Sebastian Junger Knows Why Young Men Go To War

[jdavis6576]

As someone who never served I can't offer a BTDT critique but I found this article very interesting. Thoughts?


https://medium.com/war-is-boring/sebastian-junger-knows-why-young-men-go-to-war-f163804cbf6

[Cincinnatus]

Author is reiterating with a modern twist what Stephen Crane explored in Red Badge of Courage.

I appreciate the insights into the absurdity of the "smelly little orthodoxies," --Orwell's phrase--which the Left uses to deconstruct and assault masculinity and anything connected to it.
This really resonates with all the current, liberal, bashing of American Sniper from a typically leftist, moon-bat whacko world-view. (Junger is not a leftist; he is talking ABOUT leftists in academia.)
Junger seems to be able to critique the Left's ideological blinders and agenda without being either outside or inside of it.
You could apply some of the same insights to the Leftist assault on football and anything else masculine.

[Averageman]

I'm pretty sure I decided to join the Military when I was about six, something about watching my Dad spit shining six pairs of jump boots every Sunday morning when he was with us and not deployed.
It was the modern version of the right of passage in our family. I might have laid cement 20 floors up before joining the Army, but I wasn't a Man until I did.

[Endur]

I appreciate the insights into the absurdity of the "smelly little orthodoxies," --Orwell's phrase--which the Left uses to deconstruct and assault masculinity and anything connected to it.
This really resonates with all the current, liberal, bashing of American Sniper from a typically leftist, moon-bat whacko world-view. (Junger is not a leftist; he is talking ABOUT leftists in academia.)
Junger seems to be able to critique the Left's ideological blinders and agenda without being either outside or inside of it.
You could apply some of the same insights to the Leftist assault on football and anything else masculine.

Definitely some good insights about males and what it means to be masculine. We are definitely in a society that enjoys male bashing and emasculating men. We are already starting to experience the repercussions of it. Just one piece of the pie with what is wrong with our society. It is a shame.

[Sensei]

Here is my problem with the piece:



He doesn’t see the sense in repeating those experiences. But that won’t stop millions of other young males from going to war to find out for themselves. For many, war is a shortcut to adulthood. It’s a clear rite of passage in a society that’s increasingly confusing, complicated and contradictory.


The actual number of men who "go to war" is actually very small and nothing close to the millions that Junger describes. Only about 40% of service members have ever deployed to a combat theater and the vast majority who do will not fire their weapon in aggression or be attacked. That is because about 80% of military jobs are combat service and support. In fact, it is an extreme minority of soldiers who see actual combat, but those who do (most with a combat arms MOS) tend to see it again, and again, and again.

So, it seems that the vast majority of Americans complete the crucible of manhood by playing Call of Duty, or by watching Lone Survivor, American Sniper, Zero Dark Thirty, et al.

[SteyrAUG]

So, it seems that the vast majority of Americans complete the crucible of manhood by playing Call of Duty, or by watching Lone Survivor, American Sniper, Zero Dark Thirty, et al.

I found something far more challenging. Paying my mortgage, all my bills and otherwise paying my own way. Ever since I got my first crappy apartment I considered myself a man. I didn't need to get shot at, I didn't need to shoot at anybody.

[Moose-Knuckle]

And then there is this thing called fatherhood . . .

[Sensei]

I found something far more challenging. Paying my mortgage, all my bills and otherwise paying my own way. Ever since I got my first crappy apartment I considered myself a man. I didn't need to get shot at, I didn't need to shoot at anybody.

Like that is any comparison to crushing your enemy on the field of battle, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women and children.

[C-grunt]

I could see war being a part of the human existence. My parents never let me have toy guns when I was young and limited any violent television but they will tell you that I chewed my toast into gun shapes since I was 4. Later on they caved and I had toy guns as long as I can remember and played war with my friends. Ive always wanted to be in the military since I was a young child. Both grandfathers were in WW2 and my uncle was in Vietnam.

I left for Basic two weeks after graduating high school and invaded Iraq 6 months after graduating Basic. I know I came back home a much more mature person than I was a year earlier.

[Crow Hunter]

Like that is any comparison to crushing your enemy on the field of battle, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the laminations of their women and children.

I think you meant lamentation not the gluing together of the women and children, Ahnald.
;)

ETA:

I am still not a "man" at 41. I can in no way compare to my Father, the person I judge against.

However, I am not a leech on society. That is the best I can do.

[ramairthree]

Here is my problem with the piece:



The actual number of men who "go to war" is actually very small and nothing close to the millions that Junger describes. Only about 40% of service members have ever deployed to a combat theater and the vast majority who do will not fire their weapon in aggression or be attacked. That is because about 80% of military jobs are combat service and support. In fact, it is an extreme minority of soldiers who see actual combat, but those who do (most with a combat arms MOS) tend to see it again, and again, and again.

So, it seems that the vast majority of Americans complete the crucible of manhood by playing Call of Duty, or by watching Lone Survivor, American Sniper, Zero Dark Thirty, et al.

Very true.

There is some intrinsic risk in just being in a combat zone. As much as I have busted on Fobbits guys have been in buildings that get hit by mortars, got rocketed, etc. even though they never left the wire. Hell, I know of 5 guys from a prestigious aviation unit that had never been wounded on ops that were living out their homoerotic Top Gun fantasy playing volleyball at the boardwalk of a large base that got wounded by indirect fire.

As for experiences,

Or they get high speed training from the best, that they write a check out to,
set their gun up exactly like so and so,
buy a very expensive set up,
then talk shit on the internet that there are a ton of SOF combat vets that are not real gun guys,
have not been to as much training as them, set their guns up wrong,
don't buy quality kit like they do,
etc.

Paying your bills and being a good American is respectable.

But in the halls of manhood,
you have either passed a SOF pipeline or you have not,
you have either deployed to combat or you have not,
and
you have either been shot at up closes and personal and shot back or you have not.
If have personally gone from your nice, comfortable safe spot to get exposed to fire to come to the aid of your brother,
it puts the opinions of those that are 0 for 3 of the above into perspective.

[Doc Safari]

I found something far more challenging. Paying my mortgage, all my bills and otherwise paying my own way. Ever since I got my first crappy apartment I considered myself a man. I didn't need to get shot at, I didn't need to shoot at anybody.

I have to concur. I worked my ass off to get a college degree. I had a chance to join Air Force ROTC but I knew I didn't want to "see the world" like a military career would have forced me to do. I'd be willing to bet a career in the Air Force would have been less stressful and would have required less work on my part than getting a Bachelor's Degree and literally starting at the bottom of rinky-dink industries to get enough experience to matter over the following years.

[MountainRaven]

Very true.

There is some intrinsic risk in just being in a combat zone. As much as I have busted on Fobbits guys have been in buildings that get hit by mortars, got rocketed, etc. even though they never left the wire. Hell, I know of 5 guys from a prestigious aviation unit that had never been wounded on ops that were living out their homoerotic Top Gun fantasy playing volleyball at the boardwalk of a large base that got wounded by indirect fire.

As for experiences,

Or they get high speed training from the best, that they write a check out to,
set their gun up exactly like so and so,
buy a very expensive set up,
then talk shit on the internet that there are a ton of SOF combat vets that are not real gun guys,
have not been to as much training as them, set their guns up wrong,
don't buy quality kit like they do,
etc.

Paying your bills and being a good American is respectable.

But in the halls of manhood,
you have either passed a SOF pipeline or you have not,
you have either deployed to combat or you have not,
and
you have either been shot at up closes and personal and shot back or you have not.
If have personally gone from your nice, comfortable safe spot to get exposed to fire to come to the aid of your brother,
it puts the opinions of those that are 0 for 3 of the above into perspective.

In the halls of manhood....

There are those who have made it to Delta and DEVGRU and CAG and SEAL Team Six and those who haven't.
There are those who have dedicated their lives to quiet, celebate contemplation of God and those who haven't.
There are those who have joined the Cryps and those who haven't.
Those who have killed cops and those who haven't.
Those who have done time and those who haven't.
Those who have had a threesome with twins and those who haven't.

There is always somebody who can look down their nose at you.

The better method, "What man is a man who does not make the world better?"

[jc000]

You could apply some of the same insights to the Leftist assault on football and anything else masculine.

Football is masculine?

[SOW_0331]

I find it odd that the only ones who are insisting that going to war and being a man are the ones who didn't, and are desperately seeking to draw parallels elsewhere. And while I certainly don't think repeated combat tours makes one a man, I don't see those other examples given as being the end all rights of passage either.

You paid your bills on time? Me too, on $1200 a month with a young wife and our child on the way, and I spent 23 out of 30 days a month gone training.

You became a father? So did I and most of the married NCOs I deployed with. Only we had to do that while on rigorous training schedules, watching our children grow up through rare pictures in the even more rare mail deliveries, the time-delayed voices on the Sat-Phone, and with wives begging us to stay home.

Those aren't crucibles of manhood, they're responsibilities. That one would seek some sort of runner-up recognition for doing what we're supposed to do is an obvious distraction method and one that belittles the sacrifice made to do ALL of the same things you think is the equivalent, while honoring a sense of responsibility in whatever sense to something greater than ones self.

I disagree with Junger, I never met a man who wore the uniform I did that felt he was fast tracking his way to manhood. Particularly not in the units I busted my balls to get to with a guaranteed combat rotation as the reward on the other side. That self-serving hero, manly man bullshit all goes out the window when you're preparing your guys for an invasion plan that is expecting an initial 50% casualty rate against a well disciplined and experienced dug in enemy. Standing in line for two hours for the five minute phone call to your wife to say "I can't tell you where I'm going, but I'll call you as soon as I can. Please don't cry, I know you'll be the most amazing mother to our little girl, and I love you. I'll call you when I can". And that's not the whole military, not half or even a third, it's the same small groups going over and over until our wives and children don't even have to ask anymore. And not once did I or anyone I know think it was an easy way to become adults or men. We did it because we weren't ready to send the boyish young faces we saw waiting to replace our dead friends back into the fray without an able and experienced core of leadership to guide them through. And because we weren't going to watch more Americans die and be reported as simple numbers and statistics in news blurbs in between our favorite sitcoms. It didn't have shit to do with country or flag or manhood or "living as servants of God". It was damn near selfish that I would have rather died and left my family to grow on their own than I would have sent a bunch of 18 year old kids to fight an enemy that has carved their teeth in battle for three decades.

[MountainRaven]

"Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect.
"But there is no reward at all for doing what other people expect of you, and to do so is not merely difficult, but impossible. It is easier to deal with a footpad than it is with the leech who wants "just a few minutes of your time, please—this won't take long." Time is your total capital, and the minutes of your life are painfully few. If you allow yourself to fall into the vice of agreeing to such requests, they quickly snowball to the point where these parasites will use up 100 percent of your time—and squawk for more!
"So learn to say No—and to be rude about it when necessary. Otherwise you will not have time to carry out your duty, or to do your own work, and certainly no time for love and happiness. The termites will nibble away your life and leave none of it for you.
"(This rule does not mean that you must not do a favor for a friend, or even a stranger. But let the choice be yours. Don't do it because it is "expected" of you.)"
-Robert Heinlein

[Endur]

I find it odd that the only ones who are insisting that going to war and being a man are the ones who didn't, and are desperately seeking to draw parallels elsewhere. And while I certainly don't think repeated combat tours makes one a man, I don't see those other examples given as being the end all rights of passage either.

You paid your bills on time? Me too, on $1200 a month with a young wife and our child on the way, and I spent 23 out of 30 days a month gone training.

You became a father? So did I and most of the married NCOs I deployed with. Only we had to do that while on rigorous training schedules, watching our children grow up through rare pictures in the even more rare mail deliveries, the time-delayed voices on the Sat-Phone, and with wives begging us to stay home.

Those aren't crucibles of manhood, they're responsibilities. That one would seek some sort of runner-up recognition for doing what we're supposed to do is an obvious distraction method and one that belittles the sacrifice made to do ALL of the same things you think is the equivalent, while honoring a sense of responsibility in whatever sense to something greater than ones self.

I disagree with Junger, I never met a man who wore the uniform I did that felt he was fast tracking his way to manhood. Particularly not in the units I busted my balls to get to with a guaranteed combat rotation as the reward on the other side. That self-serving hero, manly man bullshit all goes out the window when you're preparing your guys for an invasion plan that is expecting an initial 50% casualty rate against a well disciplined and experienced dug in enemy. Standing in line for two hours for the five minute phone call to your wife to say "I can't tell you where I'm going, but I'll call you as soon as I can. Please don't cry, I know you'll be the most amazing mother to our little girl, and I love you. I'll call you when I can". And that's not the whole military, not half or even a third, it's the same small groups going over and over until our wives and children don't even have to ask anymore. And not once did I or anyone I know think it was an easy way to become adults or men. We did it because we weren't ready to send the boyish young faces we saw waiting to replace our dead friends back into the fray without an able and experienced core of leadership to guide them through. And because we weren't going to watch more Americans die and be reported as simple numbers and statistics in news blurbs in between our favorite sitcoms. It didn't have shit to do with country or flag or manhood or "living as servants of God". It was damn near selfish that I would have rather died and left my family to grow on their own than I would have sent a bunch of 18 year old kids to fight an enemy that has carved their teeth in battle for three decades.

.

I don't know your military history, in which I am sure is more extensive than mine, but thank you for writing what was on my mind and I am sure others. Some will take it harshly though but sometimes the truth hurts. Just goes to show how skewed the idea of masculinity is; the part of the article I liked.

I know I did not enlist to make myself a man, I did it for a combination of things and I would consider it a step into manhood but definitely not a fast track or an absolute. I do not think one event makes you a man but a series of them and how you conduct & carry yourself through them is the path; a path I do not think ever ends really.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Football is masculine?

Not to rugby players . . .

[wildcard600]

Who else os going to protect the oligarch's interests ?

[Endur]

Who else os going to protect the oligarch's interests ?

Seriously? No one enlists with the notion, idea, or ambitions to do the dirty work of tyrants. If someone did not choose to serve, there would be no one too when the cause is truly just. There would be nothing but a bunch of people sitting around contemplating what-if's and would-do's. It is insulting to insinuate such.

[wildcard600]

Seriously? No one enlists with the notion, idea, or ambitions to do the dirty work of tyrants. If someone did not choose to serve, there would be no one too when the cause is truly just. There would be nothing but a bunch of people sitting around contemplating what-if's and would-do's. It is insulting to insinuate such.

Sorry that you took it that way. that is not what i meant.

If the marionettes were aware that they were attached to the wires there would not be much of a show, would there ?

[26 Inf]

Sorry that you took it that way. that is not what i meant.

If the marionettes were aware that they were attached to the wires there would not be much of a show, would there ?

Wildcard, I'd be surprised if he doesn't see that as insulting.

One of the problems that I do see is in total agreement with what I believe is your view - the United States foreign policy for many decades has been totally directed toward the self-interest of the industrial complex. In that regard, yes, many well-meaning young men and women, have fought wars and conflicts that didn't need to be fought, many of them simply because of their Patriotism. Because of that, deriding the noble sacrifices many of them have made cheapens us as human beings.

JFK was right in in one respect 'ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country' and our Veterans have done just that IMHO.

In terms of manhood, which is where this thread has morphed, once again my, VHO, if you think any one particular act or attribute makes you a man, and proclaim so, you are probably mistaken. Real men are found in pulpits, in factories, in shoe stores, in schools, in the military, everywhere. Manhood isn't a simple act, it is a person's actions that permeate their life, one of those actions, once again, IMVHO, is sacrifice to a greater purpose than one's self.

[ramairthree]

Let's see.

There is a multi-billion dollar industry of training, clothing, equipment, gear, guns, games, books, movies, etc. with people paying premiums on what camo to buy based on who uses it.

There are internet forums full of people who list what former operator they paid to train with on their sig line.

There is simply some instinct that get's men interested in guns, martial arts, elite units, etc. Since most will not go through that forging process a market has developed for it to be "bought." What ever that drive or instinct is, it is enough to full multiple industries. Without even counting football and multiple other sports that are just a thin, superficial outlet for that drive.

If you have not experienced the full forging of that process,
and are convinced you have missed nothing,
there is no way you understand what you have missed. The guys that are 1, 2, or 3 for three used to be 0 for 3 guys. We know your perspective and have an opinion on it from experience.

It is like trying to explain what it is like to someone what the birth of your children meant while they tell you they are never having kids or getting married and how that is not important to them.

[SteyrAUG]

I find it odd that the only ones who are insisting that going to war and being a man are the ones who didn't, and are desperately seeking to draw parallels elsewhere. And while I certainly don't think repeated combat tours makes one a man, I don't see those other examples given as being the end all rights of passage either.

You paid your bills on time? Me too, on $1200 a month with a young wife and our child on the way, and I spent 23 out of 30 days a month gone training.

Those aren't crucibles of manhood, they're responsibilities. That one would seek some sort of runner-up recognition for doing what we're supposed to do is an obvious distraction method and one that belittles the sacrifice made to do ALL of the same things you think is the equivalent, while honoring a sense of responsibility in whatever sense to something greater than ones self.


I find it odd that my opinion that "being accountable to oneself" if more than enough challenge (or crucible) for me is taken by you as some kind of affront to those who have gone to war. Because I don't remember saying, or even thinking, that.

I think you are reading into things just a bit.

[Honu]

most of my buds are like me in there early 50s or late 40s
one of them was a spec ops dude who was in the heat of it etc...

he said it best when he looked back at his life I have great kids and love them and did my best
really it was not his war career or battles he was in or experiences that shaped him they were just things along the journey really

once most folks step away from there life and are on the downhill side of things can look back and see what was the high point

IMHO men are not made by situations but by your own internal self and what you think a man is ?

to some its working a hard core job in a really tough career to some it might be the military to some its having a family etc...


interesting read though I am sure going to war makes you grow up really really really quick and having had some near death experiences including one where the doc said thats it all we can do say your goodbyes you have a few hours left surely made me realize things about life
I could die in the jungles of Guatemala or on the battlefield and sure those last moments if you make them out changes you for life if anything it made me live life more for the moment and more reckless cause you then realize how fragile it is and that it can happen to you at a young age

to me I see the super bowl stuff going on and lots of friends from school I had who seem to be the same as they were in HS and football seems to be there life ? kinda silly in my eyes and in my eyes they are still just HS kids in many senses and quite a few of them are vets ?
long after the war is over for them they are back to living it with most of them did not make them who they are but was part of shaping them along the way as were other things in there life

again all our perspectives are different as to what makes us

I do think being in combat for sure %100 changes you and gives you experiences nobody can relate to
but so do many things some of us have done along the way

I think the writer since its what he is doing currently is more effected and when he is 20 years older out of that and has lived more might realize its just a part of the journey to becoming a man if one wants to say that so combat or hard job or circumstances are all internal things we deal with that make us :)

[ABNAK]

I am a veteran, not a Veteran. I've served but was fortunate enough to not have been in combat. I threw my hat in the ring and got lucky. I'm not naive enough to think there's anything "cool" or "romantic" about combat. It's something that, unfortunately, has to be done sometimes. That is why I always defer to those who have seen the elephant, the Veterans I referenced earlier. I will always take a second seat to them and I have zero problem with that; they've BTDT and I haven't. Did it make them "men"? I think it contributed to it, namely the manner in which they faced the challenge. Does not having been in combat (or the military in general) mean you're not a real man? Nah, I don't think so......but there is an element of manhood/lifetime experiences that combat vets hold the rest of us do not, and I'm sure it isn't always a good one from their perspective but it hopefully makes them stronger. It doesn't make you a man, it is an enhancement to your life experience and strengthens your "manhood" (if you will).

[Endur]

Sorry that you took it that way. that is not what i meant.

If the marionettes were aware that they were attached to the wires there would not be much of a show, would there ?

It is alright, I understand what you are getting at. Trust me, I am pissed that we are used as pawns on a chess board.