IrishDevil
06-30-08, 20:56
I decided to do a basic comparison of polymer .45's that I was interested in. They are the HK45, M&P 45 w/ thumb safety, and Glock 21SF w/ pic rail. I'm not really looking for a 1911 replacement, just something more "Glock" like. My comparison is based on reliability and shoot-ability. I left all three guns stock from the factory, as I didn't want to put any more money into them than necessary. So I started out with the accessories and got 5 mags total and a holster for each. My tests were basic bullseye shooting and drills I've learned in LAV's classes. This was a very expensive venture for me, the guns, accessories, and 6,250 rds of ammo. It was alot of fun and allowed me to get in alot of drills/training time.(I still suck!)
Ergonomics:
First place here goes to the HK45, barely though, the only reason it beat the M&P is that the Smith created a hot spot on the web of my hand just behind my thumb. This has been confirmed by two friends who shoot the thumb safety model. I will say that it takes upwards of 150 rds for me to notice it. The interchangeable backstraps are the future of handgun grips. I used the small size on both guns, and they fit my hand well. The Glock while blockier, wasn't really that bad, it's much more user friendly than the original 21. The finger grooves on the HK actually work for me, the grooves on the Glock need to go. The M&P with no grooves, is good to go for me. As far as the factory stippling goes they all need help, IMO.
Handling:
I have to say the mag release of the HK has REALLY grown on me. I find it very fast to use the trigger finger to drop the mag, I don't have to alter my grip. The Glock works well also with this method, and the M&P can be altered to do this. I prefer the slide release levers on the HK and M&P, the stock Glock is OK, but a little flat. I'm indifferent on the ambi levers of the HK and M&P, I don't use them. I like forward slide serrations on my guns, the HK and M&P pass, and the Glock needs them. I think Glock should be placing them on all of their guns. The safety levers on the HK and M&P both work well for me. The decock on the HK is a little light in my opinion. As soon as the parts are available, the HK will become a Variant 9, as in no decock.
Triggers:
The best trigger by far is that of the HK. The DA pull is smooth, and the SA pull right on for me. I noticed no change in the trigger as the round count grew. The M&P trigger ties with the Glock, both smoothed out as the round count grew, peaking at about 1K rounds. For me they are both very good service triggers. I really don't see a need for me to have any trigger work done to either. As far as the DA/SA transition of the HK, it's no problem for me as I've been shooting my P30 a good amount lately. The nice thing about the HK is you don't have to worry about the DA, as you can run it locked and cocked.
Accuracy:
1st HK 2nd M&P 3rd Glock
The HK is a very accurate gun and will probably rival some of the custom 1911's out there. I had no issues with the O-ring on the barrel, the gun came with 5 total, 1 installed and 4 spares. I removed it and over the course of 200 rds could discern no change in accuracy. The M&P was a close second, I didn't measure groups, but I'd say it was trailing the HK by 1/2 to 1" in group size. The Glock was certainly 3rd, although with groups averaging 4" at 25 yards, definitely combat accurate.
Reliability:
First and foremost all 3 guns were reliable. Before I started shooting I lubed all 3 guns liberally. The idea was to see how far each gun could go before needing lube again. The lube used was Larue's Machine Gunner's Lube, the best lube is free lube. The HK and Glock both ran without a hitch, no malfunctions, no additional lube needed. The M&P had a couple problems, mostly having to do with 2 magazines that were not feeding right. They seemed to be undersprung as in the last round was not being picked up, just passed over. This happened 17 times between rds 320 and 500. I contacted S&W about this and they shipped me 2 new mags which ran great. It was handled very swiftly as I received the mags 3 days after the call. The M&P experienced a few FTF's also, it would start to feed but get hung up half way into the chamber. I noticed the gun being somewhat "sluggish". This started to occur after 700 rds. I number my mags so I was able to keep track of it and it happened with all of them from round 710 to 790. There were 29 total malf's of this type. This was after I got the 2 new mags. The gun was somewhat dirty, but the main problem seemed to be lube. After applying my standard amount of lube, it ran great again. I lubed it again at round 1440 as it began to get sluggish again, but did not malfunction. It ran after that until the end of the test. All the guns were dry at the end of my testing, each gun saw 2,083 rds. 2K was 230 gr FMJ, brands were CCI Blazer Brass, WWB, and Remington. The other 83 rounds were HP's. As a way to save money, I ran a full 50 rd box of Winchester Personal Defense(white box), then a mixture of Golden Sabre and Hornady TAP for the other 33. I ran the HP's last, the idea having the guns as dirty as possible before testing for HP reliability. All 3 passed without incident. I installed a Streamlight TLR-1 light on all 3 for approximately half of the 2K FMJ and all of the HP's. It didn't seem to affect the guns when installed, it wasn't installed when I had problems with the M&P. I did check the light for function every so often, it held up fine to a total of 3,250 rds.
Final Conclusions:
All 3 did well, accurate and reliable. The M&P seems to be slightly lube sensitive, or at least mine is. I don't see this as a problem as I normally lube my handguns often when shooting extensively. The capacity edge goes to the Glock at 12+1(I download Glock mags by 1 for ease of seating on a forward slide). The Hk and M&P with 10+1, are sufficient in my mind. The M&P mag is certainly stuffed full with 10 rds, the HK will actually hold 11. I have to say that all 3 are quality guns, I have some gripes about each but nothing major. In the end the HK45 is the gun for me, it just works for me. My best way to describe the HK45 is "bomb proof", echoing the words of LAV. I feel the M&P is a good gun, but not up to the level of the HK. The Glock is, well it's a Glock, it works so far, and I like it. I usually obtain copies of my "go-to" guns, I'll be picking up a 2nd HK45 and HK45c. I'm not sure if I'll be parting with the Glock, I may mod it some(sights mainly) and see how it goes. The M&P would be an excellent choice, but mine will be going towards a 2nd HK.
My Criticism:
M&P: While they seem to be reliable, I can't stand the M&P magazines. The new finish is a good step forward, but I don't think they are very high quality. At least when compared to the HK45 mags, which are excellent. I also don't like the construction of the M&P trigger, the joint in the center, seems weak to me. After saying those things I would still recommend the M&P to anyone interested. From what I've gathered on the "errornet" my concerns are unfounded. What I would do if I kept the M&P would be to have it stippled and put some sights on it.
HK: I have to say the quality of the mags is high. While it hasn't proven a problem for me, I can see where the LAV/Bowie mod package for the trigger guard area came from. Depending on your grip and build it could pinch your finger. I have had some problems with the decocker being a little sensitive and decocking the gun while shooting. I plan to solve this for good by converting to a V9 safety only. The mag release seems a little slick to me, they should have used the lever from the HK45c. I'll be doing a light stipple job on the mag release lever. IMO, they should have used the same grip style as the compact, it rocks. The glow in the dark sights that come on the HK SUCK in my opinion. They may be better than nothing, but I'll be buying Heinie's for mine.
Glock: The mags are typical Glock quality, they work. I don't like the finger grooves, they gotta go. The standard Glock grip is slick IMO and needs stippling. Of course, the crap slot filler sights need to be replaced. I'm a firm believer that Glock should be putting forward slide serrations on their guns. A big plus for the Glock is the availability of parts.
If anyone has questions I'll try to answer them the best I can. I know that I didn't do any extreme testing, but hey 6,250 rds of .45 isn't cheap, not to mention everything else. Sorry for not having any pics to go along with this.
Disclaimer: This is an account of my experience with these 3 individual samples. I'm not bashing the M&P, nor am I pushing the Glock or HK. I found the HK to be best for ME, not everyone. My opinions are worthless to anyone other than myself.
Ergonomics:
First place here goes to the HK45, barely though, the only reason it beat the M&P is that the Smith created a hot spot on the web of my hand just behind my thumb. This has been confirmed by two friends who shoot the thumb safety model. I will say that it takes upwards of 150 rds for me to notice it. The interchangeable backstraps are the future of handgun grips. I used the small size on both guns, and they fit my hand well. The Glock while blockier, wasn't really that bad, it's much more user friendly than the original 21. The finger grooves on the HK actually work for me, the grooves on the Glock need to go. The M&P with no grooves, is good to go for me. As far as the factory stippling goes they all need help, IMO.
Handling:
I have to say the mag release of the HK has REALLY grown on me. I find it very fast to use the trigger finger to drop the mag, I don't have to alter my grip. The Glock works well also with this method, and the M&P can be altered to do this. I prefer the slide release levers on the HK and M&P, the stock Glock is OK, but a little flat. I'm indifferent on the ambi levers of the HK and M&P, I don't use them. I like forward slide serrations on my guns, the HK and M&P pass, and the Glock needs them. I think Glock should be placing them on all of their guns. The safety levers on the HK and M&P both work well for me. The decock on the HK is a little light in my opinion. As soon as the parts are available, the HK will become a Variant 9, as in no decock.
Triggers:
The best trigger by far is that of the HK. The DA pull is smooth, and the SA pull right on for me. I noticed no change in the trigger as the round count grew. The M&P trigger ties with the Glock, both smoothed out as the round count grew, peaking at about 1K rounds. For me they are both very good service triggers. I really don't see a need for me to have any trigger work done to either. As far as the DA/SA transition of the HK, it's no problem for me as I've been shooting my P30 a good amount lately. The nice thing about the HK is you don't have to worry about the DA, as you can run it locked and cocked.
Accuracy:
1st HK 2nd M&P 3rd Glock
The HK is a very accurate gun and will probably rival some of the custom 1911's out there. I had no issues with the O-ring on the barrel, the gun came with 5 total, 1 installed and 4 spares. I removed it and over the course of 200 rds could discern no change in accuracy. The M&P was a close second, I didn't measure groups, but I'd say it was trailing the HK by 1/2 to 1" in group size. The Glock was certainly 3rd, although with groups averaging 4" at 25 yards, definitely combat accurate.
Reliability:
First and foremost all 3 guns were reliable. Before I started shooting I lubed all 3 guns liberally. The idea was to see how far each gun could go before needing lube again. The lube used was Larue's Machine Gunner's Lube, the best lube is free lube. The HK and Glock both ran without a hitch, no malfunctions, no additional lube needed. The M&P had a couple problems, mostly having to do with 2 magazines that were not feeding right. They seemed to be undersprung as in the last round was not being picked up, just passed over. This happened 17 times between rds 320 and 500. I contacted S&W about this and they shipped me 2 new mags which ran great. It was handled very swiftly as I received the mags 3 days after the call. The M&P experienced a few FTF's also, it would start to feed but get hung up half way into the chamber. I noticed the gun being somewhat "sluggish". This started to occur after 700 rds. I number my mags so I was able to keep track of it and it happened with all of them from round 710 to 790. There were 29 total malf's of this type. This was after I got the 2 new mags. The gun was somewhat dirty, but the main problem seemed to be lube. After applying my standard amount of lube, it ran great again. I lubed it again at round 1440 as it began to get sluggish again, but did not malfunction. It ran after that until the end of the test. All the guns were dry at the end of my testing, each gun saw 2,083 rds. 2K was 230 gr FMJ, brands were CCI Blazer Brass, WWB, and Remington. The other 83 rounds were HP's. As a way to save money, I ran a full 50 rd box of Winchester Personal Defense(white box), then a mixture of Golden Sabre and Hornady TAP for the other 33. I ran the HP's last, the idea having the guns as dirty as possible before testing for HP reliability. All 3 passed without incident. I installed a Streamlight TLR-1 light on all 3 for approximately half of the 2K FMJ and all of the HP's. It didn't seem to affect the guns when installed, it wasn't installed when I had problems with the M&P. I did check the light for function every so often, it held up fine to a total of 3,250 rds.
Final Conclusions:
All 3 did well, accurate and reliable. The M&P seems to be slightly lube sensitive, or at least mine is. I don't see this as a problem as I normally lube my handguns often when shooting extensively. The capacity edge goes to the Glock at 12+1(I download Glock mags by 1 for ease of seating on a forward slide). The Hk and M&P with 10+1, are sufficient in my mind. The M&P mag is certainly stuffed full with 10 rds, the HK will actually hold 11. I have to say that all 3 are quality guns, I have some gripes about each but nothing major. In the end the HK45 is the gun for me, it just works for me. My best way to describe the HK45 is "bomb proof", echoing the words of LAV. I feel the M&P is a good gun, but not up to the level of the HK. The Glock is, well it's a Glock, it works so far, and I like it. I usually obtain copies of my "go-to" guns, I'll be picking up a 2nd HK45 and HK45c. I'm not sure if I'll be parting with the Glock, I may mod it some(sights mainly) and see how it goes. The M&P would be an excellent choice, but mine will be going towards a 2nd HK.
My Criticism:
M&P: While they seem to be reliable, I can't stand the M&P magazines. The new finish is a good step forward, but I don't think they are very high quality. At least when compared to the HK45 mags, which are excellent. I also don't like the construction of the M&P trigger, the joint in the center, seems weak to me. After saying those things I would still recommend the M&P to anyone interested. From what I've gathered on the "errornet" my concerns are unfounded. What I would do if I kept the M&P would be to have it stippled and put some sights on it.
HK: I have to say the quality of the mags is high. While it hasn't proven a problem for me, I can see where the LAV/Bowie mod package for the trigger guard area came from. Depending on your grip and build it could pinch your finger. I have had some problems with the decocker being a little sensitive and decocking the gun while shooting. I plan to solve this for good by converting to a V9 safety only. The mag release seems a little slick to me, they should have used the lever from the HK45c. I'll be doing a light stipple job on the mag release lever. IMO, they should have used the same grip style as the compact, it rocks. The glow in the dark sights that come on the HK SUCK in my opinion. They may be better than nothing, but I'll be buying Heinie's for mine.
Glock: The mags are typical Glock quality, they work. I don't like the finger grooves, they gotta go. The standard Glock grip is slick IMO and needs stippling. Of course, the crap slot filler sights need to be replaced. I'm a firm believer that Glock should be putting forward slide serrations on their guns. A big plus for the Glock is the availability of parts.
If anyone has questions I'll try to answer them the best I can. I know that I didn't do any extreme testing, but hey 6,250 rds of .45 isn't cheap, not to mention everything else. Sorry for not having any pics to go along with this.
Disclaimer: This is an account of my experience with these 3 individual samples. I'm not bashing the M&P, nor am I pushing the Glock or HK. I found the HK to be best for ME, not everyone. My opinions are worthless to anyone other than myself.