View Full Version : Another video of calm to shots fired in only seconds.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-24-15, 13:25
I am glad the officer was able to respond quickly and kept his head on his shoulders. That could have gone a lot differently. I hate that he had to do it but he didn't have a choice.
http://www.ijreview.com/2015/01/238470-cop-responds-threat-bodycam-shows-quickly-things-can-go-calm-terrible/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_content=conservativedaily&utm_campaign=Crime
http://youtu.be/cDgmjPAsnFA
Ok so we have a suspect that has made past "threats to kill" a female at the wedding (don't know but maybe a protection order is in place???). Pastor calls 911, Officer shows up and confronts the suspect. Suspect resists, runs, drops a pistol during the foot pursuit, stops and picks it up, and is shot.
Entirely different situation than the NJ incident, and a good shoot. You got a suspect that is actively fleeing, IS armed, and shows through his actions that he wants to stay armed...probably for a reason. Officer states at the end that the weapon was POINTED AT HIM. I cant tell due to the shaking of the camera, but that's even more cause for the deadly force used.
It sucks, but the Officer just might have stopped a murder form occurring. Life is about choices. If he would've been detained, and listened to the calm, clear, instructions of the Officer (at the time of detainment), the suspect would be alive.
MountainRaven
01-24-15, 15:23
Huh.
I was just reading about Bass Reeves in this month's NRA publication. Born a slave, became a Deputy US Marshal after the Civil War, and spent the last three years of his life (following his retirement from the Marshals Service) as chief of the Muskogee PD. Had more than a couple OIS under his belt as a Deputy Marshal.
Guy with the tie needs his ass kicked.
Hot Holster
01-24-15, 16:24
Guy with the tie needs his ass kicked.
Most people feel the need to help and don't fully understand it's still an active scene until all the medical needs are taken care of, the evidence is marked, the investigative team conducts their investigation, and the forensic/crime scene photograph and collect all the evidence. Then there the others who just want to be PITA's and get in the way.
Averageman
01-24-15, 18:11
Guy with the tie needs his ass kicked.
He was about three steps away from being arrested.
You know all of these folks who think "Black Lives Matter" really need to take a closer look at who is taking black lives. It isn't the cops that are doing the killing for the most part.
You have to hate to watch this go on and on, but it is a failure of a culture, not a racisim.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-24-15, 18:17
Guy with the tie needs his ass kicked.
I think that was the pastor, who at the end of the video let the other responding officers know that the officer did everything right and pretty much corroborated the story from what I could hear.
Ambulance seemed to be taking its sweet time.....
Wtf did the perp think would happen? Run away. Drop a gun, pick it up???
I don't want to say he deserved it, but he did.
I would say that to me it looked more like a suicide than anything.
Clean shoot for sure. Pastor seemed to really just want to help and just didn't understand what needed to be done. Good for him for seeming to support the officer in the end though.
Good marksmanship too. Not easy to do at that distance and after hustling after the perp.
It seems to me that the suspect had turned and started running again as the last shots were fired. Anyone agree? Or was the guy moving from being hit?
Cant imagine it would be easy to stop shooting and start running again after that.
He grabbed the gun he dropped, started running again and then got shot.
mkmckinley
01-24-15, 22:40
From the body cam it looks like the officer withheld using deadly force until he was confronted with a real threat of deadly force against himself and acted to stop the threat. I'm not sure what the legalities of rendering first aid after that are but the pastor delayed the officers ability to do so by not complying with the officer's orders and endangered everyone by distracting the officer and preventing him from ensuring the scene was safe. The pastor would have been a lot more helpful by simply complying with the officers orders or even helping him keep the rest of the witnesses away from the scene. Everything we're taught about self defense seems to be reinforced by this video: only shoot to stop the threat, ensure the scene is safe. Comply with police orders!
^^^ I agree. The Pastor failing to allow the officer to secure the scene delayed first aid.
yeah id like to see the coroners report on entry and exits... but whatever.. dude was a shit bag and played stupid game...
TriviaMonster
01-24-15, 23:12
Looks clean to me. This isn't far from where I reside. Locals seem satisfied with the end result.
He only picked the gun up to cause harm to someone. Even if he was shot after running again, we've all seen people throw shots over their shoulder or around their side. Could've easily killed a bystander or the officer while running away.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-25-15, 00:22
yeah id like to see the coroners report on entry and exits... but whatever.. dude was a shit bag and played stupid game...
If he has entry wounds to his back? To me, running away armed, especially after stopping for the gun takes care of any issues that might pose.
How far was he from the cop when he was shot? Those body cameras have pretty wide fields of view that make distance difficult to gauge accurately.
The pastor's actions definitely delayed the officer's ability to request EMS, but by seconds not minutes. I would expect the pastor had an adrenaline dump after the shots were fired.
There are no perfect shooting scenes. If bystanders are on scene when you are involved in a critical incident you can expect them to interfere.
Shot in the back while running away = "questionable" in my view. Armed or not, the perp was running like OJ to get away.
I don't know if I would have taken the shot with that car sitting there either. But I am not LE so what do I know..........
He might have saved someone from harm during the ensuing man hunt.
It appears I am in the minority on this one, oh well.
ETA: This is why I don't support the use of body cams. It opens up every action taken by the individual officer to be second guessed without all of the relevant context.
Shot in the back while running away = "questionable" in my view. Armed or not, the perp was running like OJ to get away.
I don't know if I would have taken the shot with that car sitting there either. But I am not LE so what do I know..........
He might have saved someone from harm during the ensuing man hunt.
It appears I am in the minority on this one, oh well.
ETA: This is why I don't support the use of body cams. It opens up every action taken by the individual officer to be second guessed without all of the relevant context.
Here's the deal, you've got a suspect that's made violent threats to a wedding goer. He shows up. Police contact him, he resists and flees on foot. While on foot he drops a weapon. Why would he stop and pick it up????? He wanted to remained armed, that's why. If he didn't pick that gun up, and not armed himself, he would be alive today.
Shot in the back while running away = "questionable" in my view. Armed or not, the perp was running like OJ to get away.
I don't know if I would have taken the shot with that car sitting there either. But I am not LE so what do I know..........
He might have saved someone from harm during the ensuing man hunt.
It appears I am in the minority on this one, oh well.
ETA: This is why I don't support the use of body cams. It opens up every action taken by the individual officer to be second guessed without all of the relevant context.
This video slows down the chase and show that the suspected was pointing the gun at the officer less than a second before the shots were fired...
http://news.yahoo.com/oklahoma-police-release-video-of-cop-fatally-shooting-armed--fleeing-man-172450903.html
Notice the gun in his right hand being aimed across his body toward the officer.
31276
Thankfully the officer was dispatched to prevent anyone from being harmed at the wedding and he wasn't hurt in the pursuit or subsequent OIS. I think the video does a great job of presenting the evidence in a positive light for the officer.
^^^ I agree. The Pastor failing to allow the officer to secure the scene delayed first aid.
Worst part is he was destracting the officer, what if in that spit second the perp rolled over and fired at the officer. Looks like the gun was still in his hand.
The pastor was not wearing a white tie
This video slows down the chase and show that the suspected was pointing the gun at the officer less than a second before the shots were fired...
http://news.yahoo.com/oklahoma-police-release-video-of-cop-fatally-shooting-armed--fleeing-man-172450903.html
Notice the gun in his right hand being aimed across his body toward the officer.
31276
Thanks, that does give a better view. It is amazing the speed at which this stuff happens...... It is much clearer in the slowed down version.
texasgunhand
01-25-15, 22:54
I spent many years doing that job,i didnt see him point the gun in the video but why do you think he stopped to pick it up? He could have kept running. The cop had no cover, made a decision in a split second that will be reviewed for weeks or months. Lets not forget the cop has a right to go home to.
Iam not picking either side here there has been some questionable stuff going on in the law enforcement divisions for many years. I just know what it feels like to be in his shoes at that time. If the guy started to raise his weapon it was a good shoot, if he was still trying to run away it might be questionable.
Once again a decision was made in the blink of an eye,that will be reviewed by many for a lot longer. Theres a reasone he was called there,people were nervous about this guy and he did have a gun. That is clear. I didnt see anybody else there jumping on him trying to stop what ever this guy was planning,thats what cops are there for. Without them you wouldnt even be safe mowing your own front yard.
Cops are forced to deal with people others dont want to. To go into situations most people wouldnt even think of. They feel fear just like everyone else on the planet. To me it looks like he picked up the gun and was gona keep running,but he made the decision to stop and pick it up for a reason,as i said its easy to sit in this chair and watch the video over and over.thats not a luxury the cop had at the time..
Looks good to me, but that is my unlicensed professional opinion. Bad guy with a gun gets popped while running. I wouldn't have given him the chance, either. At the end of my shift I'm trying to go home to my family.
The other officer passed the perps pistol to the ground and the officer that shot him picked it up. I heard a click...was that the hammer being pulled back?
Clean shoot.
To all of you questioning about him possibly being shot in the back, or wherever the entry wounds may have gone... You need to keep in mind that in this officer's mind, he was most likely still engaged. At that point he made the decision and went with the comments he had for the call, suspect ran, dropped a pistol, picks it up, then game on. That's damn good training for the officer to react that quickly, and get rounds on target. We can all sit here and make comments about what you would or would not have done, but if you aren't the one "being engaged" like that officer, then you have no clue unless you've had similar situations.
looks clean in my untrained eyes.
I am most impressed with the officer's ability to place rounds on a target that is moving away after just having ran at full speed.
SilverBullet432
01-26-15, 10:01
Perp picks up gun. End of story. If he would have kept running, he could have been tasered/ltl. But no. Dummy picks up the gun and essentially, kills himself.
Overall the officer did a good job of maintaining control of the situation especially after the shooting. Glad to see the Pastor also backed the officer!
The other officer passed the perps pistol to the ground and the officer that shot him picked it up. I heard a click...was that the hammer being pulled back?
Was it the officer moving the safety of the pistol to the on position? Was the officer unsnapping a pouch on his belt to remove rubber gloves? Was the officer stepping on a twig?
Without physical evidence and/or witness statements your question leads to pure speculation. If it were a citizen involved in the shooting incident with the suspect, my opinion would be the same.
Whiskey_Bravo
01-26-15, 10:36
Perp picks up gun. End of story. If he would have kept running, he could have been tasered/ltl. But no. Dummy picks up the gun and essentially, kills himself.
This...
Another video of calm to shots fired in only seconds.
The title of the thread speaks volumes. Most deadly force incidents occur in only a few seconds from start to finish.
PA PATRIOT
01-26-15, 12:44
Having been involved in a OSI on more then one occasion my personal opinion is that this is a good shoot. One has to remember that just because the armed suspect may have been fleeing he is still a continuing threat to the officer and the public. The mere fact that the suspect dropped the gun and stopped to retrieve it shows a mind set that no matter what the suspect wished to stay armed and hence a "Continuing Threat". Now the use of deadly force is permissible to end this threat once all other options have been exhausted in most states but the game changer here is that the suspect pointed his gun in the officers direction and the officer responded. Now some are saying that the suspect may have been hit in the side or back which is really a non issue since the video clearly shows the suspects body was bladed and turning away as the in coming rounds impacted in these areas. I have seen suspects shooting at police or other persons while running away only slightly turning their bodies while doing so, so a shot to the back to stop that threat is justified. I hope this officer seeks out the support of family and friends should this incident weight heavily upon him and a few words to the lord from us on his behalf maybe in order.
Ambulance seemed to be taking its sweet time.....
Unless they were told the scene was secure they were probably still staging in the area.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-26-15, 15:37
Shot in the back while running away = "questionable" in my view. Armed or not, the perp was running like OJ to get away.
I don't know if I would have taken the shot with that car sitting there either. But I am not LE so what do I know..........
He might have saved someone from harm during the ensuing man hunt.
It appears I am in the minority on this one, oh well.
ETA: This is why I don't support the use of body cams. It opens up every action taken by the individual officer to be second guessed without all of the relevant context.
Well lets see what the law has to say about shooting someone in the back:
Tenn V Garner anyone?
Danger to society? Check
Armed with deadly weapon? Check
Fleeing felon? Check
So, the Supreme Court says this was a damn fine USOF.
Was it reasonable? Yes
Was it proportionate? Yes
Did the officer have the gift of 20/20 hindsight? No, therefore his actions on scene were entirely reasonable and he should be commended!
Moose-Knuckle
01-27-15, 16:08
Good shoot.
Bad guy took a dirt nap, LEO went home, female at the wedding unharmed.
It did me good to see the one LEO arrive on scene and deplore his SBR, note the CAT attached to the stock. In that situation who knows what is going on, anyone could have been in the crowd from the wedding/church. Might have been gang related and home slice's boyz could have opened up on the LEO while his back was to the crowd. That backup felt like an eternity all the while having to insure the subject was down, the pastor was staying clear, traffic on the road, etc. What a circus . . .
WickedWillis
01-27-15, 18:22
Glock 17?
No Idea, based on recoil pattern maybe 22?
PatrioticDisorder
01-27-15, 19:40
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Clean shoot, outstanding marksmanship!
Well lets see what the law has to say about shooting someone in the back:
Tenn V Garner anyone?
Danger to society? Check
Armed with deadly weapon? Check
Fleeing felon? Check
So, the Supreme Court says this was a damn fine USOF.
Was it reasonable? Yes
Was it proportionate? Yes
Did the officer have the gift of 20/20 hindsight? No, therefore his actions on scene were entirely reasonable and he should be commended!
The only information that really matters in the end.
Good shoot.
Bad guy took a dirt nap, LEO went home, female at the wedding unharmed.
It did me good to see the one LEO arrive on scene and deplore his SBR, note the CAT attached to the stock. In that situation who knows what is going on, anyone could have been in the crowd from the wedding/church. Might have been gang related and home slice's boyz could have opened up on the LEO while his back was to the crowd. That backup felt like an eternity all they while having to insure the subject was down, the pastor was staying clear, traffic on the road, etc. What a circus . . .
I noticed that thing on the stock of the rifle in this picture. Dumb question, what is a CAT?
I noticed that thing on the stock of the rifle in this picture. Dumb question, what is a CAT?
Combat Application Tourniquet (C-A-T)
PA PATRIOT
01-27-15, 23:18
I noticed that thing on the stock of the rifle in this picture. Dumb question, what is a CAT?
Combat Application Tourniquet (C-A-T)
My department issues a SOF tourniquet (Upgrade to the CAT) to every officer with a one hour training course on its use. Further more every officer is also able to attend a eight hour course on using a basic GSW kit and is issued one after completing said training. Its good to see these vital life saving pieces of equipment finding its way into everyday patrol and I'm sure you will be seeing officers wearing them on their duty belts in the near future.
Thanks guys. I had a kinda had a thought it was a tourniquet, but seem like a weird place (in my mind, but I'm a civilian without any Leo or mil training that doesn't know jack.)
But the important part is that the CAT is there to be used if needed in an emergency right?
I'm really starting to feel like I need training. I'm learning that I know so little.
Moose-Knuckle
01-28-15, 01:41
But the important part is that the CAT is there to be used if needed in an emergency right?
Correct. It stands to reason that if you are MIL/LEO (or even a civilian defending hearth and home) taking a firearm into harms way it only makes sense to have such equipment at the ready in the event you are wounded/a comrade is wounded/or you need to treat a victim on scene. Being bungeed to the stock affords instantaneous access.
I'm really starting to feel like I need training. I'm learning that I know so little.
Then you're right where you need to be. The problem is when people DON'T realize what they don't know.
Joe Teti (former Force Recon Marine and Army SF) of Discovery's Dual Survival series said it best:
"I consider myself a perpetual student. Sun Tzu in The Art of War says, "Be a student of war." That's what I am. You never hear me call myself an expert on any subject. I am constantly in learning mode."
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