View Full Version : 5.56/.223 Appropriate? House w/Many Windows - Need to Minimize Risk to Neighbors
Powder_Burn
06-29-08, 13:46
I have been reading all over the net for a week but have not found information related to the effects of regular window pane glass on a 5.56/.223 round. I am planning to acquire a small carbine dedicated to indoor only home defense and want to minimize risk to my neighbors who live 15->30 yards away. The problem is that my house has more windows around the perimeter than brick/wallboard so I am concerned about collateral damage.
The question: Is there a 5.56/.223 round that would be at least as safe as other common home defense types when shot through standard window glass (9mm, .40, .45, 00 Buck etc)? I am looking for the best balance of performance/safety.
As an alternate option, I am also considering a house carbine in either 9mm or 5.7x28 but I didn't find information on the effects on glass on these either. I am open to SBR'ing an AR but would prefer to stay at 16" to avoid paperwork.
Jay Cunningham
06-29-08, 14:17
You may very well hear a lot of different opinions on your question. Here's mine:
You need to change your thinking. Get away from "what is the best bullet for if I miss" to "what is the best bullet when I hit". Choose a defensive round that will work well on a human target, invest in training (especially lowlight training) and then invest in a quality carbine equipped in such a fashion that will maximize your ability to make that critical shot.
Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it, and a window ain't gonna stop one.
My $.02.
Powder_Burn
06-29-08, 16:13
To your point, I agree good skills and quality equipment trump all. The nature of my question really is that while there are many adequate loads, I want the one that is the least lethal once it goes through a window. So for example, I like the Hornady 75gr TAP load and the Black Hills 77gr MatchKing. However, if I used a Speer 63gr soft point, I would assume it to be adequate as well and among the three, one is bound to be less lethal in a miss situation. The question is whether or not two 3mm layers of glass will disrupt any bullet in any caliber enough to make a difference.
blacktail 8541
06-29-08, 16:35
Your not going to find a 5.56 round that is less leathel after encountering just a pane or two of glass. Also glass has a tendency of makeing lite bullets deflect, so you may not be able to predict the path of the round after it penitrates the glass.
5.56 has a lot less energy if it encounters a wall or other such solid object.
You may think about finding a carbine in a pistol caliber that has glazier saftey slug or similar rounds availeable. That way you would have the carbine you want in a round that has little chance of doing collateral damage if you miss .
Powder_Burn
07-01-08, 12:19
From the responses, it looks like I might as well just assume the windows aren't even there and make decisions from there. In my situation, it looks like am headed down the road of a 9mm or .45 carbine. Pistol rounds are adequate in the 0->15 yard range while being somewhat less lethal beyond the perimeter of the house in a miss situation. Seems to be the best balance of performance/safety.
From the responses, it looks like I might as well just assume the windows aren't even there and make decisions from there. In my situation, it looks like am headed down the road of a 9mm or .45 carbine. Pistol rounds are adequate in the 0->15 yard range while being somewhat less lethal beyond the perimeter of the house in a miss situation. Seems to be the best balance of performance/safety.
Not sure you're correct here. A pistol round is affective way beyond 15 yards.
See if you can find locations in your house where you can engage a threat so that a wall is behind them and not a window. If you can change your angle of attach slightly you may be able to solve your problem. If you're shooting a rifle you should have a much better hit ratio at 15 yards than you will have with a pistol.
In my situation, it looks like am headed down the road of a 9mm or .45 carbine. ... Seems to be the best balance of performance/safety.
Not sure you're correct here. A pistol round is affective way beyond 15 yards.
See if you can find locations in your house where you can engage a threat so that a wall is behind them and not a window. If you can change your angle of attach slightly you may be able to solve your problem. If you're shooting a rifle you should have a much better hit ratio at 15 yards than you will have with a pistol.
He is thinking a PCR not a handgun and I doubt that the BGs will wait for him to choose a better angle for the shot.
A carbine will indeed offer a better hit ratio.
Powder_Burn, I think you may be over thinking this a bit but it is your house and you have to live with the consequences of your decisions.
Failure2Stop
07-02-08, 07:15
Bullets go through walls. Bullets go through windows. .45 ACP and 9mm will penetrate walls and windows with more remaining wounding capability than pretty much any 5.56.
Thekatar gave very good advice.
Don't linger on the over-pen argument, choose the most caipable ammo available. If you are unwilling to accept the very small probability that someone else may be injured due to your actions to protect your family, buy a bat.
buy a bat.
If the bat breaks, the barrel of the bat could fly off, bust through a window, and hurt a passing chipmunk! That's just too much liability risk.
blacktail 8541
07-02-08, 10:06
In my original post on this topic you should notice that I recomended a round for the carbine known as a glazier or similarsafty slug. They are known to not go thru walls or windows and have very little remaining energy as they are esentialy a jacket filled with bird shot that ruptuers after its first encounter with a solid object. Great for takeing care of bad guys but will limit your chance of injureing someone outside your home.
Those Glasiers are lighter, faster rounds that will probably deliver a shallow wound. I didn't know they still made those things. They could be lethal, but I've never heard of anyone recommending them for home defense or carry.
Typically, penetration with some expansion are desireable characteristics in a defensive load. Those Glasiers are more like a frangible than they are a real bullet.
Failure2Stop
07-02-08, 12:33
Glaser Safety Slug= NO GO
No credible expert in terminal ballistics reccommends them.
Jay Cunningham
07-02-08, 12:42
Your best bet is the best perfoming round against a human threat. That would generally be 75 gr. TAP or 77 gr. mk262, though xm193 seems to perform well, if a bit inconsistently.
I personally have 75 gr. TAP loaded in my HD carbine.
Gunfighter13
07-02-08, 13:37
Thekatar has given you the best advised. Get training and select a round that works well on human targets.
I also use 75gr TAP (red box) in my HD gun and at work. Department changed from Ranger soft points to the TAP 75gr HP about a year or so ago. Shooting investigation have shown that the department liability has been reduced by training and the use of TAP in our duty rifles. Handguns still hold the most liability connected to them. During some of the investigation we were unable to recover or account for some of the handgun rounds. That's bad, very bad.
blacktail 8541
07-02-08, 15:35
Those Glasiers are lighter, faster rounds that will probably deliver a shallow wound. I didn't know they still made those things. They could be lethal, but I've never heard of anyone recommending them for home defense or carry.
Typically, penetration with some expansion are desireable characteristics in a defensive load. Those Glasiers are more like a frangible than they are a real bullet.
I agree, but the OP gave a very narrow set of paramiters that he wanted to operate in. I suggested a course that would meet his paramiters.
I suggested a course that would meet his paramiters.
His parameters are founded in lunacy. :p
blacktail 8541
07-02-08, 15:54
LOL, Yes they are more than a bit narrow. I'm glad I will not have to operate under them.
Powder_Burn
07-02-08, 16:22
My goal is maximum lethality while minimizing collateral damage when/if possible. Based on these "wild and crazy" parameters, a best round does indeed exist for this situation ;) . Fortunately I received some quality responses that provided good options to look into.
snoopshoag
08-17-08, 11:37
If you are looking to maximize lethality in an indoor environment, while minimizing the possibility of hurting someone else via going through walls, glass etc., then a high velocity rifle is probably not your best bet. This type of rifle is primarily used for shooting mid to long range targets, and unless your house is 50-200 yards long, you really don't need the distance accuracy.
My suggestion for this type of scenario: buy yourself an inexpensive 12 gauge sawed-off shotgun, then cut the barrel down to about 3/4" longer than the shortest legal length in your state (I think it's 18" here in Wyoming, BUT MAKE ABSOLUTLY POSITIVE THAT THE BARREL IS LEGAL BY A FAIR MARGIN).
Not much will survive a direct shot from a shotgun at indoor range, but after passing through a wall 20 feet away, most of the BBs will have lost much of their momentum, minimizing risk to people on the other side of that wall.
Just a thought for you.
Jay Cunningham
08-17-08, 11:44
If you are looking to maximize lethality in an indoor environment, while minimizing the possibility of hurting someone else via going through walls, glass etc., then a high velocity rifle is probably not your best bet. This type of rifle is primarily used for shooting mid to long range targets, and unless your house is 50-200 yards long, you really don't need the distance accuracy.
My suggestion for this type of scenario: buy yourself an inexpensive 12 gauge sawed-off shotgun, then cut the barrel down to about 3/4" longer than the shortest legal length in your state (I think it's 18" here in Wyoming, BUT MAKE ABSOLUTLY POSITIVE THAT THE BARREL IS LEGAL BY A FAIR MARGIN).
Not much will survive a direct shot from a shotgun at indoor range, but after passing through a wall 20 feet away, most of the BBs will have lost much of their momentum, minimizing risk to people on the other side of that wall.
Just a thought for you.
snoopshoag,
Welcome to M4C. I know that you are trying to help and that what you recommended makes sense to you in your own mind but what you recommended is very poor advice, for several reasons.
snoopshoag
08-17-08, 12:00
snoopshoag,
I know that you are trying to help and that what you recommended makes sense to you in your own mind but what you recommended is very poor advice, for several reasons.
Not that I don't trust your judgement, you've obviously been doing this a while and know what you're talking about. I'm just curious about what some of those reasons are? I can understand that an untrained individual trying to cut down their own shotgun would be problematic, but other than that, where is my logic flawed?
I am genuinly curious and not trying to be rude.
Also, thanks for the welcome!
Most 223/556 rounds destabilize when penetrating typical building materials and provide less overpentration potential than typical handgun cartridges, etc.
RogerinTPA
08-17-08, 18:10
They still had them in a gunstore I was in on friday. I don't know if it was current production or not. My range sells MagSafe, which is along the same type of ammo.
Those Glasiers are lighter, faster rounds that will probably deliver a shallow wound. I didn't know they still made those things. They could be lethal, but I've never heard of anyone recommending them for home defense or carry.
Typically, penetration with some expansion are desireable characteristics in a defensive load. Those Glasiers are more like a frangible than they are a real bullet.
Jay Cunningham
08-17-08, 19:58
If you are looking to maximize lethality in an indoor environment, while minimizing the possibility of hurting someone else via going through walls, glass etc., then a high velocity rifle is probably not your best bet. This type of rifle is primarily used for shooting mid to long range targets, and unless your house is 50-200 yards long, you really don't need the distance accuracy.
My suggestion for this type of scenario: buy yourself an inexpensive 12 gauge sawed-off shotgun, then cut the barrel down to about 3/4" longer than the shortest legal length in your state (I think it's 18" here in Wyoming, BUT MAKE ABSOLUTLY POSITIVE THAT THE BARREL IS LEGAL BY A FAIR MARGIN).
Not much will survive a direct shot from a shotgun at indoor range, but after passing through a wall 20 feet away, most of the BBs will have lost much of their momentum, minimizing risk to people on the other side of that wall.
Just a thought for you.
I am not a shotgun expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I will give my opinion.
The 5.56mm rounds (in their most common incarnations) will fragment before they sail through multiple walls. Pistol bullets and shotgun buckshot has a tendency to sail through walls.
A 5.56mm carbine is MUCH more precise than an 18" barrel shotgun, holds more ammunition, is lighter and more compact with negligible recoil.
That is not to say that a shotgun cannot be an effective weapon, but there is a reason that you do not see CAG, HRT and SWAT teams all armed with shotguns performing entries...
I have been reading all over the net for a week but have not found information related to the effects of regular window pane glass on a 5.56/.223 round. I am planning to acquire a small carbine dedicated to indoor only home defense and want to minimize risk to my neighbors who live 15->30 yards away. The problem is that my house has more windows around the perimeter than brick/wallboard so I am concerned about collateral damage.
The question: Is there a 5.56/.223 round that would be at least as safe as other common home defense types when shot through standard window glass (9mm, .40, .45, 00 Buck etc)? I am looking for the best balance of performance/safety.
As an alternate option, I am also considering a house carbine in either 9mm or 5.7x28 but I didn't find information on the effects on glass on these either. I am open to SBR'ing an AR but would prefer to stay at 16" to avoid paperwork.
Preparation for home defense is determined by the THREAT that you are anticipating,and you are the only one that knows what that is.
Here is something to think about.
The BG's will be shooting real bullets too and probably more than you. Do you think that they will be concerned about collateral damage? They will have no mercy on you, your neighbors or anything tha gets in their way.
If you can't take them out fast, you won't be around long enough to estimate any collateral damage.
Second, if you decide to go with a shotgun, dont monkey around with a hacksaw, just get you an 18" barrel gun like the Remington 870 Police.
Just my opinion, but I think it's better to be overprepared then under prepared.
You may very well hear a lot of different opinions on your question. Here's mine:
You need to change your thinking. Get away from "what is the best bullet for if I miss" to "what is the best bullet when I hit". Choose a defensive round that will work well on a human target, invest in training (especially lowlight training) and then invest in a quality carbine equipped in such a fashion that will maximize your ability to make that critical shot.
Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it, and a window ain't gonna stop one.
My $.02.
TheActivePatriot
08-26-08, 08:04
5.56mm rounds will have less energy and less wounding potential after penetrating an obstacle (wall, window, etc) than almost any handgun or shotgun round, and will have better terminal performance in an intruder than most handgun calibers.
Which LE group was it that replaced their pistol caliber subguns with 5.56 carbines for overpenetration reasons? I remember reading about that somewhere - I'm thinking some city in CA, but I'm not positive on the location.
Which LE group was it that replaced their pistol caliber subguns with 5.56 carbines for overpenetration reasons? I remember reading about that somewhere - I'm thinking some city in CA, but I'm not positive on the location.
The local metro SWAT team in my AO is ditching their UMP-40's in favor of SBR 5.56. Reason: most recently a 180-gr .40 went through an interior wall, an exterior wall, the exterior wall of a house next door, and through the headboard of a bed in said house.
:eek:
In my original post on this topic you should notice that I recomended a round for the carbine known as a glazier or similarsafty slug. They are known to not go thru walls or windows and have very little remaining energy as they are esentialy a jacket filled with bird shot that ruptuers after its first encounter with a solid object. Great for takeing care of bad guys but will limit your chance of injureing someone outside your home.
Run away, screaming, from Glaser Safety Slugs and anything resembling them.
Many moons ago I was on a road trip overnight and the driver of the car hit a dog that was in the roadway. We stopped to check on the dog and found it miraculously standing some distance away on the shoulder of the road. I say miraculously because it was hit straight on at about 60 mph. Anyway, the dog was in really bad shape and we were in the middle of nowhere so, I decided to put it down. I got my Ruger .357 Mag from the car and, from about 5 feet, put a .357 Magnum Glaser Safety Slug into the dogs left eye. It stood there and started making a horrible howling sound. The only thing the Glaser had done was blow out the eye. I quickly got some Silvertips loaded and put the dog out of its misery.
No more gimmick rounds for me.
Given the widespread availability of this information for over a decade, I am shockingly surprised to still hear people complaining that 5.56 mm carbines are dangerous for CQB because of "overpenetration". In this day and age anyone who is spouting this BS needs to be horsewhipped... Several respected organizations have done interior wall testing, including the FBI, CHP, and IWBA. In our IWBA and CHP testing, replicas of standard construction interior walls were fabricated using two pieces of 1/2” thick dry wall cut in 12” x 24” segments and mounted four inches apart using 2 x 4” fir studs and 1.5” dry wall screws. Five rounds of each load were first fired into bare gelatin to serve as controls. Then 5 shots of each load were shot through interior wall segments into gelatin blocks placed a set distance behind the intermediate barriers--various distances have been tested, typically ranging from 1 to 10 feet.
Generally, common service caliber JHP bullets failed to expand and had very deep, excessive penetration after passing through the interior wall, due to plugging of the hollow point. With the hollow point plugged, the bullets performed nearly identically to FMJ pistol bullets. The terminal performance of the 12 ga. 00 buckshot and slugs was not altered by passing through interior wall replicas, with penetration and deformation nearly identical with their performance in bare gelatin. Likewise, .308 rounds were not usually effected by the presence of an interior wall intermediate barrier.
With one exception, the majority of the 5.56 mm/.223 loads, including M855 62 gr "green-tip" FMJ, which were fired through interior walls demonstrated either minimal changes in terminal performance compared with bare gelatin or reduced penetration. The major exception were 55 gr M193 style FMJ projectiles which exhibited minimal fragmentation and deformation after first passing through interior wall replicas and hence penetrated deeper than in bare gel. Since all of the 5.56 mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56 mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. As such, 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and crowded urban environments than service caliber handguns or 12 ga. weapons.
Obviously, it is important to keep in mind that purpose built barrier blind 5.56 mm/.223 projectiles, such as the 55 & 62 gr Federal Tactical JSP’s and the Nosler 60 gr Partition, will offer deeper penetration than fragmenting designs and may exit suspects.
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1620135812171.jpg
Likewise, plenty of information has been generated about glass--obviously laminated vehicle windshields and thick commercial glass cause more issues than thinner residential window panes--in any event, even a cursory review of FBI protocol intermediate barrier testing clearly reveals what a difficult intermediate barrier glass can be.
Glaser Safety Slugs...Ugh--Let me go poke my eyes out now!
This is the first time I am seeing this graph, and I can't help but ask few questions.
First, considering listed velocities, this data shouldn't be generalizable to a majority of SBRs, should it? I guess this underscores an importance of appropriate projectiles/loads when using short rifles.
Second, the way I read this graph is that if one wants to shoot a perp through an intermediate barrier, then 5.56 loads are distinctly advantageous in reducing overpenetration. However, if one takes an unobstructed shot at the perp and misses with bullet going through a wall and hitting a bystander, the 5.56 round will still fragment, while pistol JHP is unlikely to expand. So, from the standpoint of terminal ballistics imparted to a bystander behind the intermediate barrier, would then JHP be, for the lack of better term, "safer"? Or did I twist the logic somehow?
Twisted logic--exactly opposite of want the info is stating.
The handgun JHP's keep on going after first penetrating a barrier.
The 5.56 mm loads fragment and have reduced penetration and terminal effects.
If you need to shoot at bad guys behind barriers, use barrier blind ammo...
CarlosDJackal
08-28-08, 15:30
First of all, everything is a compromise. There is no magic BB and there is no perfect Red Ryder lever-action rifle with a built-in compass in its walnut stock.
If you don't care about over-penetration and chance of your shot hitting a loved one or a neighbor, then by all means ignore the information that has been pointed out by the other posters and go with your decision to use a pistol-caliber carbine.
There is a reason why SWAT Teams from around the country is getting rid of their sub guns and pistol-caliber carbines in favor of AR-type weapons in .223/5.56. It's not the cost of ammo or the cool factor.
There have been plenty of documented results from actual use and tests of how the .223/5.56 round is the closest we have to that magic BB for CQB use both in this thread as well as other threads and forums. All you have to do is look and keep an open mind about it. JM2CW.
Or did I twist the logic somehow?
You'd make a HELL of a Liberal with that twisted logic! :p
"Before I came here, I was confused on this topic. Having listened to your lecture, I am still confused, but on a higher level" - credited to Enrique Fermi; my quote is not exact.
The next quote is exact, however:
With one exception, the majority of the 5.56 mm/.223 loads, including M855 62 gr "green-tip" FMJ, which were fired through interior walls demonstrated either minimal changes in terminal performance compared with bare gelatin or reduced penetration.
The next question is obvious: is one supposed to conclude that overpenetrating and nonexpanded JHP present a higher threat than those 5.56/.223 loads whose terminal performance is only minimally changed after going through an intermediate barrier?
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
That's right, after going through intermediate barriers, 5.56 mm loads had LESS penetration than any other type of projectile while the duty handgun loads had MORE penetration than any other type of projectile...
Got it, cool, this nails it for me.
I have one more, I hope you don't mind; this is more of a general education:
For fragmenting rounds like 5.56/.223, what distance on the graph is defined as penetration? I am going to answer it myself using your graph above; just let me know the right answer:
- penetration of pistol JHPs appears to be between 55 and 60 cm
- .308 AMAX - about 40 cm
- 5.56/.223 loads - 12 cm or so ???? Or is it about 20 cm (the distance of most penetrating fragment)?
Lots of folks seem to have difficulty in interpreting and assessing gelatin test shots and the associated wound profiles, especially from rifles.
Assuming properly prepared, calibrated, and sized gel blocks:
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1424105328171.jpg
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