View Full Version : 2nd Reload split case
Was looking over the brass I fired today at the range and noticed a piece of brass with powder burns. Upon closer inspection it is split.
I'm Pretty surprised to see this, as this is only the second loading for this particular case. It was loaded with H335 and Hornady soft points and CCI SR primers. It was a LOT of mixed brass reloads, so 1/100 isn't too terrible, but I don't load a ton of RP brass and will be loading less of it from this point forward.
It shot and ejected normally and I noticed nothing at all abnormal when firing the rifle. (HK MR556)
Pictures below, needless to say I'm not at all impressed with this brass. Anyone find this unusual for RP brass?
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s5/v129/p77200423-5.jpg
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v107/p322372491-5.jpg
Very unusual. I've never had that happen shooting over 10k reloads.
.46caliber
01-19-15, 19:28
Where's markm? I think he mentioned RP brass being soft in a recent thread, but on the second loading?
We just got some split necks on FC .223 brass, no annealing, after 4 loads charging to the upper end of .223 pressure.
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RP brass tends to have a slightly thinner case than most other brands. Could have exacerbated a flaw in a bad piece of brass. That said, it looks like case head separation... except for the fact that the split is halfway between the web (where you expect find signs of separation) and the shoulder.
Where's markm? I think he mentioned RP brass being soft in a recent thread, but on the second loading?
RP brass has always been pretty good for me. FC brass is what generally has the thinner web. And in any case, Soft wouldn't be the cause of splitting, Brittle/Work hardened would more likely be the reason.
But split necks just happen every so often. I just toss them and move on.
it is case head separation.
it is not the fault of the brand of brass.
read this thread to understand and fix the problem
www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058
it is case head separation.
Is it? I can't see the pics here at work.
Yep. Since you can't see the pics I'll describe it. Typical lateral line that looks like you cut the case in half with a little torch. Nowhere close to the neck. Usually the break is close where the bolt head and chamber meet but sometimes it's closer to the middle of the case like this one.
That is a very clean break. How hot are you loading these? I've NEVER had this happen.
That is a very clean break. How hot are you loading these? I've NEVER had this happen.
I've had like 3 or 4 of these out of maybe 50k rounds. I think there's just some rare, bad cases... or I've scooped up some brass that someone else bumped the brass too much.
I've never had it happen on a hot load though. It's always been on .223 pressure blaster ammo.
Someone posted a link to a forum with this explanation. It sounds the most plausible when using high quality brass.
Case head separation happens when we fire a case over and over and when it has room in the chamber to stretch. If a rifle has excessive mechanical head space a case can do this on one firing. Another way is if we push the shoulder back way to far and create "artificial" headspace, or excess clearance in the chamber. It adds up to the same thing. The case has too far to stretch and it thins near the case head.
These were 22.8 grains of H335, thanks for the link Taliv, will check it out later tonight. Mag length seating depth and no other obvious signs of pressure.
All cases were individually weighed and filled on my ChargeMaster.
I load 100 cases at a time and after I'm done charging I check the levels with a flashlight at least twice, for uniformity of powder depth, before moving on to seating. I spose I could have missed one but that is not likely and the primer above doesn't show signs of pressure.
I've reloaded a lot of .223 for AR-15's over the years, but I have not had a case rupture like the one in your photo.
When I reloaded .223 for my HK-93, I did have a few rupture like the one in your photo. Fortunately, I did not get any gas blow back to my face, so I just tossed them and moved on.
Case failure is a very good reminder to wear safety glasses when training.
I can see the pic now. Odd place for that case to separate. Mine have all happened much further back.
Tangential question... Are you trimming your brass? That neck looks a little long... but it could just be the pic.
Yes, trimming pretty much to book spec with my Giraud, I never skip that step as it is so simple.
First time I have had this happen as well which is why I'm perplexed.
Does that primer look ok?
Yes, trimming pretty much to book spec with my Giraud, I never skip that step as it is so simple.
First time I have had this happen as well which is why I'm perplexed.
Does that primer look ok?
It looks like there is slight cratering in the primer, but I wouldn't worry about that too much. It's not typically a tell-tale sign of an overpressure situation. I trust head swipes more than primer signs. Unless the primer is flattened/flowing of course.
Maybe I overlooked it, but I didn't notice where you mentioned what bullet you were using? With 22.Xgr of H335, I'm assuming a long heavy bullet like a 77gr. H335 is a little fast for the long, heavy bullets, but you definitely should not be getting these kind of failures.
I'm still betting on the brass being sized too much for your specific chamber and having too much room too expand. Do this a few times, and you will find the weak spot in the brass. Just my opinion.
Primer looks good to me. I agree on the case head and rim being a better gauge of pressure than primer cups.
Maybe I overlooked it, but I didn't notice where you mentioned what bullet you were using? With 22.Xgr of H335, I'm assuming a long heavy bullet like a 77gr. H335 is a little fast for the long, heavy bullets, but you definitely should not be getting these kind of failures.
55gr Hornady Soft Points in this batch. I don't use H335 a ton, but I picked some up when it was about all I could find for this caliber.
Thanks for all the comments and advice. This might have been one of the batches I under sized and resized a while back. Given that it is H335 that sort of fits the timeframe when I bought the new set of Redding dies and was having some trouble getting them adjusted properly. So there is a chance that had something to do with this one. I'd expect more than one if it was a pervasive issue with this set of loads.
55gr Hornady Soft Points in this batch. I don't use H335 a ton, but I picked some up when it was about all I could find for this caliber.
That's a pretty mild load. I think Hodgdon lists ~23.0 as the minimum for 55gr-ers.
That's a pretty mild load. I think Hodgdon lists ~23.0 as the minimum for 55gr-ers.
I derived that load from a Hornady manual that lists 23.4 as max load for that bullet, if memory serves. I've found Hornady manuals to be a bit on the conservative side however.
texasgunhand
01-20-15, 23:56
The speer #14 manual list h335 with a 55 gr bullets...start.24.0..max..26.0.But it says to use a magnum primer with this load.dont know if this helps?
Starting load at 2805 ft/sec..max at 3092 ft/sec....
The speer #14 manual list h335 with a 55 gr bullets...start.24.0..max..26.0.But it says to use a magnum primer with this load.dont know if this helps?
Starting load at 2805 ft/sec..max at 3092 ft/sec....
I have never used a magnum primer to reload .223 and I don't know of anyone locally who does. The only time I have heard of a magnum primer being recommended was for reloads being used in extremely cold temperatures. Was there any reference to that in the Speer reloading manual?
I have never used a magnum primer to reload .223 and I don't know of anyone locally who does. The only time I have heard of a magnum primer being recommended was for reloads being used in extremely cold temperatures. Was there any reference to that in the Speer reloading manual?
Magnum primers can mean different things in Small Rifle. In Wolf Magnums, for example, It just means the thicker cup. They're still a very mild primer (which is good)
Like you said... There's no need for any special primer to run H335. I just grabbed a pound of that nasty stuff for low light SBR flame thrower fun.
texasgunhand
01-21-15, 09:37
No... No reference to cold weather just at the bottom said ( * magnum primer used with this powder) says it for 40 45 50 55 62 70 grain bullets. Also says it for. 748,aa2520 and BL-C(2) powders.Sorry it doesnt say why though. Iam new to reloading just thought i would post the info for you. If theres any thing else i can look up for you i will be happy to help.
As i said this is outa the Speer reloading manual # 14...
H335 is the hardest powder to get started. Wolf Primers will hang fire on that stuff. W748 doesn't have this issue. Something about H335 just makes it a little harder to get burning.
Regular WSR, CCI 400s, etc will light H335 and all the mentioned ball powders fine. I'm sure the Magnum primer suggestion has to do with that.
texasgunhand
01-21-15, 10:18
Mark this is the thought that popped into my mind to,was just scared to post it in case i was wrong. Its the only thing i can think of as to why you would need a magnum primer,to get it going faster..while iam here wouldnt haveing the magnum primer give the round more pressure than a normal primer,say if you put it in a load that didnt require one?
..while iam here wouldnt haveing the magnum primer give the round more pressure than a normal primer,say if you put it in a load that didnt require one?
I've never experienced this, but I've read about it in some pistol loads. We subbed a Large rifle Magnum primer in 308 or 300 Win Mag, and the velocity actually dropped a good 50+ fps.
For .223, published maximums are safe enough to run any kind of primer. I run CCI 450s (magnums) on my blaster ammo without changing anything.
I've never experienced this, but I've read about it in some pistol loads. We subbed a Large rifle Magnum primer in 308 or 300 Win Mag, and the velocity actually dropped a good 50+ fps.
I'm sure it burnt up all the powder before the pressure built up enough to get the same velocity. Same case with the CCI 41/H322 post a few months ago.
I'm sure it burnt up all the powder before the pressure built up enough to get the same velocity. Same case with the CCI 41/H322 post a few months ago.
That one was odd. I'd like to try to recreate it some time.
Whiskey&beer
01-21-15, 13:27
Has anyone seen brass like this?
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag192/DrewC-01/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps5b8687e5.jpg (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/DrewC-01/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps5b8687e5.jpg.html)
Whiskey&beer
01-21-15, 13:55
That I have no idea! I was trimming brass and came across it. With the bucket it came out of, there's no way I've reloaded it more than once, and it's from a range trip last week. I had zero issues, funky fliers, or any strange bangs so I'm absolutely clueless!
I've seen this only twice out of our Ruger Mini14 rifles with factory Remington 223 FMJ 55 grain. I just figured dirty chambers because we weren't cleaning the 42 we had in the armory as often as we should have. One even loaded a new round inside the front half of the shell left in the chamber.
I've seen this only twice out of our Ruger Mini14 rifles with factory Remington 223 FMJ 55 grain. I just figured dirty chambers because we weren't cleaning the 42 we had in the armory as often as we should have. One even loaded a new round inside the front half of the shell left in the chamber.
That's happened to me too. The following round grabbed the front of the separated case and yanked it out.
The best way to prevent this from ever happening is to buy a broken shell extractor. It works Murphy's Law in your favor. ;)
Whiskey&beer
01-21-15, 20:09
Ah interesting! I never would have guessed that.
.46caliber
01-21-15, 20:16
Has anyone seen brass like this?
Was it an old range pick up that mixed in with your fired brass? Exposure to salt or ice melt chemicals at the range and had corroded?
Very strange looking.
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Whiskey&beer
01-21-15, 20:34
It was 1x fired LC-09 brass that I loaded one time. I checked the stamp to make sure it was one of mine. There doesn't appear to be anything inside the case but it's definitely got a good burn on the outside.
.46caliber
01-21-15, 22:59
It was 1x fired LC-09 brass that I loaded one time. I checked the stamp to make sure it was one of mine. There doesn't appear to be anything inside the case but it's definitely got a good burn on the outside.
If that's a burn, it was quite hot. It looks like it was hot enough that the surface at least was liquefying. ~1600-1700° Fahrenheit. If that's not chemical, something got it real hot. Sunny day?
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Whiskey&beer
01-21-15, 23:33
No it was around 50 and wet! Just a weird burn mark. I can't get a pic that would show up on the inside but it doesn't look like there's any mark inside. It was ran through a tumbler so it's pretty shiny in there so I'd imagine I'd be able to see anything funky. I already sized the brass so I have no idea if the case was out of shape after I fired it. It's also kinda crazy it made it as far as it did with me handling it several times through the process.
My $.02 to the OP: that's a bad piece of brass. I don't believe the load is too hot, or bullet seated out too far, or wrong primer, etc. I've only seen that once before firsthand, to a piece of 220 Swift brass that I reloaded way too many times and was running way too hot in an effort to see max. velocity numbers on my chrono. I succeeded in that, although the case fell apart in my hand when I picked it out of the bolt. FWIW, the primer was not cratered at all.......
To have that happen on once- or twice-fired brass is scary....... No way that an old piece got mixed in?
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