View Full Version : Mentally deranged 20-something new neighbor?
Eurodriver
01-18-15, 09:09
I have a new neighbor who lives behind me. He's the son of a single mom, and he's totally nuts. He just moved in last month.
I could list several instances of crazy, but I think you can get a good idea just from what happened yesterday evening. I was sitting out back with a friend of mine, when we heard lunatic start screaming. Nothing coherent, just "AHHHHHH" repeatedly. Then we heard was looked like a dog's metallic collar jingling, immediately followed by what sounded like a punching bag and a dog whimpering. It was like he was punching the dog, and the dog would whimper.
My buddy looked over the fence and said he saw the guy holding the dog by it's hind legs and punching it in the face. I'm not good with breeds, but it's probably 20lbs? Short hair.
As he called me over to look, I heard a female's voice, probably his mom, start yelling at him to cut that out. He then called her a c*nt, and marched back into his garage and began screaming again.
It was pretty disturbing, to say the least. The dude gets ridiculously angry a few times a week, but I never can tell what for. I just hear him screaming and punching walls and cursing everything.
Is there a course of action I can take about this dude? Despite the fact that he has serial killer tendencies, I also have a dog of my own and I don't need some dude throwing broken glass laced meat over our fence. However, I'm not sure what action an LEO would be able to take especially considering animal abuse is like priority #2163 to both LE and the judicial circuit (if they could even substantiate PC for an arrest) I don't know if I should confront him, as it would be hard to communicate with him given the 6ft solid fence and you know...his insanity.
Mom seems to be an enabler as well, so he'd probably get bonded out and then I'd really have an issue.
Averageman
01-18-15, 09:19
Great neighbors.
If he hits the dog I would call the cops, if they are renting and he is punching holes in the walls, I would call the land lord.
I wouldn't confront him, I would just call the PoPo everytime he is acting an ass and let someone else deal with it.
Film him hurting the dog. Turn it over to the SPCA and the PD. They'll save the dog. You can always try the Health and Welfare check calls to PD when he is screaming...let the landlord know too. If he's a druggie, the landlord may boot him for fear of losing his property.
While I understand your concern for your own dog, I would have verbally confronted dude the second I saw the dog being abused (can't stand that sort of thing). Dealing with people like that will always be a crap shoot on how they will react. However, I think you already know the right thing to do - and thus, you're well thought out questions. It is not always easy to process such things when in the midst of insanity.
Afraid to say whether you do the right thing over the dog abuse or wait it out - you will in all likelihood have some confrontation in the future. I would think it best to begin the LE contact paper trial in the event things really get out of hand and you need to defend yourself or others (especially since you carry). Hope it all goes well for you.
EDIT to add - great advice above on filming future abuse and events.
First, calculate the risk:benefit of not minding your own business. If you proceed, record audio and video, keep logs and document. Refer accumulated information to LE, animal control/protection, and property management. Keep your expectations low.
Eurodriver
01-18-15, 10:01
Sorry I should have clarified. The mom purchased the house, and he lives with her.
He is not renting. Just living with mom.
ramairthree
01-18-15, 10:12
Yeah, the 20 and 30 somethings that move back in with mom or the grandparents are always such winners.
Film and notify authorities.
Repeat.
I would not risk getting hurt or hurting someone else over their dog on their property.
After several months of strange and violent behavior and multiple police calls to his home,
the will rush the cops with an iron bar in one hand and a knife in the other while screaming and they will get hosed in the media for their brutality when they shoot him.
Sorry I should have clarified. The mom purchased the house, and he lives with her.
He is not renting. Just living with mom.
Then keep your expectations very low.
Eurodriver
01-18-15, 10:33
That is what I was afraid of.
I am not one to want beefs with neighbors, especially nutcases as you are never quite sure what they are capable of.
The problem with video tapes are:
The fence - I installed this specifically to distance myself from this dude when they moved in. As such it is 6ft high and there are no gaps or anyplace I could really video tape anything without putting my phone over the fence.
Is recording someone else in their yard over a privacy fence legal? (Even though it is my fence) I'd hate to get a peeping Tom charge.
Personally, while I think him beating a dog is sick, I'm not willing to risk a feud to stop it. I just want to know what to do as I'm certain in the future there will be a confrontation.
Why are you certain there will be a confrontation? I have lived in my house for 4 years and never spoken to the neighbor behind me. They're not crazy, but is there any reason you couldn't just ignore him or call the cops? No need for you to personally confront him unless he's on or damaging your property, and it sounds like you have that covered with the new fence.
Eurodriver
01-18-15, 10:50
Before I put my fence up I saw him yelling at my dog, inciting my dog to bark and then saying things like "I'll kill you. Keep barking"
Now, occasionally when my dog parks, (and I always immediately bring my dog inside when she begins barking so not to annoy anyone) I will hear him loudly going "UGHHHHHH I CANT STAND THIS ****ING NOISE!!!! ****ING DOGS!!!!"
I mean, it's just not normal to do that if a dog has barked three times. And I really want to clarify that I never ever let my dog sit outside and bark. If she is barking, I bring her in. Every time, and now I'm even more careful about it.
I'm just not sure that eventually I won't be outside while I hear him having a tantrum and call him out on it.
Don Robison
01-18-15, 11:03
Video it and turn it in, especially if you get it more than once. Repeatedly causing an animal unnecessary pain and suffering is a third degree felony in Florida. I know up here they are taking animal cruelty serious. They just prosecuted an 18 year old girl who was kicking ducks in the park and have done the same to several psychos hurting dogs and cats. These morons are only one bad day away from killing a person.
I hate to say this, but grow eyes in the back of your head....
Maybe go talk to the mom while the kid is not home? At the least, you may find out that he's got a history, on (or off) meds, guns in the house, etc...?
Call the SPCA and inform them of what is going on. Every time you hear him having an "episode" call LEO and make sure that you state on the phone that you have seen his violent out bursts and you ear for the safety of those in your house. EVERY TIME. You also want to Adult Protective Services. If he is deemed incompetent they will most definitely step in. To the point that if he is off his meds and the mother can't care for him they will take him away for his own safety.
Do not go and take to her, just keep documenting it. It will protect you.
I see. When dealing with people like this, it's important to be as calm as you can be, but take adequate documented actions. What others said about videotaping is good, unless it initiates a confrontation. If he is yelling at your dog, bring your dog in and ask him to not yell at your dog. If at anytime he threatens your dog or you, call the police. They will take it seriously if there is a threat. If you call on him for yelling on his property and they show up and it has stopped they most likely wont do anything. And if they get calls all the time and nothing is happening when they show up, they could start to be on his side. Like he has a crazy neighbor with a vendetta against him or something. Crazy people can act REALLY sane around authorities.
ETA:
If its possible and someone is at your house when he is out there yelling at your dog, have them videotape you going out there to confront him. They can stay out of sight as to not get too involved. He need not be in view, as long as you can hear him if he makes a threat towards you or your property.
Is recording someone else in their yard over a privacy fence legal? (Even though it is my fence) I'd hate to get a peeping Tom charge.
I had a similar situation with an unbalanced neighbor a while back before we moved onto the boat full-time.
I installed cameras everywhere and then found out that they are so-so legal.
The backyard cameras could not capture Anyone else's backyard property. However, the front door cameras that were pointed down the street as well as directly in front were legal, even though they captured the neighbors door and front lawn property. Apparently because they faced the street it was considered public/private and they were except from reasonable privacy expectations while the backyards were not.
In either case, while the neighbor and I did not have a confrontation, it did remind me of something I learned from my mother... "You can't argue with crazy.".
Averageman
01-18-15, 13:57
I have to agree with the above, I would tape every bit of this you see and keep it for the LEO's who respond to your call.
I'm sure Mom has to go to work and I'm also sure this is when the little turd really goes wild. Tape it and turn it over. If he's actually beating the dog and screaming at Mom out in the open, chances are he's kicking her ass too.
Confronting this guy, who is obviously nuttier than a squirrel turd accomplishes nothing. Detailed tapes of this behaivor does. If LEO's do nothing take it to the next meeting of the town counsel.
I would definatly either report it as often as it happens or just get up and move.
Sorry I should have clarified. The mom purchased the house, and he lives with her.
He is not renting. Just living with mom.
He is never going to stop being problematic. The question is how soon and how often his problems will impact you and your property. Will you be woken up by his incoherent screaming at night? Will he piss on your fence, break out your windows because he is bored?
If he is going to pick up a dog and punch it, his possible conduct is pretty wide open. This includes breaking into your home while you are at work, messing with your car at night, etc.
Most Florida PDs have a specific animal abuse department. You want to just start calling him in for EVERYTHING, get cell phone video of actual crimes if possible and be ready to deal with a violently confrontational person with severe mental problems if necessary.
This one isn't going to go away by itself, he won't improve. Logistically you are too close to not be impacted. If this guy lived three houses down you could probably ignore it. Next door, no way he isn't going to be a problem. Might as well start dealing with it.
The good news is he might have a shitload of priors and it may only take two or three more instances to have him go "bye bye."
Eurodriver
01-18-15, 14:32
I looked them up on the court records docket.
Mom got divorced a few years ago, house foreclosed on. She is actually the Vice President at the company my girl works at (according to LinkedIn), which is a very respected company. I have met her, the day she moved in and she seems nice and normal but I can totally see her as Adam Lanzas mom. "He's just being a boy!"
Son has a few traffic violations like evading and eluding, driving while suspended, and driving without insurance. He is 21
Eurodriver
01-18-15, 15:12
I got the dog crying on video, but he wasn't screaming.
Still, you can tell that it isn't normal barking and he was most likely doing something again.
I looked them up on the court records docket.
Mom got divorced a few years ago, house foreclosed on. She is actually the Vice President at the company my girl works at (according to LinkedIn), which is a very respected company. I have met her, the day she moved in and she seems nice and normal but I can totally see her as Adam Lanzas mom. "He's just being a boy!"
Son has a few traffic violations like evading and eluding, driving while suspended, and driving without insurance. He is 21
You won't actually accomplish much, but might as well take the offensive.
Don't waste time with the kid. Talk directly to Mom, tell her in no uncertain terms that if you SEE the dog being abused AGAIN you will absolutely call the police. Do not let her slant things in the least, make sure you get across to her that you 100% witnessed her son engaging in animal abuse and that this is not a discussion but a first and last warning. It's up to you if you want to bluff and claim you have recorded cell phone evidence.
This is 50/50 at best. If you stand your ground hard and don't come across as somebody the son thinks he can screw with, you just might nip this and a bunch of other crap in the bud. After that I would have zero contact as much as possible. Every time they do something wrong, just call it in.
You probably won't be able to get away with the whole "mind your own business thing." Somebody will eventually call them in and they will probably guess it's you so you might as well take the initiative.
I seriously hope the mother doesn't know your gf works for her.
Shitty problematic neighbors really suck. I've done this drill a few times. The lower your threshold of shit you are willing to put up with, the worse it will be. Willing to be that right now this kid has a mindset something along the lines of "I live in MY house" and he believes he has a right to do anything on that property he likes.
Good luck.
I got the dog crying on video, but he wasn't screaming.
Still, you can tell that it isn't normal barking and he was most likely doing something again.
Might want to wait until you have some serious video evidence of abuse before doing anything. Video of him actually breaking the law would be very, very useful. Might be worth a $20 webcam that you can set up concealed on your side of the fence that records everything on their side of the fence.
Then you can simply edit clips of animal abuse and other crimes, copy them to your phone and the presumption over everyone involved will be that it is all cell phone video that you just happened to capture.
He is never going to stop being problematic. The question is how soon and how often his problems will impact you and your property. Will you be woken up by his incoherent screaming at night? Will he piss on your fence, break out your windows because he is bored?
If he is going to pick up a dog and punch it, his possible conduct is pretty wide open. This includes breaking into your home while you are at work, messing with your car at night, etc.
Most Florida PDs have a specific animal abuse department. You want to just start calling him in for EVERYTHING, get cell phone video of actual crimes if possible and be ready to deal with a violently confrontational person with severe mental problems if necessary.
This one isn't going to go away by itself, he won't improve. Logistically you are too close to not be impacted. If this guy lived three houses down you could probably ignore it. Next door, no way he isn't going to be a problem. Might as well start dealing with it.
The good news is he might have a shitload of priors and it may only take two or three more instances to have him go "bye bye."
My take also....for sure go by the book for your own protection, more neighbors in your "camp" will only help. Best of luck.
If you talk to her about this you a F#$%ed for the future. You will set yourself up for failure. I say this because if things go way South on you in this situation you have just created motive. She can take it as a "threat" and you are now the bad guy. Think about worse case, and work from that.
Call all the agencies and let them document it all and take care of it.
My take also....for sure go by the book for your own protection, more neighbors in your "camp" will only help. Best of luck.
This is another thing to consider. After a short time he might have impacted every single neighbor. A collective effort will be far more useful than one guy. Also helps determine who the bad guy really is.
If you talk to her about this you a F#$%ed for the future. You will set yourself up for failure. I say this because if things go way South on you in this situation you have just created motive. She can take it as a "threat" and you are now the bad guy. Think about worse case, and work from that.
Call all the agencies and let them document it all and take care of it.
Yep, it's a huge risk. Generally making contact and trying to fix it is pointless. She knows what the problem is and clearly isn't willing to do what is necessary to correct it. Anyone trying to make her do her damn job as a parent will actually be viewed as "a problem" in her eyes and will become a "target of focus" for her loser kid.
Like I said, it's 50/50 at best. In my experience it's a waste of time and better to start collecting evidence and or taking steps to discourage them quietly. But I've seen it work for others.
The big problem is she has bought the house. When I had problems with the house next door and the succession of losers who inhabited it they were all renters. So that means I just had to make things uncomfortable enough for them to leave. That's actually pretty easy.
Trying to get a problem neighbor who isn't going anywhere to stop being a problem is a LOT harder. This kid might just live there another 10 years, doesn't sound like the type to get a job, get his own place, etc.
Outlander Systems
01-18-15, 16:56
Document. Document.
Document some more.
Write a log/running journal of events witnessed. Date them. Call cops when you witness another incident. Put that in the journal. Date it.
I would strongly advise against confronting them. Let the authorities handle it.
PatrioticDisorder
01-18-15, 19:13
I have a new neighbor who lives behind me. He's the son of a single mom, and he's totally nuts. He just moved in last month.
I could list several instances of crazy, but I think you can get a good idea just from what happened yesterday evening. I was sitting out back with a friend of mine, when we heard lunatic start screaming. Nothing coherent, just "AHHHHHH" repeatedly. Then we heard was looked like a dog's metallic collar jingling, immediately followed by what sounded like a punching bag and a dog whimpering. It was like he was punching the dog, and the dog would whimper.
My buddy looked over the fence and said he saw the guy holding the dog by it's hind legs and punching it in the face. I'm not good with breeds, but it's probably 20lbs? Short hair.
As he called me over to look, I heard a female's voice, probably his mom, start yelling at him to cut that out. He then called her a c*nt, and marched back into his garage and began screaming again.
It was pretty disturbing, to say the least. The dude gets ridiculously angry a few times a week, but I never can tell what for. I just hear him screaming and punching walls and cursing everything.
Is there a course of action I can take about this dude? Despite the fact that he has serial killer tendencies, I also have a dog of my own and I don't need some dude throwing broken glass laced meat over our fence. However, I'm not sure what action an LEO would be able to take especially considering animal abuse is like priority #2163 to both LE and the judicial circuit (if they could even substantiate PC for an arrest) I don't know if I should confront him, as it would be hard to communicate with him given the 6ft solid fence and you know...his insanity.
Mom seems to be an enabler as well, so he'd probably get bonded out and then I'd really have an issue.
LEO could Baker Act his ass at a minimum, sounds like a danger to others and perhaps himself.
If you talk to her about this you a F#$%ed for the future. You will set yourself up for failure. I say this because if things go way South on you in this situation you have just created motive. She can take it as a "threat" and you are now the bad guy. Think about worse case, and work from that.
Call all the agencies and let them document it all and take care of it.
I think this is the best course. Once you complain to the mother or confront her directly, they will hold you responsible for any sanctions or fines or any times the police show up. Right now the son doesn't know you exist except as someone who lives behind him. It's best to keep it that way as long as you can.
I wouldn't waste your time talking to the mother, then when you have to call the police they will definitely know it was you and even if she's nice she's obviously not able to do anything with him.
I don't know where you live, but especially if your local police department is on the smaller side (say, less then 100 guys) I would go to the police station on a day shift and ask to speak with someone about the situation. I work for a job of about 35 guys and we deal with situations like this fairly often. Unfortunately there is often little we can do to really fix the problem, but going in, in person, will let them see who you are and let them interact with you for a little while to see that you're not a lunatic or a pain in the ass, but a respectable homeowner who is concerned about a legitimately crazy neighbor. This can't be done on the phone and in a smaller department word will get around about who you are and what you're about and who he is.
Lay out your concerns about the random screaming, the yelling at his mother and the animal abuse and ask them for their advice on how to proceed. Dress nicely and if there is a natural time to work in your prior military service (if I recall from other posts you are) do it. Something along the lines of, "I spent x time in x branch and I've dealt with some weird things, but there is something really wrong with this guy" would suffice. Not that the extra stuff about you really should matter, but honestly, in the mind of whoever is going to take your complaint its going to add to your credibility and indicate to them that you're probably not an oversensitive whiner. I wouldn't mention the checking into them from court records, but I would ask if it would be helpful to try to record any incidents, especially of animal abuse.
After that, if you see him beating the dog or if you hear screaming and banging in the home where you can't see those are totally legit reasons to call the police and while they may not be able to do anything right away, he may act totally crazy and maybe they'll be able to or maybe they'll catch the mother when she's at the end of her rope for the day and she'll give them the info they need to do something about it.
Voodoo_Man
01-19-15, 06:11
Document. Document.
Document some more.
Write a log/running journal of events witnessed. Date them. Call cops when you witness another incident. Put that in the journal. Date it.
I would strongly advise against confronting them. Let the authorities handle it.
Pretty much this.
You have to document as much as possible have as much paperwork (with report numbers) as possible and when he does something that you can take action on then you can bring it all in as evidence which will help a lot.
Eurodriver
01-19-15, 07:06
After reading all of the replies, I think I've got my course of action down.
I can't really see myself going on stake-outs to "nail" this guy, so I will record things as they inconvenience me or as I'm available. Whoever posted that he doesn't know I exist right now is correct. I want to keep it that way. The way our properties are laid out, there are 5 other houses that are equidistant from his antics as I am.
I wish there was more I could do to help that dog.
It really is a damn shame that people can no longer work this stuff out without feeling they don't dare put the police or attorneys into the middle of it at the start. I guess that's the world we live in now.
I still think a nice, polite conversation with the mother (if you feel you need to protect yourself, record it) is a reasonable first step. Going in and talking the the police about "I don't know what to do and need your advice" seems solid also.
Intelligence is your ally, I would chat the mother up and become friendly with her to try to better understand what is going on with her son.
Don't mention her son, let her bring it up, she's likely desperate to talk to someone about her troubles, especially a man.
Intelligence takes time and investment that you may or may not be willing to put the effort into obtaining. After you better understand what is going on you can make better decisions about next steps.
You might be surprised by what you learn. That is how I would handle this situation.
Agree with steyr and hk, you need more Intel to make decisions.
That sucks euro, having someone that mentality effed moving in next door.
After reading all of the replies, I think I've got my course of action down.
I can't really see myself going on stake-outs to "nail" this guy, so I will record things as they inconvenience me or as I'm available. Whoever posted that he doesn't know I exist right now is correct. I want to keep it that way. The way our properties are laid out, there are 5 other houses that are equidistant from his antics as I am.
I wish there was more I could do to help that dog.
You can get a wireless webcam for about $20 that you can hide on your property. You probably want to know what's developing while you aren't home anyway.
I have not read through all the replies so it may have been mentioned. But you could obtain several videos of him beating the dog if it is a regular occurrence. Then if your local agencies have a text a-tip send it in with his address. Maybe if you are lucky he is to dumb to tell it was you when he sees the video during the discovery. Maybe you will get luck and him and his mom will fight and he will get taken to the pokey. Here you can call 911 and not leave contact info so LE can respond and they will not know who called. His mom may then eventually get tired and evict him. Or if you are lucky he plays dumb with LE and goes to the pokey for that.
He sounds like a d-bag.
TriviaMonster
01-19-15, 15:35
Send the video to the local news. They eat that stuff up. It's happened a few times in my area lately and those guys get death threats and cops real quick.
Send the video to the local news. They eat that stuff up. It's happened a few times in my area lately and those guys get death threats and cops real quick.
This! But take the video from the street on their side or somewhere other than your yard if possible. That way they wont know it was you.
I didn't read any of the other replies, but I would call the police and report exactly what's happening (i.e. disturbing the peace).
First, calculate the risk:benefit of not minding your own business. If you proceed, record audio and video, keep logs and document. Refer accumulated information to LE, animal control/protection, and property management. Keep your expectations low.
Best advice. Mind your own business until their actions directly affect your family or property. Neighbor feuds never end well.
Am I perhaps the only person who has yet posted in this thread who believes a conversation is the only ethical first step in situations like this? I would go talk to both of them.
I've lived in many places, in many neighborhoods, as I've traveled across the socioeconomic spectrum. I've always found people to be receptive when you complain in a diplomatic way. People seem irrational to you from your vantage point, but unless someone is truly insane (I have not yet encountered), people generally want to get along and not have quarrels with their neighbors. Everything from dogs barking, to cats shitting in my wife's flowers, to reckless driving in a neighborhood full of children on bikes and skateboards, to late night loud parties. I've knocked on doors for all of these issues, and I can't think of a single time it's ever ended badly. It's been completely ineffective a time or two (cats and their shit, for instance), but has never resulted in any kind of escalation, and it's been effective more often than not.
It's all in your presentation. Coming at someone when you're not mad is the first step; so if what they're doing pisses you off, wait until you've had a cocktail and taken some deep breaths before you go over. Secondly, you don't even have to make any demands or ultimatums; simply pointing out that they're doing something that's annoying you is more than enough to change behavior, for the vast majority of people.
This is basic human interaction shit. I'm a little surprised to see some of the suggestions here, where I would expect a more assertive/proactive attitude about such things.
Talk to the mom, maybe. There is no talking to someone that dangles a dog by its legs and punches it in the face.
Talk to the mom, maybe. There is no talking to someone that dangles a dog by its legs and punches it in the face.
Sure there is. If he knew someone was witnessing his crimes, I bet it would completely change his tune. He's still a kid- it's quite possible he's never been confronted for cowardly shit like that before. He might remain an asshole, but it would likely give him pause the next time. Do you remember the first time you caught someone witnessing you doing some retarded bullshit? I be you remembered it again later.
Heavy Metal
01-19-15, 18:36
If you really want to confront her about the Dog get a friend from out of town to do it for you. Let him pretend to be from your neighborhood. Let him give a false name. It will drive them nuts and this semi-fictious individual will be the focal point for all young Johnny Troubleboy's animus and they will go nuts trying to figure out where he lives in the neighborhood.
Outlander Systems
01-19-15, 18:44
Am I perhaps the only person who has yet posted in this thread who believes a conversation is the only ethical first step in situations like this? I would go talk to both of them.
I've lived in many places, in many neighborhoods, as I've traveled across the socioeconomic spectrum. I've always found people to be receptive when you complain in a diplomatic way. People seem irrational to you from your vantage point, but unless someone is truly insane (I have not yet encountered), people generally want to get along and not have quarrels with their neighbors. Everything from dogs barking, to cats shitting in my wife's flowers, to reckless driving in a neighborhood full of children on bikes and skateboards, to late night loud parties. I've knocked on doors for all of these issues, and I can't think of a single time it's ever ended badly. It's been completely ineffective a time or two (cats and their shit, for instance), but has never resulted in any kind of escalation, and it's been effective more often than not.
It's all in your presentation. Coming at someone when you're not mad is the first step; so if what they're doing pisses you off, wait until you've had a cocktail and taken some deep breaths before you go over. Secondly, you don't even have to make any demands or ultimatums; simply pointing out that they're doing something that's annoying you is more than enough to change behavior, for the vast majority of people.
This is basic human interaction shit. I'm a little surprised to see some of the suggestions here, where I would expect a more assertive/proactive attitude about such things.
Problem is, you can't reason with crazy.
Dude is holding a dog by the hind legs, and using it as a speed bag.
Drunken college kids and rap music is a nuisance. Euro's got Norman Bates living behind him.
Am I perhaps the only person who has yet posted in this thread who believes a conversation is the only ethical first step in situations like this? I would go talk to both of them.
Probably. People who don't know enough to have basic respect for their neighbors, let alone don't know you can't kick the shit out of a dog like a punching bag, certainly aren't going to respond to reasonable interaction with their neighbors.
If they were the kind of people that you could be "reasonable" with, you wouldn't be dealing with these kinds of issues in the first place. It's a lot like asking a group of drug dealers / gang bangers to turn their music down because it's disturbing you. They simply won't even be able to relate to such a request and are as likely to become offended by the request as anything else.
Sure there is. If he knew someone was witnessing his crimes, I bet it would completely change his tune. He's still a kid- it's quite possible he's never been confronted for cowardly shit like that before. He might remain an asshole, but it would likely give him pause the next time. Do you remember the first time you caught someone witnessing you doing some retarded bullshit? I be you remembered it again later.
I bet the only thing that happens is he vandalizes your property when you are at work.
For the record, I've never dangled a dog by it's legs and punched it in the face. I've never even done anything close to that. And if I had, I'd be deserving of everything that came my way. Nobody would have owed me any kind of consideration or courtesy for anything like that.
If somebody came up behind and pillow cased me then kicked me within an inch of my life, I would have had it coming. Calling the cops would have been letting me off easy.
Probably. People who don't know enough to have basic respect for their neighbors, let alone don't know you can't kick the shit out of a dog like a punching bag, certainly aren't going to respond to reasonable interaction with their neighbors.
If they were the kind of people that you could be "reasonable" with, you wouldn't be dealing with these kinds of issues in the first place. It's a lot like asking a group of drug dealers / gang bangers to turn their music down because it's disturbing you. They simply won't even be able to relate to such a request and are as likely to become offended by the request as anything else.
When was the last time you tried? My experience with drug dealers has been that they're just as receptive to diplomacy as anyone. It's not a lasting solution, but I did get a dispassionate "mah bad. Won't happen again," a handshake, and a temporary reprieve, with no repercussions.
Don't assume you know how people think or will react. There could be a very simple solution here - it would be a damn shame to miss it.
There's a chance that the kid has not been diagnosed with a mental illness, and the problem is that he's a spoiled brat who gets his way by throwing tantrums. Thus, his mother has been enabling this behavior since day 1 and is not likely to cease. If so, this nut will be more difficult to crack. I agree that he's crazy. My background says proceed with caution because he can get away with stuff that Euro can't should the kid decide on payback. This idiot has nothing to lose.
When was the last time you tried? My experience with drug dealers has been that they're just as receptive to diplomacy as anyone. It's not a lasting solution, but I did get a dispassionate "mah bad. Won't happen again," a handshake, and a temporary reprieve, with no repercussions.
Don't assume you know how people think or will react. There could be a very simple solution here - it would be a damn shame to miss it.
Nah I wouldn't try talking it out you have no idea how many assault calls get started that way. Then when LE arrive both sides claim to be the victim and if LE has never delt with either side no one wins. I would agree if the kid was 8 but twenty yeah there is no talking he will only assault or vandalize your stuff. He may chill out but the negative outcome out weighs the good from being civil. I hate to say it but people treating people like people has almost past. The " marjority" of people these days are to self absorbed to be considerate of their fellow man. Sorry to be a negative Nancy. And I have no idea what twilight zone you are in where drug dealers are so laid back. I have seen a guy beat his own uncle with a ball peen hammer over a drug debt.
And I have no idea what twilight zone you are in where drug dealers are so laid back. I have seen a guy beat his own uncle with a ball peen hammer over a drug debt.
Why do you make the assumption that because some people of a certain segment can't be reasoned with, that all people of that segment can't? Unreasonable people will always be the minority, of any group or class of people. Most people can be reasoned with, whether they sell used cars, construction finance packages, or narcotics. Obviously the likelihood of an unreasonable person goes up, with the drug dealer; but it's still going to be a minority. Odds are still in favor of favorable outcomes by simply making a good point.
When was the last time you tried? My experience with drug dealers has been that they're just as receptive to diplomacy as anyone. It's not a lasting solution, but I did get a dispassionate "mah bad. Won't happen again," a handshake, and a temporary reprieve, with no repercussions.
Don't assume you know how people think or will react. There could be a very simple solution here - it would be a damn shame to miss it.
After a few dozen times I finally caught on. Apparently the drug dealers in your state are more reasonable than the ones in mine.
And given several of my experiences with attempted diplomacy, I was forced to evaluate risk vs. reward and actions that resulted in positive resolutions. My current "standard plan" for problem neighbors is based upon all of those past experienced and the lessons learned. It's a shame you don't live on the block, I'd be more than happy to let you take a run at it next time I have a problem neighbor. I'd actually prefer a simple solution that doesn't require action from me, but rarely do I get that lucky. Usually it's a lot of freaking work on my part, and I don't do it because it's enjoyable...I do it because I have things to lose.
Why do you make the assumption that because some people of a certain segment can't be reasoned with, that all people of that segment can't? Unreasonable people will always be the minority, of any group or class of people. Most people can be reasoned with, whether they sell used cars, construction finance packages, or narcotics. Obviously the likelihood of an unreasonable person goes up, with the drug dealer; but it's still going to be a minority. Odds are still in favor of favorable outcomes by simply making a good point.
Wanna know how I know you've never lived in District 13, Ft. Lauderdale? Because you are still breathing. Don't know where you live, but my advice is stay there...you have a good thing going.
SeriousStudent
01-19-15, 22:19
The OP says he's decided on his course of action.
This thread is not about social interaction models with unlicensed pharmacists. So let's not take it way off track.
OP - if you need this reopened, hollar.
SeriousStudent
02-03-15, 20:35
Per the OP's request, I am reopening the thread for some new info.
Do keep the thread on-track when you post information to assist the OP. Consider this the only warning before I go Weapons Free on a post, if somebody engages in moar derp.
Eurodriver
02-04-15, 07:28
Before, I was all about letting him be. It sucks, but I had no desire to get involved.
However, the dog that he beats must have separation anxiety or something like that because it whines all day long. I can hear it through his home's closed windows and my closed windows. It is a loud, incessant whining/barking mix that is driving me nuts. I actually have to wear ear plugs to accomplish anything. This has been going on for at least 2 weeks and happens all day while they are not home.
The city's ordnance states this is a PD issue, and to call the non emergency line if/when it occurs. However, their response time to something like this would be no less than 30 minutes to something as long as a few hours if they show up at all.
To those of you suggesting I "talk to the guy". A few nights ago my dog was outside around 7:00pm, and she started barking for all of 10 seconds. I mean, I literally began walking to the back door to let her inside when I heard her start barking. As I opened the door I heard crazy guy moaning and yelling "SOMEONE SHUT THAT ****ING ANIMAL UP", and I lost my cool and said something along the lines of "Hey hotshot, your annoying ass dog barks all day long. How about you settle the **** down and worry about what's happening on your side of the fence before worrying about mine?"
He hopped up over the wooden fence (He must have been standing on something, because he's a short little fat boy) started screaming incoherent expletives, like, shit that didn't even make sense. Like "****. AHH. OMG. WHAT? ****. NO WAY. ****. AHHH" and then said "I'll kill you and your whole family and your dog and EVERYONEEEE" and then ran back inside. Weirdest, craziest, nuttiest experience of my entire life guys. The dude is off his meds.
In hindsight, I should have called LE right then.
So now I have two issues. His dog which obviously only barks when he's not home. The neighbors are all aware of it and I've spoken to a few of them so it's not like LE is going to think I'm making this up, but he obviously has no idea it happens because he's never there. After PD warns him once, the city can fine him $163 for every barking incident that at least 2 independent non-related neighbors over 18 years old swear to on an affidavit.
And the second issue is him, who's a certifiable nutjob and the only thing separating him and I is a 6ft wooden fence. I've got insurance and guns, so I'm not too concerned, but I still don't know what to do.
Unfortunately, I have no witnesses with his little over-the-fence threat.
If someone enters your property, threatening you, how does he leave without a broken nose or a police escort? Police needed to be called after that one. That's a clear threat and should've been documented. Won't complaining about his dog just cause him to beat it more? I would think your best course of action would be to get him on video beating the dog and worry less about getting him fined because his dog is barking.
Video camera with audio set up in the backyard on a long loop record. That way if he comes over your fence again, you have it on camera, and it will keep an eye on your property when YOU are away.
As for his dog, do realize that the minute he gets fined, that dog is dead...
And consider running a hotwire (fence charger) along the top of your side of the fence. It will slow him down the next time he tries to hop the fence.
Eurodriver
02-04-15, 08:02
Sorry, to clarify he did not come over the fence physically.
He just looked over it.
There absolutely would have been a different outcome had he been physically in my yard.
Dude you live next door to cartman.
Not sure if your state will allow it but in NC you can go swear to your own warrants ( misdeanor ), however he will likely be out in no time as I am sure his mom will post his bond. I hate to say it but it may get worse before it gets better. Neighbor disputes are nasty business.
Averageman
02-04-15, 08:42
Report it. I know it's a pain in the behind, you will need the paper trail if this goes even further south than it already has.
I'm wondering with his outbursts and lack of self control being so obvious, how is Mom dealing with this and does she sometimes face the brunt of this physically?
Eurodriver
02-04-15, 08:58
The problem with reporting it at this point is it is he said he said.i know how LE handles these sorts of issues and it seems like a waste of everyone's time at this point.
I have no proof. And once LE talks to this dude all bets are off as to what may happen. Mom is obviously an enabler. She might be just as nuts as he is.
I don't mean this in an instigative manner, but whenever faced with the decision to call LE I think to myself "What would JDub or CGrunt do if they responded? Could he do anything? Would he be pissed at me for calling?"
If the answers are yea, I don't call.
The problem with reporting it at this point is it is he said he said.i know how LE handles these sorts of issues and it seems like a waste of everyone's time at this point.
I have no proof. And once LE talks to this dude all bets are off as to what may happen. Mom is obviously an enabler. She might be just as nuts as he is.
See if the other neighbors you talked to would call in at the same time you do. Several complaints at once will get a better response. Call it some kinda of domestic dispute and tell the dispatch operator what you hear.
Even if the cops do nothing, at least there will be a record of complaints of the situation escalates.
At this point I think the only alert is a camera outside with sound.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Averageman
02-04-15, 10:03
The problem with reporting it at this point is it is he said he said.i know how LE handles these sorts of issues and it seems like a waste of everyone's time at this point.
I have no proof. And once LE talks to this dude all bets are off as to what may happen. Mom is obviously an enabler. She might be just as nuts as he is.
I don't mean this in an instigative manner, but whenever faced with the decision to call LE I think to myself "What would JDub or CGrunt do if they responded? Could he do anything? Would he be pissed at me for calling?"
If the answers are yea, I don't call.
Why not just ask the next local Cop you see?
I don't think it would be a bad idea to explain the situation to one of your local LEO's and explain your concerns. You're not committed to filing a report, just asking a Cop for some friendly advice on how to deal with this.
Probably better to state upfront, "I'm really hesitant to call because I don't want to waste your time or cause any further issues." Gives you a chance to test the water before you commit.
The whole idea if this guy being willing to do a "Kilroy was here" over my back fence is kinda creepy.
Euro, I have been following this thread from time to time and this recent situation has me really worried for you bud. I know you don't want to have hurt this kid/young guy but all indicators to me show this going from 20 to 100 real quick. If it were me I would have to explain what is taking place to the police if not the DA. In this new world of see something say something I would think the DA would take this a little more serious. I would make it very well know to them that any harm that comes to your family or the event you are put into a position lethal force is required will be because of their negligence to act accordingly.
Maybe the DA can issue a court order to have this kid undergo a psych evaluation if enough of your neighbors and yourself get together and make it happen. Someone having to die or suffer serious injury is too late.
Maybe these suggestions are not even an option but with the current state of the situation I see this one going bad and soon.
I pray for you bud.
Murph
Outlander Systems
02-04-15, 10:32
This, exactly.
Dude, get a paper trail going. By any means necessary.
Euro, I have been following this thread from time to time and this recent situation has me really worried for you bud. I know you don't want to have hurt this kid/young guy but all indicators to me show this going from 20 to 100 real quick. If it were me I would have to explain what is taking place to the police if not the DA. In this new world of see something say something I would think the DA would take this a little more serious. I would make it very well know to them that any harm that comes to your family or the event you are put into a position lethal force is required will be because of their negligence to act accordingly.
Maybe the DA can issue a court order to have this kid undergo a psych evaluation if enough of your neighbors and yourself get together and make it happen. Someone having to die or suffer serious injury is too late.
Maybe these suggestions are not even an option but with the current state of the situation I see this one going bad and soon.
I pray for you bud.
Murph
Even if the cops do nothing, at least there will be a record of complaints of the situation escalates.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
^^^^^^^
This is it.
In today's world it does not matter who is right or wrong about anything. It is all about who can play the system the best. Start to play or you are going to wake up and find out that you lost loose big time.
The mother has to know the system. She has probably gone through this before, I am sure she has if he is that nuts. If you go to far and say the wrong thing I am sure she WILL call the police on you and bring up the time your dog was barking loudly and YOU started to cuss at her son who a ask you to quite him down.....you will be the trouble maker.
Crow Hunter
02-04-15, 11:08
Prior to Sandy Hook I probably would have just ignored it and kept out of their business.
Now I would wonder if I was living next to Adam Lanza and his mother?
I honestly don't know what you should do or what I would do in your situation but I would feel absolutely horrible if this d-bag does do something and I knew he was a ticking time bomb and I thought everyone else knew but found out later that no one ever notified people who could do something and either get him help or stop him from doing something.
Most serial killer/sociopaths/psychopaths start out torturing animals.
I definitely wouldn't be without a weapon on me at all times.
Be careful.
This is basic human interaction shit. I'm a little surprised to see some of the suggestions here, where I would expect a more assertive/proactive attitude about such things.
It is, until you're evaluating it as mental/psychiatric issue involved interactions - at which point making any direct personal interaction is just setting yourself up to be in the middle of somebody else's addled off-the-meds shitstorm. It doesn't matter how much the OP gets it right, from what everybody else here can see it's something neither of the other parties are likely to respond positively and sensibly to. "Still a kid" my ass - anybody over the age of 10 who hasn't discovered empathy for animals is somebody I no longer hold an expectation to interact with on any intellectual level.
Use impartial authorities and document what you can without getting really directly involved. I know it would be preferable to just 'handle it', but this sounds like one of things that doesn't get handled, just ends up as a 'play games with stupid people, win stupid prizes' kind of events. Having to watch an innocent animal harmed is already past that line, but since you won't be the one with the authority to to commit that dude to the sort of psychiatric help he will need, start the ball rolling with the police force is the first step in doing that.
WickedWillis
02-04-15, 12:29
Kudos to having an excellent level of restraint. If I would have seen a dude punching a dog in the face like that, I would have curb stomped him. No shit.
...if enough of your neighbors and yourself get together and make it happen.
Murph
This. I had a problem a little over a year ago (have since moved) with a neighbor and noisy dogs. The dogs were obviously neglected, too. I wasn't dealing with a crazy person like you are, but I did have to deal with a non-English speaker (Mexican immigrant, it's San Diego) which made resolving the issue one-on-one/in-person more difficult. It wasn't until I enlisted the help of surrounding neighbors with noise complaints, etc. that the hammer began to fall. If you have some consensus that it's a neighborhood issue and not just a personal one, city authorities will respond. Get neighbors involved and file a joint complaint - that way it's coming from the neighborhood in general and not singling you out as the complainant. I'd also let the neighbors you trust know about this guy's threat to you and your family. That's serious and would compel any reasonable person to act with/join a complaint.
The problem with reporting it at this point is it is he said he said.i know how LE handles these sorts of issues and it seems like a waste of everyone's time at this point.
I have no proof. And once LE talks to this dude all bets are off as to what may happen. Mom is obviously an enabler. She might be just as nuts as he is.
I don't mean this in an instigative manner, but whenever faced with the decision to call LE I think to myself "What would JDub or CGrunt do if they responded? Could he do anything? Would he be pissed at me for calling?"
If the answers are yea, I don't call.
Report the incident, GET A CASE NUMBER. This way it is on record. Just tell the truth, at first you weren't gonna report it but the more you thought about it the more concerned you became.
I'm willing to bet ANYTHING he will try and kill your dog at the first opportunity. You have a real problem.
I'd go in and talk to your local police chief/captain/commander, who ever is in charge. Explain the situation, be polite, and express that you don't wish to be a problem, your just not sure what the hell to do.
You may be very surprised what you'll learn, solve, our they may even have something that you never even though of.
It works, I promise. I've have done this with the sheriff's before. You'd be amazed at how much agency's like to fix problems before they even escalate.
Mental issues are about the worst kind. I can't remember but have you talked to the kids mom?
it wont do anything ? sure its he said you said but its he said HE IS GOING TO KILL YOU !!!!!!
its now on record he has made threats if anything happens at least its there and if it has happened before with him it would come up
what if he does go nuts and kills your dog or you or someone or another pet ? but the reality would then be OK this guy had a history of threatening vs OH he was a great boy never got in trouble before !
The problem with reporting it at this point is it is he said he said.i know how LE handles these sorts of issues and it seems like a waste of everyone's time at this point.
I have no proof. And once LE talks to this dude all bets are off as to what may happen. Mom is obviously an enabler. She might be just as nuts as he is.
I don't mean this in an instigative manner, but whenever faced with the decision to call LE I think to myself "What would JDub or CGrunt do if they responded? Could he do anything? Would he be pissed at me for calling?"
If the answers are yea, I don't call.
I'd go in and talk to your local police chief/captain/commander, who ever is in charge. Explain the situation, be polite, and express that you don't wish to be a problem, your just not sure what the hell to do.
You may be very surprised what you'll learn, solve, our they may even have something that you never even though of.
It works, I promise. I've have done this with the sheriff's before. You'd be amazed at how much agency's like to fix problems before they even escalate.
Mental issues are about the worst kind. I can't remember but have you talked to the kids mom?
I agree with this. They will appreciate your help and may also have intel to share with you. I would highlight the fact he is unstable at best and name drop Lanza.
Best piece of advice I can give you is get a dropcam or samsung smartcam in your backyard that can monitor video and also sound. If things go south and attempted to be thrown back on you, video wins. Hold your temper, get as much intel as you can, create a coalition with your neighbors, and be armed at all times.
Good luck man. I have been there and it SUCKS but I think cbx is right; you can work the LE angle strategically without the kid/mom knowing and let LE know you are there to help.
Eurodriver
02-04-15, 21:16
Does anyone have suggestions on cameras with long storage capacities for video and sound?
dropcam or samsung smartcam
I would buy some type of blue tooth spy camera and wear it whenever you are outside so you can record the guy's words and actions. You need it to be conveniently on you and ready to go in a hands free position that can video your interaction with him.
I am sorry you have to go through this.
I wouldn't waste your time talking to the mother, then when you have to call the police they will definitely know it was you and even if she's nice she's obviously not able to do anything with him.
I don't know where you live, but especially if your local police department is on the smaller side (say, less then 100 guys) I would go to the police station on a day shift and ask to speak with someone about the situation. I work for a job of about 35 guys and we deal with situations like this fairly often. Unfortunately there is often little we can do to really fix the problem, but going in, in person, will let them see who you are and let them interact with you for a little while to see that you're not a lunatic or a pain in the ass, but a respectable homeowner who is concerned about a legitimately crazy neighbor. This can't be done on the phone and in a smaller department word will get around about who you are and what you're about and who he is.
Lay out your concerns about the random screaming, the yelling at his mother and the animal abuse and ask them for their advice on how to proceed. Dress nicely and if there is a natural time to work in your prior military service (if I recall from other posts you are) do it. Something along the lines of, "I spent x time in x branch and I've dealt with some weird things, but there is something really wrong with this guy" would suffice. Not that the extra stuff about you really should matter, but honestly, in the mind of whoever is going to take your complaint its going to add to your credibility and indicate to them that you're probably not an oversensitive whiner. I wouldn't mention the checking into them from court records, but I would ask if it would be helpful to try to record any incidents, especially of animal abuse.
After that, if you see him beating the dog or if you hear screaming and banging in the home where you can't see those are totally legit reasons to call the police and while they may not be able to do anything right away, he may act totally crazy and maybe they'll be able to or maybe they'll catch the mother when she's at the end of her rope for the day and she'll give them the info they need to do something about it.
You could always give this a try. ;) Also, don't ask to speak to the Chief unless he is one of two officers where you live or no one does anything at all to help you. If there is one thing that is going to make the guys who will actually handle the situation think you're a self important cry baby it is circumventing the normal process for making complaints and attempting to go right to the chief without giving them a chance to do their jobs. Inevitably if you do get through to the chief all he will do is relay 1/3 of what you told him to a patrolman and tell him to handle it or he will relay 1/3 to a lieutenant who will relay 1/3 of that to a sergeant who will relay 1/3 of whats left to the patrolman who will handle the complaint.
OP, I feel for you. As I read through the thread I'm thinking of the ways I'm labeling this first call - Threats, Animal Call, Disturbance - Noise, Disturbance - NonViol, Misc Incident/Info. And you need to make that call to PD immediately while the action is in progress.
Then I'm thinking the guy would get ED'd if he flips out while PD is on scene with him.
I'm thinking if he ever comes on your property while you're there how you'll want to request a CTW from the PD you called out there the second you saw him come over.
I'm thinking how you do need to report the verbal threats to the PD. He is already physically abusing the dog, he is already physically damaging property, how long until he snaps off on you?
In short, you need to call the PD so that you can start that History at that location. It doesn't take long before a location is known to have 'one of those'. And there's at least a few in every jurisdiction. On first contact the PD is going to run him and it's possible the guy has warrants. They could take a ride right then. Point is, you put the guy on the PD radar. Chances are things will escalate over at that house. If it isn't you it might be a different neighbor, maybe a young mom who is an easier target for the guy to scare. Who knows, he might lose his marbles while PD is talking to him and they'll take care of it quick, fast and in a hurry right then and there.
But first off, the guy needs to be put on PDs radar.
I wish you luck Euro, a lot of good advice has been given. I lived in Chicago while going to tech school in an apartment, heard a lot of disturbance next door and never did anything about it as far as contacting authorities, until one evening my future wife and I were leaving to go watch a movie to walk out the door and find our neighbor standing there with both wrists slit asking for help. Don't put this off. Get the ball rolling ASAP to do something about it. My wife and I helped save that womans life (the hard unforgettable way) she wanted to end so bad from being beaten all the time, I pray I never have to live that again. It could have been stopped so much sooner.
Glad we moved out of the burbs, I have no neighbors close enough to hear what's going on now. Best of luck, stay safe.
Blinking Dog
02-06-15, 15:10
Story 1: Officer, I'm a quiet guy, law abiding, mind my own business, and this guy across the back fence yells and screams and beats his dog. He has hopped up on my fence and threatened my life and my dog. I'm afraid for my safety.
Story 2: Officer, the gun nut who lives behind me has a long range camera and keeps snapping pictures of my poor mentally challenged young son. He records us and violates our privacy, and I think he has an arsenal in there because he's always carrying a gun. I'm afraid for my and my son's safety.
WickedWillis
02-06-15, 15:41
Story 1: Officer, I'm a quiet guy, law abiding, mind my own business, and this guy across the back fence yells and screams and beats his dog. He has hopped up on my fence and threatened my life and my dog. I'm afraid for my safety.
Story 2: Officer, the gun nut who lives behind me has a long range camera and keeps snapping pictures of my poor mentally challenged young son. He records us and violates our privacy, and I think he has an arsenal in there because he's always carrying a gun. I'm afraid for my and my son's safety.
Very good point of view here.
Story 1: Officer, I'm a quiet guy, law abiding, mind my own business, and this guy across the back fence yells and screams and beats his dog. He has hopped up on my fence and threatened my life and my dog. I'm afraid for my safety.
Story 2: Officer, the gun nut who lives behind me has a long range camera and keeps snapping pictures of my poor mentally challenged young son. He records us and violates our privacy, and I think he has an arsenal in there because he's always carrying a gun. I'm afraid for my and my son's safety.
I think if the officer were to get Story 2, your doing a lot of things wrong.
Jus make the call already. I've lived through this crap a few times and the longer you wait the further they'll push it. Then it gets blurry for the cops. They won't know what to believe and meanwhile the other guy becomes violent and/or passive aggressive (usually both) against you, your property and your dog. Lots of ways to kill a dog and ruin your shit without a shred of proof. Next thing you now you've made your own property off limits to yourself and just stay inside just to keep anything from starting, trapped in your own home. Anything left out, like a vehicle or even lawn furniture magically gets vandalized as soon as you turn your back. It escalates damn far, damn quick over nothing.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
Call the police every time he acts nuts and when the dog barks. They will quickly see he has issues. If he acts the way he did with you I'm sure they will handle it appropriately.
Eurodriver, have you been in contact with the police yet? You really need to start a paper trail on this guy for when he finally does something violent. People with his issues start with pets. Some, not all, move to abusing/assaulting other people.
SeriousStudent
02-08-15, 20:18
The OP has requested that this thread be closed for a bit.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.