse the YouTube test videos like this one - www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QhrX7b4-Dk or videos featuring ballistic gel. The wound is short, but really nasty. It would burst a bazillion capillaries. Do your own test like I did - Take about a one foot stack of newspapers and soak them thoroughly overnight (supposedly it's tougher than ballistic gel). Then fire something like V-Max or Z-Max into it and you're going to see a scary cavity. See if you don't think it could reach a heart or lung with a frontal shot.
Paradis1142
01-09-15, 06:17
60 grains or more should do the job even the nosler ballistic tip has a thick base that will penetrate well.
Paradis1142
01-09-15, 06:18
Nosler partition... Hard to beat for many applications.
I may be going against the grain here, but everybody has their own strategy. I wouldn't be afraid to use 55 gr. varmint bullets for home defense or urban combat against an unarmored opponent. It may not penetrate deeply, but I don't want to risk a pass-through in that kind of situation. Browse the YouTube test videos like this one - www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QhrX7b4-Dk or videos featuring ballistic gel. The wound is short, but really nasty. It would burst a bazillion capillaries. Do your own test like I did - Take about a one foot stack of newspapers and soak them thoroughly overnight (supposedly it's tougher than ballistic gel). Then fire something like V-Max or Z-Max into it and you're going to see a scary cavity. See if you don't think it could reach a heart or lung with a frontal shot.
How about through an arm, then sturmum? How about through a shoulder? Clear frontal shot, sure, but that situation is not sure to happen. Hunting, now you have to consider game. Do you want to blow up that rabbit u want to eat? Will you have a quartering to shot on a deer?
Edit: I see u r from FL, I may use 55 ballistic on FL deer- LOL.
Some friends and I recently shot through some thin AR500 with 55 and 60 gr VMax. It made the largest, but cleanest hole. I wouldn't hunt deer with them, but for self defense I wouldn't be afraid to use them at all.
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Skintop911
What type of 5.56 or .223 fo you use for deer? Load/ grain?
Do you take body shots or head/ neck shots?
Average weight/ species of deer taken and range of shots?
In a more ammo is better than perfect ammo thought process I got a hold of 2000 55gn zmax, which is the zombie vmax. Got them on closeout for the hell of it.
Loaded them with 25.3gn of h223, don't remember the chronological data, it's been a year or more, but they were smoking.
I shot a big roast that was freezer burnt. I thawed it. Placed it on a 1x6 between 2 blocks. The results supreised me. 3-4" entry and the meat EXPLODED! !! The roast was only 8-9inches long but it was probably 5-6" diameter. It blew the back side of the meat away. It also broke the 1x6.
While there wasnt 10,12,16" of penatration the wound in a human would be gruesome. I've gut and neck shot coyotes with the same round, they didn't do much after being shot. I have pics, but they're on a old phone. I was so impressed that I loaded all the projectiles, put them in magazines and put them up.
I wouldn't hesitate to use it even in deer, but it would totally destroy the meat. You push them fast enough,they'll do what you need. They wouldn't work with any sort of concealment, but I loaded the mags alternating Xm855 and the zmax/vmax.
Skintop911
What type of 5.56 or .223 fo you use for deer? Load/ grain?
Do you take body shots or head/ neck shots?
Average weight/ species of deer taken and range of shots?
Medium to large white tail and mule ranges 0-100yds, body shots. I've used a wide variety of loads over the years. Heavier, stouter bullets work best and placement is always pretty critical. Most recently, I've shot a few with the Speer GDSPs in both 55 and 64gr. I think I posted pics of recovered 64s here somewhere.
vicious_cb
01-09-15, 15:46
Medium to large white tail and mule ranges 0-100yds, body shots. I've used a wide variety of loads over the years. Heavier, stouter bullets work best and placement is always pretty critical. Most recently, I've shot a few with the Speer GDSPs in both 55 and 64gr. I think I posted pics of recovered 64s here somewhere.
Which have you found to be the better performer?
FloridaWoodsman
01-09-15, 16:39
How about through an arm, then sturmum? How about through a shoulder? Clear frontal shot, sure, but that situation is not sure to happen. Hunting, now you have to consider game. Do you want to blow up that rabbit u want to eat? Will you have a quartering to shot on a deer?
Edit: I see u r from FL, I may use 55 ballistic on FL deer- LOL.
The varmint rounds will go through a car door, so a sternum should be no problem. A full shoulder joint would probably stop it, but that arm would never be repaired and it would probably end the fight. Good for hunting? - NO - I don't like lead fragments in my food and they go everywhere with a varmint round. But as the name says, it's for varmints and will virtually explode them. However, if you're a good enough shot to knock the head off a rabbit, it might work (I used to be able to do that , but not with the high sights of the AR). For Florida deer, which weigh no more than me, I keep some 65 gr soft points around, but they seem to see me before I see them.
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