Which two and which one first?

[TexanInCali]

Hi all,

This may be a bit of an odd question, but I'm looking to get into handguns, and since M4C served me very well when getting into ARs (ended up with a BCM KMR mid length as my first AR thanks to great advice), I'm hoping to get some guidance on my foray into the pistol world.

Given that I live in California, I can only buy one every 30 days and have a very limited selection due to the California roster of approved handguns ( http://certguns.doj.ca.gov ). Also, as concealed carry up in the air at this time where I live, carry is not a consideration for now. If it becomes possible, I will buy a specific carry gun.

I've done a fair amount of research, and have narrowed my choices down to what I think I'd like as my first two handguns. The main purpose of these guns will be to learn. I’ll be taking a few handgun classes this year. Beyond that, they’ll see mostly range duty and potentially home carry. I prefer my AR as an overall HD weapon, but handgun home carry seems like it might be a good option for waking hours at home.

Basically, I'd like a pretty standard semi-automatic in 9mm and a nice 1911. My budget for the two is around $4k to $5k for both, not including accessories, ammo, etc.

For the “basic” semi-auto, I’m looking at a Sig P226. Of the models still available in California, I’d probably go to with the P226 Extreme. Those G10 grips are ugly, but very comfortable. I’ve shot various P226 over the years and held the Extreme, which fit great. Other options I’m considering are the CZ 75 and H&K USP. Newer options like H&K VP9, Sig 320 are not approved for sale here.

For the 1911, I’m considering a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special or an Ed Brown Special Forces. I’m leaning towards the EB. I’ve shot a variety of cheaper 1911s through the years, but never anything as nice as these.

Am I barking up the right tree with the Sig P226 and the EB Special Forces? I’m drawn to these two models because of the build quality. I realize there are other models/brands in both categories that may be more accurate, or better in some other way, but these two feel good in my hands and while I haven’t shot the two specific models, I’ve liked shooting 1911s and P226s in the past.


The other part of the question is which one of these should I take my first class with? I have limited experience with either or handguns in general. Given the 30 day limit, I’ll probably have time to get both in time for my first class in March, but I’d like some time to get used to the one I’m going to take to the class.

I’ve though that I might want to use the 1911 for the class as I’m most wary of the SA 1911 mechanism and the recommended condition 1 carry. I understand the reasons this is recommended and they make sense, but it still freaks me out a bit and I feel like learning how to use this in a class setting might be easier.

I'd appreciate any guidance. I’m a noob at this and apologize for any stupid questions or assumptions.

Thanks,
T

[MountainRaven]

Random suggestion: Save your money up and buy a Wilson or Nighthawk 1911 in 9mm.

Best of all possible worlds. Or at least what I'd likely do if limited to 10 rounds and wanting a 9mm and a 1911 with a one gun/30 day limit.

Otherwise I'd look at a P220, P225, or H&K P7 - all in 9mm. I don't see a reason to buy something as bulky as a P226 when you're limited to 10 rounds, instead of the 18+1 that a P226 can easily hold.

[Psalms144.1]

That's a tough question for those of us not in CA - I'm not really sure what's "available" for y'all anymore. I'm a BIG fan of the P226 in 9mm - a soft shooting, very accurate pistol with a perfectly workable trigger that only gets better with time. I carried one for work for several years, and, besides the weight, size inefficiency (compared to Glocks) and rust issues, I had no problems. Grips are a moot point - if you don't like the ones on the pistol, replace them. I am also, however, a CZ fanboi, and have always wanted one. I'm assuming from your two choice that concealed carry is a non-starter, in which case the CZ SP01, especially if you can get one "tweaked" from CZ Custom, would be a real contender for me. An advantage of the CZ line is that, while you will have the DA/SA trigger, you can have a manual thumb safety that functions in a fashion similar to your other platform of choice. The Sig's manual of arms is "different" enough from the 1911's that you'll need to think about them when you switch between pistols. I'll also admit that, when I got into LE and started carrying DA/SA Sigs for duty, I grounded my 1911s because I found that I couldn't shoot either of them up to my potential when I switched back and forth. When I got used to the Sig heavy, long DA, I would smash the snot out of the 1911's trigger. When I got "spoiled" by the 1911 trigger, my ability to shoot accurate DA shots with the Sig dropped off.

WRT 1911s, I've also lusted after an Ed Brown for as long as I've been shooting handguns (coming up on 35 years now). I don't think there's any way you would get one and be disappointed, since you've obviously have the scratch to "buy quality, and only cry once." If I won the lotto tomorrow, once I moved the HELL out of NY, an Ed Brown 1911 would be VERY high on my list of "toys" to buy. The Les Baer is no slouch, either, but, to me, compared to the hand-built Brown, it just doesn't compare.

Regards,

Kevin

[teutonicpolymer]

Les Baer Premier II (on roster) or equivalent - I am pretty sure the Thunder Ranch is identical to a LB carry model except it says Thunder Ranch nd costs more

A used S&W pre-internal-lock pre-mim or a Ruger GP100 DA/SA revolver - Check online for guides on how to inspect a revolcer when buying, not all revolvers are equal

Ammo, holsters, sights if needed, magwell for the 1911, bellt(s), mag pouches, speed loaders/moonclips, speed loader pouches/moonclip holders or posts

If I had your budget and still lived in the People's Liberation Republic of California that is what I would get. The Les Baer teaches you how to use an autoloader, like reloading, dealing with malfunctions, and it isn't like you lose capacity. The revolver teaches you trigger discipline, and it is good to know how to use a wheel gun regardless. I notice I do better with autoloaders after doing some wheel gun shooting. Both should be capable of extreme accuracy for a handgun.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Condition 1 with a 1911 that has a good detent for the thumb safety with a good holster and there should be no problem. It is not an issue when you are familiar with the 1911 platform. You can look in CA for a used pistol and have more available to you than what may currently be on the roster. All the 1911's you noted are desirable examples that are nicer than other production guns without the extra attention.

If you like the Sig 226 then go with it.

Depending on what type of class you want to take will determine if the 1911 or the Sig 226 is better for the class.

[YVK]

Use your local resources and talk to resident CA shooters about mags first. A lot of experienced people feel that 10 rounders may be less reliable than full sized ones. Often times 10 rounders are made by neutering full mags vs being purpose built.

If your purpose is to learn, I don't believe having two different systems is beneficial. Kevin has made a point about switching back and forth above. I would consider the priorities, aspirations, pros and cons of each, and choose what resonates the most to you. Sig 226 Extreme and Sig 220, or a pair of 1911s, one 9 mm and one 45. You get similar systems, variability of calibers in case of ammo shortages and purpose build mags at least for 45.

You should take your first class with a 9 mm gun.

[RAM Engineer]

The only 226 on the list I'd take is the MK25 variant. I would probably take a USP or P2000 over that though.

Wilson or Nighthawk over Les Baer any day.

[Mysteryman]

Buy something cheap and/or used and spend the difference on training.

MM

[TexanInCali]

Hi folks,

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I have some follow up. If I ask for clarification, it's not that I don't agree with what you're saying, but that I'd in fact like to hear more.


In particular, a few of you brought up a concern I'd had, which is the significant differences in manual of arms between a 1911 and a Sig or other more recent semi-auto. While this is definitely a concern, I intend to buy both, but focus on one at a time. I've done the same things with rifles. I have an AR and a Mini 14. I spent a year learning and practicing with each exclusively. My plan is to do the same with handguns.

I don't mean to say that after a year I'm anything but slightly less of a noob, but in a year of classes and frequent range time, I get a pretty good idea of what I like and don't like about a gun and where my skills with it need improvement.

I'm just not sure which to learn first. I'm leaning towards starting with the 45. I've always shot other people's 45s better than their 9s. I'm sure this is entirely the result of my total lack of pistol handling skills. Still, I just like the way the metal 45s feel.

The decision to buy both now is primarily driven by the stupid roster. Most of the Sig models fall of the list at the end of 2015. Also, I'm seeing great prices on Sigs, H&Ks and others on my short list right now, so I want to snap one up while the getting's good. Plus, I have the scratch, so let's do it.


As far as the 1911s, I'm leaning hard towards Ed Brown for a few reasons.

Most importantly, they seem to make spectacular guns that run flawlessly from day one. Also, I like the fact that the Cali blued Ed Brows SF is kind of a plain jane looking gun from a distance. Outside of 1911 guys, not too many even know what it is.

While I agree that Wilson Combat is as good or better, everybody and their hi point loving thug cousin know what a Wilson Combat is and that they cost a bunch of money. They're beautiful and attract tons of attention. Once I get my butt back to Texas where I can join a nice private range, I'll get one, but at Cali public ranges, I like to keep a low profile. The KMR got me a lot of unwanted attention at the range when it first came out. I know this is kind of a dumb reason to some folks. Call me paranoid.

[TexanInCali]

The only 226 on the list I'd take is the MK25 variant. I would probably take a USP or P2000 over that though.

Wilson or Nighthawk over Les Baer any day.

A few of my friends have the MK25 and they're great. Besides the anti-corrosion coating, why would you pick the MK25 over the P226 extreme?

More importantly, why do you prefer the USP? In the USP, would you prefer 9mm to 45? I was actually thinking of a USP 45 Elite as maybe a third pistol. I've shot a few USPs in 9mm and 45 and they're very nice.

I want to get a few worthwhile pieces before everything good drops off the roster and would like at least one H&K.

[TexanInCali]

Random suggestion: Save your money up and buy a Wilson or Nighthawk 1911 in 9mm.

Best of all possible worlds. Or at least what I'd likely do if limited to 10 rounds and wanting a 9mm and a 1911 with a one gun/30 day limit.

Otherwise I'd look at a P220, P225, or H&K P7 - all in 9mm. I don't see a reason to buy something as bulky as a P226 when you're limited to 10 rounds, instead of the 18+1 that a P226 can easily hold.

Unfortunately, neither brand has any 9mm 1911s in the roster.

I've tried the P226 and the P229. Never the P220. Besides bulk, is there any reason you prefer it?

Can't find the P7 on the roster.

[TexanInCali]

Les Baer Premier II (on roster) or equivalent - I am pretty sure the Thunder Ranch is identical to a LB carry model except it says Thunder Ranch nd costs more

A used S&W pre-internal-lock pre-mim or a Ruger GP100 DA/SA revolver - Check online for guides on how to inspect a revolcer when buying, not all revolvers are equal



I found a Thunder Ranch for $2100 from a LGS on sale. That seems like a great deal.

A revolver would be nice to get. You're probably right that I'l have to go used on that, so there's no rush.

[TexanInCali]

Condition 1 with a 1911 that has a good detent for the thumb safety with a good holster and there should be no problem. It is not an issue when you are familiar with the 1911 platform. You can look in CA for a used pistol and have more available to you than what may currently be on the roster. All the 1911's you noted are desirable examples that are nicer than other production guns without the extra attention.

If you like the Sig 226 then go with it.

Depending on what type of class you want to take will determine if the 1911 or the Sig 226 is better for the class.

From an engineering standpoint, condition 1 is perfectly sound as you state. I just want to have an instructor show me the proper operation.

I'll be taking a one day Introduction to Tactical Handgun class from a local outfit followed up by a one day intermediate class the next month. These are courses at a local outdoor range by retired LE and military instructors. Beyond that, I'd like to go to a multi-day class at a more training focused facility, but haven't picked a place.

Regardless, I'd like to pick one gun and stick with it almost exclusively for at least a year. For the classes, I'll select one gun and stick with it for all the classes, with the other as a backup.

The driving force behind wanting to buy more than one at the moment is the infamous roster.

[TexanInCali]

Use your local resources and talk to resident CA shooters about mags first. A lot of experienced people feel that 10 rounders may be less reliable than full sized ones. Often times 10 rounders are made by neutering full mags vs being purpose built.

If your purpose is to learn, I don't believe having two different systems is beneficial. Kevin has made a point about switching back and forth above. I would consider the priorities, aspirations, pros and cons of each, and choose what resonates the most to you. Sig 226 Extreme and Sig 220, or a pair of 1911s, one 9 mm and one 45. You get similar systems, variability of calibers in case of ammo shortages and purpose build mags at least for 45.

You should take your first class with a 9 mm gun.


Several friends that own California 10 round US made P226s haven't reported problems. You are right about the design change. It's certainly less than ideal from an engineering standpoint.

Trying to learn two at once would certainly be confusing. The plan is to pick one and stick with it through range time and classes for at least a year. Beyond initial testing to make sure it works, anything else I buy will go in the safe. The need to buy more than one is driven by the roster. Otherwise, I'd just focus on one. It's hard enough to pick one gun, let alone two.

Would you consider the USP 45 a good complement to the P226?

[TexanInCali]

Buy something cheap and/or used and spend the difference on training.

MM

There's a separate budget for training. I'll attend a few local tactical handgun classes, then some good dedicated training facility. I'll try someplace in Texas if possible.

[ruchik]

I live in CA too. I recommend the CZ line of handguns is cost-effective, reliable, and accurate weapons. Thanks to CZ Custom and CGW, you can turn a bog standard CZ into a gun that would give any 1911 a run for its money.

[Ranger325]

Interesting question. I have a Baer TRS and am very happy with it, 2100 sounds a bit high, but I've had mine for a while and prices are probably different in CA. My first 1911 was a Springfield Loaded for under a grand. Never have had an issue with it for many years. I am a relatively 'late adopter' to the 9mm. I suggest you consider at a VP9. After swapping sights, I'm very very pleased with mine; nice trigger, well built and eats everything I put thru it. PPQ may be another suggestion - similar to the VP9 - I have both, but the nod goes to the HK. No experience on a Sig. Hope this helps.

PS I am reading some good things about the CZs too. Mike Pannone recently wrote an article, but I don't remember the gun rag it was in.

[teutonicpolymer]

Cannot get the VP9 in Cali anymore unless someone sells a used one that is already there which is rare.

[Tigereye]

I don't have any experience with the Sigs or any other DA/SA pistols. But, I do have experience with a few 1911's. I have a Baer Custom Carry, Dan Wesson PM7, Dan Wesson CBOB, and Nighthawk Talon. I got the Custom Carry because it had the same features without the logos and the higher price. I can shoot under 2" groups easily at 25 yds so I believe in their 3" at 50 yds guarantee. When it was new, the gun was incredibly tight. It now has about 8 thousand rounds through it and is still tight. I've been very happy with this gun. I shoot the Dan Wesson PM7 in USPSA and IDPA. The only thing I changed on it was the sights and adding a magwell. The CBOB is the gun that my daughters will fight over when I die. Incredibly accurate, easy to carry, and very dependable. The Nighthawk is a very well built gun and rivals Wilson in every way. It's more of a safe queen these days. You'll find lots of good info at 1911forum.com. If you have questions about one of these, I'll be glad to answer. Good luck
BTW, $2,100 is about the msrp for the Thunder Ranch on Baer's website. I got mine years ago from a guy known as "crazy John" on the 1911 forum. Great guy to talk with and reasonable prices. I'm sure you can find his website through the 1911 forum.

[Ranger325]

Cannot get the VP9 in Cali anymore unless someone sells a used one that is already there which is rare.

I stand corrected, didn't know that - thanks.

[teutonicpolymer]

I stand corrected, didn't know that - thanks.

Yeah there used to be a work around to get them there called single shot exemption where the dealer sells it as a single shot pistol with some extended barrel. The buyer was then free to convert it back after. The other "options" are rare and include (I may be wrong) new transplants to CA bringing them in and registering them or law enforcement selling them after purchasing them because they are exempted from the "safe gun" roster. It isan extraordinarily complicated mess which just serves to arbitrarily restrict what gun owners can buy. There is also some crap about microstamping chmabers which makes it even more cost prohibitive (manufacturers had to submit guns and pay money to CA for testing of the roster pistols for CA's safety rules). CA DOJ obviously is unaware that man has developed these things called tools which can alter the microstamp and that one could just buy an aftermarket part. Then again these things are meant to just be barriers to entry for gun makersto reduce availability inside the state and are only meant to help prevent or solve crime at face value.

[RAM Engineer]

A few of my friends have the MK25 and they're great. Besides the anti-corrosion coating, why would you pick the MK25 over the P226 extreme?

More importantly, why do you prefer the USP? In the USP, would you prefer 9mm to 45? I was actually thinking of a USP 45 Elite as maybe a third pistol. I've shot a few USPs in 9mm and 45 and they're very nice.

I want to get a few worthwhile pieces before everything good drops off the roster and would like at least one H&K.

I've had issues with older site I used to have, corroding at the mere mention of rain in the forecast. Any corrosion inhibiting treatment I could get would be worthwhile. Of course this is pre-stainless slides, but it was usually small parts that showed issues first. Also, as far as I know, the MK25 is the ONLY 226 variant that has a properly dimensioned 1913 rail. I have to admit, I'm not familiar with the "Extreme", since it is a product of the "new variant every Friday" mentality.

While I used to be a huge Sig supporter back in the 90's/early 00's, they've had too many ups and downs in quality for me to recommend them over HK. I think newer Sigs are ok, but I KNOW that new or used, any HK you buy will probably last forever. EXCEPT for the grip feeling like a block of wood, I've enjoyed every USP variant I've shot or owned. Stick with oem parts and mags and you'll not go wrong. I like the regular USPs the best due to widest availability of holsters.

[Uni-Vibe]

First: good 1911 in 9mm

2nd: Browning Hi-Power in 9mm



They're the ones to have when things get serious.

[YVK]

I'm just not sure which to learn first. I'm leaning towards starting with the 45. I've always shot other people's 45s better than their 9s. I'm sure this is entirely the result of my total lack of pistol handling skills. Still, I just like the way the metal 45s feel.
.

I'd try to get a bit more introspective with this and understand a meaning to "shoot other people's 45s" better. What's better and why? A lot of folks pick up a 45, print nice slow groups, and call it better. Most of the time it turns out to be a function of good trigger and sight radius, not caliber, because more often than not that 45 turns out to be a 5" 1911.
45 is legitimately harder to shoot, no matter what interwebz experts say. It also can induce more bad habits. Some of the better shooter development programs use .22 for ALL beginners, big strong man included. You're unlikely to pick a wrong gun simply because almost all of them are just fine, irrespective of brand, as long as you stay within the usual suspects group. But you can easily pick a wrong starting caliber and that will screw up your progress. Stick with 9 early on.




Would you consider the USP 45 a good complement to the P226?

Yes, USP is a great gun with a conceptually similar trigger, although I am not sure why not P220.

As I said above, your gun selection is secondary to goals and aspirations.
If you decided today that you'll become the best shooter you can be, buy two samples of the same gun in 9 mm - G17, P226, 1911 - and press on with your training. All of them will support your development if you do your part; the choice is simply a function of how much dedication you have and how versatile you want to be.
If you want to spend some time to figure out your preferences, then it makes sense to buy two guns on the opposite ends of a spectrum - say, 226 and 1911. I'd still make an argument of keeping both the same caliber for fair comparison purposes.
If you just want to have fun and enjoy your guns, buy two with a highest sex appeal and enjoy.

MK25 vs 226: 25 has old, short extractor that a lot of die hard SIG fans consider a better design than current long extractor on 226. Some folks have bought 25 just for that reason alone. Because of a bigger rail, MK25 will have less holster options because that rail does create issues with holster compatibility.

[teutonicpolymer]

I'd try to get a bit more introspective with this and understand a meaning to "shoot other people's 45s" better. What's better and why? A lot of folks pick up a 45, print nice slow groups, and call it better. Most of the time it turns out to be a function of good trigger and sight radius, not caliber, because more often than not that 45 turns out to be a 5" 1911.
45 is legitimately harder to shoot, no matter what interwebz experts say. It also can induce more bad habits. Some of the better shooter development programs use .22 for ALL beginners, big strong man included. You're unlikely to pick a wrong gun simply because almost all of them are just fine, irrespective of brand, as long as you stay within the usual suspects group. But you can easily pick a wrong starting caliber and that will screw up your progress. Stick with 9 early on.



Yes, USP is a great gun with a conceptually similar trigger, although I am not sure why not P220.

As I said above, your gun selection is secondary to goals and aspirations.
If you decided today that you'll become the best shooter you can be, buy two samples of the same gun in 9 mm - G17, P226, 1911 - and press on with your training. All of them will support your development if you do your part; the choice is simply a function of how much dedication you have and how versatile you want to be.
If you want to spend some time to figure out your preferences, then it makes sense to buy two guns on the opposite ends of a spectrum - say, 226 and 1911. I'd still make an argument of keeping both the same caliber for fair comparison purposes.
If you just want to have fun and enjoy your guns, buy two with a highest sex appeal and enjoy.

MK25 vs 226: 25 has old, short extractor that a lot of die hard SIG fans consider a better design than current long extractor on 226. Some folks have bought 25 just for that reason alone. Because of a bigger rail, MK25 will have less holster options because that rail does create issues with holster compatibility.

.45 is not all that much harder to shoot than 9mm, if there is a common caliber that is harder to shoot I would say it is .40 S&W. For new shooters I would say it is hard to go wrong starting them on a .38 special revolver because the recoil is minimal but it is still a centerfire, plus it would be a shame for someone that is seriously interested in learning how to shoot well to not know how to use a wheelgun.

My thought is that starting with a DA/SA platform doesn't make all that much sense if you are new to handguns. Shooting handguns well is hard enough, why complicate it by also constantly having to transition from double action to single action between your first and second shot? If you want to learn trigger control a double action revolver can teach you that better probably. If you are absolutely opposed to the idea of a revolver to compliment semi-autos then I'd say instead get a striker fired DAO gun. At the end of the day there aren't even that many options left on the roster anymore (example: S&W M&P's are gone minus the Shields).

[Mysteryman]

Hi folks,

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I have some follow up. If I ask for clarification, it's not that I don't agree with what you're saying, but that I'd in fact like to hear more.


In particular, a few of you brought up a concern I'd had, which is the significant differences in manual of arms between a 1911 and a Sig or other more recent semi-auto. While this is definitely a concern, I intend to buy both, but focus on one at a time. I've done the same things with rifles. I have an AR and a Mini 14. I spent a year learning and practicing with each exclusively. My plan is to do the same with handguns.

If these are to be defensive firearms first and foremost I see no benefit in learning multiple platforms and/or supporting multiple calibres. The KISS principle has a lot of merit.

I don't mean to say that after a year I'm anything but slightly less of a noob, but in a year of classes and frequent range time, I get a pretty good idea of what I like and don't like about a gun and where my skills with it need improvement.

I'm just not sure which to learn first. I'm leaning towards starting with the 45. I've always shot other people's 45s better than their 9s. I'm sure this is entirely the result of my total lack of pistol handling skills. Still, I just like the way the metal 45s feel.

Again, and I'm not trying to be a d*ck here. The "feel" of a firearm has zero to do with its ability to perform or yours. The "feel" shouldn't even be a consideration when selecting a defensive use firearm. Your better perceived performance with a 1911 over other designs is a result of a heavy gun with a short and light trigger. All of which cover up poor form and give the illusion of being a better shooter than you really are. I'm not a 1911 fan at all and it has nothing to do with brand loyalty/time spent with other guns/trying to be different etc etc. I dislike 1911's as defensive handguns for several logical and practical reasons which I have listed below.

Heavy
Large in size(full size, as it is the most common)
Low capacity
Heavy recoil (45ACP)
Manual safety(not necessary)
Fitted parts as opposed to drop in
Expensive
Most have no light rail
unreliable(its true, 1911's are not as reliable as you think)

Investing more of your budget into training than gear will pay off ten fold. Any quality pistol will do the job regardless of brand(good brands, not Jennings or Hi Point type sh*t) or calibre, its you that makes the shot(s) not the gun. Improving your skills through training will carry over to all firearms and every shot you take. If you're after a fun gun then buy it last and shoot it after focusing on training with your defensive or "go to" gun.

Of the guns you're interested in I would go with the SIG first and shoot the living crap out of it at the range and at as many courses as you can afford to attend. A defensive firearm needs to be reliable, simple to operate and as high capacity as you can practically carry/conceal.

The decision to buy both now is primarily driven by the stupid roster. Most of the Sig models fall of the list at the end of 2015. Also, I'm seeing great prices on Sigs, H&Ks and others on my short list right now, so I want to snap one up while the getting's good. Plus, I have the scratch, so let's do it.


As far as the 1911s, I'm leaning hard towards Ed Brown for a few reasons.

Most importantly, they seem to make spectacular guns that run flawlessly from day one. Also, I like the fact that the Cali blued Ed Brows SF is kind of a plain jane looking gun from a distance. Outside of 1911 guys, not too many even know what it is.

While I agree that Wilson Combat is as good or better, everybody and their hi point loving thug cousin know what a Wilson Combat is and that they cost a bunch of money. They're beautiful and attract tons of attention. Once I get my butt back to Texas where I can join a nice private range, I'll get one, but at Cali public ranges, I like to keep a low profile. The KMR got me a lot of unwanted attention at the range when it first came out. I know this is kind of a dumb reason to some folks. Call me paranoid.


There's a separate budget for training. I'll attend a few local tactical handgun classes, then some good dedicated training facility. I'll try someplace in Texas if possible.

Read above, I'm in the bold.

MM

[MountainRaven]

Unfortunately, neither brand has any 9mm 1911s in the roster.

I've tried the P226 and the P229. Never the P220. Besides bulk, is there any reason you prefer it?

Can't find the P7 on the roster.

Well, a P220 in 9mm is obviously going to be a German-made SiG by default. Same with the P225 (equivalent in size to a P228/229 but skinny).

But other than that, no. Again, it's because of magazine capacity. I love the P226, but see no reason to live with the bulk if I can't utilize it to its fullest. Like having a pick up that is the same size and gets the same gas mileage as a 3/4-ton, but can only haul 1/4-ton.

I doubt you'd find the P7 on The List because it has been several years since H&K manufactured them.

All of these options are pretty definitely going to be used, although SiG does occasionally import overruns on contracts for P220s and P225s for government purchasers that still use the older, single-stack SiGs. I doubt these can be sold in California, although I do see that the P6 is listed, which is the German government designation for the P225. (And now I need to see if I can find a decently priced surplus P6/P225.)

[Trajan]

G19 cut to take G26 mags.

Then ammo and training.

[SkiDevil]

TexanInCali,

For availability of a particular model I would recommend Calguns.net forum. Just about any model handgun is available in California through private party purchase, the only difference is that for some models you will be paying more than if you purchased it in another state.

My suggestion to you is to purchase a reliable and well proven model. I recommended to a co-worker the HK USP series. The biggest reason is because there is little to no parts replacement needed, the guns are very accurate, readily available, and require a minimum of cleaning/ reliable.

I would look at at picking-up a HK USP 45 (full-size) and the USP 9 (standard). These pistols are both well proven and will give years of service. If you have small hands, then check-out the compact models.

With the HK you may be able to fire up to 20,000 rounds with no parts replacement, according to the factory depending on your shooting schedule.

As for the SIG 226, excellent pistol. I own four myself, but have transitioned over to HK for the added durability and lessened maintenance. As I told a friend, if you can shoot an HK D/A pistol, then you will be able to shoot any handgun well.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

TexanInCali,

For availability of a particular model I would recommend Calguns.net forum. Just about any model handgun is available in California through private party purchase, the only difference is that for some models you will be paying more than if you purchased it in another state.



I agree to check there and on the EE here. High end 1911's are not seen as often but they can be found. It may be that what you want is new, but some models not on the list may be found in CA used. It is likely that quality 1911's will be well cared for.

[TexanInCali]

Well, a P220 in 9mm is obviously going to be a German-made SiG by default. Same with the P225 (equivalent in size to a P228/229 but skinny).

But other than that, no. Again, it's because of magazine capacity. I love the P226, but see no reason to live with the bulk if I can't utilize it to its fullest. Like having a pick up that is the same size and gets the same gas mileage as a 3/4-ton, but can only haul 1/4-ton.

I doubt you'd find the P7 on The List because it has been several years since H&K manufactured them.

All of these options are pretty definitely going to be used, although SiG does occasionally import overruns on contracts for P220s and P225s for government purchasers that still use the older, single-stack SiGs. I doubt these can be sold in California, although I do see that the P6 is listed, which is the German government designation for the P225. (And now I need to see if I can find a decently priced surplus P6/P225.)

Sig has a few P220 models that are still on the roster. They say Exeter on the frame, so are these a newer variant of what you're suggesting?

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220-nitron-ca-compliant.aspx

[MountainRaven]

Sig has a few P220 models that are still on the roster. They say Exeter on the frame, so are these a newer variant of what you're suggesting?

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p220-nitron-ca-compliant.aspx

These are going to be 45s, not 9mms. SiG doesn't mass produce any of their older, larger single-stack 9mms any more.

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

I would look into the classic USP 9mm. An indestructible tank and not too different from the SIG. If this was 1998 I would say SIG, but these days I would only trust the HK in the "one gun" department.

[teutonicpolymer]

Am I the only one that thinks the USP ergos are awful? If you want to suggest an HK DA/SA why not a P2000?

[w3453l]

If you are ever in Southern CA; anywhere from San Diego up to north Orange County, then I may be able to PPT an HK P30 to you. It is off roster, and unfortunately I don't have any magazines with it. It is brand new; I got it during the whole rush but I found that I like the P2k better.

The P30 is a 9 mm with Light LEM.

[TexanInCali]

After digesting all the suggestions, I made a few trips to a local range and rented the following.

Les Baer TRS 1911
H&K USP 9 & 45
Sig P226 & P220

After 50 to 100 rounds through each, k confirmed that I really dislike DA/SA setups. In particular, I found the DA on the USPs long and spongy. The Sig wasn't as bad, but not great.

Unfortunately, striker fire options like the P320 and VP9 are not available. I did thoroughly enjoy the SA on the 1911. As I'm used to manual safeties on ARs, I dont find 1911s terribly confusing.

As such, I ended up buying an Ed Brown SF 1911 and a Sig 22LR 1911 CA. The 22 gives me a practice gun that lets me cheaply practice on a 1911 system. These should keep me busy for a good while.

Unfortunately, they're both in California handgun purgatory. The Ed Brown comes out next week and the Sig 30 days later.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm glad you guys talked me out of learning two different systems at once.

ED Brown SF as in this image.
http://www.edbrown.com/images/handguns/CaliforniaModels/index_25-index_12_over.jpg

Sig 22LR 1911 CA
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/1911-22LR-CA-Detail-Hero.jpg