View Full Version : Considering a Stubby Vertical Foregrip
I like how a vertical foregrip makes it easier to brace the buttstock against the shoulder. As far as hand position though, I always preferred a conventional handguard hold to the "tommy gun" hold of the full-length vertical grip. Seemed to give me a better sense of shooting "to" the target. One downside of the conventional hold though, is the rather sharp angle required by the wrist.
I recently noticed some pictures of guys shooting with a stubby foregrip. Looks like it might offer a good compromise, as far as hand position. Only the support fingers go around the grip (like a proper weak-hand position when shooting handgun), and provide plenty of pressure to brace the buttstock. The thumb and index finger straddle the handguard, similar to a conventional hold to keep that "to-the-target" feel. Wrist angle isn't as sharp as with a full-on handguard hold though.
Who here likes or dislikes a stubby foregrip, and why? What brand of stubby are you using?
Pictures welcomed -- thanks.
I've gone to a stubby on all of my guns since I started shooting like this
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/me%20shooting/071216EAGcarbine.jpg
I ran the longer grip when I used to shoot like this
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/EAG%20Tactical/DSC05216Small.jpg
Robb Jensen
07-01-08, 07:39
I like the stubby grip on anything I run a light (which is everything but my 3gun rifle).
I use the stubby grips essentially as a handstop. That way my support hand thumb is always in the right spot to turn on/off the light.
The stubby also allows me to get my hand high on the gun (actually just as one should on a handgun). Higher up and further out allows for more control of the rifle/carbine. More control = less muzzle lift and faster recovery meaning you're able to put more rounds on target is less time.
Here's how I hold my competition gun.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/RobbArea8rifle2.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/RobbArea8rifle3.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbriflestage5.jpg
Here's to how I hold my carbines with stubby grips, on those my middle to pinky finger are on the forward edge of the grip. With the Tangodown panels it's a little hard, with the new Magpul XTMs it's a lot easier as they're about 1/2 as thick.
Similar to how I hold my carbines with stubby grips, on those my middle to pinky finger are on the forward edge of the grip.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip009.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip010.jpg
The next step in this evolution is no vertical grip...;)
The next step in this evolution is no vertical grip...;)
I think that depends on your stance to some degree. If you start to adopt the more bladed stance that is becoming more "en vogue" these days then I could see dropping the grip completely for some people. For those of us that are sticking with a "subgun" stance, or using a combination of both stances, I think the vert grip will stick around.
I think that depends on your stance to some degree. If you start to adopt the more bladed stance that is becoming more "en vogue" these days then I could see dropping the grip completely for some people. For those of us that are sticking with a "subgun" stance, or using a combination of both stances, I think the vert grip will stick around.
I think you're right. Depending on the type of shooting I'm doing I swtich between the two grips/stances and I still have my vertical grip mounted.
My vertical grip is further forward than I used to mount it but I still find use for it...
One nice thing, at least for me, is that with a longer handguard you can keep the vert grip to the rear for a subgun stance and have a clear rail forward for a bladed stance. Works out well for both methods. I do find, however, that the further back my vert grip gets the more I tend to wind up with my hand like it is in the second picture.
Failure2Stop
07-01-08, 10:52
I really like vert grips when you have a bunch of crap stuck to your rails.
I run my VFG exactly like an isosceles pistol grip- index finger contacting the bottom rail, thumb forward. I have a very slight angle in my shoulders when shooting, hips level.
It's what works for me. I didn't personally see any increase in speed/accuracy with my index finger forward, though others have.
Thanks for the interest guys. Gotm4's photo is a good example of what I am picturing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip009.jpg
Seems like the Tango Down item is nearly universally favored. Should I go with that?
Is the compartment still long enough to carry a spare bolt or firing pin, or just enough for a couple of batteries?
The stubby won't fit a bolt. When I changed my 1A gun to the stubby I also added an MIAD and moved the bolt to that location.
Yeah, I too already have a bolt, firing pin, and a couple smaller items in a MIAD, which works fine. Just sniffing out my options. Sounds like the stubby will be getting a couple of back-up batteries.
theJanitor
07-01-08, 11:52
i've always held on the magwell, as it keps my elbows tucked into my torso and allows me to rotate my upper body quicker. it's also allowed me easier mag changes with retention (if the mag is still half full). it gets pretty hot sometimes, though. but since i've gone to a 1x4 optic, i've utilized to stubbie to help stabilize my AR (and help with the sight picture). i can still keep my elbows in so, it's all good.
my dilemma now is, do i put vert grips on ALL my ar's?
oh, and i'm running the larue. good thing about that kit, besides the QR, is the three different length caps. running the full length grip might be useful, even if you hold it like a stubbie. you have the option of different hand positions, you can store things like bolts easier, etc. the only downsides i can imagine of the full grip is the possibility of it blocking you HG from sitting nicely on a rest/barricade and it crowding the magwel during mag changes.
Stubby TD that I cut down from my orginal length TD. Same hold as pictured above. I like it for all the reasons mentioned above. Light activation and driving the gun to the target. I run it out at the end of the rail.
-RD62
I prefer the Bobro Stubby....twist mounts and locks up solid!
In my opinion the LaRue F.U.G. is the best option available on the market by far. Its QD mount makes it easy to mount and dismount, and it locks up tight, which the TangDown does not do on ALL rails. The LaRue F.U.G. aint cheap, but you get what you pay for.
.....i'm running the larue. good thing about that kit, besides the QR, is the three different length caps. running the full length grip might be useful, even if you hold it like a stubbie. you have the option of different hand positions, you can store things like bolts easier, etc. the only downsides i can imagine of the full grip is the possibility of it blocking you HG from sitting nicely on a rest/barricade and it crowding the magwel during mag changes.
In my opinion the LaRue F.U.G. is the best option available on the market by far. Its QD mount makes it easy to mount and dismount, and it locks up tight, which the TangDown does not do on ALL rails. The LaRue F.U.G. aint cheap, but you get what you pay for.
I was unaware that Larue makes a foregrip. Just now took a look. It does appear to be a superlative item. I'll have to think through whether I'll need anything beyond a stubby length though, as well as the QR. It's nearly twice what the TD costs.
TD is going to release a QD version of their VFG soon
ETA for link:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12500
Robb Jensen
07-02-08, 06:16
The next step in this evolution is no vertical grip...;)
With no vertical grip and a 12 o'clock mounted light you could grab the rail too far back AND it'll cause an extreme angle of your wrist.
FWIW the ergonomics on your wrist (w/stubby grip and light) is very similar to your support hand while shooting a pistol if one is shooting a pistol correctly.
it locks up tight,
I have to admit, none of my TD grips "lock up tight", but I still can't figure out why this would be a bad thing. They're not going to fall off, and they don't need to retain zero, so what difference does it make if it has a little wobble?
I have to admit, none of my TD grips "lock up tight", but I still can't figure out why this would be a bad thing. They're not going to fall off, and they don't need to retain zero, so what difference does it make if it has a little wobble?
Anything that I am holding onto to retain my carbine (pistol grip, handguard, or vertical grip) needs to be solid & as tight as possible in my opinion. The standard TangoDown VG's wobble significantly on LMT MRP rails. Enough so that I consider it enough of a distraction when aiming for surgical precision, that I dumped my standard TangoDown VG and replaced it with a Deiter CQD VG a few years back.
Anything that I invest as much time & money into setting-up to fit me perfectly as I invested in my duty carbine, should not have anything on it wobble.
Anything that I am holding onto to retain my carbine (pistol grip, handguard, or vertical grip) needs to be solid & as tight as possible in my opinion. The standard TangoDown VG's wobble significantly on LMT MRP rails. Enough so that I consider it enough of a distraction when aiming for surgical precision, that I dumped my standard TangoDown VG and replaced it with a Deiter CQD VG a few years back.
Anything that I invest as much time & money into setting-up to fit me perfectly as I invested in my duty carbine, should not have anything on it wobble.
I can't say as I've ever noticed it being an issue. Strikes me as being right up there with "my upper and lower fit is no good, they wobble".
If I was building a precision 1/2 MOA gun then I'd be inclined to agree that anything that may cause a little shake should go, but then I wouldn't have a VFG on a setup like that anyway.
I've never had any trouble hitting what I'm aiming at using my "wobbly" VFG, but then maybe it doesn't wobble as much on a Daniel Defense or Larue rail as it does on others. I've never had any reason to own any others.
Failure2Stop
07-02-08, 12:01
I have to admit, none of my TD grips "lock up tight", but I still can't figure out why this would be a bad thing. They're not going to fall off, and they don't need to retain zero, so what difference does it make if it has a little wobble?
All of my TDs have been uber tight, absolutely 0 wobble. I don't think I would have any if they weren't so tight, it really is one of the things I like about the TD over the Knight's (of which I have broken several).
SilentButDeadly
07-02-08, 13:32
+1 for the TangoDown Stubby VFG!
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l53/tgianotti/DSC00736.jpg
Here is a pic from LaRue of there FUG. Its one base grip with three different bottoms so you can configure its length as needed.
http://www.laruetactical.com/pics/FUG/FUG_Thumbnail_6.JPG
Here is a pic of my setup.
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/Foliage_Colt_FUG_2.jpg
toddackerman
07-02-08, 15:41
We talked about how to tighten the TD grip several months ago by placing roll pins of the proper diameter and length between the base an locking bars. This works great, and doesn't alter the grip at all. You can still take it off by pressing the pins out and activating the latches. Highly recommended.
I have gone to no VFG over the last year or so with my light at 9:00 that is actuated by my weak thumb, and forefinger pointing towards the target along the rail. It seems to track better this way, and is the natural way I have always used a long gun. I have shot 1911's with the thumb on thumb method for 30 years, and it doesn't seem to be relevant as to whether or not I assume the same position on my AR with a VFG. Come to think of it...both forefingers are pointing towards the target with my AR grip (even though the trigger finger is bent.) Hmmmmm.?
That being said, I think it's interesting how many of you are using the VFG as a :Back Stop" for your weak hand positioned high on the VFG on to the rail.
Need to try it before I knock it, but I really like running with no rail. Lighter, points netter, no VFG to get in the way of barricades/ supports etc.
All of my TDs have been uber tight, absolutely 0 wobble. I don't think I would have any if they weren't so tight, it really is one of the things I like about the TD over the Knight's (of which I have broken several).
Not a fan of the Knights either. My two TD Stubbies were a pain in the ass to put on- but they are not going anywhere- ZERO movement.
I welcome the new ADM/TD VFG's.
I really like running with no rail. Lighter,
This is actually incorrect depending on the rail you choose and what you choose to hang on it. A DD 7.0 with a Surefire X300 attached will weigh less than a set of M4 handguards with a rail bolted on and the same light.
Who here likes or dislikes a stubby foregrip, and why? What brand of stubby are you using?
Pictures welcomed -- thanks.
I like the new Tango Down with the ADM autolock lever. No tools to play around with, and its rock solid. The Bobro was the original production QD-VFG as far as I know, and its a great option for people who feel the TD model is a little too wide for their hands.
The TD version should be out shortly.
TD/ADM full size
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/American%20Defense%20MFG/IMG_0045%201028%20WEVO.jpg
Bobro shorty
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%20II/IMG_0607%201028%20Stick.jpg
Here's my stubby TangoDown VFG. Allows me to get into a "SBU" prone easily and maintain a stable fire position.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc212/olava1/Noveske/IMG_0883.jpg
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc212/olava1/Noveske/IMG_0884.jpg
Here's my stubby TangoDown VFG. Allows me to get into a "SBU" prone easily and maintain a stable fire position.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc212/olava1/Noveske/IMG_0883.jpg
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc212/olava1/Noveske/IMG_0884.jpg
Uhh.....
What happened to your locking bars on your TD? And what is it mounted to?
I've never seen one like that before.
-RD62
Uhh.....
What happened to your locking bars on your TD? And what is it mounted to?
I've never seen one like that before.
-RD62
It's mounted to a JP Tactical Rail 2" and I have a vertical grip tactile sheath on it for better handling characteristics.
Uhh.....
What happened to your locking bars on your TD? And what is it mounted to?
I've never seen one like that before.
-RD62
I had to take a second look, but it looks like he has some bicycle innertube covering the locking bars & the grip area.
Glad this thread has generated so much interest! :)
Wobble would definitely be an issue for me. Not so much from the super-accurate-sniper-rifle perspective (which mine will never be anyway), but rather more from the any-little-distraction-throws-me-off perspective. I replaced the factory buttstock on my M&P15 with the Magpul CTR for that very reason.
Conversely, it's hard for me to see how QD/QR would be that critical a feature on a VFG. In fact, the latch might even get in the way, considering the high-up grip I'm likely to be using -- an angular and irregularly shaped surface digging into my palm or fingers.
So, I'm pretty much leaning toward going with the standard TD stubby and hope I can get it to lock-up well. Never had a problem on that score with the full-length TD I was once using. toddackerman's idea above of shimming if needed would seem like an adequate fix.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/harv24/T-1005.jpg
I'm a big fan of the Stubby VFG... but because I am such a cheap bastard... I never bought one, so I modified my KAC's to a stubby configuration, until I won a free VFG and Jeff at Tango Down (Who's a great American and an all around Gentlemen) was gracious enough to trade my a full size for a stubby.
It is mounted on my RAS and has zero wobble on it. I put a little bit of bicycle inner tube and Viola... I'm ready to go...
I know the current trend is to take off the VFG and run like the 3 gun guys, but I have and will continue to be a VFG fan. It gives me excellent control and maneuverability and allows for a very natural grip.
if you have a Larue BUIS, it makes a great stubby handstop.
plus, it is quick release and very solid on the rail.
CarlosDJackal
07-06-08, 00:28
The next step in this evolution is no vertical grip...;)
Not if I can help it!! I've broken both of my wrists and using a rifle that does not have a VFG effectively renders me useless (more than normal anyway) after just a couple of minutes.
I use the Larye Tactical FUG in "stubby" configuration.
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