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Is there anything available on the commercial market that is better than the military sleep system based on cost, weight, performance? You can get a MSS on Amazon for like a 100 bucks but they are heavy and don't compress well. It's a bonus that They are cheap and I like the 3 bags and bivy setup. Anything available on the commercial market that is lighter more compressible but isn't going to cost 5 times more?
Kyle Defoor has some videos on his YouTube channel about what he's found out to work best. He runs the hell out of his outdoor gear. I got an outdoor research bivy bag on his recommendation and I love it.
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Ouroborous
02-09-15, 20:29
It's what I use and like you said they work well and are fairly cheap. There are absolutely better, lighter options out there but none of them are gonna be anywhere near the price point of an MSS.
If compression is an issue, check out kifaru's compression stuff sacks—they work soo well they can literally take the MSS down to half it's size.
Kyle Defoor has some videos on his YouTube channel about what he's found out to work best. He runs the hell out of his outdoor gear. I got an outdoor research bivy bag on his recommendation and I love it.
Do you have a link for this? I looked around, but didn't yield any results for Defoor talking sleep gear.
For the maximum warmth to weight ratio, high quality down (800 fill) is the way to go. It also is the most expensive warmth to $$$ ratio. When I was considering hitting the Appalachian trail in a semi-minimalist approach I wanted to pack an 800 fill 10-15F down bag with a back country shelter supported by trekking poles, such as the Black Diamond Mega or Beta, or a bivvy shelter. Weight (I'm tall, so I would need a long bag and bivvy) would be around 4 lbs, but cost would be north of $700. Packed size would be very manageable in a smaller bag. Down, however, is not worth squat if it gets wet. If you plan to camp out in dry or arctic conditions, down and a bivvy are realistic. In monsoon conditions I would look for a synthetic bag, and some kind of tent over a bivvy. Weight then gets heavier, packability is less (bulkier than down). Cost may be a bit less, but still well past the $100 point.
Edited for price estimate
Do you have a link for this? I looked around, but didn't yield any results for Defoor talking sleep gear.
Damn. It looks like his gear reviews are gone now. He had a lot of good reviews of outdoors gear and I've followed a lot of his advice. He hasn't steered me wrong yet.
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My sleep system :
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It's about 5-7 lbs total including the dry compression sack for my sleep system and shelter. I can throw the sack in a lake if I want and not have to worry about it getting wet. My pad is an insulated inflatable mat that doesn't require a pump. It's absolutely awesome and very comfortable. I only use synthetic since I'll soak a down bag. Down anything always make me sweat to much for some reason. My bag is like a feather and very warm but I sleep hot anyways. The bivy is solid gore tex so it can pretty much handle a tsunami. If the weather is good it has a zippered mesh to sleep exposed and keep the creepy crawlies out. It packs down super small and light and handles moisture well. I can't ask for much more. You can get the same bivy with a bow for the head area if you want to have it open inside. It has loops to tie it down if you want to as well as a loop over the head area to prop it up without a bow if you want.
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Better and cheaper are mutually exclusive terms when it comes to sleep systems. Many of the military guys with the special budgets swear by Wiggy's bags.
http://wiggys.com/category.cfm?Category=41&CFID=2051325&CFTOKEN=79353212
sevenhelmet
02-10-15, 09:29
Thanks for posting the Wiggy's link. I'm trying to find a good backpacking bag, but every recommendation I've gotten so far is for bags in the $6-700 range. Nice to see there are some options out there that won't break the bank.
Thanks for the replies. Any other options out there? The wiggys looks like a good alternative although their web page and system is a little confusing. Best bet may be to grab an MSS off ebay for 90 bucks.
rcoodyar15
02-11-15, 09:09
Better and cheaper are mutually exclusive terms when it comes to sleep systems. Many of the military guys with the special budgets swear by Wiggy's bags.
http://wiggys.com/category.cfm?Category=41&CFID=2051325&CFTOKEN=79353212
I am with you Wiggy's all the way
FTRSS system. Same as the military only better. Pick your temp.
http://wiggys.com/category.cfm?Category=41
for a bivy I picked this. http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=52
I am with you Wiggy's all the way
FTRSS system. Same as the military only better. Pick your temp.
http://wiggys.com/category.cfm?Category=41
for a bivy I picked this. http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=52
Wiggys didn't get great reviews from the camping/backpacking folks. I'm not looking to spend 700 dollars for a mountain hardwear etc.. Setup.
So with that said is the wiggys at $350 exponentially better than MSS bought off ebay for 89 dollars.
rcoodyar15
02-11-15, 10:40
Wiggys didn't get great reviews from the camping/backpacking folks. I'm not looking to spend 700 dollars for a mountain hardwear etc.. Setup.
So with that said is the wiggys at $350 exponentially better than MSS bought off ebay for 89 dollars.
try these reviews
http://www.survivalcommonsense.com/survival-gear-review-wiggys-thule-sleeping-bagfeed/
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/4833-Wiggy-s-sleeping-bags
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3wA5Wrcmc&feature=player_detailpage
USMC_Anglico
02-11-15, 12:13
The MSS is functional but heavy/bulky for what it is. The newer foliage/UCP camo system is lighter/packs smaller than the old black/green/woodland system.
I have been issued both and what I use is a North Face synthetic bag and the bivy cover if needed otherwise a Kifaru woobie. Much lighter and better insulation.
If you are going to be rucking this around, spend some more $ and save the weight. For keeping in a home or vehicle it's fine.
I've got the MSS and a wiggy's ultralight: http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=273.
They both sleep very warm. The wiggy's 0 degree is a comfort rating. The 0 degree rating on the MSS black bag is (I think) a "you'll survive for 4 hours" rating. The comfort rating is probably closer to 30 for me with a ground pad and bivy. I slept in the wiggy's in a bivy with ground pad down to 13 degrees and ended up unzipping it a bit to cool off. The wiggy's bag isn't too heavy for its rating my main complaint is the size. It doesn't compress much besides that I like the wiggy's bag quite a bit.
The main plus of the MSS is you get the option of green only, black only or both. So for a dirt cheap price you get a bivy and three temp ranges of comfort.
Horned Toad
02-11-15, 20:10
Is there anything available on the commercial market that is better than the military sleep system based on cost, weight, performance? You can get a MSS on Amazon for like a 100 bucks but they are heavy and don't compress well. It's a bonus that They are cheap and I like the 3 bags and bivy setup. Anything available on the commercial market that is lighter more compressible but isn't going to cost 5 times more?
What kind of field use will this see. Once I thought I still needed extra heavy duty everything, I don't. I take care of my stuff and know its pros and cons
If a humid environment I would go with Kifaru synthetics
Where its dry I run down, I like the options with Feathered Friends over Western Mountaineering
My 20 degree bag weighs 2 pounds with a water proof stuff sack and stuffs down to about loaf of bread size, its about 4 years old and stuff is now a tad lighter still
When I was in I used the good old "woobie" poncho liner for most of the year. I bought one of the self inflating sleeping pads and used that and my poncho to sleep in weather down to 30 degrees. All three pieces rolled up nice and weren't heavy. As far as use, i used the poncho liner most days, the sleeping pad under me in spring and fall. The poncho was either used as a shelter or as a bivy roll depending on temperature. There were many days i woke up with frost on the poncho and i slept warm. I also kept a stocking cap too for wear on cold days. Anything colder than 28-30 degrees and i used an actual sleeping bag instead of a poncho liner.
Horned Toad
02-20-15, 20:26
When I was in I used the good old "woobie" poncho liner for most of the year. I bought one of the self inflating sleeping pads and used that and my poncho to sleep in weather down to 30 degrees. All three pieces rolled up nice and weren't heavy. As far as use, i used the poncho liner most days, the sleeping pad under me in spring and fall. The poncho was either used as a shelter or as a bivy roll depending on temperature. There were many days i woke up with frost on the poncho and i slept warm. I also kept a stocking cap too for wear on cold days. Anything colder than 28-30 degrees and i used an actual sleeping bag instead of a poncho liner.
Been there done that on all of the above. It took me a while to realize that I don't need mil spec gear. A new issue poncho liner weighs about 28 ounces, my sleeping bag weighs 32 oz, the comfort factor I get for 4 oz is worth it. A 10x10 cuben fiber tarp or sylnylon tarp is a hilton compared to a poncho. Getting some modern gear makes everything so much better. My backpack, shelter, and sleeping bag come in at 6 pounds, which is what my old Kifaru ruck weighed.
Is there anything available on the commercial market that is better than the military sleep system based on cost, weight, performance? You can get a MSS on Amazon for like a 100 bucks but they are heavy and don't compress well. It's a bonus that They are cheap and I like the 3 bags and bivy setup. Anything available on the commercial market that is lighter more compressible but isn't going to cost 5 times more?
Without knowing your operational needs, experience as it relates to the MSS, sleeping bags, sleeping pads and sleeping in the outdoors, I can offer the following:
I've found the MSS to be the biggest bang for the buck for myself and many others. Admittedly, everyone's needs are different.
-Only take the necessary components.
-Use the appropriate sized compression sack/s for these components.
-Choose the correct sleeping pad.
-Wear appropriate sleep clothing.
-Use a watch cap to regulate body temperature.
There are several techniques for sleeping warm.
Hopefully this info helps.
Here are some pics from my last trip:
Not everyone used a sleeping pad.
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag348/GMTG_Tactical/GMTG%20Tactical%20000365_zpsf4k4n6f5.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/GMTG_Tactical/media/GMTG%20Tactical%20000365_zpsf4k4n6f5.jpg.html)
Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XTherm Sleeping Pad.
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag348/GMTG_Tactical/GMTG%20Tactical%20000177_zps3n989jar.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/GMTG_Tactical/media/GMTG%20Tactical%20000177_zps3n989jar.jpg.html)
Everyone used the MSS.
http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag348/GMTG_Tactical/GMTG%20Tactical%20000136_zps4fuwuhzr.jpg (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/GMTG_Tactical/media/GMTG%20Tactical%20000136_zps4fuwuhzr.jpg.html)
trackmagic
02-27-15, 12:17
I have a USMC bivy. It is great. I'm pretty sure I could sleep in a puddle and stay dry. I have a down sleeping bag in it and have slept in the rain and snow and it has not gotten my bag wet.
light, cheap, good - pick any two. this has been a mantra for as long as I have been buying stuff...
what the MSS does is cheap and good. they are durable. if you're the guy who cuts the handle off his toothbrush, don't bother...
they work, maybe not down to the temps that some people think they do but they are cheap. the goretex bivy that you get is pretty much top of the line. the green Patrol bag is my favorite part because it compresses down pretty small and is three season capable but understand the temp ratings for these are wearing clothing. you're not going to strip down to skivvies and sleep all night comfortably at 30*. a woobie inside helps a lot.
the Goretex bivy adds about 5-10* of warmth and makes this a tentless reality but it has one fault, IMO, in that it has no suspension system and it lays on your face if you're a back sleeper. some people say just wear a ball cap to bed. I'm trying to rig up some kind of internal frame made from thin fiberglass poles but not been happy with the result.
the black Intermediate bag is bulky and heavy. to me, as a single bag it is the least desirable component but I won't get rid of mine. it was stupid cheap and it works. I will probably replace this with a Wiggy's 0* bag somewhere along the line but the other components have found a home with me...
light, cheap, good - pick any two. this has been a mantra for as long as I have been buying stuff...
what the MSS does is cheap and good. they are durable. if you're the guy who cuts the handle off his toothbrush, don't bother...
they work, maybe not down to the temps that some people think they do but they are cheap. the goretex bivy that you get is pretty much top of the line. the green Patrol bag is my favorite part because it compresses down pretty small and is three season capable but understand the temp ratings for these are wearing clothing. you're not going to strip down to skivvies and sleep all night comfortably at 30*. a woobie inside helps a lot.
the Goretex bivy adds about 5-10* of warmth and makes this a tentless reality but it has one fault, IMO, in that it has no suspension system and it lays on your face if you're a back sleeper. some people say just wear a ball cap to bed. I'm trying to rig up some kind of internal frame made from thin fiberglass poles but not been happy with the result.
the black Intermediate bag is bulky and heavy. to me, as a single bag it is the least desirable component but I won't get rid of mine. it was stupid cheap and it works. I will probably replace this with a Wiggy's 0* bag somewhere along the line but the other components have found a home with me...
Its a bit ghetto but I've had good luck with a piece of velcro tied to about 15' of paracord. I can usually find a good spot near a tree. Loop the cord around a branch and put the velcro between the bivy sack velcro clasps. You can use the paracord to pull the top of the bivy up just like a suspension line on a tent.
Is there anything available on the commercial market that is better than the military sleep system
Absolutely!
based on cost
probably not.
Thanks for all the replies. I think I'm going to pull the trigger on one, for the money it sounds like it can't be beat. Down the road I may replace the black back with something a little nicer/lighter/packable.
Its a bit ghetto but I've had good luck with a piece of velcro tied to about 15' of paracord. I can usually find a good spot near a tree. Loop the cord around a branch and put the velcro between the bivy sack velcro clasps. You can use the paracord to pull the top of the bivy up just like a suspension line on a tent.
Neat idea. I'll have to try that next time I'm using the bivy. On the flip side, I'm picturing this set-up in a thunderstorm. Lightning hits tree, travels down paracord to the bivy. You know the rest of the story!
Neat idea. I'll have to try that next time I'm using the bivy. On the flip side, I'm picturing this set-up in a thunderstorm. Lightning hits tree, travels down paracord to the bivy. You know the rest of the story!
Can't account for everything. T storms happen. Some paracord proping up your bivy won't be the determining factor on whether you live or die.
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ramairthree
04-07-15, 15:15
You can't beat the military light bag, heavy bag, bivy combo at the 100$ price point.
You need to spend at least 3x that to get the same capability in a lighter/ more compressible package.
I know I'm late to the party, and don't know a lot about civilian bags. But being stationed at Ft. Wainwright in the late 90's I can speak to the MSS. I've taken it to -25f overnight w/o a tent before. It certainly works. That said, you have to have good technique: Dig through the snow to the ground, lay a poncho down, then the MSS, 2nd poncho (or same one folded over) on top.
daddyusmaximus
09-20-15, 21:28
Love my MSS. I don't worry about the weight as much because I'm not gonna be hiking a long ways anymore. I mostly truck camp. The flexibility of the 3 pieces to mix and match is great for the money. (Free, I just kept mine when I retired) I also have a poncho liner that I had an old sleeping bag zipper put in. I use that or the MSS green if I need to go light.
HansTheHobbit
09-21-15, 01:24
I have pretty extensive experience with backpacking gear. Long story short, yes you can get better equipment, but it's going to cost you.
The bivvy sack from the military system is pretty good quality. You can get lighter bivvies, but they're going to be less durable. GoreTex makes three levels of fabric, and I believe the military system uses the heaviest, which is pretty bulky. GoreTex bivvies are pricy, but it's worth it, as others will be far less breathable, and moisture control is extremely important in cold weather. So for the price the military issue bivvy is a great value.
The actual sleeping bags aren't that great. First of all, having two sleeping bags that fit inside each other is a terrible idea. It adds lots of weight, and the larger bag isn't going to fit right, which will hurt its temp rating. I can't speak to the quality of the synthetic fiber, but I think that their temp rating is extremely optimistic. I've spent time in synthetic bags that were roughly the size of a VW, and I wouldn't take them below about 20 degrees. To go very far below freezing and still have a bag that's reasonably lightweight, you need down.
On the other side of things, temps above freezing require synthetic, as moisture is a no go with down. In high humidity, down bags are next to useless. In other words, you need synthetic for most of the year and down for the dead of winter. Which is hard if you live in places without distinct seasons, where you can go from 20 degrees to 70 degrees in a week. I've spent Christmas in shorts, only to be iced in on new years. For places like that, a good 20 degree synthetic bag is regarded as standard equipment for winter. It will likely cover you most of the time, it's reasonably lightweight, and you won't freeze to death if the temp goes above freezing and the humidity gets out of control. This would be for places like Oklahoma, Kansas, Northern Texas, Arkansas, etc. Northern states will require a dedicated down bag, plus a 20 degree synthetic for fall and spring. Once you go below 20 degrees, the synthetic bags can no longer be transported; they're too bulky and heavy at that point. The one exception to this rule is the high desert. If you live in a place like NM or AZ, then down is good to go all year. Which is nice, because a summer down bag, say rated to 50 degrees, can fit in a cargo pocket. Down is amazingly light, compressible, and durable; it just won't insulate when it gets wet.
So, the military bag is okay for some climates, not great but not terrible, but there are better options. The other thing about the military system is that synthetic fibers aren't very durable. They degrade rather quickly, and synthetic bags lose their temp rating much quicker than down. So those surplus bags might not have much life left in them, even if they look to be in good shape. A sleeping bag can only be compressed so many times before it's just not worth using anymore.
Another thing you will want to consider is that bivvies are only appropriate when there's no chance of rain, i.e. the temps are comfortably below freezing. If you try to use a bivvy in heavy rain, everything will get wet.
HansTheHobbit
09-21-15, 02:00
I forgot to add this, sorry. One of the most important things with a sleeping bag is moisture control, if not THE most important. Humidity determines the real world rating, and excess moisture buildup will turn a 0 degree bag into an icehouse. Even if you don't feel sweaty, you're always perspiring, even in the cold. That moisture has to go somewhere, so it's vital that the bag provide a good escape route. That's the fundamental flaw I see with the MSS is that you're dealing with four layers of nylon fabric instead of two. I think those things would hold moisture like none other.
Regarding wearing clothing to add rating to the bag, that can actually work against you, which is where the myth came from that going in your bag butt naked will keep you warmer. While being naked isn't necessary, unless your underwear is cotton (which it shouldn't be!), you do need to get rid of superfluous clothing that doesn't insulate and can hold moisture, such as a pair of pants, especially if it's a shell, be it soft or hard. Now, insulated clothing can help, but you have to make sure it's worth it. For example, a heavy down coat will definitely add more rating than it takes away. But a softshell jacket with a light fleece lining will remove more rating than it adds. Of course the humidity will determine what you can and can't get away with. In very dry conditions, that softshell may actually help you slightly.
To get the most out of the bag, wear a next to skin baselayer (with socks, glove liners, and cap) into the bag, nothing else. That will start wicking moisture from your skin as soon as it leaves the pores, which will dissipate it quicker. Then use a silk or wool bag liner. They're expensive, but well worth it. The point is not to lower the temp rating, although some claim to (they don't deliver on those claims), but to help with moisture control, as well as to keep your oils from screwing with the insulation. This wicking system will keep moisture moving, that way the bag fabric doesn't get saturated with sweat and become a barrier.
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