View Full Version : Donuts, Unpowdered
I have just started reloading in the past few months, so I'm still learning what everyone else already knows. I've done a search for an answer to my question and I haven't found it yet.
I have what I believe from descriptions I've read a problem with donuts forming after sizing. To make sure I'm using the correct term, what I have is a bulge at the junction of the case neck and shoulder.
I have sized Federal, Lake City, and Winchester .223 and 5.56 brass. Each piece is once fired. A donut, or at least a bulge if I'm using the wrong term, appears on every piece. I am using Hornady Custom Grade .223 dies.
I'm thinking I might have my die set up improperly, but I can't seem to get rid of the bulge.
How do I get rid of the bulge?
is the bulge on the inside or outside?
how far down are you sizing?
Not enough lube on the case perhaps.
With your press fully to the top of the stroke is your die touching the shell plate or is there a ton of resistance at the top of the stroke?
I've only had the dreaded donut when I dabbled in bushing dies. A pic might help out.
There really isn't any resistance until I raise the ram and the case is pulled out of the die. I expected more resistance on sizing, but since I have no prior experience, I have nothing to compare it to.
The shell holder doesn't touch the die. I have it adjusted per the instructions (screw in until it touches the shell holder, then back out).
I'll try to get a pic up after work today.
Lube? What lube are you using and what brand of die?.
Do you have the vent hole covered up by your decaper pin/neck sizer?
I'm using One Shot for lube. The dies are Hornady Custom Grade .223 dies
From the thread title I thought we going to be discussing food.
x2 on the case lube for a starter.
Try backing off the die a 1/4". If there is no bulge, keep turning die down 1/3 of a turn and repeat process until you get your donut. Back off until you don't. Then measure your case all around for proper spec and sizing. As you do this in stages, pay attention to where the lube will leave a "ring". This is where the die starts to meet and push back the shoulder. Perfectly set, that lube ring will be right at the line where shoulder meets case body.
I suspect you either have a bad die or a lube problem.
From the thread title I thought we going to be discussing food.
x2 on the case lube for a starter.
Try backing off the die a 1/4". If there is no bulge, keep turning die down 1/3 of a turn and repeat process until you get your donut. Back off until you don't. Then measure your case all around for proper spec and sizing. As you do this in stages, pay attention to where the lube will leave a "ring". This is where the die starts to meet and push back the shoulder. Perfectly set, that lube ring will be right at the line where shoulder meets case body.
I suspect you either have a bad die or a lube problem.
I'll order some different lube. The only thing my LGS carries is the One Shot. I've heard bad things about the one shot, but thought since there wasn't much resistance it was ok.
I'll also reset my dies. Readjusting should have been common sense, but with my experience level anything would have been a shot in the dark. Thanks guys
With the one shot are you letting the alcohol/carrier of the lube burn off? Basicly letting the case sit for 10 min or so after spraying, after that junk burns off the cases will be slicker with only the lube left behind.
Too much lube and too little lube can be a culprit.
You didn't say what kind of press you have, but you wouldn't necessarily feel a lot of resistance on such a small case. Something like a rockcrusher has so much leverage that you'd never feel a slight imperfection unless you were highly tuned to the feel of your process. Which you have already admitted you are not.
This is a good learning moment here, don't sweat it. You'll be better in the long run. At least you aren't ruining .338 lapua cases.
Get some Dillon Case Lube. This is a must whether or not it's the source of your problem.
I'm curious to see the pics. Sounds like the case is being crushed inside of the die, which is physically impossible. I guess crazier things have happened though...
x12 on the Dillon case lube. Way cleaner than the roll-on crap.
Get some Dillon Case Lube. This is a must whether or not it's the source of your problem.
I've actually seen where you and others have recommended this before. Some people are just sloooow. As I said I figured it was all working out since there wasn't much resistance, no stuck cases, and no squeeking as some have described. I was planning on ordering a super swager from Dillon anway so I'll just add that to the list. Much appreciated
Get some Dillon Case Lube. This is a must whether or not it's the source of your problem.
This is the recommendation I would have made for years, but my new favorite lube for rifle cases is Hornady Unique.
I load a lot of .308, 30-06 & 8mm. I resize, measure and trim the brass to length each and every time I reload.
You have to apply the Hornady Unique to each case by hand, but I inspect each case while prepping them anyway. With the spray on Dillon Case Lube I would get the occasional dent in a resized case from hydraulics if I did not wait long enough for the lube to completely dry. Since I switched to the Hornady lube I have not seen one dented case. The time I spend on prepping 100 cases is an even wash.
For spray on case lube, I recommend Dillon. If you don't mind applying case lube by hand, I recommend the Hornady Unique. No matter which lube you use, it does not hurt to put a small amount on a Q-Tip and put it inside the edge of a case mouth to lightly lube the expander ball. This will decrease the amount of resistance you feel when you push the reloader handle to withdraw the case from the resizing die during the return stroke. I find I have to do this one out of every 20-30 cases.
The bulge you are seeing at the junction of the case neck and shoulder may be caused by not having the resizing die adjusted far enough down to fully resize the case neck. If you are getting proper shoulder set back at the datum line when you resize, then it could be something else.
rcoodyar15
01-28-15, 18:07
hard to say what is happening without pics.
lube: I use imperial sizing wax very lightly. just apply a little to your fingertips and rub it on the case. you can often lube every second or third case on .223 even full length resizing.
I also use the mika powdered neck lube. just keep a neck brush with a light coat on it and push the case down over the brush.
What I really suspect is happening is you don't have the expander ball properly located in the die and it is pushing the neck in on your downstroke. Take the stem out of the die and look at the deprimer pin and expander ball. Look at the diagram in the literature that came with the die. The location of the expander ball is very important.
Without pictures it is hard to say for sure what you have, though if you do have the "donut" it will look something like this inside:
31349
On the outside you will only see a slight ring on the neck close to where it meets the shoulder.
MikeDawg46L
01-28-15, 21:42
hard to say what is happening without pics.
lube: I use imperial sizing wax very lightly. just apply a little to your fingertips and rub it on the case. you can often lube every second or third case on .223 even full length resizing.
I also use the mika powdered neck lube. just keep a neck brush with a light coat on it and push the case down over the brush.
What I really suspect is happening is you don't have the expander ball properly located in the die and it is pushing the neck in on your downstroke. Take the stem out of the die and look at the deprimer pin and expander ball. Look at the diagram in the literature that came with the die. The location of the expander ball is very important.
The mouth expander/decapping pin was my guess as well. If it is not going perfectly into the center of the case mouth, it can push the neck down beyond the shoulder causing a bulge. Remove the decapper/expander pin and give it a go.
I also use the Hornady dies and the instructions say to have the shell holder touching the bottom the die. If you don't follow these directions then you will not bump the shoulder back far enough and will run into loaded rounds that may cause the bolt to not fully close on a new mag. It sounds like you watched the vid on setting up pistol dies and tried to use the same procedure on these rifle dies. Get a case gauge to verify final alignment of the die. That little tool is a must have anyway.
Lastly, did you thoroughly clean the dies before starting the setup? Those things are caked with grease just like a new gun and must be cleaned really well. I actually use One Shot dry lube to clean my dies and presses but I don't use it or the other One Shot product for case lube. I make my own case lube with 16oz of 91% alcohol and 4oz pure liquid lanolin. It works great on 5.56 brass and on some 270 brass I just did for my pops for his new hunting rifle.
Tapatalk'd
I can't seem to get the pics to upload. However, it does seem that I've got a lot going wrong. I definetly have to readjust my die. Also, my decapping pin is in fact off center. I'll be shit-canning that anyway as my Lee Universal decapper just came in.
I've got a Wilson Case Gauge, and everything seems to fit properly in it, but who knows where the shoulder is coming in contact. I saw a case gauge someone had posted about that had a cut out on one side so you could see what exactly was going on. I just can't remember the name. At any rate, I've definetly got some work to do this weekend on my set up.
I can't seem to get the pics to upload. However, it does seem that I've got a lot going wrong. I definetly have to readjust my die. Also, my decapping pin is in fact off center. I'll be shit-canning that anyway as my Lee Universal decapper just came in.
I've got a Wilson Case Gauge, and everything seems to fit properly in it, but who knows where the shoulder is coming in contact. I saw a case gauge someone had posted about that had a cut out on one side so you could see what exactly was going on. I just can't remember the name. At any rate, I've definetly got some work to do this weekend on my set up.
http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-2.htm
http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-2.htm
That's it! Thank you!
http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-2.htm
That is a slick looking piece of kit. I will definitely have to order one and try it out.
That is a slick looking piece of kit. I will definitely have to order one and try it out.
Been using one for 300blk and love it, very easy to confirm issues with reformed 556 brass.
Been using one for 300blk and love it, very easy to confirm issues with reformed 556 brass.
Probably nice for that, but regular .223 loading shouldn't require it.
MikeDawg46L
01-29-15, 13:46
Wrong thread replied to
...I make my own case lube with 16oz of 91% alcohol and 4oz pure liquid lanolin. It works great on 5.56 brass and on some 270 brass I just did for my pops for his new hunting rifle.
+1 on this tip. Made some of this up about a year ago and have lubed literally thousands of cases. Very economical. I made enough to fill an empty 1.5 liter whiskey bottle and have not even used half the bottle (lasts ALOT longer than the whiskey). Mr Dawg was correct in specifying the 91% Isopropyl Alcohol and the liquid lanolin. The ratio to use is 75% alcohol and 25% liquid lanolin. Shake the mixture well and put some in a decent spray bottle. The mixture will slightly separate when sitting so always shake the spray bottle well before using. Toss all the brass into a suitably sized plastic container and give it 1 or 2 sprays. Mix your brass by hand to coat it all and let the alcohol evaporate (it won't take long). What is left is a thin distribution of the lanolin. It doesn't take much at all to lube a lot of brass. It's a natural non petroleum lube and as a side benefit, it's actually good for your skin.
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