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Joe Mamma
07-02-08, 11:14
Here's an interesting press release. That's a hell of a lot of shotguns.

* * * * * * *
Press Release FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department Selects Remington® Model 870™ Pump Action Shotguns

MADISON, N.C., May 21, 2008 – Remington Arms Company, Inc., announced today it has been awarded a contract to provide the largest sheriff’s agency in the World – the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department – with 4,200 new shotguns. All shotguns within the contract are based upon the proven Model 870 platform, which addresses a number of law enforcement applications.

While meeting all technical requirements outlined by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Remington will supply 3,000 customized Model 870 pump shotguns to be utilized by county patrol deputies, 900 less-than-lethal shotguns, and 300 newly configured shotguns to meet the unique and demanding requirements of their motorcycle units.

“We are honored to be selected by such a prestigious organization as LASD to supply an array of application specific solutions based upon the most reliable shotgun platform today  our Model 870,” stated E. Scott Blackwell, Remington’s President of Global Sales, Marketing and Product Development. “The opportunity to develop and deliver in a timely manner three shotgun configurations essential to the specific needs of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department is something Remington is proud of.”

“Our entire law enforcement business development team focuses on truly listening to customer needs and providing solutions to help them meet the grueling demands of an officer’s role on a daily basis,” added Mike Chamberlain, Remington’s Vice President of Law Enforcement. “Partnering with All State Police Equipment Company of Los Angeles, Remington anticipates delivery to begin June, 2008.”

Since its introduction in 1950, nearly 10 million Model 870 shotguns have been produced. It remains the overwhelming choice for law enforcement divisions due to its historical dependability. Through numerous configurations and variants, the Model 870 platform is used for law enforcement, military applications and sporting purposes in more than 50 countries including the United States.

* * * * * * *

Link: http://www.remingtonle.com/news/pr15.htm

Joe Mamma

Iraqgunz
07-02-08, 13:39
Too bad they can't more rifles. Since I live in LA County almost every patrol car I have seen has had shotguns in them. I can only assume that they are possibly replacing some of their older weapons. Wonder why they don't consider doing some upgrades instead.


Here's an interesting press release. That's a hell of a lot of shotguns.

* * * * * * *
Press Release FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department Selects Remington® Model 870™ Pump Action Shotguns

MADISON, N.C., May 21, 2008 – Remington Arms Company, Inc., announced today it has been awarded a contract to provide the largest sheriff’s agency in the World – the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department – with 4,200 new shotguns. All shotguns within the contract are based upon the proven Model 870 platform, which addresses a number of law enforcement applications.

While meeting all technical requirements outlined by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Remington will supply 3,000 customized Model 870 pump shotguns to be utilized by county patrol deputies, 900 less-than-lethal shotguns, and 300 newly configured shotguns to meet the unique and demanding requirements of their motorcycle units.

“We are honored to be selected by such a prestigious organization as LASD to supply an array of application specific solutions based upon the most reliable shotgun platform today  our Model 870,” stated E. Scott Blackwell, Remington’s President of Global Sales, Marketing and Product Development. “The opportunity to develop and deliver in a timely manner three shotgun configurations essential to the specific needs of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department is something Remington is proud of.”

“Our entire law enforcement business development team focuses on truly listening to customer needs and providing solutions to help them meet the grueling demands of an officer’s role on a daily basis,” added Mike Chamberlain, Remington’s Vice President of Law Enforcement. “Partnering with All State Police Equipment Company of Los Angeles, Remington anticipates delivery to begin June, 2008.”

Since its introduction in 1950, nearly 10 million Model 870 shotguns have been produced. It remains the overwhelming choice for law enforcement divisions due to its historical dependability. Through numerous configurations and variants, the Model 870 platform is used for law enforcement, military applications and sporting purposes in more than 50 countries including the United States.

* * * * * * *

Link: http://www.remingtonle.com/news/pr15.htm

Joe Mamma

Buck
07-02-08, 14:34
We did this a few years ago too... Both the LAPD and the LASD have used the Ithaca 37 / 87 as our primary patrol shotgun for the last 60 + years... The only reason we switched to the Remington 870 is that Ithaca Gun Company went out of business and we couldn't buy any more spare parts...

About three or four years ago we started phasing out the 37s / 87s in all of our patrol divisions and replacing them with 870s, although there are still some floating around in traffic divisions and other places... We gave most of our 37s and the remaining spare parts in our inventory to the LASD who limped along with them for a few years, but now they need a solution too, and they, like us, chose the 870 Police with rifle sights as their primary duty shotgun...

B

Buck
07-02-08, 14:35
Wonder why they don't consider doing some upgrades instead.

Just curious... Like what???

B

BC520
07-02-08, 14:56
In this day and age of getting away from shotguns and going to rifles again, why is the LASD and LAPD still working with 12 gauges?

I wouldn't get rid of them, but with the disadvantages they do have vs the advantages of M4's I would have figured they would have been a bit more progressive.

TroyTK
07-02-08, 15:17
Does anyone know what the version is that will be given to motorcycle officers? I was speaking with some of our motor officers, and they were mentioning how much they would like a long gun on the motor. They were more interested in rifles, but maybe a shotgun would work.

Our problem is that the gun would have to be fully concealed, which would limit it to the saddlebag now. I couldn't think of a decent rifle that would fit in that space.

Buck
07-02-08, 15:46
In this day and age of getting away from shotguns and going to rifles again, why is the LASD and LAPD still working with 12 gauges?

I wouldn't get rid of them, but with the disadvantages they do have vs the advantages of M4's I would have figured they would have been a bit more progressive.

What disadvantage??? They are both tools, and they both have their place... Several of our patrol officers have also gone to a 40 hour Urban Police Rifle school and can also deploy either a Colt M-16A1 or LE 6920, but these tools do not replace the patrol shotgun, they are just another option depending on the situation...


Does anyone know what the version is that will be given to motorcycle officers? I was speaking with some of our motor officers, and they were mentioning how much they would like a long gun on the motor. They were more interested in rifles, but maybe a shotgun would work.

Our problem is that the gun would have to be fully concealed, which would limit it to the saddlebag now. I couldn't think of a decent rifle that would fit in that space.

1070http://remtek.com/arms/imi/galil/223/micro/micro2.gif

The motor units have an external locking rack that mounts over the saddlebag in view of God and everybody that carries a standard 870 police with an 18 inch barrel and a side folding syntheric pistol-grip stock... The city of Simi Vally wanted a completely concealed shoulder arm for their motor units that would fit inside their BMW hard saddle bags, and they selected the IMI micro galil in 5.56... It fit inside the hard bag nicely...

B

Iraqgunz
07-02-08, 15:57
I didn't realize that they were still using the Ithacas. Most of the LASO vehicles I saw had M870's in there.

It would seem that having the guns refinished, repalcing sights, etc...may have been worth considering. It's kind of funny though that they won't put more rifles out there to augment the deputies, especially in the some of the more rural areas.


Just curious... Like what???

B

a308garand
07-02-08, 20:53
In this day and age of getting away from shotguns and going to rifles again, why is the LASD and LAPD still working with 12 gauges?

I wouldn't get rid of them, but with the disadvantages they do have vs the advantages of M4's I would have figured they would have been a bit more progressive.

The 12 gauge shotgun is a very devastating urban weapon. Within 25 yards, you get pellets on target- any one of them can score a fight winning hit. Beyond that distance, you load slugs and have rifle-like hitting power with a 1 oz projectile. The shotgun is carried up front in the car because it is durable and easy to deploy.

Our Ithaca 37/87 shotguns have been carried a bunch but shot only a few time a year for function checks. Some older shotguns date back to the early 1960's, but are desirable due to short barrels. Compact and easy to employ within houses and other tight quarters.

The AR15/M4 platform has its own benifits......but I would never want to give up the 12 gauge for it. I carry both while working patrol, and understand the limits and capabilities of both weapons.

Jay Cunningham
07-02-08, 20:55
I have this feeling that demigod is going to make an appearance soon...

:p

a308garand
07-02-08, 20:59
That picture looks like it was taken from outside the new LAPD range at Granada Hills. Nice facility with the Simunition, live fire and classroom space :)
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1070&d=1215031545

BC520
07-02-08, 22:56
What disadvantage??? They are both tools, and they both have their place... Several of our patrol officers have also gone to a 40 hour Urban Police Rifle school and can also deploy either a Colt M-16A1 or LE 6920, but these tools do not replace the patrol shotgun, they are just another option depending on the situation...
B

They are a tool in the tool box, I agree. But in my opinion they do have disadvantages.

-Heavier recoil for female/smaller statured officers make it tougher to shoot. well.
-Less ammunition capacity that makes for very frequent reloads.
-Inability to know how the gun is patterned in pool guns, and thus possible liabilty in the use of buck.
-Limit of 25 yard range with buck.
-Awkward to change ammunition if you need slug vs Buck.
-Increased danger of overpenetration with slugs vs 5.56 bullets.
-Not precise accuracy with numerous barrels only equipped with bead front sights.
Don't get me wrong, I feel the shotgun is a tool that needs to stay in the tool box. Durable. Good to bust locks with if exigent circumstances exist. Slugs are nice for if you know you need penetration or if dealing with big game like bears. The ability to use bean bags, NFDD's, or gas loads are another. The use of buck to skip under a car to get a suspect is another. So it has good things to consider it for. But to me I would think it would be more for a secondary long gun. I never have liked the fact that I am accountable for 9 pellets that are spreading more and more every foot they travel, and I am usually unable to maintain a working knowledge of how that gun patterns since every squad has a different shotgun in it. Plus the issue of the wad flying out and striking innocents (Hostage) bothers me. Now give me a patrol rifle that is zeroed for me that I maintain, I'll compete against a co-worker with a shotgun anyday! I'm more confident I am able to engage quicker and at further distances than th shotgun. I've seen officers shoot better with rifles than with shotguns. I just think that there is a higher probability for success with rifles and less liability these days.

a308garand
07-02-08, 23:32
Here is where my own opinion differs:

-Heavier recoil for female/smaller statured officers make it tougher to shoot well.
Our agency uses a #4 pellet load that generates softer recoil energy and has a benefit of a tighter pattern than the classic #4 shot. The shotgun does dish out a kick, but proper stance and shouldering of the shotgun helps cut down the punishment - making faster follow up shots.

-Less ammunition capacity that makes for very frequent reloads.
Very true, but you are throwing at least 12 pellets on target for every pull of the trigger. Shoot/load/shoot/load as time allows.

-Inability to know how the gun is patterned in pool guns, and thus possible liabilty in the use of buck.
Also true, but the shotgun is not a precision tool. It is a fight stopper that throws a heavy amount of lead into the badguy. Yes the pattern is not exact to each pool gun, but it is close enough for the job.

-Limit of 25 yard range with buck.
If the fight is more than 25 yards, you should be using a rifle or slugs to begin with. I carry extra ammo with my shotgun just for this reason.

-Awkward to change ammunition if you need slug vs Buck.
Can be overcome with training. If you don't get comfortable with the shotgun, you leave it behind in the car and it can't help anyway. Train with the thing to overcome any weakness in operation.

-Increased danger of overpenetration with slugs vs 5.56 bullets.
Slugs do penetrate and that is a plus when your target is behind cover.

-Not precise accuracy with numerous barrels only equipped with bead front sights.
Earlier said, the shotgun is not for headshots on hostage takers, but a blunt force tool for throwing lead to put badguys down quickly. The bead sight gets the shot aimed well enough to take care of business.

I never have liked the fact that I am accountable for 9 pellets that are spreading more and more every foot they travel
Classic though process is the shot spreads one inch for every yard of travel....25 yards=25 inch pattern, however, the newer tactical loads (softer recoil) seem be be much tighter, last I saw was about 15-18 inches at 25 yards.
Yes we are accountable for every type of projectile thrown down range, use of deadly force is never a small matter and people can be killed.

I am not trying to put anyone down, I just strongly believe the shotgun is still a very important part of my available weaponry in the field. The rifle is a good tool in the box of tricks and so is the shotgun.

One thing that was not mentioned was cost. The bean counters always hold sway over how much stuff we can get. With one rifle at $900 and one shotgun at $350, you can see how much "bang" for the dollar gets us. Purchasing over 4000 shotguns is not going to happen all at once, the cost will be spread out over the year if not following years.

Rumor has it that the 870 shotgun will be issued with a Surefire lighted forend, sidesaddle ammo device and sling. All good things.

P.S. - LASD was using the Remington 870 shotgun until phasing it out for the Ithaca 37 in the early 1960's.......So we are just returning to were we were a few years ago :)

A picture of the Ithaca when it was still new...
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/lasd1969.jpg

sff70
07-03-08, 10:13
I wish them luck.

Shotguns can be very effective in the hands of a skilled user, but IMO rifles are a better all around tool for LE.

Better ergos
Less recoil = easier to shoot
Better sights = easier to achieve good hits
Ease of mounting red dot sights
Accuracy, acccuracy, accuracy
No having to switch ammo in the middle of a fight
No fumbling/dropping rounds when switching from buck to slug, or vice versa
No loading rounds backwards when reloading into the ejection port or into the tube magazine (having had to disassemble and reassemble shotguns due to this in a training environment, with experienced users, I'd hate to see it happen in a fight)
Self loading = fewer user induced stoppages (short stroking), easier 1 hand manipulation (what if Ed Mireles had an M4 instead of an 870?)
Body armor penetration
1 load for all distances = no switching of ammo in mid-fight



When LE with shotguns go up against bad guys with rifles, bad things happen. N. Hollywood and Miami are vivid examples of this.

Food for thought - which long gun do you want the officers responding to the active shooter at your kid's school to use? Shotguns with Buckshot, Shotguns with slug, or rifles?

BC520
07-03-08, 10:38
If it was 1-2 officers responding to an Active Killer at the school, I'd want the 1st couple guys with rifles. Hallways can be long distances and I prefer the precision of the rifle when many innocents may be around. But, I wholly recognize the use of the shotgun as a tool not to be taken from the toolbox, and if I have the luxury of a 3rd or 4th LEO I would love for one of them to bring a shotgun, especially if they happen to have TKP rounds for breaching if needed.

I don't want to give up the shotgun. A previous agency I worked for once took all the shotguns and turned them into Less Lethal ONLY guns. No lethal ammo in the squad. We also had a lot of bear in the area, and sometimes someone would hit one, wounding it. I would prefer 12 gauge slugs to try and put one down than a 55 gr pill. But the shotgun to me will sit in the car unless I need to go back for it or I have information that tells me I should bring it instead of the rifle. Otherwise it will be the rifle every time.

I find it ironic that in the very area that spawned an incident that inspired many agencies nationwide to begin to adopt carbines again instead of shotguns is not following the same logic.

I think we see things fairly similar in terms to the importance of the shotguns, just different opinions as to which is more valuable and when. :)

TOrrock
07-03-08, 10:59
I'd love to have a nice old Ithaca M37.

MadcapMagician
07-03-08, 12:04
I'd love to have a nice old Ithaca M37.

Yeah, where are all of the vintage Ithacas going? Knowing Kalifornia they'll probably be off to the crusher, then the chopper, then melted and dumped in the ocean.

Buck
07-03-08, 12:15
Yeah, where are all of the vintage Ithacas going? Knowing Kalifornia they'll probably be off to the crusher, then the chopper, then melted and dumped in the ocean.


I'd love to have a nice old Ithaca M37.

Well I know where one went... :rolleyes:

Craft714
07-10-08, 05:47
Forever known for the black and white patrol units and the ITHACAI SHOTGUNS.

mattjmcd
07-11-08, 19:07
I'd love to have a nice old Ithaca M37.

Dude, I don't know...

I've seen some of those old Ithacas. The ones I've seen were reeeaaaallllly tired and worn out. :eek:

SRG
07-13-08, 00:07
Someone mentioned upgrades to the shotguns. LAPD and LACSO should give this guy a call.

https://www.vangcomp.com/

I have witnessed remarkable patterns with his modified barrels. Definately worth a look. (Shameless plug. He's just down the road a piece from my shop and I have two guns with the VCS modification.)

Buck
07-13-08, 19:15
Someone mentioned upgrades to the shotguns. LAPD and LACSO should give this guy a call. www.vangcomp.com

Never heard of him... :rolleyes:

B

SRG
07-13-08, 22:27
Of course, you haven't.

Iraqgunz
07-14-08, 02:33
I had an 870 that I sent to Hans back about 10 years ago when he was still in California. The change in groups and accuracy was amazing. Looking to send (or drive) my 870 to him in September when I go on R/R.

tjcoker
07-14-08, 14:51
I got a chance to checkout our new shotguns. They will be the 870 Police Magnums. Knoxx Spec Ops recoil reducing stocks. Mesa 4 round side saddle. Surefire forend. Standard 18" barell with standard magazine tube. Slign, rifle sights and No Vangcomp, too bad :)

They should be good guns to run with. Soon we are possibly looking at allowing individual deputies to buy their own AR-15's... but that is still in the works. Deputies currently have the ability to attend Departmental training to be certified with the AR-15. They can then checkout the AR-15 from the unit armories and carry them in the field. We're coming along... not as fast as some other agencies. Our AR-15's are being fitted with Eotechs as time goes on.

Take the above with a grain of salt... I don't have a position like Buck on my department... but I do ask friends questions... :)