View Full Version : 12 Dead in Paris Shooting.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/report-shots-fired-at-headquarters-of-satirical-magazine-in-paris-2015-1
The shooters escaped and are still are large.
I am surprised that this sort of thing has not occurred at a U.S. media outlet that has printed or aired stories that could be perceived as showing disrespect to a particular religion or culture.
LEO in CONUS should take a close look at this situation and analyze their ability to respond.
God Speed to the victims.
Moose-Knuckle
01-07-15, 06:09
Mumbai and Nairobi come to mind.
Europe is a powder keg. Last week a THREE Masques were torched in Sweden. Guess the Swedes are sick of their little girls being gang raped by Muslim refugees . . .
Eurodriver
01-07-15, 06:45
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026050389
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014982407
The right wing crackdown and investigation will have severe after effects. Since its a terrorist attack, the security forces might be especially brutal in extracting information which can only hurt any peace or integration.
I don't even understand why they write about Mohammed at all. It's unfair to Muslims.
:blink:
The "security forces" might be "brutal"? Wow. I thought murdering 12 innocent journalists was harmful to peace and integration, but I guess I've been mistaken.
Not much we can say until more intel comes in, but just more proof that no matter how anti gun the county, bad men with bad intentions will have access to guns period. All those people standing around unable to respond with anything but phone vids off roofs. Maybe this will lead to calls for additional gun control...
Interesting this crew didn't go in looking to meet their virgins and are at large.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026050389
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014982407
:blink:
The "security forces" might be "brutal"? Wow. I thought murdering 12 innocent journalists was harmful to peace and integration, but I guess I've been mistaken.
Say what??? Dafuq............
Whiskey_Bravo
01-07-15, 07:48
Not much we can say until more intel comes in, but just more proof that no matter how anti gun the county, bad men with bad intentions will have access to guns period. All those people standing around unable to respond with anything but phone vids off roofs. Maybe this will lead to calls for additional gun control...
Interesting this crew didn't go in looking to meet their virgins and are at large.
Yeah very interesting that these dirt bags didn't decide to off themselves or die in a shoot out like normal. All black, rifles, and some sort of chest rigs. Can't tell the rifle type.
This place had been under 24 hour protection since 2011 and just pulled security back a couple of weeks ago according to fox.
I'm surprised when Obama and Holder Armed the Cartels to try to drum up gun control support that they didn't arm some Musloids on American soil too.
Yeah very interesting that these dirt bags didn't decide to off themselves or die in a shoot out like normal. All black, rifles, and some sort of chest rigs. Can't tell the rifle type.
This place had been under 24 hour protection since 2011 and just pulled security back a couple of weeks ago according to fox.
Was the security even armed? Likely not. Here they kill an un armed LEO begging for his life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-FFx7Xy0Uo
Voodoochild
01-07-15, 08:00
Europe is in a world of hurt. They have a serious problems with radical Muslim population. It has bee. Allowed to go unchecked and is going to continue to fester and scenes like Paris are going to continue to happen.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-07-15, 08:14
These don't look like some shit derka derka kids that stole a couple of guns. They handled themselves like they have at least some level of training.
The west is going to have to stop bowing down to these savage ****s. I am sick of hearing that the assholes that do these things have been under surveillance.
.........................
.........................
who says they didn't?
Hell, I'm surprised their not actively arming black hate groups out of fairness.
Hell, I'm surprised their not actively arming black hate groups out of fairness.
Which also begs the question,Who says they didn't?
More info and photos of the attack.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2900259/Gunmen-kill-11-Charlie-Hebdo-attack.html
More info and photos of the attack.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2900259/Gunmen-kill-11-Charlie-Hebdo-attack.html
RPG.......... Lovely :(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/07/7e7ccded91afad1a647b6b2a3896e047.jpg
ETA... Not surprising
http://drudgegae.iavian.net/v2/r?hop=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.weeklystandard.com%2Fblogs%2Fwh-unsure-whether-murderous-rampage-france-terrorism_823285.html&n=1&s=2
French President François Hollande is reported to have said the following:
'This newspaper was threatened several rimes in the past and we need to show we are a united country.
'We have to be firm, and we have to be stand strong with the international community in the coming days and weeks.
'We are at a very difficult moment following several terrorist attacks. We are threated [sic] because we are a country of freedom
'We will punish the attackers. We will look for the people responsible.'
If these are accurate translations then he is even more an empty suit than I previously believed. Super glad to hear however that he is going to "look for the people responsible", though I am not sure exactly what he hopes to accomplish by "standing strong with the international community in the coming days and weeks", or showing that they are "a united country".
I guess this is one of the most recent cartoons. Can anyone translate?
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/07/559eaaacf2ed68454351378c8238572d.jpg
I guess this is one of the most recent cartoons. Can anyone translate?
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/07/559eaaacf2ed68454351378c8238572d.jpg
Love
Stronger than hate.
Love
Stronger than hate.
7.62 and RPGs tend to say otherwise. Those willing to use violence will always triumph over those using only ideology and words.
Religion of peace strikes again?
Religion of peace strikes again?
Sounds like it. Fox latest headline:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/07/shooting-reported-at-office-satirical-french-newspaper/
Three black-clad gunmen shouting "Allahu Akbar!" stormed the Paris offices of a satirical publication known for lampooning Islam...
WickedWillis
01-07-15, 11:31
It really blows my mind that in such a concentrated population area, these guys got away. And here we are demanding to disarm and de-militarize our Police forces stateside. ****ing joke that innocent people had to go down like this. Sad.
I read this in one day on kindle last summer. Had to put it down for a while midday...the sickening part was that it's so damn likely to happen, and will.
Shit-for brains empty suit politicians are going to get a LOT of people killed.
http://www.amazon.com/Day-Wrath-William-R-Forstchen-ebook/dp/B00MU1NNRO
I read this in one day on kindle last summer. Had to put it down for a while midday...the sickening part was that it's so damn likely to happen, and will.
Shit-for brains empty suit politicians are going to get a LOT of people killed.
http://www.amazon.com/Day-Wrath-William-R-Forstchen-ebook/dp/B00MU1NNRO
True but the real blame lies with those who voted them into office.
Since they didn't stay to go down in a blaze of glorious gunfire (for the virgins), that tells me they have more left to do on their bucket list.
This isn't over. And one of these days, we are going to see it here (not that we really haven't already)...
France and a lot of Europe has let this happen with loose immigration policies and social welfare programs, and now it's coming back to haunt them - the US should take notice...
Tolerance of these filthy animals and their goofball religion has just got to stop.
Since they didn't stay to go down in a blaze of glorious gunfire (for the virgins), that tells me they have more left to do on their bucket list.
This isn't over. And one of these days, we are going to see it here (not that we really haven't already)...
France and a lot of Europe has let this happen withloose immigration policies and social welfare programs, and now it's coming back to haunt them - the US should take notice...
Um...yeah...
True but the real blame lies with those who voted them into office.
Amen. Unfortunately the rest of us, including the innocent, have to live in the same neighborhood when it goes boom.
Too bad if this comes to our shores in the same manner it will come to a place like NYC where the citizens are unarmed and the cops can't hit the broad side of a barn with their 12# trigger having Glocks.
they know better not to try and hit a local where he citizens are armed.
ramairthree
01-07-15, 16:55
Um...yeah...
Sadly, I think they are only a few laps ahead of us on the track.
Europe is in a world of hurt. They have a serious problems with radical Muslim population. It has bee. Allowed to go unchecked and is going to continue to fester and scenes like Paris are going to continue to happen.
This is the truth. Good friend of mine is Muslim. He and his wife and kids went to visit relatives in Europe not long ago. When he got back he used the terms "nutjob" "insane" and "militant" a lot. Even as a Muslim he told me he didn't feel safe over there. Even some fairly conservative Imam's are getting worried from what he is telling me.
ChrisCross
01-07-15, 19:04
One suspect dead, 2 in custody.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/paris-attack-suspect-dead-two-custody-u-s-officials-say-n281761
dwhitehorne
01-07-15, 19:11
Too bad if this comes to our shores in the same manner it will come to a place like NYC where the citizens are unarmed and the cops can't hit the broad side of a barn with their 12# trigger having Glocks.
they know better not to try and hit a local where he citizens are armed.
The closest thing we have to this type of coordinated attack was the North Hollywood bank robbers and it was overwhelming for the officers involved. A coordinated attack from a few determined individuals is hard for the Patrol Officer to counter. Shoot to stop the threat and Locate, Close with and Destroy the Enemy requires two different mind sets that most in LE don't comprehend. Unfortunately it is only a matter of time. David
One suspect dead, 2 in custody.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/paris-attack-suspect-dead-two-custody-u-s-officials-say-n281761
Hope they whip out a ****ing guillotine
Where is the pink mist??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2KkttkhFag
ForTehNguyen
01-07-15, 20:03
GRAPHIC NSFW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-FFx7Xy0Uo
the 13 sec mark is the same as mine?? Where is the mist??
Where is the pink mist??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2KkttkhFag
People need to stop watching so many movies. Many gun shot wounds do not result in and explosion of blood.
JBecker 72
01-07-15, 20:48
That video of the officer getting shot point blank is something I wish I hadn't seen. Crazy day. RIP to all the fallen and hope these shitbags meet the same fate.
Ironically, the officer shown being executed in the street was a Muslim.
Meet Ahmed Merabet
30941
Rip officer.
http://www.inquisitr.com/1736572/ahmed-merabet-police-officer-executed-in-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-attack-was-muslim/
That video of the officer getting shot point blank is something I wish I hadn't seen. Crazy day. RIP to all the fallen and hope these shitbags meet the same fate.
It's a shame the officer lost his life that way, but it is the reality of the situation.
Our collective governments had better pull their heads out of their asses and deal with the threat head on.
ForTehNguyen
01-07-15, 21:06
as a huge middle finger, everyone should just post the cartoons all over the planet
http://dailysignal.com/2015/01/07/standing-french/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Yeah very interesting that these dirt bags didn't decide to off themselves or die in a shoot out like normal.
You know, I've been thinking about this. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor; live to fight another day, etc. The Japanese, near the end of WWII, decided to (mostly) give up the Banzai mentality of dying en masse. They realized that to bleed the Americans dry they needed to fight smart and drag it out. That is why Iwo Jima and Okinawa were the most costly campaigns in the Pacific and what made The Bomb a rather easy decision when it was made available. Perhaps the Islamists are having such an epiphany? Sure, there will still be Aloha Snackbar suicide types, but what if they decided to change tactics and make the West come and root them out?
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-08-15, 01:33
You know, I've been thinking about this. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor; live to fight another day, etc. The Japanese, near the end of WWII, decided to (mostly) give up the Banzai mentality of dying en masse. They realized that to bleed the Americans dry they needed to fight smart and drag it out. That is why Iwo Jima and Okinawa were the most costly campaigns in the Pacific and what made The Bomb a rather easy decision when it was made available. Perhaps the Islamists are having such an epiphany? Sure, there will still be Aloha Snackbar suicide types, but what if they decided to change tactics and make the West come and root them out?
OR they weren't faced with a response that threatened their capture. Why off yourself and leave the party early?
Between the lack of blood from the policeman's point blank shooting and CNNs report that one attacker left ID at the scene of the shooting, the conspiracy nuts will have a field day with this.
:blink:
The "security forces" might be "brutal"? Wow. I thought murdering 12 innocent journalists was harmful to peace and integration, but I guess I've been mistaken.
Don't bother with the short bus. They are talking about people who kill over a cartoon and then blame the cartoonist.
At the end of the day, Islam is just another hateful ideology with little actual difference from groups like the KKK. Those guys go to church too, about the only difference is the KKK kills a LOT fewer people.
While these guys had some coordination and discipline I would argue that properly equipped US officers would have been able to contain them in most US cities which issue or allow long guns for Patrol.
Even in the NoHo shooting the shooters were constantly engaged and followed by officers with just pistols (and mostly useless 00B shotguns) Nowadays whenever the situation warrants it there are a proliferation of AR and slug guns deployed.
However, we are definitely vulnerable to truly coordinated attacks by well trained fighters. I just didn't see that in Paris (yet) or even Mumbai. More of a lack of properly equipped or trained police either by bad luck or bad policy.
Dennis.
Note: Pictures of the normal soldiers guarding the Eiffel Tower after the shooting still showed no magazines in their trombones...
The closest thing we have to this type of coordinated attack was the North Hollywood bank robbers and it was overwhelming for the officers involved. A coordinated attack from a few determined individuals is hard for the Patrol Officer to counter. Shoot to stop the threat and Locate, Close with and Destroy the Enemy requires two different mind sets that most in LE don't comprehend. Unfortunately it is only a matter of time. David
7 people arrested, but the shooters are still at large.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/man-linked-to-paris-attacks-voluntarily-hands-himself-in-to-police-2015-1
And just reported:
"Female police officer shot dead in Paris and male colleague injured by ‘North African wielding assault rifle and wearing bullet-proof vest"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2901670/Gunman-arrested-Paris-police-officers-seriously-wounded.html
Moose-Knuckle
01-08-15, 04:48
And just reported:
"Female police officer shot dead in Paris and male colleague injured by ‘North African wielding assault rifle and wearing bullet-proof vest"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2901670/Gunman-arrested-Paris-police-officers-seriously-wounded.html
Reminds me of the African Muslim who hacked the British Soldier to death outside his barracks with a meat cleaver.
Charles the Hammer and his grandson Charlemagne are turning in their graves!!!!
Averageman
01-08-15, 05:17
Charles the Hammer and his grandson Charlemagne are turning in their graves!!!!
Lot of good people in France and although we might like to consider them surrender monkeys sometimes in jest, the folks in their Military I have delt with were pretty cool and professional.
Soon to be at a theatre near you though I'm afraid. I don't think we have the fortitude to stop the PC crowd from allowing this to happen here.
By reading and listening to some of the commentary on this you would think a couple rogue CAG or DEVGRU guys had carried this out. I would submit to you that by all appearances these assholes were in the realm of the North Hollywood shooters: they knew how to handle firearms, had a plan, could even shoot and move with some competency. However, some tip-of-the-spear commando team they were not. Their target was in a largely gun-free country where there was ZERO chance of someone pulling out a CCW and at least make them duck! By all accounts they were in Syria at one time and it would appear that is where they received their training (think ISIS). Pretty good at shooting up unarmed targets, cutting off a few heads, and maybe even giving a Middle Eastern army fits. I'll guaran-freaking-tee you a French police SWAT element would eat their lunch.
OR they weren't faced with a response that threatened their capture. Why off yourself and leave the party early?
Precisely. Live another day to kill more infidels.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-08-15, 08:12
I was out at Pearl Harbor over the Holidays for vacation and I found a stark contrast between now and then. After the attack, for all the crap that the Japanese-Americans had to put up with, they joined the Army and kicked ass in Europe to prove that they were 'with us, not against us'.
Where is that type of sentiment now? Sure there are Muslims in the Army, sure there are a few Imam's that speak out, maybe many hold personal beliefs that this is abhorrent- but you don't hear much about it. If the Japanese-Americans had acted like Muslim-Americans, they'd still probably still be in relocation camps. There were basically no pro-Japanese acts by Japanese-Americans and how many Muslims in America have gone to the ME for training and Jihad or gone on their own Jihad here? How many Japanese-Americans went on suicide missions in the US?
Some people here, on European side of The Pond, think that this savage act can be big mistake on islamists side. People do not want to listen to islam appeasers anymore. Of course there is risk, that we can venture to far "right" or leftist will use that to sell us police state. But Europe is waking up and seems less prone to go asleep again.
On the other hand, some predict that West will once again turn to Russia to use it to fight one evil with another, even if it would cost freedom of some insignificant countries (like mine) - West (including US) was always ready to sacrifice others freedom to protect themselves (kind of natural thing actually). That is also not best scenario.
Some people here, on European side of The Pond, think that this savage act can be big mistake on islamists side. People do not want to listen to islam appeasers anymore. Of course there is risk, that we can venture to far "right" or leftist will use that to sell us police state. But Europe is waking up and seems less prone to go asleep again.
On the other hand, some predict that West will once again turn to Russia to use it to fight one evil with another, even if it would cost freedom of some insignificant countries (like mine) - West (including US) was always ready to sacrifice others freedom to protect themselves (kind of natural thing actually). That is also not best scenario.
I would say it is already happening...
Looks like people are burning down Mosques in Sweden...
http://news.yahoo.com/sweden-hit-third-mosque-arson-attack-week-145914459.html
Some people here, on European side of The Pond, think that this savage act can be big mistake on islamists side. People do not want to listen to islam appeasers anymore. Of course there is risk, that we can venture to far "right" or leftist will use that to sell us police state. But Europe is waking up and seems less prone to go asleep again.
On the other hand, some predict that West will once again turn to Russia to use it to fight one evil with another, even if it would cost freedom of some insignificant countries (like mine) - West (including US) was always ready to sacrifice others freedom to protect themselves (kind of natural thing actually). That is also not best scenario.
The U.S. has spent al lot of $$ and blood over the years keeping Europe free, but politically yes I agree the U.S. would prioritize its own well being over others. Probably the right thing to do to a degree.
The best thing for Europe to do to prevent that from happening is take care of business instead of waiting for some international community to do it for them.
I was out at Pearl Harbor over the Holidays for vacation and I found a stark contrast between now and then. After the attack, for all the crap that the Japanese-Americans had to put up with, they joined the Army and kicked ass in Europe to prove that they were 'with us, not against us'.
Where is that type of sentiment now? Sure there are Muslims in the Army, sure there are a few Imam's that speak out, maybe many hold personal beliefs that this is abhorrent- but you don't hear much about it. If the Japanese-Americans had acted like Muslim-Americans, they'd still probably still be in relocation camps. There were basically no pro-Japanese acts by Japanese-Americans and how many Muslims in America have gone to the ME for training and Jihad or gone on their own Jihad here? How many Japanese-Americans went on suicide missions in the US?
+100000 on this post.
Eurodriver
01-08-15, 10:03
+100000 on this post.
Really?
Japanese Americans assisted Pearl Harbor attackers, to include taking American hostages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident), and I would venture to guess that a just as statistically significant proportion of Muslims are in the US Military today as Japanese were in 1945.
I like ColdDeadHands, but that post wreaks of "The Grass Was Greener back in my day"
BoringGuy45
01-08-15, 10:16
By reading and listening to some of the commentary on this you would think a couple rogue CAG or DEVGRU guys had carried this out. I would submit to you that by all appearances these assholes were in the realm of the North Hollywood shooters: they knew how to handle firearms, had a plan, could even shoot and move with some competency. However, some tip-of-the-spear commando team they were not. Their target was in a largely gun-free country where there was ZERO chance of someone pulling out a CCW and at least make them duck! By all accounts they were in Syria at one time and it would appear that is where they received their training (think ISIS). Pretty good at shooting up unarmed targets, cutting off a few heads, and maybe even giving a Middle Eastern army fits. I'll guaran-freaking-tee you a French police SWAT element would eat their lunch.
I'd concur with that. The European police forces, having had to face organized terrorist groups since the start of the Cold War, are a lot better equipped and experienced in handling actual boots-on-the-ground attacks like this one, then most of our police forces here in the U.S. While the U.S. has had to deal with some bombings and lone gunmen, Europe has had to deal with well armed, well connected, and well trained militant groups like Red for almost 50 years. With the exception of LAPD, NYPD, Chicago PD, and the other very large agencies, most police SWAT teams here are equipped to deal with solitary violent criminals rather than organized attacks like this. For the rest of the country, only FBI HRT is really equipped to handle an organized terrorist attack. The French National Police has full time SWAT units in every city (known as GIPN units) and a national counterterror unit known as RAID. RAID and the Gendarmerie's GIGN are two of the best counterterrorism units in the world, with more experience and more capabilities than even the HRT (such as airborne qualification); I hate to say the French have one up on us, but in this case, it's true.
This is not to say that I would trade our police system for theirs. They have issues too, and not the least of which is civil rights and recourse against excessive force to name a few things. But in terms of preparation to handle domestic terrorist attacks, France has the edge.
Two semi trained terrorists is tying up the entire French police while they're on the loose. Will they eat their own bullets when cornered or will they go out in a blaze of gunfire like the two North Hollywood bank robbers. Those two kept over 100 LAPD busy for a day. And France don't have a gun store around the corner so the Gendarmes can go grab a few ARs or FAMAS or whatever they carry. Those specialized units GIGN and RAID can't be every place at the same time. The Gendarmes will have to contain the terrorists and wait for the cavalry to arrive. Luckily for them, France is not a huge country so it won't take the GIGN and RAID long to arrive by helicopter.
Eurodriver
01-08-15, 10:52
Two semi trained terrorists is tying up the entire French police while they're on the loose. Will they eat their own bullets when cornered or will they go out in a blaze of gunfire like the two North Hollywood bank robbers. Those two kept over 100 LAPD busy for a day. And France don't have a gun store around the corner so the Gendarmes can go grab a few ARs or FAMAS or whatever they carry. Those specialized units GIGN and RAID can't be every place at the same time. The Gendarmes will have to contain the terrorists and wait for the cavalry to arrive. Luckily for them, France is not a huge country so it won't take the GIGN and RAID long to arrive by helicopter.
I concur with this statement.
In reality, no country on earth is prepared to deal with moderately trained, well armed adversaries...at least not initially.
The groups mentioned above by BoringGuy (USA and France) are not deployed Marines. They go home every day to their loved ones, take vacation, have doctors appointments, and their units and tactics reflect that. There is not some up-armored MRAP with up-armored troops ready to enter a gunfight at a moment's notice in any first world country, which is partly why having an armed citizenry is so important in the first place.
As Sam said, the regular PD-folk in France will have to hope they can contain whatever BGs they run into until the pros can show up to work, get suited up, and transport themselves to the scene. This could take many hours.
Look how many resources went into finding the Boston Marathon bombers and Chris Dorner. Two college kids with a handgun, and a Navy LT with moderate rifle skills held up two of America's largest police departments for days, and even then it was the lowly street patrolman that got to them first.
I concur with this statement.
In reality, no country on earth is prepared to deal with moderately trained, well armed adversaries...at least not initially.
The groups mentioned above by BoringGuy (USA and France) are not deployed Marines. They go home every day to their loved ones, take vacation, have doctors appointments, and their units and tactics reflect that. There is not some up-armored MRAP with up-armored troops ready to enter a gunfight at a moment's notice in any first world country, which is partly why having an armed citizenry is so important in the first place. .
That's not entirely true, most large depts. do have full time swat teams, that do have mraps, armor, etc. (See Tx DPS for example). Yes it will take a few hours to get them deployed, but they are there ready to do their job.
But with that in mind, I can totally see how a lot of the old timers and haters have a problem with "regular cops" having AR's in their vehicles, etc. (and yes I've heard the bitching about it first hand, so the sentiment is out there). I mean, what are the chances of this ever happening??....oh wait....
WickedWillis
01-08-15, 11:09
People need to stop watching so many movies. Many gun shot wounds do not result in and explosion of blood.
At that close with a 30 caliber weapon though, I would imagine there would be some sort of splash or noticeable bodily reaction.
At that close with a 30 caliber weapon though, I would imagine there would be some sort of splash or noticeable bodily reaction.
You can imagine all sorts of things, but reality is quite often very different. We don't even know where the fatal shot impacted the poor guy.
The French are going to be screwed for a couple of days till someone rats these 2 ass holes out. If they make it back to an area where people could sympathize and hide them the French are in trouble. There is no real reason for these guys to go out eating their own bullets yet. To date they have been mobile when engaged and have been able to eliminate or avoid their pursuers. Eventually that will change, but while potentially unarmed and ill prepared LEO show up to deal with them they will continue to kill the infidels.
Soon enough we will see this here as well unless we get our heads out of our asses with the PC junk.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-08-15, 13:23
Really?
Japanese Americans assisted Pearl Harbor attackers, to include taking American hostages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident), and I would venture to guess that a just as statistically significant proportion of Muslims are in the US Military today as Japanese were in 1945.
I like ColdDeadHands, but that post wreaks of "The Grass Was Greener back in my day"
I would just like to point out that I was not at Pearl Harbor in WWII, the grass looks actually gray in all the old movies ;). Someone here thought I was Japanese, which is funny- though I can do a pretty good Sumo impersonation.
I knew someone would point out the three dudes who tried to help the downed pilot. Point taken, and while the complexities of WWII are often glossed over, the major point is still true. What do we have now, CAIR- sweet Mohammed- if that is what passes of on our side we are truly screwed.
I really don't understand erroneously trying to compare Japanese Americans in WWII to Muslims. One is a nationality/race, the other a religious/political ideology. And I believe most all of the Japanese in the U.S. during WWII were either Christians or Buddhists, again making any comparison untenable without pointing out that fact.
"Islam's borders are bloody and so are its innards. The fundamental problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilization whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power."
– Samuel P. Huntington
dwhitehorne
01-08-15, 17:02
That's not entirely true, most large depts. do have full time swat teams, that do have mraps, armor, etc. (See Tx DPS for example). Yes it will take a few hours to get them deployed, but they are there ready to do their job.
But with that in mind, I can totally see how a lot of the old timers and haters have a problem with "regular cops" having AR's in their vehicles, etc. (and yes I've heard the bitching about it first hand, so the sentiment is out there). I mean, what are the chances of this ever happening??....oh wait....
I don't see it as an issue with old timers complaining about AR's anymore. Maybe 10 years ago, but most are with the program now. My department has allowed me to purchase enough rifles to out fit half of the Department since I came into training. So we are definately better off in that respect.
I see it as an issue with the LE mind set. Most in Patrol get the idea that by the time SWAT gets the key to the Bear Cat, the gunfight may be over. The only two rifle shootings we have had on the Department were done by rookie officers. The problem is the Active Threat tactics we currently teach still rely on the post Columbine response. One or maybe 2 advisaries that when you press them, give up or eat a bullet. We really don't stress the "what if" it turns into a real gunfight. FLETC is stressing one man entry. Haven't been through ALERRT but I would imagine it is similar. Speed of response over tactics. The only thing I have ever seen that mentioned directed cover fire or fire and manuver in LE was a PACOP (Para-military Attack Counter Offensive Plan) program in Virginia. Everyone litterally gasped when the instructor mentioned cover fire when talking about Use of Force G.O.s
During Ferguson plenty of board members were complaining about the militarization of Law Enforcement response. Those complaining about LE Armor must have never been on the receiving end of rifle fire. And this is where LE is in a catch 22. One minute you are a social worker and the next your are expected to be a Commando. Hopefully is the US experiences a Mumbia type attack the Patrol Officers will not be the bullet pillows until a coordinated response is pulled together. David
I was out at Pearl Harbor over the Holidays for vacation and I found a stark contrast between now and then. After the attack, for all the crap that the Japanese-Americans had to put up with, they joined the Army and kicked ass in Europe to prove that they were 'with us, not against us'.
Where is that type of sentiment now? Sure there are Muslims in the Army, sure there are a few Imam's that speak out, maybe many hold personal beliefs that this is abhorrent- but you don't hear much about it. If the Japanese-Americans had acted like Muslim-Americans, they'd still probably still be in relocation camps. There were basically no pro-Japanese acts by Japanese-Americans and how many Muslims in America have gone to the ME for training and Jihad or gone on their own Jihad here? How many Japanese-Americans went on suicide missions in the US?
One of my teachers was born and grew up in Hawaii. When he was a boy his mother often told him about the day of December 7th, when many believed the attacks were a prelude to a Japanese invasion and a few Japanese residents took it upon themselves to start rounding up locals while dressed in makeshift uniforms and carrying swords and sticks.
Not sure what the official response was to those actions but one of the individuals in question continued to be their neighbor for many years and everyone knew about what he tried to do.
Mauser KAR98K
01-08-15, 20:27
I don't see it as an issue with old timers complaining about AR's anymore. Maybe 10 years ago, but most are with the program now. My department has allowed me to purchase enough rifles to out fit half of the Department since I came into training. So we are definately better off in that respect.
I see it as an issue with the LE mind set. Most in Patrol get the idea that by the time SWAT gets the key to the Bear Cat, the gunfight may be over. The only two rifle shootings we have had on the Department were done by rookie officers. The problem is the Active Threat tactics we currently teach still rely on the post Columbine response. One or maybe 2 advisaries that when you press them, give up or eat a bullet. We really don't stress the "what if" it turns into a real gunfight. FLETC is stressing one man entry. Haven't been through ALERRT but I would imagine it is similar. Speed of response over tactics. The only thing I have ever seen that mentioned directed cover fire or fire and manuver in LE was a PACOP (Para-military Attack Counter Offensive Plan) program in Virginia. Everyone litterally gasped when the instructor mentioned cover fire when talking about Use of Force G.O.s
During Ferguson plenty of board members were complaining about the militarization of Law Enforcement response. Those complaining about LE Armor must have never been on the receiving end of rifle fire. And this is where LE is in a catch 22. One minute you are a social worker and the next your are expected to be a Commando. Hopefully is the US experiences a Mumbia type attack the Patrol Officers will not be the bullet pillows until a coordinated response is pulled together. David
I do fear this, and have feared this when I was a very wet behind the ears rookie ten years ago. I'm not in LE anymore but it has been something that has not really been addressed in the LE community. There have only been a few incidences when small unit tactics were needed and deployed. But the are rare. This gives that false sense of security "that it can't happen in my town."
What if two terrorist that have just shot up a place and fed come to your small town, and an officer stops them for speeding. They engage, kill the officer and hole themselves up in a smalltown school; or it becomes a running gun fight with them. Are our police capable of really dealing with such a situation that counters with the "norm"?
Paris should be a warning to us on so many levels. How many officers only shoot their weapons during qualification these days? Contrast that to the Paris police that responded.
MountainRaven
01-08-15, 21:15
By reading and listening to some of the commentary on this you would think a couple rogue CAG or DEVGRU guys had carried this out. I would submit to you that by all appearances these assholes were in the realm of the North Hollywood shooters: they knew how to handle firearms, had a plan, could even shoot and move with some competency. However, some tip-of-the-spear commando team they were not. Their target was in a largely gun-free country where there was ZERO chance of someone pulling out a CCW and at least make them duck! By all accounts they were in Syria at one time and it would appear that is where they received their training (think ISIS). Pretty good at shooting up unarmed targets, cutting off a few heads, and maybe even giving a Middle Eastern army fits. I'll guaran-freaking-tee you a French police SWAT element would eat their lunch.
NPR was reporting this evening that both of the at-large shooters were (and are) on the US No-Fly List. One of the two (apparently brothers) spent some time in Yemen in 2011, which is likely where and when he received some training in the use of small arms. Presumably by AQAP. I also presume that his brother and the third shooter (who has apparently turned himself in) were then taught by the guy who had been to Yemen.
My assumption, then, is that a small element of moderately trained, well-armed police officers (pistol caliber carbines or sub-guns) or military personnel (carbine) would be able to eat these guys for breakfast in an "honest" firefight.
NPR was reporting this evening that both of the at-large shooters were (and are) on the US No-Fly List. One of the two (apparently brothers) spent some time in Yemen in 2011, which is likely where and when he received some training in the use of small arms. Presumably by AQAP. I also presume that his brother and the third shooter (who has apparently turned himself in) were then taught by the guy who had been to Yemen.
My assumption, then, is that a small element of moderately trained, well-armed police officers (pistol caliber carbines or sub-guns) or military personnel (carbine) would be able to eat these guys for breakfast in an "honest" firefight.
That is basically what I was driving at. They had a soft target which had been recently dropped from the higher-level security coverage it had been afforded since being firebombed in 2011. It was a relatively quick in and out op, overwhelming and outgunning the few immediately responding cops. As has been said before, this could happen in just about any country in the world; you can't protect everything everywhere all the time. Pulling this kind of shit against a prepared, secured target would've yielded far different results for the Islamo-brothers.
Also, good to know these two clowns were on our No-Fly list. At least DHS got that covered for a change.
Moose-Knuckle
01-09-15, 00:03
I would say it is already happening...
Looks like people are burning down Mosques in Sweden...
http://news.yahoo.com/sweden-hit-third-mosque-arson-attack-week-145914459.html
I posted about this on page one of this thread.
I surmise when you have had enough of your young girls and women being gang raped and beaten in the name of a religion smolding places of "worship" are the natural order of things.
Oh well . . .
Moose-Knuckle
01-09-15, 00:11
As for French capabilites, they do not have a Posse Comitatus Act so you can rest assured their direct action face shooters are on the hunt Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale and 1er Régiment de Parachutistes D'infanterie de Marine .
.........................
Suspects surrounded. Hostage situation present.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/09/paris-terror-attack-suspects-reportedly-steal-car-take-hostage-in-northeast/
Looks like two (2) separate hostage situations.
The two (2) brothers North of Paris in a print shop, one (1) goat f*&ker assumed to be the one who killed the Parisian cop yesterday in a Kosher Deli.
Voodoo_Man
01-09-15, 07:28
Looks like two (2) separate hostage situations.
The two (2) brothers North of Paris in a print shop, one (1) goat f*&ker assumed to be the one who killed the Parisian cop yesterday in a Kosher Deli.
*crosses fingers in hopes of 216 virgins being released into whatever hell they go to*
FNC reporting that two (2) civilians are dead at the Kosher Deli. Unconfirmed tho
Looks like two (2) separate hostage situations.
The two (2) brothers North of Paris in a print shop, one (1) goat f*&ker assumed to be the one who killed the Parisian cop yesterday in a Kosher Deli.
Now to see if they're connected to each other or one event just brought out the nuts.
They are connected. One is shop demand that other 2 will be given free passage to go. Apparently he is friend with those 2 brothers. He is also suspect in killing unarmed female cop (27yo girl was here 2nd week at this job). At least this is latest here.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-09-15, 09:44
They are connected. One is shop demand that other 2 will be given free passage to go. Apparently he is friend with those 2 brothers. He is also suspect in killing unarmed female cop (27yo girl was here 2nd week at this job). At least this is latest here.
Here's hoping the media (or twitter-azzi) don't screw up any counter-action by giving it away and the other scene starts going ballistic.
FNC showing 'ish going down. See smoke and hear gunfire. Small explosions
FNC showing 'ish going down. See smoke and hear gunfire. Small explosions
Fox's transmission feed from www.france24.com.
Shots fired, sounded like fully automatic small arms fires, several bursts.
http://www.france24.com/en/
Voodoo_Man
01-09-15, 10:12
Fox's transmission feed from www.france24.com.
Shots fired, sounded like fully automatic small arms fires, several bursts.
http://www.france24.com/en/
woo thanks live link at the top
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-09-15, 10:13
The assault has been about 15 minutes long??
The assault has been about 15 minutes long??
Where did you get that? the portion that they broadcasted seemed to last less than 5 minutes. Appeared that the assault happened simultaneously at both locations.
Looks like the brothers are smoked. No confirmation yet
Conflicting reports of hostage casualties from early reports.
CBS News reporting hostage takers at both locations deceased after Police/ security forces make entry and engage in firefight.
Most likely French GIGN who performed the entry and killed the terrorists.
Link:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie_Intervention_Group
http://www.tactical-life.com/magazines/special-weapons/frances-gign-anti-terror-unit/
Just posted
A source to AFP says that the Kouachi brothers "came out firing" on security forces.
Spurholder
01-09-15, 10:35
Typical initial spot reports...
I just heard that the brothers pulled a "Butch and Sundance" and came out of the printing shop shooting...
ETA: beat me to it.
CBS News reporting hostage takers at both locations deceased after Police/ security forces make entry and engage in firefight.
France24.com feed is saying Suspects dead... hostages all alive
The white female from the deli hostage situation has escaped
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-09-15, 10:43
Where did you get that? the portion that they broadcasted seemed to last less than 5 minutes. Appeared that the assault happened simultaneously at both locations.
Was watching CNN and FOX. I think it was CNN that said that from the first sounds of assault they were still hearing gunfire and explosions 15 minutes later. Maybe they were suffering from time dilation.
CHARLIE HEBDO GUNMEN 'KILLED': French commandos storm business unit near Paris airport
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2903042/Are-Charlie-Hebdo-killers-martyrdom-mission-Police-fear-fugitive-gunmen-planning-spectacular-stand-88-000-troops-continue-search-vast-forest.html
Part of the response/investigation is concluded, but it is far from over. French Police had better dial it up a few notches and go after the support structure of the men responsible for the attack.
I am awaiting comments about how the people on the scooter were handled.
Averageman
01-09-15, 12:01
Curious as to the origin of those weapons, Libyan?
CHARLIE HEBDO GUNMEN 'KILLED': French commandos storm business unit near Paris airport
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2903042/Are-Charlie-Hebdo-killers-martyrdom-mission-Police-fear-fugitive-gunmen-planning-spectacular-stand-88-000-troops-continue-search-vast-forest.html
Unnecessary and uncalled for. Don't make the mistake again.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-09-15, 12:57
Part of the response/investigation is concluded, but it is far from over. French Police had better dial it up a few notches and go after the support structure of the men responsible for the attack.
I am awaiting comments about how the people on the scooter were handled.
Scooter?
Averageman
01-09-15, 13:13
I'm really anxious to see how the French take action to prevent this from happening in the future.
The preemptive strike might be to remove some of these more radical imam's that espouse violence along with the families of all of the terrorists.
Clearly if you have a vile hatred of the West you need to move along and go back to where your ancestor's flourished before coming to the restrictive Christian Western Countries like France and Great Britain.
I'm thinking a free ride home bound and gagged and a boot as you exit the plane is in order.
Voodoo_Man
01-09-15, 13:41
you guys see these videos - both posted on my blog (and elsewhere / links in post)
http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2015/01/terrorist-assassins-in-france-are-dead.html
I hope that's not what they call a stack of any kind.
http://youtu.be/NZX6Bjp--VU
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-15, 13:53
Another view, what was the explosion at the door? Flash bang or something of the sort bouncing back and hitting at their feet? You can see an injured LEO get dragged over to the back side of the car and the other guy pulling something off of him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8MJzS5Sxqw
OK everyone pile up to the front block the door and try to take a shot or two ?
guys in the back shoot over the top
you guys see these videos - both posted on my blog (and elsewhere / links in post)
http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2015/01/terrorist-assassins-in-france-are-dead.html
I hope that's not what they call a stack of any kind.
http://youtu.be/NZX6Bjp--VU
Scooter?
The scooter in the photos on the news link. It's on the link Belloc posted #96.
In all of that confusion the female terrorist was pretty slick to sneak out with the other hostages. Hopefully they capture her alive and are able to obtain a ton of info on other terrorist working in the city. It's a long shot but she might know of others.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-09-15, 14:39
Maybe it's just me but the dark haired chick running out of the building has some similarities to the one in the mug shot.
30970 30971
Voodoo_Man
01-09-15, 14:59
from what i've been reading they are saying she escaped.
youtube video of the Porte de Vincennes raid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hISqLRi2w28&feature=youtu.be
Lots of chaos during the hostage escapes. I can understand now how the female terrorist could have blended in and gotten away.
youtube video of the Porte de Vincennes raid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hISqLRi2w28&feature=youtu.be
Lots of chaos during the hostage escapes. I can understand now how the female terrorist could have blended in and gotten away.
Weird vid. I'm no expert on dynamic entry, but one lone guy enters and runs off to the right. The rest all seem to stay in their spot and blast away. Then someone (the guy who made entry?) comes running out. It seems like they are shooting at him, and cross fire on each other right at sec 32. What's happening there?
Voodoo_Man
01-09-15, 17:20
Weird vid. I'm no expert on dynamic entry, but one lone guy enters and runs off to the right. The rest all seem to stay in their spot and blast away. Then someone (the guy who made entry?) comes running out. It seems like they are shooting at him, and cross fire on each other right at sec 32. What's happening there?
...too many indians, not enough chiefs...
never thought i'd say that!
Weird vid. I'm no expert on dynamic entry, but one lone guy enters and runs off to the right. The rest all seem to stay in their spot and blast away. Then someone (the guy who made entry?) comes running out. It seems like they are shooting at him, and cross fire on each other right at sec 32. What's happening there?
I read the same analysis on lightfighter. The first SWAT guy that entered disappeared for a few seconds then came running back and appeared to be shot by his own team. Then at the end of the assault, they dragged him out by the car. He appeared to sit up. Hope he's not hurt badly.
youtube video of the Porte de Vincennes raid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hISqLRi2w28&feature=youtu.be
Lots of chaos during the hostage escapes. I can understand now how the female terrorist could have blended in and gotten away.
News reports said 4 hostages were killed at the supermarket raid. After watching that video, i wouldn't be surprised if 1 or 2 of those dead hostages actually got smoked by the police... They were wildly firing into that supermarket like a bunch of freakin cowboys. I'm no expert on raid tactics, but that looked pretty sloppy and unsafe to me. And why stack up 30+ officers so close like that? I would think 10-12 would have been sufficient, with backup around the corner? Call me crazy, but that seemed like a wild west cluster fck to me
Eurodriver
01-09-15, 17:41
Regardless of the tactics, my hat is off to French Gunfighters today.
They didn't wake up today wanting to get shot at, but put themselves in the doorway and faced down the barrel of many guns to save people they never met.
Weird vid. I'm no expert on dynamic entry, but one lone guy enters and runs off to the right. The rest all seem to stay in their spot and blast away. Then someone (the guy who made entry?) comes running out. It seems like they are shooting at him, and cross fire on each other right at sec 32. What's happening there?
I read the same analysis on lightfighter. The first SWAT guy that entered disappeared for a few seconds then came running back and appeared to be shot by his own team. Then at the end of the assault, they dragged him out by the car. He appeared to sit up. Hope he's not hurt badly.
CNN is presenting the person exiting as the BG....he did appear to have a baseball hat on...all I could think was "where were their rifles?" I did see at least one....suppose the hangun allows simultaneous use of the shield.
Regardless of the tactics, my hat is off to French Gunfighters today.
They didn't wake up today wanting to get shot at, but put themselves in the doorway and faced down the barrel of many guns to save people they never met.
Agreed. Unfortunately, I'm sure it won't be the last day like this they see. I fear this is the start of what many of us have feared for a while
I read the same analysis on lightfighter. The first SWAT guy that entered disappeared for a few seconds then came running back and appeared to be shot by his own team. Then at the end of the assault, they dragged him out by the car. He appeared to sit up. Hope he's not hurt badly.
I had thought they had sent their top HSLD guys. Vid didn't say HSLD to me, but I was not the one getting shot at. Vid I saw from the other, likely more dangerous event with the two brothers, entry looked more organized.
Here is the unedited version of the raid, and it's pretty bad. The RAID team lights up their own guy when he's coming back out, and it looks like a couple officers even shoot him multiple times while he's on the ground! I know the situation is crazy and all, and I hate to armchair quarterback, but that seems incredibly ridiculous.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=869_1420833044
Here is the unedited version of the raid, and it's pretty bad. The RAID team lights up their own guy when he's coming back out, and it looks like a couple officers even shoot him multiple times while he's on the ground! I know the situation is crazy and all, and I hate to armchair quarterback, but that seems incredibly ridiculous.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=869_1420833044
Jesus Christ. Looks like there just spraying everywhere.
Here is the unedited version of the raid, and it's pretty bad. The RAID team lights up their own guy when he's coming back out, and it looks like a couple officers even shoot him multiple times while he's on the ground! I know the situation is crazy and all, and I hate to armchair quarterback, but that seems incredibly ridiculous.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=869_1420833044
That was the BG
BoringGuy45
01-09-15, 19:54
Here is the unedited version of the raid, and it's pretty bad. The RAID team lights up their own guy when he's coming back out, and it looks like a couple officers even shoot him multiple times while he's on the ground! I know the situation is crazy and all, and I hate to armchair quarterback, but that seems incredibly ridiculous.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=869_1420833044
Was that RAID or one of the local National Police SWAT teams? If that was RAID, I have to wonder if GIGN would have done better? (Not that it would matter, the police and gendarmerie don't like when the one steps into the other's jurisdiction)
News reports said 4 hostages were killed at the supermarket raid. After watching that video, i wouldn't be surprised if 1 or 2 of those dead hostages actually got smoked by the police... They were wildly firing into that supermarket like a bunch of freakin cowboys. I'm no expert on raid tactics, but that looked pretty sloppy and unsafe to me. And why stack up 30+ officers so close like that? I would think 10-12 would have been sufficient, with backup around the corner? Call me crazy, but that seemed like a wild west cluster fck to me
The news said the hostages killed were killed prior to the police entry.
That was the BG
That would make more sense. It looked like their own guy coming back out (the officer they end up dragging off after the raid).
After watching the liveleak video, it does look like the guy the shot as he was rushing out was NOT their own SWAT guy that went in first. It was indeed the bad guy.
Here is the unedited version of the raid, and it's pretty bad. The RAID team lights up their own guy when he's coming back out, and it looks like a couple officers even shoot him multiple times while he's on the ground! I know the situation is crazy and all, and I hate to armchair quarterback, but that seems incredibly ridiculous.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=869_1420833044
Yep. Looks like the BG. The few extra pops were for added insurance. :) gotta make sure he's out cold.
Nothing wrong with turning the bad guy's head into a canoe.
Yeah, the person that got shot looks like he had an AK.
However, I too would like to know where the first SWAT guy went charging off to... :confused:
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-10-15, 00:28
Yeah, the person that got shot looks like he had an AK.
However, I too would like to know where the first SWAT guy went charging off to... :confused:
Follow me!!!! Guys? Guys???
There was a back entry too, right? Where the guys at the front the anvil and the other guys the hammer? Why else wait for the security gate to rise.
The windows surprise me.
1. They don't seem to get shot out from the guy inside.
2. They are lighting them up with flashlights as they approach.
3. Seems like it would be faster to go thru the window than wait for the security gate to roll up- plus more entry points. Though I assume there were security fences behind the windows? Seems common over there.
Hats off for the guys being brave, but if they didn't do it right- that is an issue. 'A' for effort doesn't apply to gunfights. Maybe that was exactly the plan and it worked perfectly. I'd hate to see what people would say after they watch a 0:45 clip of me at work; and I don't get shot at.
Mauser KAR98K
01-10-15, 07:15
Follow me!!!! Guys? Guys???
There was a back entry too, right? Where the guys at the front the anvil and the other guys the hammer? Why else wait for the security gate to rise.
The windows surprise me.
1. They don't seem to get shot out from the guy inside.
2. They are lighting them up with flashlights as they approach.
3. Seems like it would be faster to go thru the window than wait for the security gate to roll up- plus more entry points. Though I assume there were security fences behind the windows? Seems common over there.
Hats off for the guys being brave, but if they didn't do it right- that is an issue. 'A' for effort doesn't apply to gunfights. Maybe that was exactly the plan and it worked perfectly. I'd hate to see what people would say after they watch a 0:45 clip of me at work; and I don't get shot at.
That is sig line material right there.
ForTehNguyen
01-10-15, 08:26
I read they had a listening device planted and they attacked when he was praying
Weird vid. I'm no expert on dynamic entry, but one lone guy enters and runs off to the right. The rest all seem to stay in their spot and blast away. Then someone (the guy who made entry?) comes running out. It seems like they are shooting at him, and cross fire on each other right at sec 32. What's happening there?
That is not even remotely close to what should have happened. That is what we called a cluster**** when I was in the Navy. Apparently no-one was in charge at the scene.
A four or eight man stack is all that should have been required based on the threat. Leave it to the French to innovate an 80 man herd stack.
You can bet there will be some training done with that video, both in France and elsewhere on how not to enter.
That is not even remotely close to what should have happened. That is what we called a cluster**** when I was in the Navy. Apparently no-one was in charge at the scene.
A four or eight man stack is all that should have been required based on the threat. Leave it to the French to innovate an 80 man herd stack.
You can bet there will be some training done with that video, both in France and elsewhere on how not to enter.
No doubt.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-10-15, 09:46
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/01/we-are-not-all-charlie-hebdo-attack/384319/
Not what I would expect from The Atlantic.
We are not all Charlie. Much of Europe, which, as a political entity, is not fully grappling with the totalitarian madness of Islamism, is not Charlie.
Stupid is in the eye of the beholder. To me, it seems stupid and self-destructive to let men with guns tell us what we can or cannot write, or read.
Do you know who else isn’t Charlie? Barack Obama isn’t Charlie. This is from a speech the president delivered to the United Nations General Assembly in 2012:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/01/we-are-not-all-charlie-hebdo-attack/384319/
Not what I would expect from The Atlantic.
Yes, not what you'd expect. This quote:
"Stupid is in the eye of the beholder. To me, it seems stupid and self-destructive to let men with guns tell us what we can or cannot write, or read."
I agree, but the only thing that stops men with guns from telling you what you can and cannot read, are men with guns. Until they realize words don't mean a damn thing to Muslim "radicals" who have no concept at all of freedom of speech and other Rights we hold as inalienable, nothing changes. Words are nice, but the man with the gun willing to commit violence wins over words, no matter how noble, every time.
What's the appropriate response?
What's the appropriate response?
Kill them all.
"Yet the reason that some people with guns prefer to kill some people who use pens is always the same: because it is effective. Terror works.
The gun is mightier. In fact, the pen’s might depends on the might of the gun. In America, where we have the greatest degree of protection for the greatest extent of free expression of any society on earth, that freedom derives from the penmen who wrote the Constitution persuading the gunmen who defend and uphold it that this arrangement is in everyone’s best interest. It is a magnificent compact, but hardly inevitable. It has proved surprisingly solid over time, but it requires constant defense..."
http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/pen-vs-gun-charlie-hebdo?intcid=mod-yml
Mauser KAR98K
01-11-15, 08:26
http://youtu.be/tCiVq284mNg
I'll just leave this here.
So based on that video and the bad guy charging outside to get shot, I'm going to guess the poor bastard who ran in by himself didn't make it, what a shame.
Mauser KAR98K
01-11-15, 08:42
So based on that video and the bad guy charging outside to get shot, I'm going to guess the poor bastard who ran in by himself didn't make it, what a shame.
It looked like Leroy got tagged by his own buddies.
Voodoo_Man
01-11-15, 09:40
crossfire much?
https://i.imgur.com/NAAoQra.gif
It looked like Leroy got tagged by his own buddies.
You're joking right?
At first glance, I thought it looked like the cop that ran in was shot by his buddies as he ran out, but I figured I just saw it incorrectly and assumed it was a bad guy charging them. If it was indeed the officer who ran in, getting shot by his fellow officers, my disgust for France has reached an entirely new level.
ETA: Whoever it was, he didn't just get tagged, he got riddled with bullets. What a bunch of losers.
Inkslinger
01-11-15, 10:09
You're joking right?
At first glance, I thought it looked like the cop that ran in was shot by his buddies as he ran out, but I figured I just saw it incorrectly and assumed it was a bad guy charging them. If it was indeed the officer who ran in, getting shot by his fellow officers, my disgust for France has reached an entirely new level.
ETA: Now that I see the loop posted by Voodoo it is pretty clear it was the guy who ran in and figured out he was alone. I suppose he had no idea the idiots would not only leave him in there alone but shoot him as he ran out.
He didn't just get tagged, he got riddled with bullets. What a bunch of losers.
It is the BG, not the officer.
It is the BG, not the officer.
I've seen it both ways now. I must be going blind, I certainly hope it was the bad guy. Regardless, that has to be the poster child for a poorly executed "entry".
crossfire much?
https://i.imgur.com/NAAoQra.gif
I'm not expert here, but is not one of various reasons you set up the stack in such a way as to avoid cross fire no? It seems 100% likely they were absorbing rnds to their shields/vests in that cross fire. I'd love to read the AAR on that, but will have to rely on what's released to the media, so may be worthless. I'm wondering what the actual plan and if the bad guy simple decided he was not going to follow it...
Perhaps they were supposed to be the anvil/blocking force and the guys coming in the rear door (which looked to me like a more organized set up) were the entry team, and the bad guy decided to alter the game plan with his own plans and it went wild west?
The one guy scooting in alone to the right at the start is puzzling.
No reports of police deaths during that entry no?
Voodoo_Man
01-11-15, 10:50
I'm not expert here, but is not one of various reasons you set up the stack in such a way as to avoid cross fire no? It seems 100% likely they were absorbing rnds to their shields/vests in that cross fire. I'd love to read the AAR on that, but will have to rely on what's released to the media, so may be worthless. I'm wondering what the actual plan and if the bad guy simple decided he was not going to follow it...
Perhaps they were supposed to be the anvil/blocking force and the guys coming in the rear door (which looked to me like a more organized set up) were the entry team, and the bad guy decided to alter the game plan with his own plans and it went wild west?
The one guy scooting in alone to the right at the start is puzzling.
No reports of police deaths during that entry no?
That is exactly why you NEVER parallel the train (stack).
Double-stacks on opposing sides do exactly that, get you shot in crossfire.
They will undoubetly be getting better training.
I'm not expert here, but is not one of various reasons you set up the stack in such a way as to avoid cross fire no? It seems 100% likely they were absorbing rnds to their shields/vests in that cross fire. I'd love to read the AAR on that, but will have to rely on what's released to the media, so may be worthless. I'm wondering what the actual plan and if the bad guy simple decided he was not going to follow it...
Perhaps they were supposed to be the anvil/blocking force and the guys coming in the rear door (which looked to me like a more organized set up) were the entry team, and the bad guy decided to alter the game plan with his own plans and it went wild west?
The one guy scooting in alone to the right at the start is puzzling.
No reports of police deaths during that entry no?
Calling either of those bunches of cops "stacks" is a pretty significant stretch.
The guy scooting around to the right was likely the only one who did the right thing.
They should have been briefed on the layout of the room and he was likely going to the long side which is pretty standard practice. Based on what I can see and the door location he follow standard room clearing entry protocol. Trouble is, everyone else stayed outside, in their double sided bunch and shot randomly into the room he just entered. This was so poorly executed it is barely worth talking about.
Calling either of those bunches of cops "stacks" is a pretty significant stretch.
The guy scooting around to the right was likely the only one who did the right thing.
They should have been briefed on the layout of the room and he was likely going to the long side which is pretty standard practice. Based on what I can see and the door location he follow standard room clearing entry protocol. Trouble is, everyone else stayed outside, in their double sided bunch and shot randomly into the room he just entered. This was so poorly executed it is barely worth talking about.
Just doing my best to ask Qs while staying in my own lane and not make armchair commando comments. So, I'm leaving it to those with the quals/creds to comment. It looks very poorly organized to my un trained eye. Having spend zero time on two way ranges, I don't want to be critical minus the intel and background to do so.
Mauser KAR98K
01-11-15, 13:51
You're joking right?
At first glance, I thought it looked like the cop that ran in was shot by his buddies as he ran out, but I figured I just saw it incorrectly and assumed it was a bad guy charging them. If it was indeed the officer who ran in, getting shot by his fellow officers, my disgust for France has reached an entirely new level.
ETA: Whoever it was, he didn't just get tagged, he got riddled with bullets. What a bunch of losers.
As he moves to right, shooting, just before he kneels, it looks like he was shot in the back by his teammate. He flinched to indicate this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jetpfZqXdrw
The cops continue shooting the guy who ran out, even after he was down. Surely he was the bad guy. See 44 seconds. Note injured cop at 1:05.
Lots of confusing posts by many people here who did not follow the thread.
The individual tha ran toward the cops and was shot to the ground was the terrorist. That was not the SWAT guy with the shield that made the initial entry by himself.
There are plenty of still photographs after the raid showing the shot up dead body of the African born terrorist. They can be seen at liveleak.
4 million march in solidarity against "radical Islam"
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/11/are-charlie-thousands-to-march-to-honor-victims-paris-attack/
They sure do know how to get people to rally against them. Though I'll believe it when I see it considering Frances history of cowardice.
They sure do know how to get people to rally against them. Though I'll believe it when I see it considering Frances history of cowardice.
What's really sad is I've spoken to a number of people in the past few days, some friends, others standing in line at Tim Horton's glancing at the TV, and they didn't even know this whole incident had even happened.
At shul(synagogue) this past week, we had many from Chicago, NYC, etc. here for vacation(skiing). As in big time liberal, make me throw up in my mouth types. We never leave the house unarmed now. So, I am praying, then talking, eating, drinking, etc. and multiple people have noticed I am armed. I have two very small children so try as I might, there is no way to be totally inconspicuous when picking up kids, playing, etc. On a side note, our Rabbi is totally onboard with people being armed. Back on track; Jews being armed during worship is not a new idea.
I had several "yankee" Jews quietly ask about firearms, show thanks for me being armed, etc.
I have NEVER seen this before. Slowly, glacial pace, I think some are beginning to wake up. Let's hope many more do.
Are they still going with the theory that 3 suspects were involved in the Charlie Hebdo shooting - 2 shooters and a driver? If so, who was the third shooter? I know that the Kouachi brothers were identified as the shooters. However, a third suspect turned himself in and had a solid alibi. I've not heard any evidence that places the Kosher Market shooter, Coulibaly, at the Charlie Hebdo scene. In addition, Coulibaly's hoochie mamma appears to have fled for Syria several days before the attacks. So, who is the 3rd terrorist?
MountainRaven
01-12-15, 22:51
They sure do know how to get people to rally against them. Though I'll believe it when I see it considering Frances history of cowardice.
Pissing on Lafayette's tomb, are we?
Magic_Salad0892
01-13-15, 04:05
I was wondering what M4C would have to say about this. I have some catching up to do.
Magic_Salad0892
01-13-15, 04:06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026050389
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014982407
:blink:
The "security forces" might be "brutal"? Wow. I thought murdering 12 innocent journalists was harmful to peace and integration, but I guess I've been mistaken.
Writing about Mohammed is unfair to Muslims? But apparently making fun of Jesus, and Jews is okay...
Eurodriver
01-13-15, 06:08
Writing about Mohammed is unfair to Muslims? But apparently making fun of Jesus, and Jews is okay...
Duh.
Remember Neil DeGrasse Tysons Twitter storm on Christmas?
I wonder if he posts similar nonsense during Ramadan.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Muslims are a friend of the left simply because they know the left has no backbone. Just shoot a few liberals and bomb a school and they will submit to you. Similarly, the left doesn't insult Islam because they are afraid, but they are not afraid of Jews and Christians so the attacks pour in...
On a side note, Did anyone watch the Golden Globes? Don't worry, I didn't either. But I thought it was terribly interesting that the SAME HOLLYWOOD that caved to terrorists just weeks agowere all wearing Je Suis Charlie pins.
A member that doesn't have enough post count to post here PM me this link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2906360/Special-forces-officer-reveals-deli-jihadist-shot-40-times-spurred-working-50-hours-straight-thought-avenging-colleague-shot-street.html
Apparently, the terrorist at the deli was shot around 40 times.
Eurodriver
01-13-15, 06:11
Newest Cover.
"All is forgiven"
http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-cover-603x800.png
and on top of it sadly the left will then also say well we did so much bad things to the muslims they kinda have the right to hit back or some other idiocy along those lines ?
and its not the muslims that are doing this just a few bad people so quit being a islamaphobic typer of person
Duh.
Remember Neil DeGrasse Tysons Twitter storm on Christmas?
I wonder if he posts similar nonsense during Ramadan.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Muslims are a friend of the left simply because they know the left has no backbone. Just shoot a few liberals and bomb a school and they will submit to you. Similarly, the left doesn't insult Islam because they are afraid, but they are not afraid of Jews and Christians so the attacks pour in...
On a side note, Did anyone watch the Golden Globes? Don't worry, I didn't either. But I thought it was terribly interesting that the SAME HOLLYWOOD that caved to terrorists just weeks agowere all wearing Je Suis Charlie pins.
Eurodriver
01-13-15, 06:51
and on top of it sadly the left will then also say well we did so much bad things to the muslims they kinda have the right to hit back or some other idiocy along those lines ?
and its not the muslims that are doing this just a few bad people so quit being a islamaphobic typer of person
Exactly, and an excellent point.
"How many Muslim children are killed every day by French jets over Syria?" Is already something I've heard.
Eurodriver
01-13-15, 06:56
Has any word come out about who fired the shots that killed the hostages?
I read the link Sam posted, it had some good info. I can't help but wonder how many of those in that freezer had at one point embraced multi culturalism?
Has any word come out about who fired the shots that killed the hostages?
I read the link Sam posted, it had some good info. I can't help but wonder how many of those in that freezer had at one point embraced multi culturalism?
I don't think the problem is multi culturalism so much as it's people in a country practicing multi culturalism who wish to replace them all with THEIR culture. Of course that may be more or less the point you are making.
Newest Cover.
"All is forgiven"
ETA: never mind. I got the back story. Still doesn't look like Mohammed
Here's the weapons list for the terrorists. Given this list, and the fact at least one of them had some training and they had time to plan, I amazed far more people were not killed or injured. Obviously, the lesson here is, even one of the most restrictive countries for guns, etc, terrorists had zero problems getting what they wanted. French reaction is of course a loser and the basic lesson lost on them and others who think it's a hardware problem. The lesson here - terrorists and criminals always have access to weapons - will be lost on the French and other nations where they fear their citizens more than criminals and terrorists:
"The irony here is that the Paris attack occurred in a country with one of the strongest gun control restrictions in the world. You had people just 10 to 12 meters from the terrorists who were able to film them on their cell phones but they were unable to do anything to stop the attack. Yet, at the same time the laws hadn’t stopped the terrorists from being massively armed.
The four terrorists had body armor and radio communications. They were armed with numerous semi-automatic handguns, automatic Kalashnikov rifles, a loaded M42 rocket launcher, 10 Molotov cocktails, 10 smoke grenades, a hand grenade, and 15 sticks of dynamite.
In France, handguns (both pistols and revolvers), fully automatic firearms, and even semi-automatic “assault weapons” are prohibited with only extremely narrow exemptions. Loaded rocket launchers and grenades are also banned. Yet, despite bans and these terrorists having criminals records, these terrorists did possess all these weapons.
It is clear that the funding and weapons for the attack came from abroad.
Unfortunately, the French think that the solution is to station 10,000 troops in front of Jewish sites across the country. The problem is that there are so many possible targets, at times when the terrorists pick to attack, that there is no way that the troops can protect all the possible targets, even if they many times more than 10,000 troops. In addition, the terrorists can kill the uniformed troops before they start killing other people. It is an extremely difficult job for troops to be constantly vigilant day after day, week after week, month after month.
Information on French gun laws is available here:"
http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2015/01/the-long-list-of-illegal-weapons-used-by-the-terrorists-in-the-paris-attack/
To play devils advocate for a moment, the counter argument made will be "so because laws can't stop all crime, crime shouldn't be illegal?" and then they will point to a firearm homicide rate 28x lower than America's.
This event is not useful for pushing for less gun control. It actually hurts the pro-gun movement to attempt to use it.
To play devils advocate for a moment, the counter argument made will be "so because laws can't stop all crime, crime shouldn't be illegal?" and then they will point to a firearm homicide rate 28x lower than America's.
This event is not useful for pushing for less gun control. It actually hurts the pro-gun movement to attempt to use it.
I'm not tracking the above, but understand it's devils advocate discussion.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-14-15, 09:45
To play devils advocate for a moment, the counter argument made will be "so because laws can't stop all crime, crime shouldn't be illegal?" and then they will point to a firearm homicide rate 28x lower than America's.
This event is not useful for pushing for less gun control. It actually hurts the pro-gun movement to attempt to use it.
I think the first point is the 'stop sign argument'- if there are people who are going to run stop signs (ie break gun laws) why have stop signs (gun laws) at all. I have a really hard time even understanding what the parallelism is there. Me owning a gun, a 15+ round magazine doesn't interfere with others use the public commons. The stop sign analogy would be more apt for firing the gun in public than mere possession.
The difference is laws that try to prevent crime versus punish crime. The stop sign argument is about trying to prevent accidents- not punishing people who cause accidents. Prosecute people shooting people (an actual harm) not possessing guns (which hurts no one). 300,000,000 guns in the US and a fraction are used in murders ever year 0.0005% or so?
To play their stop sign game, ask them if the answer to a few people not obeying the stop sign law- is the answer to take everyones' cars away? I actually think that I'm onto something there.
The lefts argument that more gun control would stop acts like this is totally without basis. They are trying to blend legal gun ownership with terrorism. Either the point is the higher gun crime rate or it is terrorism- the two are separate issues.
Trying to have a coherent argument with the anti-self protection left is really difficult due to their lack of understanding of the facts and realities of firearms, while at the same time, their only goal is 'get rid of guns' so they have the end answer and they put any argument in front of that to justify it.
Where is Belloc, he rocks this logic and rhetoric stuff.
A welcome breath of fresh air from a European Muslim leader:
http://heavy.com/news/2015/01/ahmed-aboutaleb-rotterdam-netherlands-tells-islamists-muslims-****-off-youtube-video/
A welcome breath of fresh air from a European Muslim leader:
http://heavy.com/news/2015/01/ahmed-aboutaleb-rotterdam-netherlands-tells-islamists-muslims-****-off-youtube-video/
"page not found"
"page not found"
Well let's try a different source:
Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam tells fellow Muslims who do not appreciate the 'freedoms' of living in the West to 'pack your bags and f*** off' on live TV
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2907941/Moroccan-born-mayor-Rotterdam-tells-fellow-Muslims-not-appreciate-freedoms-living-West-pack-bags-f-live-TV.html
Well let's try a different source:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2907941/Moroccan-born-mayor-Rotterdam-tells-fellow-Muslims-not-appreciate-freedoms-living-West-pack-bags-f-live-TV.html
"It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom,' Mayor Aboutaleb told Dutch current affairs program Nieuwsuur (Newshour).
'But if you don't like freedom, for heaven's sake pack your bags and leave.
'If you do not like it here because some humorists you don't like are making a newspaper, may I then say you can f*** off."
Works for me....
Plumber237
01-14-15, 16:18
The big issue that I have whenever someone uses a guns to cars analogy to prove a point is that driving=privilege, while guns=right. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine, it makes for a wasted argument in my mind.
The big issue that I have whenever someone uses a guns to cars analogy to prove a point is that driving=privilege, while guns=right. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine, it makes for a wasted argument in my mind.
May think driving is a right, many think owning a gun is a privilege, many don't have any idea how important protecting their Rights (capital R) are, until they are removed and there's not a damn thing they can do about it. Hence what they say about those who ignore history and all that...
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-14-15, 17:45
We let people own cars that can far exceed the legal driving limits, but we make unlawful the use of those capabilities. Why not limit cars to 65mph and give them 40hp engines?
We let people own cars that can far exceed the legal driving limits, but we make unlawful the use of those capabilities. Why not limit cars to 65mph and give them 40hp engines?
If that happened I would suck start one of my pistols...
They sure do know how to get people to rally against them. Though I'll believe it when I see it considering Frances history of cowardice.
Well now let's not throw them all under the bus just yet...
http://www.breachbangclear.com/contributor-chris-hernandez-on-working-with-the-french-army/
http://www.breachbangclear.com/you-do-not-know-what-you-dont-know-and-the-jokes-are-wrong/
http://www.breachbangclear.com/the-truth-about-the-french-army-pt-iii-getting-into-fights/
A member that doesn't have enough post count to post here PM me this link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2906360/Special-forces-officer-reveals-deli-jihadist-shot-40-times-spurred-working-50-hours-straight-thought-avenging-colleague-shot-street.html
Apparently, the terrorist at the deli was shot around 40 times.
Good.
Exactly, and an excellent point.
"How many Muslim children are killed every day by French jets over Syria?" Is already something I've heard.
Social Justice!
:rolleyes:
MountainRaven
01-14-15, 22:46
Exactly, and an excellent point.
"How many Muslim children are killed every day by French jets over Syria?" Is already something I've heard.
I've been hearing a lot about how Christians are apparently burning and bombing mosques across Europe, now.
Of course, then there was an interview on NPR on Monday with a French Muslim who pointed out that you cannot morally equivocate between a few minor incidents of idiots attacking empty buildings and a small group of people gunning down a dozen unarmed citizens over a cartoon.
People who I never imagined would say, "Meh, you're not free from the consequences of your actions," are talking about how Charlie Hebdo's staff brought the attack on themselves and how, "Charlie Hebdo incited people to kill people working for Charlie Hebdo." And because inciting people to kill is a crime, it somehow partially absolves these Islamist freaks from their responsibility for having killed ten satirists and two cops.
The big issue that I have whenever someone uses a guns to cars analogy to prove a point is that driving=privilege, while guns=right. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine, it makes for a wasted argument in my mind.
Freedom of travel is a right. Tyranny often starts with controlling the means of travel. "Deine Papieren, bitte," ought to spring to mind.
Furthermore, you do not need a driver's license to drive a car. You do not need to insure a car to own one. You need these things to drive on public roads - roads which are paid for by and belong to the government and therefore the government gets to set the rules. But on your own property - or any other private property, or even on public property where off-roading is permitted or no official roadways exist, you need none of these things. Obviously, it is difficult to travel with a car if you cannot use public roads, but sometimes life sucks like that.
Point being that you do not need insurance or a license to possess and operate an automobile under the law.
unless you mean hearing this from friends ? ask them for sources !!!!
if you are hearing it ? then would like to see news links
besides the one that had pigs heads and a fire bomb thrown in thats all I have really heard and did not hear it being done in the name of Christ
considering this
"“The terrorists’ religion is not Islam, which they are betraying,” Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said last week. “It’s barbarity.”"
I can see many being sick of whats happening
if Christians were burning mosques down it would be all over the news and of course all the left would love to jump on the Christians as the Dangerous ones so just more BS but can also see it happening and being blamed on Christians
I've been hearing a lot about how Christians are apparently burning and bombing mosques across Europe, now.
Of course, then there was an interview on NPR on Monday with a French Muslim who pointed out that you cannot morally equivocate between a few minor incidents of idiots attacking empty buildings and a small group of people gunning down a dozen unarmed citizens over a cartoon.
People who I never imagined would say, "Meh, you're not free from the consequences of your actions," are talking about how Charlie Hebdo's staff brought the attack on themselves and how, "Charlie Hebdo incited people to kill people working for Charlie Hebdo." And because inciting people to kill is a crime, it somehow partially absolves these Islamist freaks from their responsibility for having killed ten satirists and two cops.
Freedom of travel is a right. Tyranny often starts with controlling the means of travel. "Deine Papieren, bitte," ought to spring to mind.
Furthermore, you do not need a driver's license to drive a car. You do not need to insure a car to own one. You need these things to drive on public roads - roads which are paid for by and belong to the government and therefore the government gets to set the rules. But on your own property - or any other private property, or even on public property where off-roading is permitted or no official roadways exist, you need none of these things. Obviously, it is difficult to travel with a car if you cannot use public roads, but sometimes life sucks like that.
Point being that you do not need insurance or a license to possess and operate an automobile under the law.
People who I never imagined would say, "Meh, you're not free from the consequences of your actions," are talking about how Charlie Hebdo's staff brought the attack on themselves and how, "Charlie Hebdo incited people to kill people working for Charlie Hebdo." And because inciting people to kill is a crime, it somehow partially absolves these Islamist freaks from their responsibility for having killed ten satirists and two cops.
If they're going down the moral equivalency rabbit hole, then they should be willing to admit that it would be the fault of Muslims criticizing Christianity and European community standards if they themselves were subjected to slaughter, no? :rolleyes:
Te Pope says....
When religion insulted, freedom of expression not boundless
There are limits to freedom of expression when religion is insulted, Pope Francis has said in reference to the cartoons in the French satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo. However, he also pointed out that killing in God’s name is an "absurdity."
Francis spoke to reporters on a flight from Sri Lanka to the Philippines.
Answering questions on the Paris attack on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, he said that freedom of expression was a “fundamental human right” like freedom of religion, but it should be exercised “without giving offense,” the Catholic News Service reports.
“One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people’s faith, one cannot make fun of faith,” Francis said, adding that every religion “has its dignity.”
The Pope said that one can react violently when being offended. He offered an example, referring to his trip planner saying that if his “great friend says a swear word against my mother, then he is going to get a punch. But it’s normal, it’s normal.”
However he added that “one cannot offend, make war, kill in the name of one’s own religion, that is, in the name of God.”
http://rt.com/news/222935-pope-religion-freedom-insulted/
Averageman
01-15-15, 08:25
It would seem that Western Civilization and Islam have some compatibility issues, but them nearly every religion has morale issues with the modern world.
The irony to me is that many of the people immigrating from war torn countries have been Muslim and upon getting the West where they are safe, a small minority immediately become offended by the society that took them in and provided safety.
The end result seems to be a lot of people who are alienated by a society they neither understand nor want to participate in. The end result is poverty, dependency upon social services and animosity against the very people who saved them from what was happening in their country of origin.
To some degree this has been the fate of many immigrants, but the dynamics of radical Islam add a great danger to the whole mix. Now you can be encouraged to take up arms to bite the very hand that feeds you.
The great bounty of Western Civilization draws people to it, however their must be rules to immigration and assimilation.
If you cannot cope, if you are so angry about your situation and so offended by the customs and citizens that saved you, please feel free to go back home, or to your families country of origin if you were born here.
In other words, If you are stuck in a place that so insults your sensibilities that you feel the need to pick up a gun and strike out at society, the better idea would be for you to find a place in this world where you aren't offended. Gather your stuff and move and never look back.
I have no problem with poking fun at anyone's faith, social norms or traditions. That's part of a free society, you have to put up with a bit of it to be here, if the Pope doesn't understand that, he is simply wrong. Your faith is not protected from the First Amendment and those who would criticize it.
The Pope making statements like that is exactly why and how pedophile Priests were allowed to commit their crimes and get away with it for years.
So the Pope is wrong and those who come here and demand that our society conforms to them are wrong. Clearly if you hate the place you are in and feel so insulted that you have to live in a modern and free society, please leave and take your troubles and hurt feelings back to your own home.
Eurodriver
01-15-15, 08:49
In context, I agree with what the Pope says.
I just know the media is going to twist it into the complete opposite of what he said.
In context, I agree with what the Pope says.
I just know the media is going to twist it into the complete opposite of what he said.
That's what the media does so well. However, seems to me the Pope is talking out of both sides of his mouth on that, and like many a religious leader, does not actually "get" what freedom of speech actually means.
Averageman
01-15-15, 09:23
That's what the media does so well. However, seems to me the Pope is talking out of both sides of his mouth on that, and like many a religious leader, does not actually "get" what freedom of speech actually means.
As I said above, that's the mindset that allowed pedophile Priests to get away with their crimes, no one wanted to question their beliefs or bring charges against the church, so just how many lives were ruined?
As I said above, that's the mindset that allowed pedophile Priests to get away with their crimes, no one wanted to question their beliefs or bring charges against the church, so just how many lives were ruined?
Yes, well, that's a whole other ugly topic right there.
Here's an interesting bit of info and pictures.
Looks like the brothers got their hands on a LAWS.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2906876/Moment-Charlie-Hebdo-gunmen-rob-petrol-station-ROCKET-LAUNCHER-hours-massacre-French-magazine.html
That "thetruthaboutguns" website is a waste of space. I get all sorts of advertising malware warnings when I click on that site. No thanks. I would suggest you remove it from your list of sites to follow. What a blight on the firearm community.
The article asserts several times that they weren't very bright. True? I wonder.
That "thetruthaboutguns" website is a waste of space. I get all sorts of advertising malware warnings when I click on that site. No thanks. I would suggest you remove it from your list of sites to follow. What a blight on the firearm community.
The article asserts several times that they weren't very bright. True? I wonder.
Yeah, I got that from elsewhere, and it's not a good article. And, the good info is in the other link. The picture of the two brothers robbing the convenience store carrying what appears to be a LAWS rocket is most interesting.
After world political leaders lock arms and march with millions in Paris to defend free speech, France cracks down on free speech.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/01/daniel-mcadams/a-noxious-cloud-of-hypocrisy/
Eurodriver
01-16-15, 19:41
France has been a mess for quite some time.
The Bastille will be stormed again soon. However, I cannot tell you who will be storming it - nor can I tell you who will be inside.
France has been a mess for quite some time.
The Bastille will be stormed again soon. However, I cannot tell you who will be storming it - nor can I tell you who will be inside.
That would certainly be interesting to see, since it was actually destroyed not long after it was stormed. :smile:
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