View Full Version : Looking to finally take my first high round pistol course.
Mauser KAR98K
01-08-15, 23:25
For once I am I a position to take a high round pistol course through an SME this year, but I'm plagued with choices and cost. Granted I have not yet signed up (am getting close and hope I get into one), but I'm banging my head on what weapon to take.
My goal is to become a much better shooter with a pistol as I'm currently with my carbine. I took a carbine course in 2012 and it had mark improvement to not only in weapon handling, what I am looking for in drills, but also weapon up-keep and what gear does and does not work. I am wanting the same experience this time with a pistol, though I grew shooting handgunstars before rifles. Since I carry a handgun more than I do my carbine, it is only natural. Lately, I have been unsatisfied with my weapon handling with a pistol.
My biggest decision is what caliber. I have two USPs that have become my primary weapon system. One is in 9mm, the othe is a 45. I am more proficient with the 45, and is the one I am gravitating towards. However er, I have more rounds down range with the USP9, though I feel less proficient with it.
The other driving force is ammo cost. Going with the 45 is looking to cost about $700 for 2,000 rounds. 9mm would save me about $300. (Which could be gas and lodging).
I have all the equipment I need for the 9mm, while I would need to get two more mags for the 45. No big deal except it is HK.
My questions are:
Should I take my USP9 to get more confident with it, which could cross over to the 45, and save ammo costs, or take what I feel is my primary handgun choice and eat the cost?
How safe is freedom munitions to run on a high round count course?
What other things should I be concerned with?
Take the pistol that you carry.
Take the pistol that you carry.
Agreed. You have to decide which one you are most likely to carry and use. And though I have not used a significant amount of the FM I have been stocking, I know at the very least Mike Pannone was shooting it at the class I attended with him.
Mauser KAR98K
01-09-15, 00:35
Take the pistol that you carry.
Oddly enough it is currently a P30s in 40. I carry it right now more out of convenience as it is a fair smaller.
I'd take the P30s, but that's based on my priorities (your's may differ). I want to be the best I can with my carry gun, and vice versa I carry the gun that I preform the best with. I don't really "train" or "practice" with other pistols. I'll shoot other things at the range for fun, but I spend the most time behind my carry gun or an identical practice gun.
Between the USP 9 and 45? Take the 9, it's a no brainer. Cheaper ammo, you have all the hardware that you want, and if it truly is a high round count class, you'll be much happier with the 9 than the 45 from a recoil stand point.
Also, as a side note, try not to get caught up in bringing what you preform best with to a class. You're going there to learn, not to impress the instructor or the other students. As long as you're safe, it's okay to suck a bit.
Mauser KAR98K
01-09-15, 07:02
I'd take the P30s, but that's based on my priorities (your's may differ). I want to be the best I can with my carry gun, and vice versa I carry the gun that I preform the best with. I don't really "train" or "practice" with other pistols. I'll shoot other things at the range for fun, but I spend the most time behind my carry gun or an identical practice gun.
Between the USP 9 and 45? Take the 9, it's a no brainer. Cheaper ammo, you have all the hardware that you want, and if it truly is a high round count class, you'll be much happier with the 9 than the 45 from a recoil stand point.
Also, as a side note, try not to get caught up in bringing what you preform best with to a class. You're going there to learn, not to impress the instructor or the other students. As long as you're safe, it's okay to suck a bit.
I'm not going to take my P30 for a few reasons. One, I do not have a back up weapon in .40s&w. I do want to do 2,000 through a .40. (.45 is easier on my hand). Finally, I'm treating this as a combat pistol course, not a ccw course, so I'm taking a gun belt over my EDC. I do have a IWB holster for my USPs that will go with me as I will ccw the one I take with me.
In al honesty, I like the P30, and would late it if I had the Ls varient.
Roger that on not im pressing others, which really isn't my intent, bit I see where you are tracking. I'm just trying to decide do I make myself more proficient with the 45, or do I work on the hang ups I have with my USP9 with an instructor and 2000 rounds? I honestly I have more rounds down range with the USP9 and should be a no brained in taking it, however, the 45 is my go to weapon since I have gotten it.
You know, I went through this exact same scenario with myself a couple years ago. Long story short, I’ve now taken my USP45 to three “high round count” classes (all about 2,000 rounds or more). I really like that gun and shoot it very well. I’ve also taken my USP9 to one and my P30 40 V1 to one.
I decided I really wanted to take the 45 and bit the bullet, per say, and bought some more mags for it and the ammo. Thing is, the class was with Costa and I wasn’t sure if the opportunity would present itself again to train with him again so I wanted to take my favorite gun. Then, I was able to go the next year, and the next year so I kept taking it… I loved using it in the classes. Basically I would horde 45 throughout the year and I wouldn’t shoot any of it until the classes.
That said, I am not going to take it to anymore classes (as of now, anyway). I am going to start using my P30L9 V1 just because of the cost of ammo and such. Plus now I carry the P30 so I am transitioning to that platform.
So I’ve been on both sides of that fence. I’d say take whatever you want. I don’t think not taking your EDC gun is that big of a deal because the skills you learn will transfer. I carried a USPc40 at the time but ran the USP45 fullsize in the class. I’d say take and use whatever you feel comfortable with. You’ll have more fun.
PS – Your USPs should eat up FM fine… mine do.
My questions are:
Should I take my USP9 to get more confident with it, which could cross over to the 45, and save ammo costs...
If it were me, this is what I would do. ^^^
Congratulations on your opportunity to take a course. It can be a great opportunity from which you will draw knowledge and experience. In order to ensure this I would highly recommend that you go with a pistol that you intend to carry and use on a regular basis. From that point don't compromise on the quality of the ammunition as you will not have a great time if you are constantly having to deal with FTFs, FTE's etc. You will also want to take a course that has a good instructor to student ratio. You do not want to take a course that is going to have you and 22 others competing for an instructors attention. I would recommend that you confirm the instructor to student ratio to the greatest extent possible before signing up for the course. In terms of instructors, find one that will make you accountable for your shots and diagnose your issues. Too many will not have the time or concern to do this and you will walk away with overall knowledge, but not a lot of personal instruction. Prepare your gear, work with it before the course and you will ensure success. People show up in large numbers with equipment that they though was cool, but that they have not worked with prior to the course and this results in epic failure and distractions that are easily avoidable. You don't have to look like a ninja to learn. Finally consider the range that you will be going to and the weather. Training in 100+ degree heat is tolerated when the government is paying, but on your dime suffering through weather extremes is not conducive to a great learning experience.
Put me in the "bring the 9" column.
I have only heard good things about FM(no personal experience), but if you're not sure, I'd buy a couple hundred rounds ahead of time and run it through whatever gun you choose to bring, just to make sure and for peace of mind.
I'd also recommend bringing a simple set up for class, like a basic pistol belt of some sort. I typically bring my training belt and a spare holster and mag pouch combo.
I've had issues with 9mm from FM. Multiple FTF on my polymer pistols (G19, PPQ & M&P), but no problem on Sigs (938, 226, & 2022).
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Personally, unless it is a course designed to work from concealment, I take a full size pistol over a mid size or compact, as in general the principles are easier to apply with the larger pistol. I also take 9mm whenever possible, as the ammo is cheaper, I will not need as many mags/carriers, and the lower recoil lets me concentrate more on learning what is being taught than on getting beat up by the pistol in a high round count class.
I feel this lets me focus on the material and picking up what is being taught while I am there with the instructor. When I get home I can work on applying the principles to weapons that are harder to shoot, or that I am not as confident with.
I would look for a deal on CCI Blazer rounds. The 9mm USP seems like a no brainer to take for your class, particularly considering the price of ammo.
Link:http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1301664333/cci-blazer-ammunition-9mm-luger-115-grain-full-metal-jacket
2,000 rounds is a pretty high round class.
Where are you planning to go for your training?
Put me in the "bring the 9" column.
I have only heard good things about FM(no personal experience), but if you're not sure, I'd buy a couple hundred rounds ahead of time and run it through whatever gun you choose to bring, just to make sure and for peace of mind.
I'd also recommend bringing a simple set up for class, like a basic pistol belt of some sort. I typically bring my training belt and a spare holster and mag pouch combo.
All that is right on the money. For my part, I'm now nearly as good at running my M&P9's as my high end 1911's that are triple the cost each, because I don't spend nearly as much money on 45ACP, so the only thing keeping the latter pair on par are tuned 4.5# cheater triggers.
Mauser KAR98K
01-09-15, 15:58
Just a fast reply, I am aiming to do Costa's HE1. Busy day.
Take the gun you have the best chance of learning the most with, ie much easier to shoot a full size compared to a sub. You will be there to learn, not compete against others, but if your like me it sucks to get beat at anything, and you will want to do your best. Often times we learn best from that which we do the worst at though.
As far a FM ammo, I have never shot 2,0000 rounds in a training class, but I shoot a lot of it, mostly 9 and some 45, and I would not worry about taking a bunch to a class and shooting the hell out of it.
Mauser KAR98K
01-10-15, 08:03
Thanks everyone for the replies. I will probably be taking the USP9 as that is the one I'm struggling the most with. Figure if I improve with it from the course, I should do better with other weapon systems. I will stock pile 45 for next year.
I need to get a different belt (I have one from a company I can remember the name of but was highly recommend here). Alas, it is too long so I need to order a shorter one, plus find a magazine pouch that fits the 1.75" width. Since I am going with 9mm, I can get new factory 124gr, which HKs seem to like better.
Should be signing up next week.
Just a fast reply, I am aiming to do Costa's HE1. Busy day.
Awesome. I've taken HET2 twice and HET1 once with him. Great classes. I'd take 2500 rounds if I were you.
Thanks everyone for the replies. I will probably be taking the USP9 as that is the one I'm struggling the most with. Figure if I improve with it from the course, I should do better with other weapon systems. I will stock pile 45 for next year.
I need to get a different belt (I have one from a company I can remember the name of but was highly recommend here). Alas, it is too long so I need to order a shorter one, plus find a magazine pouch that fits the 1.75" width. Since I am going with 9mm, I can get new factory 124gr, which HKs seem to like better.
Should be signing up next week.
Is your USP a V1? Are you going to run in DA/SA or C&L? I ran mine C&L.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d135/Talnz167/Cannons/CC_HET1_2014/P9267565_RAW_zpsf7733934.jpg
Mauser KAR98K
01-10-15, 11:25
V1. Will probably put the 10lb hammer spring in, depending on how the primers are. Enlighten me on what a C&L is.
You are the main reason I'm going to Costa's course, aside his is closer to me. Love your posts with your USP45.
V1. Will probably put the 10lb hammer spring in, depending on how the primers are. Enlighten me on what a C&L is.
You are the main reason I'm going to Costa's course, aside his is closer to me. Love your posts with your USP45.
C&L = Cocked and Locked, aka 1911 esq.
Cool. Enjoy! http://forums.clubrsx.com/images/smilies/beerchug.gif
urbantactic
01-11-15, 14:39
As some have stated, take what you carry or utilize most. I have never taken a class from Mr. Costa, but I would highly recommend taking any handgun class from Mr. Randy Cain with Cumberland Tactics. His fundamentals emphasis approach has changed my shooting in every respect.
Full disclosure - I have not trained with Costa. But several friends have and they come from varied backgrounds (mil, LE, private citizen). They tell me it's a bullet fest. For a first time class I personally think a low round count class is better for most folks. Once a shooter has the fundamentals on lock, they will get more from a class shooting 2k rounds. Lots of instructors can shoot well and give great demos. But one who can teach and diagnose is going to gain the shooter real improvements. I'm not saying Costa can't/doesn't do that. I just don't know that you will be getting the most for your money and time.
As was stated earlier, keep the gear simple and close to what you know and use. I promise there will be "that guy" in the class with thousands of dollars of kit and weapons who can't hit anything but his neighbors' targets. There's at least one in every class.
It's also good that you're starting with handgun. Improving handgun skills will net you an improvement in rifle skills. The reverse however is not true. Bring a spare gun as stuff happens. I saw a BP agent's HK die during a course and he was lucky to be able to borrow another generous student's spare. He did have to drive home unarmed though...
I'll also second the recommendation for Randy Cain. Not sure how close you are to the Tampa area but Randy has a degree in education. He is exceptional at teaching a student how to do something. Others who are exceptional at teaching and diagnosing include Defoor, McNamara, Proctor, Pannone, and Leuba ( F2S). I haven't shot with Lamb, Cain or Pat Rogers but people I know very well and trust 100% have vouched for them. They are all on my list of musts for future training.
Bottom line - go into the class with an open mind and even if they want you to try something you don't think you'll like or use, try it. Take notes and then keep up the practice with what you learn after the class. Defoor improved my concealed draw by making some changes to my technique and I had to reprogram my software with more repititions to make it stick.
Good luck and have fun!
Mauser KAR98K
01-17-15, 21:16
I signed up for Costa's class in April as he is the closest offering what I feel I should learn the most from, plus my schedule and time to prep anso gather materials to take the course.
I will be rethinking of my gear fr the recommendations here and videos Ive viewed of the course. I still will take my heavier range belt, but will also be taking my IWB carry as well with long shirts. (I can never keep shirts tucked when practicing repeated draws from IWB).
This also means I need to get 4 spare p30/VP9 mags as I have a VP9, though it us a Christmas gift to my young niece, who will take full responsibility with it once she moves out on here with a strong sense of responsibility. That will be my back up.
Now it's time to shop ammo. Leaning towards magtech, just don't know what grain.
walker2713
01-18-15, 08:09
In the ammo department, I've had good experiences with FM....the new stuff, haven't tried the "remanufactured."
Also, take a look at sgammo.com....often good prices/service on Blazer, Magtech and Speer Lawman. They're a small family company up in OK, and have been very reliable.
Good luck with your course....we'll be looking forward to a report!!
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