G 19 Rear Sight drifted right to shoot dead on

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Sighted in the new sights today and the pistol is very accurate at 15 yards. However the rear sight is drifted noticeably to the right to shoot dead center. The factory sights were drifted slightly to the right and still shot left.

I am happy with the sight picture and accuracy, but I wonder how common is this for the rear sight not to be centered?

[controlledpairs2]

I own 4 glocks in 9mm and all of my rears are drifted right to be center at 25yards

[teutonicpolymer]

There is a good chance this is a trigger pull issue.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

There is a good chance this is a trigger pull issue.

The pistol was bench rested for sighting and the groups were tight. I don't think in this case I pulled off the point of aim.

[teutonicpolymer]

I am not saying this was for sure a trigger issue but it is still a possibility. It is possible to so consistently pull the trigger in a non-straight line with Glocks among other handguns that you get a tight grouping but it is deviated horizontally from what it should be. Not saying it is certainly the problem, but rather saying it coupd be the problem.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

I am not saying this was for sure a trigger issue but it is still a possibility. It is possible to so consistently pull the trigger in a non-straight line with Glocks among other handguns that you get a tight grouping but it is deviated horizontally from what it should be. Not saying it is certainly the problem, but rather saying it coupd be the problem.

I know exactly what you mean... with the heavy Glock trigger it would be more likely to pull to the right than push to the left.

[PLCedeno]

Gentlemen, on Glocks the rear sight has to be noticeably to the right to shoot dead center. It is a design characteristic.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Gentlemen, on Glocks the rear sight has to be noticeably to the right to shoot dead center. It is a design characteristic.

Good to know. It seemed odd to me. When I researched this it appeared not to be a consistent condition. So I wondered how common it was and of course wondered why this was needed to shoot to POI.

[jack852]

I have a 19 with the exact same issue. I had to drift right to have it shoot straight. Before anyone claims it is shooting technique, though, I have a G41 and the sights are perfectly aligned and I have no accuracy issue with it. I find it a bit bizarre that the 19 has this issue while the 41 does not.

[BooneGA]

*deleted*

[teutonicpolymer]

I have a 19 with the exact same issue. I had to drift right to have it shoot straight. Before anyone claims it is shooting technique, though, I have a G41 and the sights are perfectly aligned and I have no accuracy issue with it. I find it a bit bizarre that the 19 has this issue while the 41 does not.

It could still be technique- the .45 is in the (longer) barrel longer than the faster 9mm

The Glock trigger pull can be pretty gritty so you could be slicing it then coming back on center

Another thing to keep in mind is if you are using thumbs forward and pressing your support thumb into the frame you can guide the gun right.

These are all possibilities but it is hard to say anything with certainty over the internet of course, the guns could just be out of spec but I don't think it is that common.

[mayonaise]

Gentlemen, on Glocks the rear sight has to be noticeably to the right to shoot dead center. It is a design characteristic.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Baloney

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Would some more Glock armorers chime in about this?

[user]

Try benching it left (or opposite handed). If it changes, it's your trigger pull. If not it's the gun.

[regular_guy]

I'm just a regular dude, but I have run about a hundred folks through basic pistol instruction. You'd be surprised how many people tell me their pistols won't "shoot straight" without the sights being drifted to the extreme. After a few tweaks, they discover it was their technique, not the gun.

Just out of curiosity- has the pistol shot to the left for other shooters? I used to have a problem with "side-loading" Glocks, i.e. my grip pressure was inconsistently forcing the gun to one side (typically at speed/multiple shots). Training tools like the SIRT and a lot of dry fire fixed the issue to where I can now consistently shoot 2-3" groups at 25 yards and a 1/2 size IPSC steel at 150 with a G19.

I'm not saying your gun is not truly shooting left; just that you might want to consider some other variables before determining that the sight has to be drifted to the extreme.

[Psalms144.1]

I have seen Glocks that actually did shoot left - even with the rear sight drifted all the way right and multiple accomplished shooters behind the trigger, they would still print noticeably left of center.

Having said that, in about 98% of the "left shooting" Glocks I've seen, including my own, the issue was shooter induced (side pressure on the grip, not keeping the finger flat across the face the trigger throughout the pull, too much finger, too little finger, etc). As much as everyone touts what an "easy" pistol the Glock is to shoot well, it's really not. It takes a lot of practice on a specific skill set to be able to really get the accuracy out of them that accomplished shooters will crave.

The Glocks are easy to shoot FAST, no doubt about it, but, if all we want to do is make the banging noise, there are better tools...

[CAVDOC]

With very few exceptions factories make no effort to zero guns and a sight centered ( roughly) in the dovetail is a starting point. Depending on your accuracy demands it may or may not need adjustment. Most all my fixed sight guns have needed a tweak here or there to get them dead on to my standards.
Adjustable sights do address a need.
If groups are tight and consistent then moving the sight is the right answer

[T2C]

The rear sight not being centered on the slide when zeroed for windage should not be a big concern unless the rear sight is drifted all the way to one side of the slide. Your vision or shooting technique may make the shots go left with the rear sight centered. I am right handed/left eye dominant, so my rear sights are all adjusted to the right of center. Some drifting of the rear sight to correct for windage is not unusual.

Trigger technique, pressure on the grip, position of the support hand, your support hand index finger on the front of the trigger guard and vision can be factors that affect POI. I have run people through shooting courses who were shooting left of center with a Glock and by the end of the first day or beginning of the second day they were shooting dead center without a sight adjustment.

Does the pistol shoot to the left with several different kinds of ammunition? Does the weapon shoot to the left when one of your shooting buddies fires it?

[Noodles]

Gentlemen, on Glocks the rear sight has to be noticeably to the right to shoot dead center. It is a design characteristic.

Big concern for the quality of this site that this comment was not laughed all the way back to TOS where it would be right at home.

Biggest line of garbage I've seen in some time. Classic that it's in the form of a PSA.

You Suck It's Not The Gun.

[Failure2Stop]

Big concern for the quality of this site that this comment was not laughed all the way back to TOS where it would be right at home.

Biggest line of garbage I've seen in some time. Classic that it's in the form of a PSA.

You Suck It's Not The Gun.
I have owned Glocks that shoot to the left, some requiring noticeable drift to zero. Warren sights are intentionally biased to account for the left POI for their Glock sights. I have different degrees of rear sight bias on 3 different gen 4 G17s. I can consistently put 5 of 5 in a 3x5 card at 25 meters, generally place in the top 10% of competitive pistol events from bullseye type matches to Ltd USPSA, and don't see the same rear sight bias with Sigs, 1911s, M&Ps, or M9s, so it just might be the pistol.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

I'm just a regular dude, but I have run about a hundred folks through basic pistol instruction. You'd be surprised how many people tell me their pistols won't "shoot straight" without the sights being drifted to the extreme. After a few tweaks, they discover it was their technique, not the gun.

Just out of curiosity- has the pistol shot to the left for other shooters?

I'm not saying your gun is not truly shooting left; just that you might want to consider some other variables before determining that the sight has to be drifted to the extreme.

No one else has shot it yet. I will have a couple friends with Glocks see if they get the same results.

[controlledpairs2]

I have owned Glocks that shoot to the left, some requiring noticeable drift to zero. Warren sights are intentionally biased to account for the left POI for their Glock sights. I have different degrees of rear sight bias on 3 different gen 4 G17s. I can consistently put 5 of 5 in a 3x5 card at 25 meters, generally place in the top 10% of competitive pistol events from bullseye type matches to Ltd USPSA, and don't see the same rear sight bias with Sigs, 1911s, M&Ps, or M9s, so it just might be the pistol.

Thank you

[Linea_de_Fuego]

I have owned Glocks that shoot to the left, some requiring noticeable drift to zero. Warren sights are intentionally biased to account for the left POI for their Glock sights. I have different degrees of rear sight bias on 3 different gen 4 G17s. I can consistently put 5 of 5 in a 3x5 card at 25 meters, generally place in the top 10% of competitive pistol events from bullseye type matches to Ltd USPSA, and don't see the same rear sight bias with Sigs, 1911s, M&Ps, or M9s, so it just might be the pistol.

Yes, thanks for this.
The next time that I can get to the range I will get a target from another shooter and maybe post the pictures.

[Trajan]

Try not curling the finger and instead just bend the middle joint. You'll essentially hyper-extend the distal joint in pulling the trigger.

[markm]

It's called "glocking your trigger". Unless fired in a ransom rest, I'm reluctant to vote that it's the pistol.

I can even see it when dry firing, and trying will all my might to keep the front site from moving laterally when the staple gun trigger breaks.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

It's called "glocking your trigger". Unless fired in a ransom rest, I'm reluctant to vote that it's the pistol.

I can even see it when dry firing, and trying will all my might to keep the front site from moving laterally when the staple gun trigger breaks.

OK, I decided to speak to Glock customer service about this. Here is what I understood.

1 Nothing wrong with the pistol to shoot off the center axis.
2 Common for shooters to shoot left because of the uniqueness of the Glock trigger.
3 So the factory will set the rear sight to the right to compensate for trigger technique.

Bottom line seems to be to learn to shoot this platform. I will still get a target picture when I can.
BTW: The shots taken to sight in were not with the trigger reset.

[T2C]

I shoot Glocks with stock triggers with the first distal joint of the trigger finger close to touching the trigger. I did the same thing years ago to avoid shooting to the left with third generation Smith and Wesson pistols. You can get your share of X ring and 10 ring hits on a SR-1 center at 25 meters using this technique.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

I really felt that I had a steady trigger press.
Here is how the sight is positioned.
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag7/cbowles2/Glock/Rear%20sight_zpsuaihwyxr.jpg

[T2C]

In a lot of instances when you tighten the front sight screw during installation, an aftermarket sight will rotate slightly counter clockwise when viewed from the top unless you hold the sight steady with a pair of needle nose pliers. If the front sight is allowed to rotate and it is not completely parallel with the slide, the pistol will shoot to the left and will require the rear sight be right of center to zero windage. Some people just eyeball it, but I lay a 12" steel ruler along the side of the front sight to verify it is parallel to the slide.

Lay a 12" steel ruler along the right side of the front sight and verify it is parallel to the slide. If it is, the front sight is not contributing to the rear sight offset.

I don't think your rear sight looks that bad. I have a Gen 3 Glock 17 I purchased 3 years ago and the rear sight is offset about the same amount as yours.

It's not a $2,500 match pistol with hand fitted parts; it's a combat pistol. I would not give the way it looks a second thought if it hits POA.

[teutonicpolymer]

That is not as radical a drift as it sounded like. That looks like it could be within perfectly normal range so I would not worry about it so long as it works for you. If it still bothers you, you can try to determine if you are putting uneven pressure on the frame and guiding the muzzle but that looks okay.

[Tequila45]

I'm not a bad shot and I to also shoot my 30s slightly to the left. I have a set of warren sites installed on the gun and they are centered on the slide. I thought it was my doing but I don't do that with any of my other guns. I'll have someone else shoot it but all my buddies suck with pistols. Lol!

[Linea_de_Fuego]

In a lot of instances when you tighten the front sight screw during installation, an aftermarket sight will rotate slightly counter clockwise when viewed from the top unless you hold the sight steady with a pair of needle nose pliers. If the front sight is allowed to rotate and it is not completely parallel with the slide, the pistol will shoot to the left and will require the rear sight be right of center to zero windage. Some people just eyeball it, but I lay a 12" steel ruler along the side of the front sight to verify it is parallel to the slide.

Lay a 12" steel ruler along the right side of the front sight and verify it is parallel to the slide. If it is, the front sight is not contributing to the rear sight offset.

I don't think your rear sight looks that bad. I have a Gen 3 Glock 17 I purchased 3 years ago and the rear sight is offset about the same amount as yours.

It's not a $2,500 match pistol with hand fitted parts; it's a combat pistol. I would not give the way it looks a second thought if it hits POA.

Thanks for that.
It turns out that the front sight was pointed to the right side of the notch. I don't know what a difference the correction will make... we'll see.

[19852]

This thread gives me some solace since it seems I'm not the only one who shoots Glocks left of center. I confirm the sights from the bench then shoot off hand and get nice groups left of center. I know it's me and it has happened with every 9mm Glock I've ever used. Funny thing is that I have shot two non-9mm Glocks, albeit for a short time, and got nice center hits without any practice or grip adjustment. One a G21 .45 and the other a G42 .380. Makes me think a G21 might be a good idea for me.

[Singlestack Wonder]

Gentlemen, on Glocks the rear sight has to be noticeably to the right to shoot dead center. It is a design characteristic.

Not part of the design......it's a symptom of poor trigger control. Adjusting the sights to the right hides the symptom.

[Failure2Stop]

Here is a write-up I did a while ago on the subject:

Soooo...

Went out to zero 3 G17s:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141400.jpg
Each with different sights: Ameriglo CAP front w/ Pro-Operator Rear (IIRC), Trijicon HD, and Dawson FO (I can give the exact widths/heights if anybody actually gives a kitten).
They were just kinda smashed in and roughly centered by my calibrated Mk 1 Mod 2 eye.

Only had some Blazer brass on hand, wanted to see what effect some different ammo would do with regard to group shift, so I hit Walmart on the way:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141401.jpg

Grabbed the cheapest ammo (Perfecta), and headed to the 7 to quickly see if anything was wildly off.

I was happy to see that everything was close enough to POA to head back to the 25 yard line (measured with my accurate-enough for .gov work stride).

I started by shooting at B8 type targets, at a decent pace:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/th_0514141501.jpg (http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141501.mp4)
If you want to watch the video, click here:
http://s296.photobucket.com/user/Fail2Stop/media/0514141501.mp4.html
Don't worry; it's fast, no talking. It is also pretty boring. Sorry.

Not the pace I would recommend for someone trying to get the utmost precision, but it's the pace I feel comfortable slowing down to while still being "fast".

Shot with G17, stock except for Dawson sights and a magwell (I wanted to look cool for the video).

The Dawsons and Ameriglos needed no adjustment for deflection correction.
The only sights that I beat on were the Trijicon HDs, which were initially too far right, which I conveniently over-corrected:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141518.jpg
Yup, called the wild one on shot 5, I was getting bored by that string.

I was seeing more lateral deviation (my fault, not the guns), as everything but the CAPs shot high, which I generally do not choose for pistol POI (when I actually have a choice).

So, I went to 3x5 cards, oriented vertically. Holding on the bottom edge gave a good read on lateral deviation, and I really wasn't too concerned if I wasn't perfect on vertical dispersion since I can't correct that on the range. The below were all shot with the same G17, wearing Dawson FO sights, at 25ish yards, with a bottom-edge hold:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514142242.jpg
Ammo was PPU, Fed Red Box, and Perfecta, all 115 gr.
The PPU group has a shot in the top-right corner that was not part of that string, but rather from the string immediately proceeding it, before I really believed myself that I needed a no-kittening 6:00 hold. There is a double-strike in the center, evidenced by the darker grease-ring. I'll give closer pics if anyone wants to to be a dick. Of course, I could be lying about the top right shot, but it would still be decent enough for the purpose of this. Believe what you want; fight the power.

The PPU and Perfecta shot like that for just about every group (more on that in a second). I could not get the Blaser to put 5 shots on a card with that G17 within 15 rounds and decided that I would rather retain the ammo for close-range blaster practice than frustrate myself at 25 with it.

Here are the positions of the sights after the 25 yard work:

Dawson:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0515142248.jpg

Ameriglo (Pro Operator rear I think)
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0515142249.jpg

Triji HD:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0515142250.jpg

The positions shown provide nearly identical POI at 25 with the ammo shown.

So, while the groups aren't going to make any dedicated bullseye shooter amorous, they are sufficient to meet my needs.
No heavy right-side correction, but nothing left of center either.

Here's the kicker (or, if you are astute, here's the validation of your accusations in a sample size of one guy that hasn't done much pistol work in over a year):

I was able to enlarge my groups and shift them distinctly left (I am a right-handed shooter if I have the option) by using less trigger finger.
I have observed this in myself for a while, which prompted me to change my trigger finger placement to be more aggressive (almost the first joint).
There is no shortage of guys that are good with the Grock that do not agree with my trigger finger placement. I'm not saying that they are wrong, simply that their hands/fingers are not mine, and I can pull off decent enough precision with what I am doing at a pace that I believe to be relevant. It is not the trigger finger placement that I would recommend for a 1911, or some other pistols, but for me, with Glocks, it's good.

After getting happy with the POI of the guns dragged out into the rain (there might have been more pictures if it hadn't been intermittently raining, and had I brought more than 4 target refaces..) I did some moderate speed work on a plate rack at ~24yds and transitioned immediately to a vertical 5x8 card for the remainder of the magazine. Every time I got a sloppy hand-position and landed mid to tip of trigger finger my groups would be biased left on the 5x8. Of course, similar result when I went too fast on trigger even with my preferred finger placement.

I still need to see how better ammo stacks up against the ammo I used, frankly, I didn't want to shoot up my defensive ammo before I got my annual replacement, and I can't find 124gr S&B anywhere for a polite price.

Well, that's about it:
Crappy ammo shot better than I thought it should free-style.
Minimal right shift on sights (as usual for me), but pretty much no right-correction on Dawsons (I might measure the gaps; but don't hold your breath unless you're a good friend and I missed a recent event).
Bulk Fed still sucks.
I get off-side lateral shift with less than aggressive trigger finger placement.

YMMV, here's a pic of the best dog in the world:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0503142249.jpg

[T2C]

F2S,

Great report. I also use 3"x5" cards to check zero. I lay a level along side them to ensure the sides of the cards are plumb before stapling them to the target backboard. It makes it much easier for me to verify the sights are level when I fire a group and it gives a better indication of zero windage.

I have a Glock 22 that has the rear sight centered in the dovetail. Shooting with my trigger finger close to the first distal joint touching the right side of the trigger, getting decent hits on a B-27 silhouette at 100 yards is possible.

The wife would argue that we have the best dog in the world, but you have a nice dog there.

[Psalms144.1]

Here is a write-up I did a while ago on the subject:
Jack - most excellent work, thanks!

This goes back to something that's been whirling around in my mostly empty head for a while. For the longest time, we've been programmed that Glock has a "great trigger" because it's fairly light, and the reset nazis love it. But, in the last decade of teaching people to shoot with a variety of platforms (mostly Sig and Glock, however), I've found more people have more problems with the mechanics of shooting a Glock well than most other models. What I mean by this is, as you rightly pointed out, YOU have to use "a lot" of finger on the trigger to keep everything straight. Others advocate a different trigger press. Either the press you described works for a given shooter, or it doesn't.

Same thing with grip style. I've seen a variety of levels of pressure, counter-side-loading, etc advocated by a variety of extremely talented instructors. Not one of those techniques works for every Glock shooter I've met (or me).

I contrast that with teaching someone to be good with a classic Sig P-series, and it doesn't seem to have such a huge impact. In fact, I've NEVER had to advocate "more or less trigger" to a Sig shooter. And, barring addressing gross misapplications of grip, never had to make major corrections - and those corrections were only to aid in recoil management, not shot placement.

I'm not advocating that the Sig is BETTER than the Glock - I have my issued P229R boxed up ready to get FEDEX'd back to our armory since I only carry personally owned Glocks now. I'm just saying that the Glock seems to be PARTICULARLY sensitive to shooter-induced POA/POI issues - more so than any other make/model I can think of.

Just some random thoughts - thanks again for a great post.

Oh, and BTW, my Ridgeback agrees you have the second best dog in the world!

Regards,

Kevin

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Here is a write-up I did a while ago on the subject:

Soooo...

Went out to zero 3 G17s:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141400.jpg
Each with different sights: Ameriglo CAP front w/ Pro-Operator Rear (IIRC), Trijicon HD, and Dawson FO (I can give the exact widths/heights if anybody actually gives a kitten).
They were just kinda smashed in and roughly centered by my calibrated Mk 1 Mod 2 eye.

Thanks for posting the write up.

Seems to me given same shooter and same pistol model, the sights are centered or not dependent on the individual pistol. I know the sights themselves are the other variable, but I have to think the notch is centered on them all. Seems to be the individual pistol here, but still the shooter would seem to be the biggest sole factor in shooting.

[Robb Jensen]

All my Glocks I've had to adjust the rear a smidge to the right like 1/64" or even less. This is very typical for a right handed shooter shooting two handed to shoot them slightly left if the rear sight is dead center. You're shooting a 5.5-6lb trigger on a 30oz pistol. The lighter the trigger the less you'll have to run it to the right.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

All my Glocks I've had to adjust the rear a smidge to the right like 1/64" or even less. This is very typical for a right handed shooter shooting two handed to shoot them slightly left if the rear sight is dead center. You're shooting a 5.5-6lb trigger on a 30oz pistol. The lighter the trigger the less you'll have to run it to the right.

Do then left handed shooters position the sights to the left?

[Slab]

My 26 sights-dead center
My 32 sights-dead center
My 23 sights-dead center
My 17 sights-slightly right
My carry 19 sights-slightly right
My other 19s (2)-dead center

Most of these are heinie ledge sights with two sets of Hackathorn's... Both of the Glocks that are "slightly" right, have after market match barrels...

[SE Flyer]

Gentlemen, on Glocks the rear sight has to be noticeably to the right to shoot dead center. It is a design characteristic.

Perfection!

[jmoore]

After several decades of shooting many other types of pistols - I decided to switch to Glocks a few years back. I was shooting left like the OP described. As I had NO problem with any other pistol, I was convinved it was the Glock itself. Jumping forward and skipping a lot - it WAS user error. I can now make a Glock (I kave 2 17s and a 26) shoot POA=POI with centered sites. I am now convinced that most who shoot left have a shooter problem, not a gun problem. It takes more effort than on other pistols - but it CAN be done. I can correct the issue one of two ways - either using more finger, or using less dominant hand (right) thumb pressure.
If I had to take a guess, it is a combination of the unusual/squarish grip and the trigger mechanics that - when combined with trigger pulls developed on other pistols - cause the problem. YMMV:) - john

[Robb Jensen]

Do then left handed shooters position the sights to the left?

Yes that is often the case.

[Maiden3.16]

Count me As another that has to drift the rear sight right. I cant completely rule out shooting mechanics being the problem, but when you're shooting one hole groups left it's much easier correction to just drift the sight.

[Psalms144.1]

And I'll add as well that the single best pistol marksman I know personally also drifts his Glock sights slightly to the right instead of developing Glock-specific trigger and grip techniques...

[tonyxcom]

All 9 of my Glocks have centered sights and shoot dead center.

[og556]

I used to have this issue for years and thousands of rounds through G19's and G17's. For me personally, this may not apply to all, I had to move my support hand down a little on the grip to fix this and adjust how my trigger finger pressed back. So far since changing these two things I have not seen this issue.

With that said I was able to shoot the Glocks with excellent results and grouped consistently before fixing this issue. Now that I have fixed this I find that I can shoot even more quickly and accurately with Glocks. Oddly enough this issue did not happen for me with Sigs or 1911's. YMMV.

[tonyxcom]

Yeah I watched this very thing with a shooting buddy of mine today.

With his 41 he was shooting 5-10" off the left edge of the 6" paster - and a little low at 20y. Several mags worth.
I paint the 6" paster with a 2-3" group, several rounds touching.

He shoots is 17L with similar results, although maybe only 3-6" off the left edge.
Again, I paint the paster with rounds.

He switches to his P320 Full Size (9mm) and starts painting the 6" paster with hits. So he clearly knows how to aim. There is just something about the Glock trigger/grip that some people can't easily correct.

He later tries my Glock 17 with a semi race trigger and is able to paint a group on the left edge of the paster, so he was much more accurate and consistent with a lighter trigger.

[saints75]

Interesting. I am going to have to try this. I am shooting to the left most of the time.

[JBecker 72]

I shot this today with a new Glock 19 with factory night sights. The sight is perfectly centered in the slide. I shot at 15 yards using Winchester white box 115 gr. Haven't shot a Glock in over a year. When dry firing the sight doesn't wiggle unless I'm using just my left hand. Can't quite iron that one out yet.

12"x12" target, one 15 round mag.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s73/hownowbrowncow_02/Misc/55541C8C-4841-4C65-8694-5981A856C52C_zpswwqiaeyq.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/hownowbrowncow_02/media/Misc/55541C8C-4841-4C65-8694-5981A856C52C_zpswwqiaeyq.jpg.html)

[Maiden3.16]

Here is a 5 shot group at 15 Yds printing left with the sights centered. Happy withe the group, not with the placement. So For someone that shoots other brands of handguns aswell, I would rather use similar mechanics for all of them then have to make drastic changes from one to another. So it's easier for me to make a simple sight adjustment than to make technical changes. I could see why someone who only shoots Glock would do otherwise though.

http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah270/Maiden316/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsuvit6irj.jpg (http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/Maiden316/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsuvit6irj.jpg.html)

[militarymoron]

I'm left-handed, so when i 'glock the trigger', my shots go down and to the right. my sights on all my glocks are centered in the slide, and during slow fire, my shots are centered. but when i speed it up, my trigger finger pushes the muzzle down and to the right - the solution for me is 'more finger'.

as others have mentioned here, ammo can make a difference in point of impact. you can get changes in elevation and windage with different kinds of ammo. i was curious about that, so a few years ago i shot my RMR-equipped G17 at an indoor range (50 ft/16 yards) on the same target with a few different kinds of ammo. the RMR was sighted in with CCI blazer on the bottom right orange dot. center of target was shot with my G34/warren sights, so ignore that. you can see that some of the groups appear to the left, which is opposite of the direction when i 'glock my trigger'. anyways, you can see that at a longer distance (25 yards), the offset would be even greater.
ammo used was federal 100 gr ballistic clean, 115 gr WWB, CCI blazer, rem 147 gr subsonic and S&B 115 gr. Points of aim were orange or black dots. the pink translucent dots i overlaid later on over each group to help my visualization.

31335

[Linea_de_Fuego]

I'm left-handed, so when i 'glock the trigger', my shots go down and to the right. my sights on all my glocks are centered in the slide, and during slow fire, my shots are centered. but when i speed it up, my trigger finger pushes the muzzle down and to the right - the solution for me is 'more finger'.

as others have mentioned here, ammo can make a difference in point of impact. you can get changes in elevation and windage with different kinds of ammo. i was curious about that, so a few years ago i shot my RMR-equipped G17 at an indoor range (50 ft/16 yards) on the same target with a few different kinds of ammo. the RMR was sighted in with CCI blazer on the bottom right orange dot. center of target was shot with my G34/warren sights, so ignore that. you can see that some of the groups appear to the left, which is opposite of the direction when i 'glock my trigger'. anyways, you can see that at a longer distance (25 yards), the offset would be even greater.
ammo used was federal 100 gr ballistic clean, 115 gr WWB, CCI blazer, rem 147 gr subsonic and S&B 115 gr. Points of aim were orange or black dots. the pink translucent dots i overlaid later on over each group to help my visualization.

31335

Thanks for this.

I plan to go to the range with my friend tomorrow, who also has a G 19. His sights are centered and he is left handed. He does have the 3.5 # connector where I have the stock internals. So we will both shoot both pistols to see how we do. I will post the targets when I can.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Yeah I watched this very thing with a shooting buddy of mine today.

With his 41 he was shooting 5-10" off the left edge of the 6" paster - and a little low at 20y. Several mags worth.
I paint the 6" paster with a 2-3" group, several rounds touching.

He shoots is 17L with similar results, although maybe only 3-6" off the left edge.
Again, I paint the paster with rounds.

He switches to his P320 Full Size (9mm) and starts painting the 6" paster with hits. So he clearly knows how to aim. There is just something about the Glock trigger/grip that some people can't easily correct.

He later tries my Glock 17 with a semi race trigger and is able to paint a group on the left edge of the paster, so he was much more accurate and consistent with a lighter trigger.

My friend and I are planing to go to the range tomorrow. He is left handed and hie G19 is centered. We will shoot both pistols with the finger pad as usual and with the trigger in the finger joint. We'll see how both pistols shoot with different trigger finger placement and left vs. right hands.

[Eagle1*]

OK, I have followed this post long enough and I wanted to throw in my 0.02 cents.

I have been a certified Glock Armorer for 10 years and have trained civilians, road officers and swat guys on our team. I have seen guns that legitimately shoot off poa/poi and we have let multiple experienced, young extremely proficient officers shoot these particular weapons and they have shot the gun a little better but did have the same results just not as bad and that is how we confirmed this. Now, I know that some Glocks like certain ammo and some Glocks will not like the same ammo. I know this because I have multiples of the same model and some guns just don't like certain ammo. This is really noticeable if officers are issued the same gun, like the 17. Some guns just shoot better with the same issued ammo and the original poster could definitely try a different brand, weight of ammo to see if that may help! I have multiple gen4, G19's and one in particular is a tack driver with my departments issued ammo brand but another one of my own guns is not as accurate. It still gets the job done but if I wanted to go shoot competition, I would take the tack driver. These guns are meant for combat shooting guys, if you want a weapon to shoot competitions with the rounds are touching/clover leafing each other for the best score, then these guns are not meant for that. They are combat weapons guys... You can change the sights and improve on that but the sights that come on them are for combat, put the football in the goal and pull the trigger.

I have moved rear sights all the way to one side or the other on some guns and still end with the same result. Now, I know that most if not all are trigger finger placement and grip, cause I see right hand shooters shooting to the left and I have seen left handed shooters shooting to the right. It is body mechanics and the shooter just needs more concise practice with his/her gun where they can concentrate on all of the mechanics to become a great shooter. Practice makes perfect fellows and shooting is a perishable skill and not like riding a bicycle. If you do not continue to practice on the correct body mechanics on a weekly, monthly basis, you will not in grain this in your brain and remember what works and what does not.

Basically, I have seen a select few guns that just would not shoot a particular ammo but would shoot another manufactures ammo better. In the end, pistols are what they are, they are pistols and it is harder to get those small groups due to smaller sight radius's and such. Keep up the practice and be glad we live in a country that we can shoot our favorite firearms. Anyone that has any questions, please feel free to message me. Enjoy..

[MegademiC]

I haven't shot Glocks enough to comment on the platform, but I shot my m&p well but to the left, even benched. After much dryfire and watching front sight jump, and working on eliminating it, I now shoot poa = poi.

Point is, make sure you are mastering the trigger before adjusting sights. Dry fire is Imo the most important part of practice. Live fire is mostly verification when talking trigger control. Good luck!

[jmoore]

....... I would rather use similar mechanics for all of them then have to make drastic changes from one to another. So it's easier for me to make a simple sight adjustment than to make technical changes. I could see why someone who only shoots Glock would do otherwise though.

Sir, you are spot on with your comment! I initially shifted the sight, too. It frustrated the hell out of me to not be able to shoot a Glock like a 1911, or Sig, or M&P, etc.!!!! After MUCH work and as stated previously, I have decided to eat crow and agree that it was, in fact, shooter error/technique - at least in my case. Again - YMMV - john

[jmoore]

All 9 of my Glocks have centered sights and shoot dead center.

Do note that a more correct statement might be - "All 9 of my Glocks have centered sights and "I" shoot dead center (with them)." It is the gun AND the shooter that make up most of the POA/POI equation. FWIW - I have personally never seen a Glock shoot left out of a quality mechanical rest. - john

[tonyxcom]

I was just trying to destroy this notion that there are a percentage of Glocks that shoot left and need the sights drifted.

Funny how there is an equal proportion of Glocks that shoot left vs right as there are right vs left handers in this world.

I've been shooting since I was a kid but my serious gun ownership started in the last 10 years with a Glock 19. The only guns I shoot slightly left are thinner guns like my Shield and 42. But it was easy to correct by pulling the trigger closer to the crease, than the center of my finger.

[Surf]

Most who are familiar with me know that I am a big Glock shooter. I personally saw 700 or so Glocks last year and trained 700 shooters on the Gen4 G17, I also saw results from another 1400 or so. So just over 2000 shooters and 2000 Gen4 G17's in 2014. All had the Glock night sights factory installed. From memory, none of the sights had any noticeable drift left or right from factory and we armored all guns top to bottom before putting them in service. I personally had 3 that I needed to re-peen the rears and about 5 or so fronts that came loose after 2 days. We had 20 shooters per 2 day class with 2 classes per week. Statistics were very similar from class to class to class. While not completely scientific in statistical analysis, we did see that results from class to class to class was so dead on consistent that it really isn't that hard to extrapolate results. So from pure numbers this is what I saw:

- About 40-50% of shooters would have a opposite and often low push. It did not matter if they were left or right handed, the percentage seemed consistent. Of course there are far less lefties but the percentage held true. ALL shooters who had this problem had their pistols fired by myself personally or one of my two instructors. Sometimes more than one or all 3 of us fired their weapons during training. Only 1 sight adjustment made by pushing the sight. This was due to the shooter, not the weapon.

- ALL but 1 shooter had the problem corrected via correct training. Some struggled with old habits but if the shooter did their job, the pistol did its job. It is up to the shooter to continue with the technique adjustment and continue practice. A shooter can easily slip into old habits.

- We did use multiple techniques as to resolve shooter issues. No two people are built alike physically or mechanically in how they perform functions. More finger, less finger, natural point of aim issues, grip issues, stance issues, etc...so there needs to be alternatives to produce good results.

- Almost all the pistols that I signed off on were from WR to WS lot ranges, some outside of that, but all responded pretty much identical to the same ammo type. Meaning that when weapons shot the same ammo they performed pretty much equally in accuracy. I saw PMC 115 and Am Eagle 124. Another training group indoors used non lead frang. Any inconsistency was from batch or lots and different ammo, not that I could see different results from the same ammo types / lots in different pistols.


As for myself personally, I think the Glock has mostly minor issues, or I would not fix those issues on my own pistols. However the Glock does create some very good advantages for me, especially with a correct fitment. The trigger indeed can be a learning curve for some shooters but the results with the trigger are more so exacerbated by the grip of the weapon and the shooters interaction with it. Personally I think my trigger manipulation and control has benefitted from shooting many trigger types and I will continue by saying that heavy revolver triggers, heavy DA on DA/SA, Stock USGI M4/AR triggers and yes the Glock trigger have all made me a better shooter and better at trigger control and manipulation. I am completely convinced that mastery over a more difficult trigger will make you better with any trigger. Unlike those who are learn from day 1 on an easy trigger, will have poor results on a more challenging trigger. I also think (this is a generalization) that those who master a more challenging trigger will invariably have better trigger manipulation and control and pure marksmanship skills than someone who only knows a very good trigger. I know this will catch heat from some, but that does not make it any less true IME/O. It might take longer to get there, but I do feel the quality is better once the destination is reached.

[12oreo]

Here is a write-up I did a while ago on the subject:

Soooo...

Went out to zero 3 G17s:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141400.jpg
Each with different sights: Ameriglo CAP front w/ Pro-Operator Rear (IIRC), Trijicon HD, and Dawson FO (I can give the exact widths/heights if anybody actually gives a kitten).
They were just kinda smashed in and roughly centered by my calibrated Mk 1 Mod 2 eye.

Only had some Blazer brass on hand, wanted to see what effect some different ammo would do with regard to group shift, so I hit Walmart on the way:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141401.jpg

Grabbed the cheapest ammo (Perfecta), and headed to the 7 to quickly see if anything was wildly off.

I was happy to see that everything was close enough to POA to head back to the 25 yard line (measured with my accurate-enough for .gov work stride).

I started by shooting at B8 type targets, at a decent pace:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/th_0514141501.jpg (http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141501.mp4)
If you want to watch the video, click here:
http://s296.photobucket.com/user/Fail2Stop/media/0514141501.mp4.html
Don't worry; it's fast, no talking. It is also pretty boring. Sorry.

Not the pace I would recommend for someone trying to get the utmost precision, but it's the pace I feel comfortable slowing down to while still being "fast".

Shot with G17, stock except for Dawson sights and a magwell (I wanted to look cool for the video).

The Dawsons and Ameriglos needed no adjustment for deflection correction.
The only sights that I beat on were the Trijicon HDs, which were initially too far right, which I conveniently over-corrected:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514141518.jpg
Yup, called the wild one on shot 5, I was getting bored by that string.

I was seeing more lateral deviation (my fault, not the guns), as everything but the CAPs shot high, which I generally do not choose for pistol POI (when I actually have a choice).

So, I went to 3x5 cards, oriented vertically. Holding on the bottom edge gave a good read on lateral deviation, and I really wasn't too concerned if I wasn't perfect on vertical dispersion since I can't correct that on the range. The below were all shot with the same G17, wearing Dawson FO sights, at 25ish yards, with a bottom-edge hold:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0514142242.jpg
Ammo was PPU, Fed Red Box, and Perfecta, all 115 gr.
The PPU group has a shot in the top-right corner that was not part of that string, but rather from the string immediately proceeding it, before I really believed myself that I needed a no-kittening 6:00 hold. There is a double-strike in the center, evidenced by the darker grease-ring. I'll give closer pics if anyone wants to to be a dick. Of course, I could be lying about the top right shot, but it would still be decent enough for the purpose of this. Believe what you want; fight the power.

The PPU and Perfecta shot like that for just about every group (more on that in a second). I could not get the Blaser to put 5 shots on a card with that G17 within 15 rounds and decided that I would rather retain the ammo for close-range blaster practice than frustrate myself at 25 with it.

Here are the positions of the sights after the 25 yard work:

Dawson:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0515142248.jpg

Ameriglo (Pro Operator rear I think)
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0515142249.jpg

Triji HD:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0515142250.jpg

The positions shown provide nearly identical POI at 25 with the ammo shown.

So, while the groups aren't going to make any dedicated bullseye shooter amorous, they are sufficient to meet my needs.
No heavy right-side correction, but nothing left of center either.

Here's the kicker (or, if you are astute, here's the validation of your accusations in a sample size of one guy that hasn't done much pistol work in over a year):

I was able to enlarge my groups and shift them distinctly left (I am a right-handed shooter if I have the option) by using less trigger finger.
I have observed this in myself for a while, which prompted me to change my trigger finger placement to be more aggressive (almost the first joint).
There is no shortage of guys that are good with the Grock that do not agree with my trigger finger placement. I'm not saying that they are wrong, simply that their hands/fingers are not mine, and I can pull off decent enough precision with what I am doing at a pace that I believe to be relevant. It is not the trigger finger placement that I would recommend for a 1911, or some other pistols, but for me, with Glocks, it's good.

After getting happy with the POI of the guns dragged out into the rain (there might have been more pictures if it hadn't been intermittently raining, and had I brought more than 4 target refaces..) I did some moderate speed work on a plate rack at ~24yds and transitioned immediately to a vertical 5x8 card for the remainder of the magazine. Every time I got a sloppy hand-position and landed mid to tip of trigger finger my groups would be biased left on the 5x8. Of course, similar result when I went too fast on trigger even with my preferred finger placement.

I still need to see how better ammo stacks up against the ammo I used, frankly, I didn't want to shoot up my defensive ammo before I got my annual replacement, and I can't find 124gr S&B anywhere for a polite price.

Well, that's about it:
Crappy ammo shot better than I thought it should free-style.
Minimal right shift on sights (as usual for me), but pretty much no right-correction on Dawsons (I might measure the gaps; but don't hold your breath unless you're a good friend and I missed a recent event).
Bulk Fed still sucks.
I get off-side lateral shift with less than aggressive trigger finger placement.

YMMV, here's a pic of the best dog in the world:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/0503142249.jpg

All I can say is...................that is a nice looking pooch.:)

[jmoore]

....... but the results with the trigger are more so exacerbated by the grip of the weapon and the shooters interaction with it. ......

Totally agree. There is just somethng about that "2x4" shaped grip (and how they grip it) that gives some people fits! While I can "correct" my problem with more trigger finger, it is easier and more consistent to change my grip. The grip aspect also fits well with the fact that for many (myself included) - the problem decreases or goes away when switching from a G17 to a G26. Less grip means less contact to screw things up and torque the shot.:)

I always tell folks that shooting a Glock can be, for some, similar to trying to ride a high strung horse! It may take more work and effort on YOUR part, but the results CAN be achieved:) Cheers! - john

PS - And a SIRT pistol goes a long way towards helping, even though the trigger isn't quite like that on my Glocks.

[tonyxcom]

Personally I think my trigger manipulation and control has benefitted from shooting many trigger types and I will continue by saying that heavy revolver triggers, heavy DA on DA/SA, Stock USGI M4/AR triggers and yes the Glock trigger have all made me a better shooter and better at trigger control and manipulation. I am completely convinced that mastery over a more difficult trigger will make you better with any trigger. Unlike those who are learn from day 1 on an easy trigger, will have poor results on a more challenging trigger.

I have come to this conclusion as well. I have watched and read about a lot of shooters coming from different platforms, mostly hammer fired, to Glock's and giving up on the Glock after a single range trip because they can't shoot it straight. I've always said they are just spoiled by the lighter triggers which might even mask problems in their overall technique. Shoot something with a heavier trigger like a Glock and these problems in fundamentals become exaggerated.

Aside from some pointing issues, I don't recall ever reading about someone that can shoot a Glock effectively having difficulty shooting just about any other handgun. This isn't to say that Glock is the benchmark for bad triggers, but it could be possible that its the hardest to master.

I feel the same about my shooting after owning an RMR equipped 19 for somewhere near a year now and the associated dry/live fire practice I spent on it. I can now shoot the same tight groups at 7-15y with irons as I can with a red dot.

[JBecker 72]

Shooting my Beretta in DA mode has certainly made me a better pistol shooter.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Someone at the range tonight in response to this business said "it's the Indian, not the arrow" which is what many of you said about the Glock platform. I first shot five rounds at 15 yards with my finger pad on the trigger and then five rounds with my finger set deeper near the joint. The first target I shot left and the second right. While nothing to write home about with indoor range lighting it did show me the effects of how I press the trigger. My left handed friend may have shot with opposite results but was too inconsistent to draw a firm conclusion.

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag7/cbowles2/Glock/1_zpskjabvcn1.jpg

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag7/cbowles2/Glock/3_zpsiif2nfvf.jpg

When I warmed up the results were a better group as seen below, but I still push the shots slightly left even with a lot of finger on the trigger.

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag7/cbowles2/Glock/4_zpsvdvuuhci.jpg

When I shot my friends G19 with centered sights and my finger deep onto the trigger the rounds landed to the left as seen here.

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag7/cbowles2/Glock/5_zpsghis4ay3.jpg

I think the take away from all this for me is that this platform is difficult to master although one can adjust the sights to fit his ergonomic style and get acceptable on target hits. It is humbling to say the least.

Thanks to all for the discussion.

[T2C]

Glad to hear you are getting this sorted out OP.

Now that you are experimenting with trigger finger placement, look at another aspect of your shooting technique.

For some people overgripping the pistol with the support hand will cause groups to move left. This is for a right handed shooter: when you grip the pistol take a look at the drum sticks on your thumbs on the left side of the grip. They should be touching or have a paper thin gap between them.

I know a few people who overgrip the pistol for faster follow up shots with their Glocks and they accept a slightly left POI. They are looking for speed more than accuracy. I will occasionally do the same, but go back to a grip where the drum sticks on the thumbs touch for more precise shots.

Once you are comfortable with knowing how to manipulate hand position, pressure with your grip and trigger finger position and how they affect POI, increase your target distance and continue to experiment. Putting these aspects of technique into practice will help mentally reinforce them and your ability to hit at longer ranges will improve. To reinforce this, one of the drills I had people do during our annual carbine qualifications was to shoot their Glock 22 at 100 yards. You would be surprised at how well some people shot at that distance.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Glad to hear you are getting this sorted out OP.

Now that you are experimenting with trigger finger placement, look at another aspect of your shooting technique.

For some people overgripping the pistol with the support hand will cause groups to move left. This is for a right handed shooter: when you grip the pistol take a look at the drum sticks on your thumbs on the left side of the grip. They should be touching or have a paper thin gap between them.

I know a few people who overgrip the pistol for faster follow up shots with their Glocks and they accept a slightly left POI. They are looking for speed more than accuracy. I will occasionally do the same, but go back to a grip where the drum sticks on the thumbs touch for more precise shots.

Once you are comfortable with knowing how to manipulate hand position, pressure with your grip and trigger finger position and how they affect POI, increase your target distance and continue to experiment. Putting these aspects of technique into practice will help mentally reinforce them and your ability to hit at longer ranges will improve. To reinforce this, one of the drills I had people do during our annual carbine qualifications was to shoot their Glock 22 at 100 yards. You would be surprised at how well some people shot at that distance.

Thanks for the help.

I do mate my grip that way with my thumbs pointing forward, and I had learned not to influence my grip with my index finger while using the finger pad to press straight back. This is how I shoot a 1911, but that is quite a different story.

I never seemed to notice this discrepancy with the Gen 2 model 19 or the G30.

[Noodles]

Thanks for the help.
I never seemed to notice this discrepancy with the Gen 2 model 19 or the G30.

It's definitely a shooter problem, really end of story - however, I will concede that specific grip and trigger designs can accentuate issues to give that low and left issue. Finger grooves, trigger weights, frame sizes all play into how you hold the gun and what might be an issue. That said, shifting the sights to compensate is a bad idea, push beyond your comfort distance and you'll find you are low and left again.

Typically, I have people who complain about their sights being "off" to run a 50 round dot drill. I'll usually see noticeably better accuracy with weak hand only shooting than two-handed if you can get the shooter to go slow.

I have YET to see a glock that the owner complained about shooting low and left have the same issue when I try them out. Occasionally, if I'm rushing or shooting from a non-ideal position/platform I'll get the same issue, but finger placement and not "giving up the gun" go a long way when shooting all handguns not to specifically mention glocks.

But going back, lol at the idea that Glock ships the gun with the sights off.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

It's definitely a shooter problem, really end of story

But going back, lol at the idea that Glock ships the gun with the sights off.

I get it now about the shooter being the limiting factor. It was the same when I used to race cars.

The sight did start off to the right, but I will try to get this platform to work. What I understand is that it is all about the trigger press and dry firing. Is there anything more specific that I can do?

[Noodles]

I get it now about the shooter being the limiting factor. It was the same when I used to race cars.

The sight did start off to the right, but I will try to get this platform to work. What I understand is that it is all about the trigger press and dry firing. Is there anything more specific that I can do?

Shoot prone to test it. Shoot a "dot torture drill". Shoot one handed. Add more support hand pressure and less strong hand. Try shooting with gloves on.

I've found that with handguns if I focus more on running a tool than running a Glock or a PPQ or a 1911, that I'll do a little better. I'm going to pull the trigger, it'll recoil and I'll get that front sight back where I want it and then reset. Just put some rounds down it.

Don't tell yourself you are having a problem, or "you can't" shoot glocks, or that you "always" shoot glocks low and left because then you will have those issues. I think a lot of it for many people is a mental hang up.

[Failure2Stop]

Is there anything more specific that I can do?

Lots of one-handed dry-fire (both hands), paying absolute attention to what the front sight does as the striker drops. The goal is to have the front sight stay absolutely, perfectly still through the break. High grip pressure helps, but if you don't have strong hands that high grip pressure will make the gun vibrate and trigger control will be difficult.
Play with finger position to find what works best for you.
Use different speeds of trigger press; not everything is answered by a 10 second press.
DO NOT back-off on grip during dry-fire, and make sure you are gripping from front to back, not with fingertips or thumb.
Break it up. If you find yourself loosening up on grip or focus not hard on the front sight, take a break and get your head back into it.
Treat every dry rep like it's live, and don't change anything in your trigger press when you go live.

[tonyxcom]

You can also try getting one of those cheap rail mounted lasers from Amazon. A laser on the wall really tells the whole truth.

[Surf]

Provided the weapon is mechanically correct, it is not 100% the trigger pull. While trigger pull is a big factor especially for left or right movement, the high or low movement is often changes in grip and / or body mechanic during the trigger pull. You can still pull the trigger straight to the rear but tightening of the grip especially with the pinkie and ring finger applying pressure on the bottom of the front strap of the pistol can create havoc and the hump on the backstrap only accentuates that. Most people are completely unaware of how their grip has uneven pressure with the various fingers. On many pistol types it matters less, but it does matter quite a bit with the Glock. This is one of my biggest gripes with the pistol, however if you can learn to be more correct and consistent with pressures exerted onto the grip of the pistol, it will make you better with any pistol. Other pistols are just more forgiving than the Glock when it comes to this. Finger grooves gone, hump on the backstrap reduced and yep you greatly improve the pistol.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Provided the weapon is mechanically correct, it is not 100% the trigger pull. While trigger pull is a big factor especially for left or right movement, the high or low movement is often changes in grip and / or body mechanic during the trigger pull. You can still pull the trigger straight to the rear but tightening of the grip especially with the pinkie and ring finger applying pressure on the bottom of the front strap of the pistol can create havoc and the hump on the backstrap only accentuates that. Most people are completely unaware of how their grip has uneven pressure with the various fingers. On many pistol types it matters less, but it does matter quite a bit with the Glock. This is one of my biggest gripes with the pistol, however if you can learn to be more correct and consistent with pressures exerted onto the grip of the pistol, it will make you better with any pistol. Other pistols are just more forgiving than the Glock when it comes to this. Finger grooves gone, hump on the backstrap reduced and yep you greatly improve the pistol.

I always wondered why I saw that grip treatment so often in the Glock picture thread.

[T2C]

Is there anything more specific that I can do?

Yes sir you can. Dry firing helps tremendously. A good dry fire drill is the dime drill. Try performing dime drills until you can press the trigger to the rear 10 times in a row without the dime jumping off the top of the front sight. I helps with both physical skills and mental focus.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Yes sir you can. Dry firing helps tremendously. A good dry fire drill is the dime drill. Try performing dime drills until you can press the trigger to the rear 10 times in a row without the dime jumping off the top of the front sight. I helps with both physical skills and mental focus.

That's a tough drill but effective. I kept my finger deep into the trigger and learned to squeeze the pistol tighter.
I started off not being able to do one, but this drill does teach what works. After 15 minutes I got up to 12 and the dime fell onto the slide backwards. My front sight is .140. This tool was the most expedient one to go to, since I had a dime in my pocket. :D

Thanks again to everyone for the help.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

I went back to the range today with centered rear sights.

If I do my part the pistol shoots to the point of aim. That's not to say that I didn't have some flyers, but I did confirm that the pistol will shoot as intended when the shooter does his part.

Thanks again to everyone for the help.

[Fasstasheck]

All 3 of mine are slightly right.

[JonInWA]

I have 5 Glocks, including two G19s. All of mine are Gen 3 Glocks. Mine are used for carry and competition (IDPA and GSSF). All are zeroed and sorted out. On four of them, the sights are perfectly centered for center hold POI/POI. One of the G19s, however, needed to have the rear sight drifted a bit to the right. I've worked on another Glock that required the rear sight to be pushed past the top of the slide to achieve this; it was a Gen 3 G19. It was sent to Glock for analysis and correction-they did replace some internal parts (I believe the slide lock and slide lock spring).

My conclusion is that sometimes it can be the shooter/technique, sometimes it can in fact be the gun. Benching and/or having other credible/experienced shooters provide their feedback after firing the gun can be very useful in isolating/eliminating any issues/causal factors.

Best, Jon

[williejc]

On my handguns from many different makers, my grip and trigger technique require that the sights be moved to the right for a dead center hit at 15 yards plus. Decades ago I figured out what was happening with impact points.

[Ron3]

I was wondering why this thread had so many posts...

I haven't had this issue with sights on Glocks. I've changed out several and every time if the rear sight looks centered per my eyeball view from the top, the gun shoots true enough.

Now I assume were talking about baseline accuracy / POI. Leaving out ammo, various holds, ranges, and motions.

I'm not a huge fan of the Glock grip or trigger feel. If those were better I'd shoot better. But I am a fan of Glocks and four inch groups where I want them at 25 yds is what I consider "pretty good" from me and a self-defense pistol and ammo.

[duece71]

Yep, I have had this issue on both of my Glocks and also on a 1911. For me it's a trigger finger issue, not the sights.

[PaLEOjd]

Gentlemen, on Glocks the rear sight has to be noticeably to the right to shoot dead center. It is a design characteristic.

PLEASE say that you are joking........This post should be removed.

[Noodles]

PLEASE say that you are joking........This post should be removed.

Beat you to it. What surprised me the most wasn't that post is still there, that someone that I would have thought knew better came in an basically backed up that nonsense.

[Failure2Stop]

Beat you to it. What surprised me the most wasn't that post is still there, that someone that I would have thought knew better came in an basically backed up that nonsense.

I have seen far more Glocks that require right side bias than those that require left side bias in high-performing shooter's hands.
This is more prevalent in Glocks than in any other pistol I have observed, so I would not call it "nonsense" with regard to shooter in the loop POI.

[PD Sgt.]

I recently put a Dawson adjustable rear on a Gen3 G34, factory stock barrel. With my 124g reloads firing from a bagged rest I had to move the rear about 4 or 5 clicks right IIRC to zero at 20 yards keeping 1 to 1.25 inch groups. Just enough that it is noticeable looking down at the top of the sight.

While I do not claim to be a great shot by any means, I am competent enough to notice right bias in at least one of my 19s as well.

[T2C]

I can shoot reasonably tight groups centered, off to the right and off to the left of POA by manipulating my grip and trigger technique. There are a great number of people who can do the same. A few of my handguns, including wheel guns, have the sight moved to the right of center to zero at 25 meters, but I never really saw it as a problem. One of the wheel guns has the rear sight right of center and it can hold the 10 ring on a B-27 at 50 yards.

If you have a lot of trigger time with your pistol, your technique works for you and the sight is not hanging outside the dovetail, then run with it.

[Maiden3.16]

If you have a lot of trigger time with your pistol, your technique works for you and the sight is not hanging outside the dovetail, then run with it.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

[PLCedeno]

Beat you to it. What surprised me the most wasn't that post is still there, that someone that I would have thought knew better came in an basically backed up that nonsense.

I took some time to research this further before having a knee jerk reaction.

1. I checked my notes from the last time I took the Armorers course and found a notation indicating that all Glocks are sent out of the factory with a right side bias to the rear sight. Presumably to compensate for a POI bias to the left.

2. Went to my local gun store and reviewed the guns in stock and noticed that regardless of caliber, there was a right side bias to the rear sight. About 20 guns.

3. Called the Glock Senior Instructor I took the last course with and asked about this and was told that indeed all Glocks are sent out of Smyrna with a rear sight bias to compensate for POI to the left.

4. Called Glock CS where I asked for a supervisor and was told the same as above but with the caveat that this is done because most right handed shooters seem to shoot POI to the left so the compensation is done for the benefit of the overwhelming majority of right handed shooters. The overwhelming majority of shooters (including those who are well and properly trained) tend to shoot Glocks with a left POI bias. I was told that with a left handed shooter the rear sight should first be set dead center. I inquired about where a typical G17 would shoot if placed on a Ransom rest? The response was that if you eliminate the human element the gun would shoot center if the rear sight was center.

My post indicated that the rear sight bias was due to a "design Characteristic". That was incorrect. There does however appear to be a need for a drifting of the rear sight (to the right) by the factory to compensate for the majority of right handed shooters shooting to the left. My apologies as I misinterpreted what I was taught.

[CanineCombatives]

Every glock I've ever owned since 86 needed rear sight right bias, all 4 generations.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

I took some time to research this further before having a knee jerk reaction.

1. I checked my notes from the last time I took the Armorers course and found a notation indicating that all Glocks are sent out of the factory with a right side bias to the rear sight. Presumably to compensate for a POI bias to the left.

2. Went to my local gun store and reviewed the guns in stock and noticed that regardless of caliber, there was a right side bias to the rear sight. About 20 guns.

3. Called the Glock Senior Instructor I took the last course with and asked about this and was told that indeed all Glocks are sent out of Smyrna with a rear sight bias to compensate for POI to the left.

4. Called Glock CS where I asked for a supervisor and was told the same as above but with the caveat that this is done because most right handed shooters seem to shoot POI to the left so the compensation is done for the benefit of the overwhelming majority of right handed shooters. The overwhelming majority of shooters (including those who are well and properly trained) tend to shoot Glocks with a left POI bias. I was told that with a left handed shooter the rear sight should first be set dead center. I inquired about where a typical G17 would shoot if placed on a Ransom rest? The response was that if you eliminate the human element the gun would shoot center if the rear sight was center.

My post indicated that the rear sight bias was due to a "design Characteristic". That was incorrect. There does appear to be a need for a drifting of the rear sight (to the right) by the factory to compensate for the majority of right handed shooters shooting to the left. My apologies as I misinterpreted what I was taught.

This is exactly what I came to understand.

So the take away from this discussion is to learn how to shoot the platform with sights centered or adjust the sight for your trigger technique. YMMV

[Tequila45]

I've shot my wife's 19 and my 30s and I am consistently shooting groups about two inches left of the bullseye. I've tried changing my grip, more finger on the trigger less finger, it still prints left. I'm going to hate the fact my sights aren't centered but I'm going to have to adjust them.

[Failure2Stop]

I've shot my wife's 19 and my 30s and I am consistently shooting groups about two inches left of the bullseye. I've tried changing my grip, more finger on the trigger less finger, it still prints left. I'm going to hate the fact my sights aren't centered but I'm going to have to adjust them.
2" at what distance?

From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff

[Tequila45]

2" at what distance?

From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
10yds.

[quackhead]

That's quite a shift for 10 yds . Have you tried adjusting your grip/ trigger squeeze as referenced in this post?

[Tequila45]

That's quite a shift for 10 yds . Have you tried adjusting your grip/ trigger squeeze as referenced in this post?

Yes I have adjusted my grip/finger. I don't shoot left with either of my m&p's, either of my fnp's or even my gp100. The glocks are the only ones I shoot left. I'm not a bad shot, my groups are no bigger than a tennis ball at 10yds and they are consistent sized groups.

[Failure2Stop]

10yds.

When I am discussing drifting the sight, it is with a gun/shooter/ammo combination that will hold 80% 10-ring sized groups on a B8 at 25 yards.

[T2C]

When I am discussing drifting the sight, it is with a gun/shooter/ammo combination that will hold 80% 10-ring sized groups on a B8 at 25 yards.

I am inclined to agree. When training new LEO personnel, I would not make a sight adjustment if any rounds hit outside the black, which is roughly 5-1/2".

[quackhead]

I have seen several Glocks that needed sights slightly drifted to the right to zero- they were shot side by side with identical Glocks with centered sights. I do beleive there may be some issues

[Zonie]

I have owned Glocks that shoot to the left, some requiring noticeable drift to zero. Warren sights are intentionally biased to account for the left POI for their Glock sights. I have different degrees of rear sight bias on 3 different gen 4 G17s. I can consistently put 5 of 5 in a 3x5 card at 25 meters, generally place in the top 10% of competitive pistol events from bullseye type matches to Ltd USPSA, and don't see the same rear sight bias with Sigs, 1911s, M&Ps, or M9s, so it just might be the pistol.

I was about to say that every single one of my Glocks has rear sights that are dead center in the slide and they are all zero'd... But every single one of my Glocks has Warren sights on them.

[Failure2Stop]

I was about to say that every single one of my Glocks has rear sights that are dead center in the slide and they are all zero'd... But every single one of my Glocks has Warren sights on them.

If you and willing and have a set of calipers, measure the distance from the inside of the notch to the outside of the sight on both sides.
Curious as to how much difference there is. I don't have any Warrens anymore, and I don't remember how much difference I measured several years ago.

[Redhat]

I have a pet theory this tendency might be caused by the angle of the grip to the trigger...

[str8tshot]

This has been a very interesting dialogue. I too tend to have a POI slightly left (1/2" a 10yrds with >1" group) of center on my Gen4 G17. I do not have the same problem with my G30s or any other handgun. I have worked on technique, and even paid for a private lesson to correct that issue. I was told I had a bit of a flinch because the shots were slightly left and low (the typical POI wheel diagnosis). I see through this thread that the symptom is a common theme with two possible resolutions: better technique, or drift the rear sight to the right. I would rather work on technique to improve overall. Thanks for the original question OP, and the responses from everyone.

[teksid]

I have been shooting Glocks for years. I have Five that shoot dead center, but my Gen 2 G19 shoots left with the rear sight dead centered. It has the lightest trigger of them all.

[tonyxcom]

If you and willing and have a set of calipers, measure the distance from the inside of the notch to the outside of the sight on both sides.
Curious as to how much difference there is. I don't have any Warrens anymore, and I don't remember how much difference I measured several years ago.

I just measured a Comp rear and a Tactical rear and they are perfectly equal.

[Failure2Stop]

I just measured a Comp rear and a Tactical rear and they are perfectly equal.

Interesting. Going to need to go back and check some sources.

[Larry Vickers]

I have a pet theory this tendency might be caused by the angle of the grip to the trigger...

My guess is your pet theory has some real merit....

[Mohawkdcg]

I have a G23 that has shot a bit to the left from day 1 new out of the box. I don't have that problem with my G27 or with other brands of handguns. So I have the rear sight a little to the right to compensate. The proof that it is the barrel or it's fit to the gun is that when I drop in a Lone Wolf barrel, the problem is corrected.

[Failure2Stop]

For what it is worth, I talked to Scott Warren.
According to him, the rear notch is centered, and at no point were the notches in Warren rear sights ever intentionally biased to the right.
It is possible that some were slightly biased during manufacturing, but not per design.
I formally withdraw my comment about the right offset as a design feature on Warren sights.

[T2C]

I purchased a Glock 42 for the wife, on April 30th, at her request. I took it out May 1st and fired our retired LEO qualification course twice on the same target. I fired 30 rounds of Brown Bear FMJ and 30 rounds of CCI Lawman HP on the same target for a total of 60 rounds. The course of fire requires shots out to 15 yards.

The rear sight is centered on the slide. If you take a close look, you will notice the pistol shoots left with both types of ammunition. There are 52 COM shots and 8 head shots on the target.

Apparently some Glocks do shoot left. I stand corrected.