Changes to New Noveske Gen III Rifles [Archive]

FourT6and2

01-04-15, 21:31

Just got a second Noveske. A new (December, 2014 build) Gen III Recon. I've noticed a few changes compared to my other Gen III that was built in April, 2014. I am NOT complaining about these changes. I am merely noting them.

New roll marks on upper receiver and hand guard:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2015/004/1/e/untitled_by_haftelm-d8cldsc.jpg

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2015/004/1/9/untitled_by_haftelm-d8cldsw.jpg

Lower now has a tensioning screw, like Mega and Rainier Arms:

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2015/004/7/f/untitled_by_haftelm-d8clds3.jpg

And the picatinny rail's edges are now scalloped for some reason...

OLD:

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2015/004/3/7/untitled_by_haftelm-d8cnrfx.jpg

NEW:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2015/004/4/3/untitled_by_haftelm-d8cnrg9.jpg

.46caliber

01-04-15, 23:01

steyrman13

01-04-15, 23:02

The scalloping is seen on DD rails too. I like it. It also shaves some weight I imagine

Onyx Z

01-04-15, 23:57

Yeah, I've seen the scalloping before. It's probably to shave weight like said above. I really like how the upper receivers are the same profile as the NSR's. Nice touch.

FourT6and2

01-05-15, 00:43

Interesting stuff. I don't know how I feel about the scalloping. Is the NSR scalloped like that? Don't care for the Noveske on the upper. SIG also does a tensioning screw like that.

Thanks for sharing. Full photos?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Yes, the NSR is also scalloped on the new rifle. It is not on the older one.

At this time I do not have a full photo of the new rifle. But from a distance it looks exactly like my other one (except for the scope and different barrel—my new one is stainless, other one is CHF):

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2014/338/5/5/noveske_kahles_2_by_haftelm-d88pufj.jpg

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/338/b/c/noveske_kahles_4_by_haftelm-d88puf4.jpg

The scalloping is seen on DD rails too. I like it. It also shaves some weight I imagine

I'm no expert, but I doubt it reduces weight in any appreciable amount. I'd guess MAYBE... 25-50 grams at most? It's not a lot of material.

Yeah, I've seen the scalloping before. It's probably to shave weight like said above. I really like how the upper receivers are the same profile as the NSR's. Nice touch.

Yeah, that's part of why I went with Noveske. Yes, it's a gun and a tool. But I have an appreciation for good design and I like how the hand guard's profile blends nicely into the receiver. That's also why I dislike the new NOVESKE type on the upper. It's too big and quite gaudy.

BurntMetal

01-05-15, 00:45

This is the last part I'm looking for, a Noveske GenIII Upper Receiver but the first models without all the roll marks, I already have a 16.7" NSR and nothing else will fit it better then this. My second option was a Mega. Just found out they do not sell just the upper so I may just have to buy a complete and use the parts on another one.

steyrman13

01-05-15, 00:48

I'm no expert, but I doubt it reduces weight in any appreciable amount. I'd guess MAYBE... 25-50 grams at most? It's not a lot of material.
.

Im not saying much at all. But you know these ounce counters we have here. I can't imagine what benefit it would create other than weight because it would increase machining time I'm sure. It looks nicer than a straight line too I guess.

FourT6and2

01-05-15, 01:23

Im not saying much at all. But you know these ounce counters we have here. I can't imagine what benefit it would create other than weight because it would increase machining time I'm sure. It looks nicer than a straight line too I guess.

Yeah, it does look nicer. Not sure why Noveske chose to make the change though. As you say, it probably increases machine time and labor. Same with the tension screw.

BurntMetal

01-05-15, 02:09

Yeah, it does look nicer. Not sure why Noveske chose to make the change though. As you say, it probably increases machine time and labor. Same with the tension screw.

Because the details count and we pay top dollar for parts with thought, detail and aesthetics.

VLODPG

01-05-15, 05:38

Yeah, it does look nicer. Not sure why Noveske chose to make the change though. As you say, it probably increases machine time and labor. Same with the tension screw.

Because the laser engraved "Noveske" on the right side of the upper is not enough to identify mfg?

IMO,As far as the tension screw, the lower receiver machining specifications can be a bit more liberal & any slop can be taken up with the screw.

In either case, I'm not a fan of the changes.

Slippers

01-05-15, 07:08

The scalloping isn't for weight reduction. It makes the rail *much* more comfortable to hold. A couple of my NSRs have pic rails on top that are like razor blades they're so sharp. Scalloping takes care of this. I'm sure Noveske added it to the upper receiver purely to match the way it looks on the NSR.

markm

01-05-15, 07:52

I'm not a fan of those tensioning gizmos. I take them out/don't install them if I have a lower with that feature.

That's a nice looking gun though.

MikeDawg46L

01-05-15, 08:43

I like the new roll marks. They may be a little beyond subtle but they are not overboard. At least they are not factory paint-filled.

I currently have a gen 1 factory built 14.5" and a self-built 16" SS gen 2. I'd love to add one of the gen 3 models to the stable but don't see a need for another rifle in the near future as these two currently fill my needs.

They are beautiful rifles though.

Tapatalk'd

FourT6and2

01-05-15, 10:01

Because the laser engraved "Noveske" on the right side of the upper is not enough to identify mfg?

IMO,As far as the tension screw, the lower receiver machining specifications can be a bit more liberal & any slop can be taken up with the screw.

In either case, I'm not a fan of the changes.

Yes, with the tension screw, tolerances can be sloppier. The gap between the upper and lower on this rifle is much larger than my other one. The screw is a band-aid fix in my opinion and lets them get away with looser fitting receivers. Not a big deal at the end of the day—there is no wobble or rattle or anything (because of the screw). But it's weird to me Noveske would choose to do this. Easier to manufacture? Quicker? Less labor? I don't know. I doubt it was customer demand. Because with tight fitting receivers, there shouldn't be a need for a tensioning screw in the first place. But maybe over time and with wear on the mating surfaces, the receivers loosen up? Again, I'm just guessing. And I'm not complaining. I'm ok with it I guess. The rifle works. :)

Onyx Z

01-05-15, 10:45

Yes, with the tension screw, tolerances can be sloppier. The gap between the upper and lower on this rifle is much larger than my other one. The screw is a band-aid fix in my opinion and lets them get away with looser fitting receivers. Not a big deal at the end of the day—there is no wobble or rattle or anything (because of the screw). But it's weird to me Noveske would choose to do this. Easier to manufacture? Quicker? Less labor? I don't know. I doubt it was customer demand. Because with tight fitting receivers, there shouldn't be a need for a tensioning screw in the first place. But maybe over time and with wear on the mating surfaces, the receivers loosen up? Again, I'm just guessing. And I'm not complaining. I'm ok with it I guess. The rifle works. :)

Most likely it is so the lower receiver can accept a wide variety of uppers rather than being custom fit to a single lower. With that, My Noveske MUR and Gen2 lower fit pretty snug when together, but require very little effort to disassemble. And they were both purchased separately as components. Maybe I just got lucky.

FourT6and2

01-05-15, 10:47

Most likely it is so the lower receiver can accept a wide variety of uppers rather than being custom fit to a single lower. With that, My Noveske MUR and Gen2 lower fit pretty snug when together, but require very little effort to disassemble.

Makes sense. Just seems like a step backward in the fit/finish department to me. But if it works, it works.

BufordTJustice

01-05-15, 11:01

Pic links are broken for me.

FourT6and2

01-05-15, 11:02

Pic links are broken for me.

Work for me... They aren't broken as far as I can tell.

Thump_rrr

01-05-15, 11:53

FourT6and2

01-05-15, 12:19

I built a Gen I Afghan with a 13.5" NSR and I'm in the process of completing 2 other Gen II's.
The first Gen II has an 11" NSR on an 8.5" barrel and a KX-5 burried in the hand guard. (Barrel on the way)
The second Gen II is an 18" for 3 Gun and I've been looking for a 16.7" NSR for nearly a year without success.

Anybody know where I can pick up a 16.7" NSR?

Go to Noveske's website. Click on the dealer link. Start at A, and work your way to Z. Give 'em all a call and ask if they have any in stock.

BurntMetal

01-05-15, 14:56

I built a Gen I Afghan with a 13.5" NSR and I'm in the process of completing 2 other Gen II's.
The first Gen II has an 11" NSR on an 8.5" barrel and a KX-5 burried in the hand guard. (Barrel on the way)
The second Gen II is an 18" for 3 Gun and I've been looking for a 16.7" NSR for nearly a year without success.

Anybody know where I can pick up a 16.7" NSR?

I just picked my 16.7" NSR up from Midway, they get them in stock every 2-3 weeks and I had my notification up for "In Stock". They usually sell out in 1 day so if you missed the E-mail you might have to reinstate the notifications. Took me 3 tries to get my hands on one.

gotuinmysights

01-05-15, 15:25

You are correct , I used to work for a major firearm manufacture before being laid off . Most manufacture have different vendors making there lowers and uppers or if they run short they have back up vendors . They got tired of customers calling up and saying my upper is loose and has to much slop . Placing the adjustment screw or the (band aid which it truly is ) will stop the customers from calling . More and more manufactures are going to be doing this in the future.

Thump_rrr

01-05-15, 17:19

I just picked my 16.7" NSR up from Midway, they get them in stock every 2-3 weeks and I had my notification up for "In Stock". They usually sell out in 1 day so if you missed the E-mail you might have to reinstate the notifications. Took me 3 tries to get my hands on one.
Unfortunately MidwayUSA doesn't ship to your northern neighbors.

FourT6and2

01-05-15, 17:47

TehLlama

01-05-15, 22:20

I thought noveske machines all their receivers in-house? I figured they just loosened up their tolerances for whatever reason and compensated with the screw.

I don't doubt they have the capability, but it's probably easier/smarter if partners elsewhere in the industry already making stuff that either meets or can have a proprietary to NR variant of that would make parts, and that's probably the thing that accounts for most of the variations in Noveske complete rifles over time.

I can see the internal derp screw having value to enough people it makes sense to install - for my part the ONLY thing about my pile of GenII lowers is that they're picky about which uppers they assemble/disassemble without tools on, because the fitment is really tight and devoid of slop.

BurntMetal

01-05-15, 22:25

Unfortunately MidwayUSA doesn't ship to your northern neighbors.

Really?! I thought CA had the worst antishooter laws or restrictions but I guess not in some ways!

Onyx Z

01-05-15, 22:41

I thought noveske machines all their receivers in-house? I figured they just loosened up their tolerances for whatever reason and compensated with the screw.

Gen3 is supposedly done in house. Gen2 was not.

WS6

01-06-15, 00:26

I'm not a fan of those tensioning gizmos. I take them out/don't install them if I have a lower with that feature.

That's a nice looking gun though.

The manufacturers I know who do that do it for people who will mix/match uppers to their lowers. It allows a Colt upper that might otherwise be a bit loose, to be tight, for those who care. I doubt Noveske even uses the tensioning screws. Their uppers and lowers should fit without undue "wiggle" just fine, considering they now machine both in house, I believe. Manufacturers that I know who use them simply back them out and leave them there "as an easter-egg" for the above listed reason. Don't fiddle with other uppers? Leave it be. Do? Leave it be or use it. Your call.

For $24-2700, though, I think that tensioning screws that provide OPTIONS at zero functionality cost, scallops, etc. are par for the course and need to be included.

I personally feel like the Noveske Gen III is a great looking piece, as well. Mostly because like others said, the rail/upper interface is so aesthetically pleasing.

Another thing I would note is that they seem to be working on trimming the weight down on their rifles. I really REALLY like that.

I have not yet gotten my Noveske back from Noveske, to comment on function, but their customer service has thus far taken care of me. I had a CS issue that spanned John Noveske's passing, and Tim's taking over of Noveske. Thus far, I have been treated politely, and noone has dropped a ball. It took a while to get rolling, but I have been very pleased with how they have kept it rolling through the management changes. I look forward to getting my Noveske back, and seeing how she does! (The ATF has been the slow-down, here. It has not taken Noveske THAT long to replace my weapon. ATF paperwork is stick in the mud).

WS6

01-06-15, 00:30

I don't doubt they have the capability, but it's probably easier/smarter if partners elsewhere in the industry already making stuff that either meets or can have a proprietary to NR variant of that would make parts, and that's probably the thing that accounts for most of the variations in Noveske complete rifles over time.

I can see the internal derp screw having value to enough people it makes sense to install - for my part the ONLY thing about my pile of GenII lowers is that they're picky about which uppers they assemble/disassemble without tools on, because the fitment is really tight and devoid of slop.

The Gen II guns were out of house. Uppers from VLTOR, lowers from...someone else.
The Gen II lowers have caused Noveske considerable grief, and myself as well. I would guess that Noveske went to the Gen III changes because it allowed EVERYTHING to be made in-house so that out of spec lowers are not something that Noveske has to hold others accountable---and take the hit---for. They can control that and make sure they are made to spec. VLTOR uppers are also no-longer a supply choke-point, either, as Noveske makes their own.

I am very happy to see Noveske making chips in the machine shop. I think that quality and consistency is going to show that this was a good move for everyone.

I thought noveske machines all their receivers in-house? I figured they just loosened up their tolerances for whatever reason and compensated with the screw.

I bet their tolerances are tighter than ever. You meant to say CLEARANCES, I believe. However, I am thinking they are probably dead-on within mil-spec, with the very tight tolerances that CNC allows, and that Noveske does what others do and just backs the tensioning screw all the way off, because the upper and lower CNC'ed in the same "house" should in no-way need a tensioning screw to not flop around. It's there for mix/match/lower-only sales (and why have 2 lowers, one for individual sale, one for complete rifles?)

WS6

01-06-15, 00:37

Yes, with the tension screw, tolerances can be sloppier. The gap between the upper and lower on this rifle is much larger than my other one. The screw is a band-aid fix in my opinion and lets them get away with looser fitting receivers. Not a big deal at the end of the day—there is no wobble or rattle or anything (because of the screw). But it's weird to me Noveske would choose to do this. Easier to manufacture? Quicker? Less labor? I don't know. I doubt it was customer demand. Because with tight fitting receivers, there shouldn't be a need for a tensioning screw in the first place. But maybe over time and with wear on the mating surfaces, the receivers loosen up? Again, I'm just guessing. And I'm not complaining. I'm ok with it I guess. The rifle works. :)

My fault for replying before I saw this on the bottom of page #2.

Are you saying they actually used the tensioning screw to achieve fitment on a complete gun?

FourT6and2

01-06-15, 00:42

I doubt Noveske even uses the tensioning screws. Their uppers and lowers should fit without undue "wiggle" just fine, considering they now machine both in house, I believe. Manufacturers that I know who use them simply back them out and leave them there "as an easter-egg" for the above listed reason. Don't fiddle with other uppers? Leave it be. Do? Leave it be or use it. Your call.

I bet their tolerances are tighter than ever. You meant to say CLEARANCES, I believe. However, I am thinking they are probably dead-on within mil-spec, with the very tight tolerances that CNC allows, and that Noveske does what others do and just backs the tensioning screw all the way off, because the upper and lower CNC'ed in the same "house" should in no-way need a tensioning screw to not flop around. It's there for mix/match/lower-only sales (and why have 2 lowers, one for individual sale, one for complete rifles?)

The tensioning screw in my rifle is not backed out. It is making contact with the upper's lug. I don't know if it's actually doing anything though. I haven't backed it out yet to see. But I will tomorrow after my range trip. Either way, I'm not too concerned.

One thing that I did also notice when mounting my scope to this new rifle is that on my other Noveske, the Bobro mount digs into the rail due to the added thickness from the cerakote. On this new one, it doesn't happen. So there is slightly more clearance between the lugs of the rail. Either they changed their coating as well, or they changed the dimensions of the rail ever so slightly. Or just variations in the finish process.

JG007

01-06-15, 16:09

I'd still like one, but I think it's interesting that other companies are viewed negatively for the tension screw and/or billet.

FourT6and2

01-06-15, 19:39

Singlestack Wonder

01-06-15, 20:28

I'd still like one, but I think it's interesting that other companies are viewed negatively for the tension screw and/or billet.

I too was surprised with the tensioning screw. Adds a point of failure and a feature not needed on serious use rifles.

WS6

01-06-15, 20:38

I too was surprised with the tensioning screw. Adds a point of failure and a feature not needed on serious use rifles.

I strongly disagree.

What failure point does it offer, realistically?

While not needed, what utility does it REMOVE?

MikeDawg46L

01-06-15, 21:00

I feel like they may have loosened tolerances on the lower to make it more "compatible" with various uppers and added the tension screw to snug it up to the users's preference.

How many years have we all read threads related to some dude's "new Noveske lower had to be hammered onto their upper"?

Tapatalk'd

FourT6and2

01-06-15, 21:53

For anybody interested, here are my best targets from this rifle's first trip to the range. All shots @ 100 yards with Black Hills 77gr OTM, used a front beanbag perch thing to prop the rifle up.

Best group. Not sure how big it is. Each square is 1/4", so it looks to be sub-MOA I guess.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/006/5/b/best_group_01_06_15_by_haftelm-d8cwxst.jpg

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/006/7/8/photo_5_by_haftelm-d8cwxsq.jpg

This was my first target from sighting in my scope. Each square here is 1/2"

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/006/d/3/photo_7_by_haftelm-d8cwxs7.jpg

http://haftelm.deviantart.com/art/Photo-1-505421579?q=in%3Ascraps%20sort%3Atime%20gallery%3Ahaftelm&qo=1

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/006/4/4/photo_2_by_haftelm-d8cwxsj.jpg

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/006/8/0/photo_3_by_haftelm-d8cwxsm.jpg

Onyx Z

01-06-15, 21:59

Looks to be a nice shooter!

Singlestack Wonder

01-06-15, 22:55

I strongly disagree.

What failure point does it offer, realistically?

While not needed, what utility does it REMOVE?

If the tip breaks off (or the nylon tip split and come loose) the trigger mechanism could be compromised.

WS6

01-07-15, 01:53

If the tip breaks off (or the nylon tip split and come loose) the trigger mechanism could be compromised.

If you back it off like noveske should be doing that's a non issue. However...this allows the end user to determine that risk. You don't have to use it.

polymorpheous

01-07-15, 02:06

The scallop cuts between the rails are to reduce a stress point.

SkiDevil

01-07-15, 04:12

I just got back from the range and this gun shoots great. Much more accurate than my other one. But then again, this one has the stainless barrel with polygonal rifling. I'm not the best shot because I'm relatively new to shooting AR15s. But all my 10-shot groups were around 1.5-1.75 MOA @ 100 yards, with Black Hills 77gr OTM. I got a few sub-MOA groups as well. But those were only three shots each, so don't really count. I did also swap out the stock trigger for a Wilson Combat TTU M2 when I got the rifle.

I haven't gotten around to cleaning it yet. And when I do, I'll check that tensioning screw to see if it's actually making the receiver-fit tighter or not. Will post back tomorrow.

I also noticed the finish on the hand guard is different compared to my other rifle. The other one has a slight textured finish that is darker. It is "black." The finish on the new rifle's hand guard is not "black." It matches the finish on the receivers. And it's smooth, not textured.

All of this stuff is minor. Just things I'm noticing. And thought it was interesting, considering the rifles were both built 8 months apart.

I am another Noveske Gen II owner as well. I like the look of the new rifles as well. I don't know if I will pick-up a Gen III, but it is certainly a possibility in the future.

We used to have a company representative here on the board but I don't believe that is the case any longer. Have you considered sending an e-mail over to the office inquiring regarding the changes to the Gen III?

Lastly, l have the 16" Recon barrel and mine seems to love 55gr .223 rounds. So, I would definitely try a few different loads in that rifle. It has been one of the most accurate rifles that I have ever owned (6K rounds and counting).

If you have not read-over the recommended maintenance instructions, I would strongly recommend using a bore-guide for cleaning the barrel. I also only use brass jags, cleaning brushes, and Dewey coated rods too. The first couple of times I used a .22 rimfire brush to start-out because the barrel is tight with the centerfire version. I noticed this on my 14.5 Afghan barrel as well. Those rifles should serve you well for many years. The only complaint I have ever heard from people I have met who shoot/ own the stainless models is regarding the weight. I don't care about the weight, however I am sure that the new slim rails do help.

Enjoy your new rifle. :D

FourT6and2

01-07-15, 12:56

I am another Noveske Gen II owner as well. I like the look of the new rifles as well. I don't know if I will pick-up a Gen III, but it is certainly a possibility in the future.

We used to have a company representative here on the board but I don't believe that is the case any longer. Have you considered sending an e-mail over to the office inquiring regarding the changes to the Gen III?

Lastly, l have the 16" Recon barrel and mine seems to love 55gr .223 rounds. So, I would definitely try a few different loads in that rifle. It has been one of the most accurate rifles that I have ever owned (6K rounds and counting).

If you have not read-over the recommended maintenance instructions, I would strongly recommend using a bore-guide for cleaning the barrel. I also only use brass jags, cleaning brushes, and Dewey coated rods too. The first couple of times I used a .22 rimfire brush to start-out because the barrel is tight with the centerfire version. I noticed this on my 14.5 Afghan barrel as well. Those rifles should serve you well for many years. The only complaint I have ever heard from people I have met who shoot/ own the stainless models is regarding the weight. I don't care about the weight, however I am sure that the new slim rails do help.

Enjoy your new rifle. :D

I did send an email to Noveske. But haven't heard back yet. I believe the CS rep is on vacation until the 12th or something.

I need to clarify that both of my rifles are Gen III (3), not Gen II (2).

And yes, I use a bore guide and a Coated rod. I use a nylon brush for the bore. And brass jags. :)

I haven't weighed either rifle. But they feel about the same. The stainless barrel is heavier on paper. But meh... they don't seem noticeably different from one another in the hand.

Trajan

01-08-15, 09:14

FourT6and2

01-08-15, 10:24

IMO if you're going to drop the coin on a gen 3, these nice little touches are appreciated. I think the Noveske logo on the side as well as matching profile with the NSR is nice.

We are talking about a $2500 - $3000 AR here. More than a BCM EAG or HSP, more than an SR-15E2, twice the price of a BCM Recce KMR Mk2.....

Yeah, I have no problem with any of the changes. Well except for the large NOVESKE on the upper. That's little ugly for my taste. But the matching finish on the NSR is a welcome change. As well as the scalloped rail. The tensioning screw is whatever. I could take it or leave it. Overall, this rifle is better, I think, than my other one.

Also the cheapest I've found one is $2200 or so.

FourT6and2

01-08-15, 14:42

Just discovered ANOTHER change.

The NSR rail design is different. Doesn't have that little circle thing anymore. And you can see the difference in the finishes here as well.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/008/e/b/nsr_change_by_haftelm-d8d3xr5.jpg

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/008/4/e/nsr_change_2_by_haftelm-d8d3xr2.jpg

Singlestack Wonder

01-08-15, 15:15

At this point, other than a much higher cost, Noveske has zero advantages over BCM.

MikeDawg46L

01-08-15, 15:42

At this point, other than a much higher cost, Noveske has zero advantages over BCM.

I appreciate BCM as a company and their commitment to quality as much as anyone, but I respectfully disagree with this statement.

BCM still, for the most part, has mass machined receivers albeit to tighter tolerances and better finish. Noveske are refined and use a different manufacturing process and finishing process, costing more to produce. Their SS barrels are from one of the most respected match grade barrel producers in the world, and finished in house. All these things add up, not to mention the nice little touches here and there that some can appreciate, but may not matter to others.

Are both great rifle platforms and made to higher standards than a lot of other rifles on the market? Sure they are.

And a Mustang and a Porsche both will get you to grocery store hella quick, but one has a ton more engineering and manufacturing time involved, hence costing hella more. That's maybe not the best analogy but I hope you get the point.

To say that a BCM and Gen3 Noveske are truly equal is a bit misleading. A Gen1 would be a more realistic and fair comparison.

Tapatalk'd

Wake27

01-08-15, 16:55

I appreciate BCM as a company and their commitment to quality as much as anyone, but I respectfully disagree with this statement.

BCM still, for the most part, has mass machined receivers albeit to tighter tolerances and better finish. Noveske are refined and use a different manufacturing process and finishing process, costing more to produce. Their SS barrels are from one of the most respected match grade barrel producers in the world, and finished in house. All these things add up, not to mention the nice little touches here and there that some can appreciate, but may not matter to others.

Are both great rifle platforms and made to higher standards than a lot of other rifles on the market? Sure they are.

And a Mustang and a Porsche both will get you to grocery store hella quick, but one has a ton more engineering and manufacturing time involved, hence costing hella more. That's maybe not the best analogy but I hope you get the point.

To say that a BCM and Gen3 Noveske are truly equal is a bit misleading. A Gen1 would be a more realistic and fair comparison.

Tapatalk'd

Well said. Except for the hella haha.

FourT6and2

01-08-15, 17:14

I have noticed this rifle is exhibiting some abnormal buffer wear. After the range trip the other day, I see that the face of the buffer is getting beat the hell up. After reading about it, most people say it's either normal... or the lower is out of spec, causing the buffer to hit the retainer pin. Or... the upper is out of spec... Or... the BCG is out of spec. Basically SOMETHING is out of spec obviously. My other rifle doesn't do this.

I put a call in to Noveske and they are reviewing the photos I sent.

But in talking briefly with someone there, I asked about all these changes. And the response I got was, "I haven't heard/seen any of our rifles with tensioning screws..." When I pressed harder, they seemed to avoid the question. They also said that they've been experimenting with different anodizing and cerakoting this past year to find a finish they like. Apparently, customers are beta testing their rifles for them. I think all these variations and changes should be done on prototype rifles that never leave the shop.

.46caliber

01-08-15, 17:26

RE buffer face markings, check the tail of the carrier for any sharp points or edges. Share pics of the wear?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

FourT6and2

01-08-15, 17:29

RE buffer face markings, check the tail of the carrier for any sharp points or edges. Share pics of the wear?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

I don't feel any major burrs or sharp edges. But it appears as though that is the most likely case. The retainer pin looks to be in the correct spot. So I'm guessing your intuition is correct. If the inner and outer edges of the carrier need to be filed down or radiused ever so slightly, what is the best way of doing that?

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2015/008/3/f/buffer_by_haftelm-d8d4mqb.jpg

MikeDawg46L

01-08-15, 18:08

Well said. Except for the hella haha.

I honestly can't believe I said it either I hate that word. Must be a generational deficiency.

OP, I get what you're saying about the prototypes, but customers are the best test subjects for smaller companies. I doubt many of the gun manufacturers have a huge staff dedicated to testing these types of things.

If there is an issue with it being out of spec and marking the buffer like that, I would certainly expect them to make it right.

Great job keeping us informed so far. Keep it up. We are all very interested to hear the diagnosis and how they plan to make it right.

Tapatalk'd

.46caliber

01-08-15, 19:14

I don't feel any major burrs or sharp edges. But it appears as though that is the most likely case. The retainer pin looks to be in the correct spot. So I'm guessing your intuition is correct. If the inner and outer edges of the carrier need to be filed down or radiused ever so slightly, what is the best way of doing that?

Judging by the looks of the marring, I'd start there for sure. I honestly don't know the best method because I've never needed to do it.

In general, start with the least aggressive method and work up till it clears. I just used a whet stone to smooth the proud areas of FSB taper pin cuts so my Geissele Super gas block fit properly. Not very aggressive, but enough to bring the high points down so the block slid into place nicely.

As minimal as those marks are, I might leave it be of it were my rifle. But I default to those with more know.

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j-ro

01-08-15, 19:25

I like the changes.

FourT6and2

01-08-15, 20:12

Judging by the looks of the marring, I'd start there for sure. I honestly don't know the best method because I've never needed to do it.

In general, start with the least aggressive method and work up till it clears. I just used a whet stone to smooth the proud areas of FSB taper pin cuts so my Geissele Super gas block fit properly. Not very aggressive, but enough to bring the high points down so the block slid into place nicely.

As minimal as those marks are, I might leave it be of it were my rifle. But I default to those with more know.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Ok cool. Also, keep in mind what you see is from 200 rounds only. After 1,000... there might not be any buffer left haha. Joking of course. But I think this wear is excessive considering the round count.

Wake27

01-08-15, 22:23

I would wait until Noveske gets back to you. Any filing may very well prevent them from helping you.

FourT6and2

01-08-15, 23:41

I would wait until Noveske gets back to you. Any filing may very well prevent them from helping you.

Yep, not planning on doing anything until I hear back.

FourT6and2

01-10-15, 16:52

Haven't heard back. But from the looks of it (and from what I've been told by some other folks), I think I'll ned a completely new BCG, new Bolt, and new Buffer. Plus have the head space re-checked. I could file down the bolt and BCG myself. But I'm gonna push to have Noveske just replace everything since it's a brand new rifle and under warranty.

Ridiculous.

It shoots great. And is accurate. But it's pretty obvious the BCG was built or assembled at 5PM on a Friday...

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/010/9/d/photo_2_by_haftelm-d8dd2v4.jpg

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/010/4/4/photo_5_by_haftelm-d8dd2vd.jpg

jerrysimons

01-10-15, 22:30

AM I missing something? What am I supposed to see is wrong from the pic?

polymorpheous

01-10-15, 22:34

AM I missing something? What am I supposed to see is wrong from the pic?

I guessing he's concerned about the uneven wear on the bolt lugs opposite of the extractor.

WS6

01-10-15, 23:09

The only thing I truly see that could be out of spec here is the massive amount of brass on that bolt face. That's a lot. Is it shaving from somewhere?

The buffer and lug wear, while not "perfection", is not an issue that will ever be functional or even to be considered out of spec, imo.
The front of the lugs do nothing but arrest the forward motion of the bolt upon return to battery. It's the rear of the lugs that is the load bearing surface.

scooter22

01-10-15, 23:44

polymorpheous

01-10-15, 23:54

FourT6and2

01-11-15, 01:46

I guessing he's concerned about the uneven wear on the bolt lugs opposite of the extractor.

The edge of the extractor channel is one large burr. It is raised, proud of the bolt face. And the inner channel of the extractor itself is forward of the bolt face, causing it to gauge up spent casings as they rotate off the bolt. The rear of the BCG's inner and outer circumference has raised edges, causing the buffer wear you see, which is only after one range trip.

I might be able to file these surfaces down to de-burr them. But it's a brand new rifle, literally two weeks old and still under warranty. I shouldn't have to take a dremel to a new rifle.

And yes, there is a lot more brass shavings and fouling on this rifle compared to my other Noveske. Not an issue in and of itself, but a symptom of an out-of-spec bolt and BCG I think. Rifle "functions" fine. No failures. And is more accurate than my other one. But I think it best to get a new BCG and bolt.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/008/3/6/photo_1_by_haftelm-d8d3bml.jpg

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/008/1/c/photo_2_by_haftelm-d8d3bmr.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Dano523/bolt_zps7a3d8385.jpg

WS6

01-11-15, 01:51

The edge of the extractor channel is one large burr. It is raised, proud of the bolt face. And the inner channel of the extractor itself is forward of the bolt face, causing it to gauge up spent casings as they rotate off the bolt. The rear of the BCG's inner and outer circumference has raised edges, causing the buffer wear you see, which is only after 200 rounds. Noveske clearly did not check this BCG/bolt before shipping the rifle.

I might be able to file these surfaces down to de-burr them. But it's a brand new rifle, literally two weeks old and still under warranty.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/008/3/6/photo_1_by_haftelm-d8d3bml.jpg

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/008/1/c/photo_2_by_haftelm-d8d3bmr.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Dano523/bolt_zps7a3d8385.jpg
Yep. I figured. The bolt needs to be replaced. I had a sabre defense rifle with this identical issue. It clogged the ejector tunnel with brass and failed to function. A new bolt solved it and it ran just fine. I would not file a bolt. Carrier tail? Sure. For the money paid though, I'd want a new bcg in exchange. Headspacing I would not worry about personally. I do have the gauges to do it, but things are what they are with the barrel. Matching bolts on new rifles is just a bunch of voodoo. They just check for safety and move on. I'd invest in the gauges $60, and check it if you want. Keep em for swapping stuff or building stuff or loaning to a buddy.

FourT6and2

01-11-15, 02:06

Yep. I figured. The bolt needs to be replaced. I had a sabre defense rifle with this identical issue. It clogged the ejector tunnel with brass and failed to function. A new bolt solved it and it ran just fine. I would not file a bolt. Carrier tail? Sure. For the money paid though, I'd want a new bcg in exchange. Headspacing I would not worry about personally. I do have the gauges to do it, but things are what they are with the barrel. Matching bolts on new rifles is just a bunch of voodoo. They just check for safety and move on. I'd invest in the gauges $60, and check it if you want. Keep em for swapping stuff or building stuff or loaning to a buddy.

Yep. I'm gonna get on the phone (hopefully) with them on Monday and see if I can get a new BCG, Bolt, and Buffer sent to me.

I'm looking for headpsace gauges. But can't find any in stock. Plus, this noveske Mod 0 Match chamber might not be compatible with standard 5.56 NATO or .223 gauges...

polymorpheous

01-11-15, 08:13

I agree with the previous poster.
Don't file it.
Send it back.

WS6

01-11-15, 08:35

Yep. I'm gonna get on the phone (hopefully) with them on Monday and see if I can get a new BCG, Bolt, and Buffer sent to me.

I'm looking for headpsace gauges. But can't find any in stock. Plus, this noveske Mod 0 Match chamber might not be compatible with standard 5.56 NATO or .223 gauges...

I'm willing to bet that the MOD 0 chamber's changes are in the leade. I have no inside info, here, but that's just a bet. Really, though, I think a swapped BCG in the mail and a rock and roll, go-shoot will fix it.

FourT6and2

01-11-15, 09:01

I'm willing to bet that the MOD 0 chamber's changes are in the leade. I have no inside info, here, but that's just a bet. Really, though, I think a swapped BCG in the mail and a rock and roll, go-shoot will fix it.

Sounds good to me.

FourT6and2

01-12-15, 13:27

Spoke to Noveske this morning. They said the wear on the buffer is normal. But that the bolt/BCG does appear to have a possible bur. Shipping back the upper for them to take a look and possibly replace bolt/BCG and check head space.

samuse

01-12-15, 14:49

Not only does the car analogy not hold, but a Noveske is no better than a BCM.

Just because it looks cooler doesn't mean anything.

There is no esoteric engineering involved in the production of a Noveske.

I'm with this guy. Their stainless barrels are highly regarded, but their chrome lined uppers and standard receivers are run of the mill stuff. I had a skinny MOE when they first came out and it was a very underwhelming rifle.

I have found Colt and BCM to be at the top of the heap when it comes to a real usin' type of carbine.

MikeDawg46L

01-12-15, 15:04

Not only does the car analogy not hold, but a Noveske is no better than a BCM.

Just because it looks cooler doesn't mean anything.

There is no esoteric engineering involved in the production of a Noveske.

Are we talking being better or are we talking about costing more? I don't believe that distinction is what I was making. The car analogy absolutely does stick. One costs 40k, the other costs 90k. Both go fast. So why? Engineering and build time.

And if anyone doesn't think significant engineering time went into the design of the Noveske products, you're kidding yourselves or don't know much about taking a new product from idea to product on shelf. It doesn't happen on its own and it sure as hell isn't cheap.

Is a bare CL Noveske any rifle any better than a BCM? Having owned both, I'd say no, or at least not so much that average joe would really appreciate it. But does it cost more to machine an upper and lower from a billet vs forging a lower? Yep, sure does.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about which is better on this thread out of respect to the OP, so I will leave it at that.

Tapatalk'd

Curtb2336

01-15-15, 07:57

Man i want one of those uppers!

FourT6and2

01-16-15, 11:41

UPDATE:

Noveske took a look at the upper. Test fired it and they said they weren't getting any gouging or case marks. Strange. Maybe it's the ammo I was using?

Either way, they did replace the bolt and head space it to the barrel. They are shipping out today. So I should have it back early next week.

Blak1508

01-16-15, 19:19

I love my BCM rifles, the one I have been using is my go to weapon and runs its ass off, however if I was in the market for a new AR and funds were not an option between the two I would def go Noveske, although overall in the industry there are other Manufactures I'd prefer over one, (KAC) The small touches on the Noveske, rifling, finish, attention to detail ETC. equate to worth. I think you are in a win win situation with both. I think it's just a matter of what you like better or what your in the market for.

Op that's a beautiful weapon and I hope everything gets worked out for you. Please keep us updated.

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FourT6and2

01-20-15, 20:08

Got the upper back today. Everything appears as it should. Won't be able to get to the range for a week or so. I'm out of town this weekend. Will report back when that happens.

MikeDawg46L

01-29-15, 09:30

Any updates?

Tapatalk'd

FourT6and2

01-29-15, 09:48

Any updates?

Tapatalk'd

Nope. I haven't had a chance to get to the range yet. Was out of town and things are busy with work right now. Might go this Saturday. Sunday is Superbowl.

FourT6and2

01-29-15, 23:40

Got my replacement ammo from Black Hills today. So I now have a new bolt and new ammo. Will try to hit the range this weekend to see what happens.

Also, Black Hills sent me a full 500-round case as replacement, even though I used up a couple hundred rounds. They paid shipping both ways too. So their customer service is great. :)

FourT6and2

01-31-15, 19:08

Hit the range today and shot some Hornady 75gr Match (not the superformance) along with the new Black Hills I received and the new bolt/carrier. No casing marks on the Hornady. Still casing marks on the Black Hills. Though, definitely not as much as before. I think the new bolt helped a lot. But I'm going to chalk it up to soft brass and possibly a stout load. But... this ammo shoots the most consistently and accurately out of all the ammo I've tried. For example, here are the results at 100 yards compared to Hornady.

Black Hills 77gr 5.56 SMK:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/031/6/2/stainless_2_by_haftelm-d8g6h54.jpg

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/031/8/0/stainless1_by_haftelm-d8g6h58.jpg

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2015/031/2/9/stainless_3_by_haftelm-d8g6h4w.jpg

Hornady 75gr .223. I shot a few boxes. But this was the best group. Seems like my rifle just doesn't like it. So far out of all the ammo I've tried, Black Hills shoots the best. I'll keep looking for different brands/types to try. But I don't think I'll get my groups any smaller than 0.75 - 1.00 MOA with this gun. And I'll definitely be sticking with Black Hills in the long run. Their customer service is very good.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/031/d/1/hornady_75gr_by_haftelm-d8g6h4p.jpg

Also, I don't see any additional wear on the buffer face. So that's probably a non-issue at this point.

MikeDawg46L

01-31-15, 20:51

Good to hear and glad you got it all worked out. Thanks again for continuing to update.

Looks like your rifle is loving the Black Hills 77gr.

Tapatalk'd

FourT6and2

01-31-15, 21:46

When I'm lucky, I can get .75 MOA out of it. But averaging more like 1 - 1.25. Any suggestions for ammo to try? I've been told lighter ammo might be good. Like 52gr or even lighter.

MikeDawg46L

02-01-15, 00:19

You will likely get better groups at 100y with lighter ammo. If you ever plan to take it beyond that then the heavy stuff really starts to shine.

I don't know that you'll ever get better factory loads than the Black Hills. Hand loading could yield better results but is a large investment in time and money to get started, and to find those loads.

Check out the reloading subforum in the General Firearms section to see what guys are able to do with hand loads. I'm still baby stepping my way up to most of them.

Tapatalk'd

Wake27

02-01-15, 01:54

I wonder how Noveske's upcoming brand of ammo will group in their guns. IIRC its Nosler stuff.

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FourT6and2

02-01-15, 09:22

I won't be loading my own ammo at this stage in my shooting hobby. So it's factory ammo only.

Noveske's ammo looks like a joke. Glow in the dark tips? Come on.

Mark82ndABN

02-01-15, 15:12

Has anyone noticed a difference in the Gen 3 magwell tolerances compared to the Gen 1's? No FTF's so far but comparing my new Gen 3 lower to my Noveske Gen 1 lowers my USGI mags flop around in the Gen 3 magwell when fully seated (front to back movement as well as side to side). PMAGS (Gen 2) are better but MUCH more play in this new Gen 3 lower than my Gen 1 lower (or my Colt, DD lowers). I've tried 4 different manufacturer's USGI aluminum mags (total of 10 different mags) and 12 different Gen 2 PMAGS. Just curious.