View Full Version : ATF Looking at Reclassifying M855 (UPDATE 3/12: CHANGING TACTICS)
BrigandTwoFour
02-13-15, 23:20
Saw this today.
ATF notice to reclassify M855 (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf)
Essentially, it boils down to this: The ATF has continued to let M855 (and similar) stay on the market because it was a rifle round and the only handguns that fired it were single shot break actions like the Thompson Contender. With the rise of AR pistols, M855 now readily meets the definition of armor piercing handgun ammunition, since it can be loaded into a box magazine and fired from a handgun. Therefore, they are looking to restrict its sale. Check the link for the whole proposal.
At the end you will find:
Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple
times or by more than one method):
ATF website: APAComments@atf.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
Fax: (202) 648-9741.
Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs
and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue,
NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and
Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives,
U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone:
(202) 648-7070.
BATFE is moving to classify 5.56x45mm M855/SS109 ammo as armor piercing ammo. (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf)
"As explained above, in 1986, ATF held that 5.56mm projectiles in SS109 and M855 cartridges were exempt. Further, in 1992, ATF held that 30-06 M2AP cartridges were also exempt. In each case, ATF found that, “it is well documented” that the respective ammunition “has been recognized as being suitable for target shooting with rifles due to its accuracy.” These cartridges were originally produced for the military and were only later adopted by civilians for sporting purposes. When assembled into a complete cartridge, the projectiles were exempt, but ATF did not exempt the projectiles before the cartridges were assembled. Applying the sporting purposes framework set-forth above, the 5.56mm projectile that ATF exempted in 1986 does not qualify for an exemption because that projectile when loaded into SS109 and M855 cartridges may be used in a handgun other than a single-shot handgun. Specifically, 5.56mm projectiles loaded into the SS109 and M855 cartridges are commonly used Framework for Deciding Sporting Purpose Ammunition pursuant to 18 USC 921(a)(17) in both “AR-type” rifles and “AR-type” handguns. The AR platform is the semi-automatic version of the M16 machinegun originally designed for and used by the military. The AR-based handguns and rifles utilize the same magazines and share identical receivers. These AR-type handguns were not commercially available when the armor piercing ammunition exemption was granted in 1986. To ensure consistency, upon final implementation of the sporting purpose framework outlined above, ATF must withdraw the exemptions for 5.56 mm “green tip” ammunition, including both the SS109 and M855 cartridges."
If this happens, it will be legal to own it and use it.
But, illegal to buy it or make it.
ATF will be accepting public comments on this subject until 03-16-2015
FFS.......
Gotta keep that stuff out civilian hands don't ya know.
BrigandTwoFour
02-13-15, 23:35
They go on talking about exemptions for all-copper rounds (like Barnes TSX) due to sporting purpose utility, especially in states like California that have banned lead hunting ammo. But those rounds also meet the definition of armor piercing, per the original legal language. I wonder how long it will be before those get targeted as well.
This will thrill everyone with a 1/7 twist barrel.
ColtSeavers
02-14-15, 00:12
I... son of a... gawdamnit... wonderful, just wonderful...
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-15, 02:04
I called this after the BATFE ruling on 7N6, just more .gov asshatery . . .
Leaveammoforme
02-14-15, 02:26
Delete
Flipping fracking flapping fraging chimichanga AR pistols.
"You need to SBR it" We said.
"Blah, blah, blah" They said.
AHHHHHH!
The important thing is you can put a SIG brace on an AR pistol and you don't have to register it. Remember?
Perhaps if we didn't REPEATEDLY REMIND ATF that there are now thousands of AR pistols that people are using as SBRs but claiming they are PISTOLS so it's ok.
Everyone bitches about the open carry retards, but I think we can thank the sig brace crowd for waking up the sleeping giant on this one.
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-15, 03:01
Everyone bitches about the open carry retards, but I think we can thank the sig brace crowd for waking up the sleeping giant on this one.
My sentiments exactly.
Or just blame ATF for being the retarded, bloated, and useless entity that they are... But I digress.
Or just blame ATF for being the retarded, bloated, and useless entity that they are... But I digress.
I think it would be easier to get the OC crowd to make business casual MANDATORY dress code than it would be to fix ATF.
Ironically those who were unwilling to SBR their short barrels just made our SBRs damn near useless. 1/7 twist really isn't optimal for .55 grain ammo. Might as well go back to the MP5.
polymorpheous
02-14-15, 04:09
Why can't you guys stop eating our own?
I suppose it's a lot easier to bitch and harp about gun owners you don't care for, than it is to actually fight to retain a God given right.
Some of you guys act exactly like Fudds.
This is probably one the most anti-second amendment gun forum on the Internet.
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-15, 04:23
Why can't you guys stop eating our own?
I suppose it's a lot easier to bitch and harp about gun owners you don't care for, than it is to actually fight to retain a God given right.
Some of you guys act exactly like Fudds.
This is probably one the most anti-second amendment gun forum on the Internet.
Ironic considering your signature line . . .
Anybody that owns or sells pistol versions of assault rifles is a bottom feeder, irregardless of the ban status of certain ammunition.
They are illigetimate weapons that have no real purpose other than to attract retards to the gun community.
Why can't you guys stop eating our own?
I suppose it's a lot easier to bitch and harp about gun owners you don't care for, than it is to actually fight to retain a God given right.
Some of you guys act exactly like Fudds.
This is probably one the most anti-second amendment gun forum on the Internet.
Got a plan? I'd love to hear all about it. In the meantime I'm just damn frustrated by THOUSANDS of people who are supposedly informed firearms enthusiasts who can't see that everyone having an AR "pistol" with a SIG brace is going to essentially force ATF to make a ruling like this.
It's not like the same EXACT THING didn't just recently happen with 7N6 ammo and people making AK pistols. You are correct "some of us" are our own worst enemy. And a big group is the ones who think "God given right...I'll do as I please" or "What's the worst that could happen" and they start making rifle caliber pistols completely OBLIVIOUS to the provisions that have existed since 1968 in the Gun Control Act and specifically the sporter clause.
How many times, with each and every caliber do we have to do this? 762x51, 762x39, 545x39 and now finally 556x45. Maybe somebody can make a .300 Blackout pistol and screw that one up too.
But again, if you have a plan, something that will help reverse this or at least try and fight it, please spell it out. I'm an NRA Life Member and I think so is most of the forum. But it's hard to fight something that has been spelled out PLAINLY since before a lot of this forum was born. This isn't a new rule, ATF is finally just applying what has existed since 1968.
If I'm coming across extremely frustrated that a bunch of "clowns" couldn't take the time to understand cause and effect then I'm just going to ask that you give me the same deference regarding my frustration that you seem to extend to the "clowns" with their AR, AK and HK rifle caliber pistols.
This isn't just fun and games for a lot of people. A lot of people have put a lot of money into building practical and effective defensive firearms that are for more than recreational use. And now the ammunition those weapons are designed around, is destined to become a rare and expensive collectors item. This isn't going to be like Black Talons where they just change the name and packaging.
This is going to be the end of being able to get the correct ammo for any rifle with a 1/7 twist at normal market prices, not that those were cheap and affordable to begin with. This is also a "from now on" consideration. It won't sunset in 10 years.
Might as well reconfigure every AR barrel everywhere for 1/10 twist, at least you will get a longer barrel life when shooting .55 grain ammo.
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-15, 04:48
Maybe somebody can make a .300 Blackout pistol and screw that one up too.
About that . . .
https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-300-blackout-pistol.html
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/pm400-psb-300blk.aspx
polymorpheous
02-14-15, 05:06
Ironic considering your signature line . . .
Went completely over your head.
Eurodriver
02-14-15, 05:16
Son of a bitch. M855 is all I stock on up.
Serious question: I love M855 as a "SHTF" round (I'm not rich enough to buy a couple thousand rounds of RA556B)
Should I go ahead and pull the lever on 3+ cases of this stuff? What is the likelihood this gets taken away?
polymorpheous
02-14-15, 05:16
Got a plan? I'd love to hear all about it. In the meantime I'm just damn frustrated by THOUSANDS of people who are supposedly informed firearms enthusiasts who can't see that everyone having an AR "pistol" with a SIG brace is going to essentially force ATF to make a ruling like this.
It's not like the same EXACT THING didn't just recently happen with 7N6 ammo and people making AK pistols. You are correct "some of us" are our own worst enemy. And a big group is the ones who think "God given right...I'll do as I please" or "What's the worst that could happen" and they start making rifle caliber pistols completely OBLIVIOUS to the provisions that have existed since 1968 in the Gun Control Act and specifically the sporter clause.
How many times, with each and every caliber do we have to do this? 762x51, 762x39, 545x39 and now finally 556x45. Maybe somebody can make a .300 Blackout pistol and screw that one up too.
But again, if you have a plan, something that will help reverse this or at least try and fight it, please spell it out. I'm an NRA Life Member and I think so is most of the forum. But it's hard to fight something that has been spelled out PLAINLY since before a lot of this forum was born. This isn't a new rule, ATF is finally just applying what has existed since 1968.
If I'm coming across extremely frustrated that a bunch of "clowns" couldn't take the time to understand cause and effect then I'm just going to ask that you give me the same deference regarding my frustration that you seem to extend to the "clowns" with their AR, AK and HK rifle caliber pistols.
This isn't just fun and games for a lot of people. A lot of people have put a lot of money into building practical and effective defensive firearms that are for more than recreational use. And now the ammunition those weapons are designed around, is destined to become a rare and expensive collectors item. This isn't going to be like Black Talons where they just change the name and packaging.
This is going to be the end of being able to get the correct ammo for any rifle with a 1/7 twist at normal market prices, not that those were cheap and affordable to begin with. This is also a "from now on" consideration. It won't sunset in 10 years.
Might as well reconfigure every AR barrel everywhere for 1/10 twist, at least you will get a longer barrel life when shooting .55 grain ammo.
Do I have a plan?
Well, perhaps we can all stop acting like a bunch of snobs and get onboard with our fellow gun owners.
But then, we don't like what some of them may be shooting.... so....
You don't think I'm an NRA member?
What did they do for the 7n6 ban?
And just what is the NRA doing about this?
What's going to be next on the BATFE agenda?
Who will we blame then?
This very forum is full of cowards, that would rather register all semi-auto, box fed rifles as NFA, than to fight to retain our GOD GIVEN RIGHT!
M4Carbine is so quick to stab other gun owners in the back.
Beyond writing the BATF, and every politician I can think of and making some phone calls, I will have to re-start reloading for .223/.556 with 62 gr projectiles or even a bit heavier. My 1/7 barrels just like them a little better. They shoot .55 gr fine, but the heavier rounds are just a bit more accurate.
This is a systematic approach by the Feds under the Obama Admin to restrict firearm usage. They couldn't ban the guns, so they are banning the ammo.
polymorpheous
02-14-15, 06:07
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo
Why can't you guys stop eating our own?
I suppose it's a lot easier to bitch and harp about gun owners you don't care for, than it is to actually fight to retain a God given right.
Some of you guys act exactly like Fudds.
This is probably one the most anti-second amendment gun forum on the Internet.
Spot on.
Should I go ahead and pull the lever on 3+ cases of this stuff? What is the likelihood this gets taken away?
No chance of that... at least right now.... I mean... nobody is rounding up that 76n, whatever, queer round.
#1. I agree with Poly. Blaming gun owners does absolutely nothing to help the cause. We know the law is dumb and the effort it takes to play the blame game is much better spent on fighting the law makers that are responsible for enacting such stupidity. After all, I can't think of a firearm that fits the bill of "sporting purpose" more than an AR pistol as most here consider it a "toy" used for tipping tin cans or punching paper. The irony here is ridiculous.
#2. There's so much better ammo out there, for my purposes at least, that this issue hardly causes as much of a ripple in my shooting habits.
In case you're into the mil spec ammo, M193 is still available. Ever see the damage that does on steel targets?
The_War_Wagon
02-14-15, 06:56
The BATmen: a "solution," in search of a problem, since 1933... :rolleyes:
#2. There's so much better ammo out there, for my purposes at least, that this issue hardly causes as much of a ripple in my shooting habits.
M855 is pretty useless... but it's still the ATF out of control under the Kenyan Shit stain.
M855 is pretty useless... but it's still the ATF out of control under the Kenyan Shit stain.
I agree, but that's covered under my #1 post. ;)
Why can't you guys stop eating our own?
I suppose it's a lot easier to bitch and harp about gun owners you don't care for, than it is to actually fight to retain a God given right.
Some of you guys act exactly like Fudds.
I agree with this.
Eurodriver
02-14-15, 07:31
M855 is pretty useless... but it's still the ATF out of control under the Kenyan Shit stain.
This goes to Ryno as well.
I have shot steel with M855 and M193 side by side and the M855 did serious damage whereas the M193 barely left a mark.
PatrioticDisorder
02-14-15, 07:36
Or just blame ATF for being the retarded, bloated, and useless entity that they are... But I digress.
This is 100% Obama & just a small party of the grand finale assault on Liberty & freedom we are witnessing. We have almost a full 2 more years of this executive fiat bullshit, brace yourself as you haven't seen anything yet.
This goes to Ryno as well.
I have shot steel with M855 and M193 side by side and the M855 did serious damage whereas the M193 barely left a mark.
I've shot some clean holes with M193 whereas the M855 only pitted it. I suppose it depends on the quality of steel.
(Tried uploading a pic but Tapatalk failed me.)
Either way, I could go an eternity and not shoot either & be fine with it. Still sucks that they're taking away cheap ammo from the masses though.
Very frustrating... We should never need to deal with this idiocy but it is reality.
I see a bigger run on this ammo than the 7N6 because a lot more people use it than 5.45. Plus the 7N6 was corrosive which presented a different issue that could be overcome with other available ammo.
The big problem to me is restricting ammo that is relatively cheap and what that restriction will do to the ammo market.
Let us all be thankful for moment that .gov entities will still be able to procure this ammo if they desire, all the while upholding their oath to protect and defend the constitution.... You know, for our safety afterall...
Still sucks that they're taking away cheap ammo from the masses though.
And there is the problem. Constricting the supply. It doesn't matter what they go after, it's the point that they ARE. It is 100% purpose driven toward the goal of slowly killing the ammo supply and enacting a defacto AWB. Make the ammo too expensive or unavailable and they win.
I think the AR pistols are pretty retarded as well, but, since we are on the freedom soapbox, let's support everyone's right to own whatever the hell they want, shall we?
The real danger here is the slow creep. Today's its 7N6 & M855. Tomorrow it's any full power 5.56 round, because it's "a military round" or some other horseshit they make up. Let's focus on the ball.
Eurodriver
02-14-15, 07:55
I've shot cleaner holes with M193 whereas the M855 only pitted it. I suppose it depends on the quality of steel.
Either way, I could go an eternity and not shoot either & be fine with it. Still sucks that they're taking away cheap ammo from the masses though.
Guess so. I'm not sold that M855 is necessarily better than M193, I've just seen the differences first hand so it stuck.
Plus, all of my BDCs (ACOGs) are calibrated to it. I suppose I could grab the Magtech CBC stuff Grant sells, it's more accurate anyway. Just sucks it costs more.
polymorpheous
02-14-15, 07:59
I just sent an E-mail to Congressman Ryan.
Senator Johnson is next, Senator Baldwin is a waste of time.
I urge members to contact your representatives.
One telephone call from the White House would stop this. Remember this next election.
One telephone call from the White House would stop this. Remember this next election.
The free shit army outnumbers intellectual patriots 3-1.
Just ordered 2K rounds of it a few minutes ago. And yeah, I'll be shooting it through my AR pistols too. :mad:
They go on talking about exemptions for all-copper rounds (like Barnes TSX) due to sporting purpose utility, especially in states like California that have banned lead hunting ammo. But those rounds also meet the definition of armor piercing, per the original legal language. I wonder how long it will be before those get targeted as well.
I've said for a long time that lead ammo bans are backdoor gun control. If you ban lead for "environmental concerns" and every other composition as AP, then what exactly is left?
Mauser KAR98K
02-14-15, 08:37
Maybe all the NRA mebers need to petition the NRA and sue the ATF and remove the sporting clause. Congress won't due shit. This is an absolute encroachment on the 2A.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-14-15, 08:55
Sooo... who was the last person killed with M855 by someone intentionally using its AP characteristics?
Are we back to the thought that you can't fire 55gr ammo in 1/7 barrels?
I don't think I have any M855. I try not to buy it since it will tear up steel. I might have some from my EOTWAWKI stage.
I agree, this is a back door gun ban method. Like going after the freedom of the press by regulating ink, or the internet.
My knowledge of bullet construction is lacking, but assuming that M855 is eventually banned from civilian sales, is it possible to design a bullet that meets the M855 profile (for 1/7 twist barrels) but is not an armor-piercing round?
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-15, 09:15
Went completely over your head.
No it didn't.
All because someone doesn't agree with a guy who thinks his "parts are parts" DPMS build is wise choice for self-defense, or an arm brace is the cat's meow, or it's cool to muzzle soccer mom's and himpsters at Starbucks with a Hi-Point carbine doesn't equite them to being anti-gun or a "coward".
Far from it in fact . . .
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-15, 09:20
This is 100% Obama & just a small party of the grand finale assault on Liberty & freedom we are witnessing. We have almost a full 2 more years of this executive fiat bullshit, brace yourself as you haven't seen anything yet.
Exactly. Let's not forget Barry's "under the radar" plans.
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-15, 09:32
I think the AR pistols are pretty retarded as well, but, since we are on the freedom soapbox, let's support everyone's right to own whatever the hell they want, shall we?
I don't recall anyone saying that others don't have the right to own an AR pistol, or a pistol version of any MBR/assault rifle for that matter. A member simply pointed out that the arm brace fad as brought unwated attention to the M855 is really AP bovine feces.
All of these anti-gun measures are bad news for the Republic, "death by a thousand cuts" and all that.
Essentially, it boils down to this: The ATF has continued to let M855 (and similar) stay on the market because it was a rifle round and the only handguns that fired it were single shot break actions like the Thompson Contender
The word "let" is very indicative of who has the power now.
We haven't been a Republic for years..... A friend of mine argues, "Why even do anything, nobody cares about freedom anymore. We don't have enough people who are willing to fight! (politically)if I do something, I will probably be alone." I reply, "Come with me to caucuses, become a state or county delegate, speak your mind, go to city councils, talk to Reps and Senators.... VOTE damn it!!! Just please do SOMETHING!!!"
BTW...why are we fighting with each other? Seems like a waste of energy considering who has been attacking what a few of us hold most dear.
Reid Hendricks from Tactical Response is a Constitutional scholar, and has a wonderful video. Watch if you can. "A Republic if you can keep it."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez6LMM4sPbc
The important thing is you can put a SIG brace on an AR pistol and you don't have to register it. Remember?
Perhaps if we didn't REPEATEDLY REMIND ATF that there are now thousands of AR pistols that people are using as SBRs but claiming they are PISTOLS so it's ok.
Everyone bitches about the open carry retards, but I think we can thank the sig brace crowd for waking up the sleeping giant on this one.
How about rather than blaming other gun owners for owning want they want, let's call it what it's is.
This would have came about if it weren't for sb15, the sb15, got popular for its perceived way of "getting around the NFA", which leads us back to the NFA of 1934.
This has nothing to do with the SB15, it has everything to do with gun owners not standing together and taking the NFA for being a unconstitutional anti 2A law that it is. If we all could get in the same page with this and demand it changed and challenge it in court. We would win
But like when you are wanting to blame SB15 owners for this then it only shows your unwillingness to do so, the 2A is the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't say a damn thing about whether it be a AR, pistol or rifle, muzzle loader, lever action, hand gun, or anything else. People show be able to own what they want. You all should know this
You all should be stand behind anyone wanting to keep and bear arms, whether or not you like the arms they have chosen.
Don't blame this (potential) ban on anyone but yourself. If we all were all on the same page with it, it wouldn't exist.
polymorpheous
02-14-15, 09:50
How about rather than blaming other gun owners for owning want they want, let's call it what it's is.
This would have came about if it weren't for sb15, the sb15, got popular for its perceived way of "getting around the NFA", which leads us back to the NFA of 1934.
This has nothing to do with the SB15, it has everything to do with gun owners not standing together and taking the NFA for being a unconstitutional anti 2A law that it is. If we all could get in the same page with this and demand it changed and challenge it in court. We would win
But like when you are wanting to blame SB15 owners for this then it only shows your unwillingness to do so, the 2A is the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't say a damn thing about whether it be a AR, pistol or rifle, muzzle loader, lever action, hand gun, or anything else. People show be able to own what they want. You all should know this
You all should be stand behind anyone wanting to keep and bear arms, whether or not you like the arms they have chosen.
Don't blame this (potential) ban on anyone but yourself. If we all were all on the same page with it, it wouldn't exist.
Tactical Fudds
jerrysimons
02-14-15, 10:17
The laughs that must happen at the ATF and elitist left: "look at these fools *deep belly laugh* we can do what ever we want, and they will just bicker amongst themselves! hardyharhar..."
If you all think for a second this isn't Barack Hussein's regime working under the radar, then our cause really is hopeless. :suicide: AR pistols are nothing new.
I will sum this up.
The ATF and the left just suck and AR pistols are gay.
END OF STORY.
NOW BACK TO OUR TOPIC
I don't recall anyone saying that others don't have the right to own an AR pistol, or a pistol version of any MBR/assault rifle for that matter. A member simply pointed out that the arm brace fad as brought unwated attention to the M855 is really AP bovine feces.
All of these anti-gun measures are bad news for the Republic, "death by a thousand cuts" and all that.
I agree and wasn't aiming that at any one person(s). I just think the complaining about pistol owners and their choices while simultaneously pointing out freedom infringement by the ATF is hypocritical. Freedom to choose what we buy is still a freedom. Even if I (we) think AR/AK pistols are silly. The infringement is the problem. Not the choice to choose arm braces.
Phillygunguy
02-14-15, 11:46
The laughs that must happen at the ATF and elitist left: "look at these fools *deep belly laugh* we can do what ever we want, and they will just bicker amongst themselves! hardyharhar..."
If you all think for a second this isn't Barack Hussein's regime working under the radar, then our cause really is hopeless. :suicide: AR pistols are nothing new.
Yep that big eared faggot in the WH and his Jack booted butt buddy thugs are laughing at us. We need legislative action in the House to stop all funding to the BATFE but doubt that would happen
Eurodriver
02-14-15, 11:47
This already exists. G&R sells it.
My knowledge of bullet construction is lacking, but assuming that M855 is eventually banned from civilian sales, is it possible to design a bullet that meets the M855 profile (for 1/7 twist barrels) but is not an armor-piercing round?
By way of background, federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely . . . from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” Because there are handguns capable of firing M855, it “may be used in a handgun.” It does not, however, have a core made of the metals listed in the law; rather, it has a traditional lead core with a steel tip, and therefore should never have been considered “armor piercing.”
I haven't dug into this at all, so assuming that's all correct... if the ATF removes the exemption for M855, it still doesn't meet the definition of armor piercing ammunition. So will any of this matter, or can the ATF arbitrarily and unilaterally decide any ammunition is "armor piercing"?
How about rather than blaming other gun owners for owning want they want, let's call it what it's is.
This would have came about if it weren't for sb15, the sb15, got popular for its perceived way of "getting around the NFA", which leads us back to the NFA of 1934.
This has nothing to do with the SB15, it has everything to do with gun owners not standing together and taking the NFA for being a unconstitutional anti 2A law that it is. If we all could get in the same page with this and demand it changed and challenge it in court. We would win
But like when you are wanting to blame SB15 owners for this then it only shows your unwillingness to do so, the 2A is the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't say a damn thing about whether it be a AR, pistol or rifle, muzzle loader, lever action, hand gun, or anything else. People show be able to own what they want. You all should know this
You all should be stand behind anyone wanting to keep and bear arms, whether or not you like the arms they have chosen.
Don't blame this (potential) ban on anyone but yourself. If we all were all on the same page with it, it wouldn't exist.
The laughs that must happen at the ATF and elitist left: "look at these fools *deep belly laugh* we can do what ever we want, and they will just bicker amongst themselves! hardyharhar..."
If you all think for a second this isn't Barack Hussein's regime working under the radar, then our cause really is hopeless. :suicide: AR pistols are nothing new.
^^
This times a million.
Should people stop playing with fire? Yep.
Should it matter whether a barrel is 8 inches or 11 inches or 16.1 inches or what ammo gets fired through it? No.
Further, considering there's been a good bit of support for the AR pistol here.... I find some of the AR pistol "fudd" hate a little hypocritical.
I also continue to be amazed at the divisiveness of the "Pro-freedom" crowd.
But I digress from the topic at hand...
And since when is 855 now AP? I was under the impression that the vast majority of body armor worth it's salt is rated against this....
Guess so. I'm not sold that M855 is necessarily better than M193, I've just seen the differences first hand so it stuck.
Plus, all of my BDCs (ACOGs) are calibrated to it. I suppose I could grab the Magtech CBC stuff Grant sells, it's more accurate anyway. Just sucks it costs more.
And herein is my serious question- is this a ban on "milsurp/spec" steel tip/core 855, or ALL 62gr. rounds like the CBC that are "like" 855 but just use standard copper&lead bullets?
TacMedic556
02-14-15, 12:20
http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammunition/223-556mm
1000 Round Can - 5.56mm GP21 - SS109 / M855 - 62 Grain Penetrator NATO Spec Ammo Made in Lithuania by GGG
Just bought a 1000 for 459. The number of cases in stock is dropping by the second.
BrigandTwoFour
02-14-15, 12:29
And herein is my serious question- is this a ban on "milsurp/spec" steel tip/core 855, or ALL 62gr. rounds like the CBC that are "like" 855 but just use standard copper&lead bullets?
My reading is that it's a modification of the rules on SS109 steel-core type ammo. If a bullet is traditional copper and lead, it is not affected. I've been stockpiling 69gr SMK loads for a while, which shoots better, is more accurate, has similar ballistics, and has more utility for my purposes anyway. For now, all-copper loads like Barnes TSX seem to be unaffected as well. Though, since they can be fired from AR pistols as well, I wouldn't be surprised if they get reclassified in the future as well. The ATF's letter states that there have been 30+ requests for exemptions from these companies producing all-copper rounds for hunting purposes in lead-ban states (i.e. California).
PatrioticDisorder
02-14-15, 12:40
My reading is that it's a modification of the rules on SS109 steel-core type ammo. If a bullet is traditional copper and lead, it is not affected. I've been stockpiling 69gr SMK loads for a while, which shoots better, is more accurate, has similar ballistics, and has more utility for my purposes anyway. For now, all-copper loads like Barnes TSX seem to be unaffected as well. Though, since they can be fired from AR pistols as well, I wouldn't be surprised if they get reclassified in the future as well. The ATF's letter states that there have been 30+ requests for exemptions from these companies producing all-copper rounds for hunting purposes in lead-ban states (i.e. California).
Sounds like the Chicomsky Ocommiebama end game, change the rules without legislation, ban lead free ammo and then ban lead ammo via environmental regulations. What we need to do is get our asses out and vote in the primary. The next republican presidential candidate cannot be a Luke warm defender of the 2nd amendment, he or she has to be STAUNCHLY pro 2a so we can finally get on the offensive and reclaim RKBA.
Phillygunguy
02-14-15, 12:52
Sounds like the Chicomsky Ocommiebama end game, change the rules without legislation, ban lead free ammo and then ban lead ammo via environmental regulations. What we need to do is get our asses out and vote in the primary. The next republican presidential candidate cannot be a Luke warm defender of the 2nd amendment, he or she has to be STAUNCHLY pro 2a so we can finally get on the offensive and reclaim RKBA.
If Johnny Boehner had any balls the House could cut funds to the ATF in the meantime but we all know he's a puss
Mauser KAR98K
02-14-15, 12:56
Sounds like the Chicomsky Ocommiebama end game, change the rules without legislation, ban lead free ammo and then ban lead ammo via environmental regulations. What we need to do is get our asses out and vote in the primary. The next republican presidential candidate cannot be a Luke warm defender of the 2nd amendment, he or she has to be STAUNCHLY pro 2a so we can finally get on the offensive and reclaim RKBA.
Mean while we can stand and fight now and show our numbers. Everyone needs to write to the ATF on the comments and keeping the round as it is for a sporting purpose. The MP sells and hands out this round for its matches. Local LE use this round, particularly small, rural departments for practice. It will also hark the supply of 5.56 as it will eliminate a large source.
Also wrote to the NRA, and in this case the CMP for them to sue the ATF to eliminate the sporting clause as that clause has no bearing on the different shooting sports that are in use more than hunting.
Write your congress critters as well. Hell, even write to the big talk show hosts (Glenn Beck) to bring this up Monday morning. This needs exposure. This isn't some foreign round; this is domestic round that our military, LE, and us use for "sport," training, recreation, and defense. It is a common usage part of our AR'S that are also in common usage that should be defined under the Hellar decision.
Stop blaming and winning and get active. Get active the way we did to stop the ban in 2013. We can do it again, and this time we have a better chance with a Republican led congress.
Mauser KAR98K
02-14-15, 12:57
If Johnny Boehner had any balls the House could cut funds to the ATF in the meantime but we all know he's a puss
Cutting funding would not stop this. This is done by a very small group where funding cut would just add stress, not a stop gap.
Phillygunguy
02-14-15, 13:00
Cutting funding would not stop this. This is done by a very small group where funding cut would just add stress, not a stop gap.
If it would put a bunch of ATF guys out of work it might send a message
Mauser KAR98K
02-14-15, 13:03
If it would put a bunch of ATF guys out of work it might send a message
Negative. The laws still need to be enforced. It will go to some other agency within the DOJ. FBI probably. They would still do this. The law needs to change. Period.
PatrioticDisorder
02-14-15, 13:03
Mean while we can stand and fight now and show our numbers. Everyone needs to write to the ATF on the comments and keeping the round as it is for a sporting purpose. The MP sells and hands out this round for its matches. Local LE use this round, particularly small, rural departments for practice. It will also hark the supply of 5.56 as it will eliminate a large source.
Also wrote to the NRA, and in this case the CMP for them to sue the ATF to eliminate the sporting clause as that clause has no bearing on the different shooting sports that are in use more than hunting.
Write your congress critters as well. Hell, even write to the big talk show hosts (Glenn Beck) to bring this up Monday morning. This needs exposure. This isn't some foreign round; this is domestic round that our military, LE, and us use for "sport," training, recreation, and defense. It is a common usage part of our AR'S that are also in common usage that should be defined under the Hellar decision.
Stop blaming and winning and get active. Get active the way we did to stop the ban in 2013. We can do it again, and this time we have a better chance with a Republican led congress.
Agreed on all accounts, my congress woman is a left wing wacko, so I'll br writing to Boehner's office & contacting the BATFE to voice my displeasure, I'll do all I can do. Hopefully we have an organized response to this bullshit, but I still believe getting a staunch 2a president with ultra pro 2a house & senate is our best bet to get back on the offense taking our rights back.
Crock...of.... Bullshit...
In the words of Louis Armstrong... "What a Wonderful World" :angry:
What a damn joke.
Phillygunguy
02-14-15, 13:35
Agreed on all accounts, my congress woman is a left wing wacko, so I'll br writing to Boehner's office & contacting the BATFE to voice my displeasure, I'll do all I can do. Hopefully we have an organized response to this bullshit, but I still believe getting a staunch 2a president with ultra pro 2a house & senate is our best bet to get back on the offense taking our rights back.
Good luck with that it's already fixed between Jeb and Hillary
Should I go ahead and pull the lever on 3+ cases of this stuff? What is the likelihood this gets taken away?
Probably should, before the price jumps due to demand.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
proven correct once again time after time for years.
My knowledge of bullet construction is lacking, but assuming that M855 is eventually banned from civilian sales, is it possible to design a bullet that meets the M855 profile (for 1/7 twist barrels) but is not an armor-piercing round?
If I'm not mistaken doesn't someone make a 62gr round that is not M855? I'm not talking about that steel cased shit either. Only question then is if it is 5.56mm pressure or .223, 'cause my preference (and that of some of my weapons) is to run the 5.56 fodder.
The problem is they make shit up and announce bans that contradict the law.
By way of background, federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely . . . from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” Because there are handguns capable of firing M855, it “may be used in a handgun.” It does not, however, have a core made of the metals listed in the law; rather, it has a traditional lead core with a steel tip, and therefore should never have been considered “armor piercing.” Nonetheless, BATFE previously declared M855 to be “armor piercing ammunition,” but granted it an exemption as a projectile “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”
Well the rush is on for M855. I ordered 2K from Widener's at 8AM this morning and they are CLEANED OUT of any M855 as of a few minutes ago when I looked. They had quite a bit showing in stock this morning, to include IMI, Lake City, Federal, Prvi, and some Lithuanian stuff. Now it's ALL gone.
NWcityguy2
02-14-15, 14:26
My knowledge of bullet construction is lacking, but assuming that M855 is eventually banned from civilian sales, is it possible to design a bullet that meets the M855 profile (for 1/7 twist barrels) but is not an armor-piercing round?
It would be incredibly easy to design a FMJBT bullet that has the same profile as M855. The problem is though that it wouldn't be as cheap as M855. M855 is popular because it is cheap.
CBC/Magtech makes 62grain fmj.
This is ridiculous though. Here comes panic buying and increased prices.
NWcityguy2
02-14-15, 14:33
Same weight, but not the same profile.
Heavy Metal
02-14-15, 14:43
My knowledge of bullet construction is lacking, but assuming that M855 is eventually banned from civilian sales, is it possible to design a bullet that meets the M855 profile (for 1/7 twist barrels) but is not an armor-piercing round?
There are already 62 grain loads without the steel core.
All this will do is force deletion of the steel insert and will give us more accurate ammo in return.
That said, it think it is very arguable that this round is exempt on at least two of the criteria and a proper court challenge could easily see this being broken off in the ATFs backside.
Need to bring a suit if they go thru with this in the district in Texas that has applied strict scrutiny to interstate handgun sales this week.
BoringGuy45
02-14-15, 15:01
These federal agencies do not answer to judges, Congress, the president, or the people and can ban and regulate things at will and We The People have absolutely no say in it whatsoever. Nobody in this country should be allowed to make laws unless they are elected by the people. They shouldn't be able to change the definition of things in order to make it consistent with a prohibited item without Congressional approval. What needs to be done is a major change in how departments are allowed to regulate things.
These federal agencies do not answer to judges, Congress, the president, or the people and can ban and regulate things at will and We The People have absolutely no say in it whatsoever. Nobody in this country should be allowed to make laws unless they are elected by the people. They shouldn't be able to change the definition of things in order to make it consistent with a prohibited item without Congressional approval. What needs to be done is a major change in how departments are allowed to regulate things.
While I agree with you, you're wishing for something that will never happen. No political party will oppose the power of agencies to regulate, because they want those agencies to do their bidding when it's their turn at the helm. Even though we may agree more with the views of one particular side, they still play the game the same way.
A few Facts: The AP hand gun ammunition ban was enacted in 1986 and has nothing to do with GCA68. The FIRST AR15 pistol was manufactured in 1993. So, it took the ATF 22 years to make the connection between AR pistol and M855? I don't think so. There is nothing short of changing the law that will fix this. Call you elected idiots and make it plain you are displeased. Email them relentlessly.
Quiet Riot
02-14-15, 15:48
These federal agencies do not answer to judges, Congress, the president, or the people and can ban and regulate things at will and We The People have absolutely no say in it whatsoever. Nobody in this country should be allowed to make laws unless they are elected by the people. They shouldn't be able to change the definition of things in order to make it consistent with a prohibited item without Congressional approval. What needs to be done is a major change in how departments are allowed to regulate things.
Not true at all. Congress controls their budget, and they have used it in the past to completely defund specific policies many times. In fact, just a few years ago, Congress defunded the ATF shotgun importation study, which was working towards banning the importation of Saiga 12s and the like.
Congress can absolutely put the kibosh on this with a single line item in a budget bill- "No federal funds will be spent on removing the 'armor piercing' exemption of M855." It can be that specific, and it is an important part of the checks and balances set up in the Constitution itself.
Alternatively (and preferrably), Congress can repeal the law banning "armor piercing" pistol ammo, or at a minimum, amend it so that M855 and other rifle ammo is permanently exempt just as was proposed then voted down with the original bill.
Other than the fact that the ATF is once again infringing upon the 2A via the backdoor for some ridiculous reason, I don't really see what the big deal is. IMO, the only ammo worse than XM855 is most steel-cased and anything produced by Independence. For the most part, XM855 isn't even priced right considering what it is.
Any time there is a move to limit access to guns or ammo I think it's a big deal. Doesn't matter to me if it's something I personally like or not. I don't use M855 but this is how they get more gun control indirectly, chipping away a little bit at a time. And whether people want to acknowledge it or not, this will have an affect on the entire 223/5.56 ammo market.
It's probably too costly for any politician to stop a ban on this deadly ammo. I don't think most Republicans would touch it with a ten foot pole. It was hard enough getting quite a few of them to side with us on these deadly assault weapons we don't need.
TacMedic556
02-14-15, 16:09
Replace "MONEY" in this video for "M855" this morning. Come on, time for a laugh to lighten things up. That stuff disappeared fast.
AAAAAaaand Its GONE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DT7bX-B1Mg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DT7bX-B1Mg
Eurodriver
02-14-15, 16:46
I can't believe that M855 is already OOS on the entire internet.
I can't believe that M855 is already OOS on the entire internet.
People haven't learned from the last several panics so they wait until something bad happens to stock up.
"Gotta make hay while the sun shines" falls on deaf ears.
Voodoochild
02-14-15, 17:11
Glad I have several thousand 855 rounds (Winchester and IMI) stocked up for a rainy day. Honestly 855 isn't that great anyways.
Why can't you guys stop eating our own?
I suppose it's a lot easier to bitch and harp about gun owners you don't care for, than it is to actually fight to retain a God given right.
Well said.
We (gun owners) would do a lot better if we could f'n get organized and work together as a group. But there is something about gun owners that makes that very difficult. Maybe it's the strong independence streak in most of us. I don't know. But it seems like the liberals steamroll us at will while we are busy nitpicking and arguing among ourselves like little girls.
Joe Mamma
Eurodriver
02-14-15, 17:19
People haven't learned from the last several panics so they wait until something bad happens to stock up.
"Gotta make hay while the sun shines" falls on deaf ears.
Kinda makes me wanna put a few cases on the EE and see if I can ask $500 each.
$1000 will buy 3.25 cases of M193
I can't believe that M855 is already OOS on the entire internet.
I just ordered 2K worth at normal price..........
Kinda makes me wanna put a few cases on the EE and see if I can ask $500 each.
$1000 will buy 3.25 cases of M193
Woah there brother, during the SH panic I saw M855 selling for $1.25-$1.75 a round around where I was at. for $500 I would think people would buy it to flip it. I wish I could add the sarcastic dude after that but it is the truth.
Anyway, I don't think under military classification M855 is AP. That belongs to the M955 round if my memory serves. M855's claim to fame was that it was set up to go through a russian helmet at what 500 meters? Has anyone pointed out that most military helmets aren't designed to stop bullets, generally only being designed to stop shrapnel from lobotomizing the wearer. So even in it's design it isn't AP as far as I can see. And as has already been stated M193 will generally pierce armor better than M855. I find the whole thing to be a colossal circlejerk.
Eurodriver
02-14-15, 19:30
I just ordered 2K worth at normal price..........
Where at man? Uhh...not not like I'm trying to buy any or anything, but.... ;)
Voodoochild
02-14-15, 19:31
Price gouging to commence in 3...2...1...
Might have to see what the price gets up too and flip a few hundred rounds...
Eurodriver
02-14-15, 19:35
Woah there brother, during the SH panic I saw M855 selling for $1.25-$1.75 a round around where I was at. for $500 I would think people would buy it to flip it. I wish I could add the sarcastic dude after that but it is the truth.
Anyway, I don't think under military classification M855 is AP. That belongs to the M955 round if my memory serves. M855's claim to fame was that it was set up to go through a russian helmet at what 500 meters? Has anyone pointed out that most military helmets aren't designed to stop bullets, generally only being designed to stop shrapnel from lobotomizing the wearer. So even in it's design it isn't AP as far as I can see. And as has already been stated M193 will generally pierce armor better than M855. I find the whole thing to be a colossal circlejerk.
Price gouging to commence in 3...2...1...
Might have to see what the price gets up too and flip a few hundred rounds...
You guys are absolutely right.
http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/rifle/556/
M855 is already sold out for <$1 round. ridiculous. I've got 3 150rd boxes of Federal XM855 sitting right next to me. I think I paid $45 each. If it gets real stupid I'll make a real profit.
That's crazy. I wasn't planning to buy any but checked some sites this morning, all sold out now.
People love to panic.
vicious_cb
02-14-15, 19:57
Awesome, now I can start my green tip paint removal service for people who want to hide their M855.
With the rise of AR pistols, M855 now readily meets the definition of armor piercing handgun ammunition, since it can be loaded into a box magazine and fired from a handgun.
:
I do not see how. Here is def of AP:
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
I would say no on (i), as it is not made entirely from those materials.
I would say no on (ii), as it is not designed and intended for use in a handgun. It was designed and intended for use in a M16A2 Rifle. Have to take one apart to see if Jack is 25+ of weight. Is that weight at sea level or on the space station?
Let's not insult fags in such a way.
Yep that big eared faggot in the WH and his Jack booted butt buddy thugs are laughing at us. We need legislative action in the House to stop all funding to the BATFE but doubt that would happen
hotrodder636
02-14-15, 21:47
Now I debate just sealing up the M855 I have or just shoot it like I have been doing...
Mauser KAR98K
02-14-15, 22:25
Now I debate just sealing up the M855 I have or just shoot it like I have been doing...
I'm saving mine for a "rainy" day. Same with what I have left of 7n6.
I just sent my comments to the ATF, sent an email to the NRA ILA to fight this hard, and also one to Glen Beck to make mention of this on his show. I will get congress critters on Tuesday.
Make this heard. Reach out to talk radio hosts. Reason why I chose Beck as he has been a big 2A supporter, publishing a book on how gun control is all about control. I don't know any other talk radio host who has done that.
This is nothing more than a back door ban, to make it more cost prohibited to shoot.
I do not see how. Here is def of AP:
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
I would say no on (i), as it is not made entirely from those materials.
I would say no on (ii), as it is not designed and intended for use in a handgun. It was designed and intended for use in a M16A2 Rifle. Have to take one apart to see if Jack is 25+ of weight. Is that weight at sea level or on the space station?
Question. Wouldn't the "larger than .22 cal." pretty much eliminated it from being classified since it is in effect a .22 bullet?
ETA: Yes, I know I am using rational thought process when it rarely works for the government.
I can't believe that M855 is already OOS on the entire internet.
I can.
Buck a round steel shit and $99 Pmags from CTD anyone?.... :rolleyes:
Now I debate just sealing up the M855 I have or just shoot it like I have been doing...
Wait three days until the 855 is *really* dried up and sell it, then go buy better ammo with the proceeds.
Might as well gain something from this lunacy, right?
BrigandTwoFour
02-14-15, 22:47
I do not see how. Here is def of AP:
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
I would say no on (i), as it is not made entirely from those materials.
I would say no on (ii), as it is not designed and intended for use in a handgun. It was designed and intended for use in a M16A2 Rifle. Have to take one apart to see if Jack is 25+ of weight. Is that weight at sea level or on the space station?
Whether or not you see it isn't the point. They want to do it. This is from the proposal
Applying the sporting purposes framework set-forth above, the 5.56mm projectile that ATF exempted in 1986 does not qualify for an exemption because that projectile when loaded into SS109 and M855 cartridges may be used in a handgun other than a single-shot handgun. Specifically, 5.56mm projectiles loaded into the SS109 and M855 cartridges are commonly used Framework for Deciding Sporting Purpose Ammunition pursuant to 18 USC 921(a)(17) in both “AR-type” rifles and “AR-type” handguns. The AR platform is the semi-automatic version of the M16 machinegun originally designed for and used by the military. The AR-based handguns and rifles utilize the same magazines and share identical receivers. These AR-type handguns were not commercially available when the armor piercing ammunition exemption was granted in 1986. To ensure consistency, upon final implementation of the sporting purpose framework outlined above, ATF must withdraw the exemptions for 5.56 mm “green tip” ammunition, including both the SS109 and M855 cartridges.
So basically, tyranny.
Is this affecting the manufacturing of projos or just loaded rounds? The above reads as the latter.
Mauser KAR98K
02-14-15, 23:10
So basically, tyranny.
Is this affecting the manufacturing of projos or just loaded rounds? The above reads as the latter.
It's both.
Everyone needs to write. This is going to hurt us. This isn't like the 7n6 ban. It may be " trash"ammo, but it is a selection that keeps prices down so we can keep shooting, and get others into the platform.
APAComments@atf.gov
What I wrote:
I am writing for the comments of the proposed ban on the M855 5.56 NATO round that has been in public circulation for the last three decades.
I am a law abiding citizen, as many of the commenters of this subject will also be, and I, like many, shoot that AR15 platform for shooting sport, hunting, and home defense. I live in one of the rural parts of the state of Tennessee, and my primary weapon for home defense is my AR15. It utilized to neutralize coyotes, to check out buildings at night, and also for recreation.
The ammo I use to practice, train, and also get other new shooters in is a mix of cheap 5.56/.223 in either the .55 grain M193, import steel cased ammo, or the M855 5.56, or reloads of the SS109 bullet I acquire. The M855 is used in my government profile AR15 with a "20 barrel (similar to the M16A4) in NRA and CMP high power matches, or training for the those matches. My barrel is a 1/7 twist rate, which was designed around the M855 for optimal accuracy. This accuracy is very evident out at 200 yards, where most of the CMP military matches take place. The CMP also issues this ammo out for the certain matches.
The M855 is used in a "sporting" manner for target shooting, and matches. I understand that the reclassification is due to the recent prevalence of AR pistols. I also understand that the M855 was exempted from the status as amour piercing. However, it must be recognized that the M855 is used for more than a mimicry of a pistol but rather, as I have noted, in real sportsman settings. The round is also inexpensive for those of us who shoot more than a 1,000 rounds a month at times. It is far cheaper to shoot this .62 grain projectile, which has similar accuracy characteristics and recoil of match or factory hand loads, and it is easier to get. I cannot get the same level of accuracy and "zero" with .55 grain FMJ loads. Yes, those .55 grain FMJ rounds are cheaper, but the level of accuracy is not their in a 1/7 twist rate barrel.
Furthermore, the elimination of the M855 from the market will displace the demand on the .55 grain rounds and projectile that will raise the costs of shooting, practicing and training. This is will make it harder for us to enjoy or Second Amendment rights, and become better, proficient shooters either at our sport, in a dire particle setting. I do look at this all-of-a-sudden ruling to make M855 in an armor piercing classification as a backdoor attempted of a gun ban by limiting the ammunition we are able to obtain. The rise in prices would make it cost prohibited for others to enjoy, train and shoot their ARs, which are considered to be in general circulation of the Heller ruling from the Supreme Court.
There alternatives that are in a .62 grain bullet to the SS109/M855 round, however, they come from foreign manufactures that could also be ruled to be ban from importation. This makes the M855 with the SS109 profile a domestic round that is made here and should not be banned for this reason alone. The M855 can also be defeated by many level III+ and level IV armor panels that are made to stop just this round. Soft, or Kevlar armor, that is the primary body armor used many police departs can be defeated by most rifle rounds, no matter the length of the barrel of the weapon, or the classification of the weapon. It is also well to note that more people are killed with a true handgun, than a rifle, semi-automatic rifle, or a semi-automatic rifle made into a "pistol". The round will do what is meant to do, regardless of the size and scope. (It performs better with a longer barrel).
To summarize: the reclassification of the M855 to an armor piercing round due to the recent prevalence of "AR pistols" is short sighted of how the round is used in real sporting applications, hunting (wild hogs in Texas), self-defense, and practice and training. This also seems like a convenient way to restrict the safe and law abiding citizens of the United States of our Second Amendment rights by lessening our inexpensive selection of 5.56 for our AR15 and other 5.56 NATO chambered firearms. This ruling falls well beyond the scope of the sporting clause, what classifies as an armor piercing round, infringes on our Second Amendment rights, and goes against the common usage clause in the Heller ruling. In effect, the ruling is short sighted, harmful to average citizens and the country, and very arbitrary. It will hamper my use and practice of my shooting sports and self-defense, along with others, including small, local law enforcement agencies.
As an American, and as an active shooting sportsman, please do not arbitrarily ban the M855 and the SS109 bullet due to other firearm owners remaking a rifle to circumvent another law. This ruling will hurt the majority of us who use our rifles as rifles, and not "pistols".
Thank you,
Well once again here we go! The panic buying is going to start again! Prices will go up and people will just start to buy up it all and really drive up prices!
Oh good hell here we go again. Let's eff one of the top available cheaper types of ammo.
What, are they going to outlaw all calibers that have a defeat ability next? They can't take the guns, so they screw with ammo instead. Outlaw lead?
What the hell else is going happen in the next two years? **** me running...
Price gouging to commence in 3...2...1...
Might have to see what the price gets up too and flip a few hundred rounds...
http://www.armslist.com/posts/4033142/ohio-ammo-for-sale--atf-banned-----one-round-of-m855-ss-109-greentip-5-56mm--
Do I have a plan?
Well, perhaps we can all stop acting like a bunch of snobs and get onboard with our fellow gun owners.
But then, we don't like what some of them may be shooting.... so....
Wasn't trying to be a snob. Just calling it as I see it.
You don't think I'm an NRA member?
What did they do for the 7n6 ban?
And just what is the NRA doing about this?
I didn't suggest anything regarding you being a NRA member. I was just stating I was a life member and right now that's about the best a person can do. And the NRA didn't do anything about the 7N6 ban and they won't do anything about this one either because it's been a law since 1968.
And that is why you don't make rifle caliber pistols. It wasn't a huge deal with 762x51, 762x39 and even the 7N6 wasn't a big deal. But typically every AR is 1/7 twist and those rifles become pretty pointless if all we can buy is .55 grain ammo.
What's going to be next on the BATFE agenda?
Who will we blame then?
This very forum is full of cowards, that would rather register all semi-auto, box fed rifles as NFA, than to fight to retain our GOD GIVEN RIGHT!
M4Carbine is so quick to stab other gun owners in the back.
There is no "next on the ATF agenda" this has been a rule since 1968. Anytime you make a rifle caliber pistol you can kiss the most effective versions of that ammo good bye. That is because steel cores and anything else that can be deemed "armor piercing" is in violation of the 1968 GCA.
People have been screwing with this ruling for almost 50 years and that is why a lot of steel core ammo that used to be "cheap surplus" was made illegal. M855 just got added to a long list and it wasn't necessary.
I'd love to hear about how all gun owners are going to "unite" and get it overturned but that isn't going to happen. Even if every single gun owner in the country complained, ATF isn't going to NOT enforce the 1968 GCA.
The ONLY WAY this can be reversed is to remove the "sporter clause" and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
This goes to Ryno as well.
I have shot steel with M855 and M193 side by side and the M855 did serious damage whereas the M193 barely left a mark.
Additionally 1/7 twist kills barrel life. If we are only going to shoot M193 we might as well go to 1/10 twist and get a lot more life out of the barrel. But pretty much everyone in the last 10 years has gone 1/7 twist.
How about rather than blaming other gun owners for owning want they want, let's call it what it's is.
This would have came about if it weren't for sb15, the sb15, got popular for its perceived way of "getting around the NFA", which leads us back to the NFA of 1934.
This has nothing to do with the SB15, it has everything to do with gun owners not standing together and taking the NFA for being a unconstitutional anti 2A law that it is. If we all could get in the same page with this and demand it changed and challenge it in court. We would win
But like when you are wanting to blame SB15 owners for this then it only shows your unwillingness to do so, the 2A is the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't say a damn thing about whether it be a AR, pistol or rifle, muzzle loader, lever action, hand gun, or anything else. People show be able to own what they want. You all should know this
You all should be stand behind anyone wanting to keep and bear arms, whether or not you like the arms they have chosen.
Don't blame this (potential) ban on anyone but yourself. If we all were all on the same page with it, it wouldn't exist.
It has exist since 1968. If you want to get rid of the sporter clause then great. I'm with you.
But do that FIRST. Don't make a pistol version of a rifle that will allow ATF to enforce a rule that has existed since 1968. It's stupid.
Would you rather have pistol caliber ARs or would you rather have M855? Because having one gets the other banned.
Again...we just went through the exact same thing with 7N6.
Start making a bunch of 6.8 AR pistols and watch what happens.
Tactical Fudds
There's that unity you were talking about. Tell ya what. Never mind, you guys do whatever.
I'm gonna start making 6.8 AR pistols because I can and you all should stand with me when I screw up availability for that caliber.
Combat_Diver
02-15-15, 01:17
And for so long they said it was Ball ammo and not armor piercing. With the this weeks Federal court decision on the interstate sell of handguns guess the next law suit would be against the BATFE on the "Sporting Use".
CD
The one thing most havent seemed to realize is there's a few states were M855 is legal for now.
But if the ATF has there way people in Texas,Oklahoma,Tennessee & a few other states with AP ammo bans will be criminals overnight for possession,sale etc....
We gotta make noise & let our Congress critters , media , fellow firearm enthusiast know our displeasure.
The one thing most havent seemed to realize is there's a few states were M855 is legal for now.
But if the ATF has there way people in Texas,Oklahoma,Tennessee & a few other states with AP ammo bans will be criminals overnight for possession,sale etc....
We gotta make noise & let our Congress critters , media , fellow firearm enthusiast know our displeasure.
Oklahoma's AP ammo ban is a joke. Their definition of AP ammo requires a teflon coating.
Mauser KAR98K
02-15-15, 07:55
Steyr: The problem with what you have mentioned is in the case of 7n6 and 7.62x39 was that those pistols weren't made, but proposed and never brought to market. The ATF blamed a Polish company asking for information to import an AK74 pistol, which was never imported. The 7.62x39 was due to an Olympic arms ad of a pistol they never even had built, but the ATF went ahead and banned the Chinese AP rounds.
Add that AR15 pistols have been on the market, sold by many manufacturers and retailets, aside from being built by many, many people, and done so over a few decades. M855 had an exempt status for longer. Yet, you're telling us that because of too many people making AR pistols this round is getting banned it's our fault when other pistols weren't even built or imported that AP rounds were also banned, it's also our fault?
No, sir. This is the ATF and the Obama administration doing their back door gun ban. M855 doesn't even git the ATFs of AP ammo. 7n6 had better criteria.
Instead of pointing fingers, help us. I've always valued your opinions and threads and it's hard reading what you have posted here and think you are the same member.
I've done my part, doing so as an over the road trucker. Stop making excuses folks and stand up with your fellow gun owners.
Question. Wouldn't the "larger than .22 cal." pretty much eliminated it from being classified since it is in effect a .22 bullet?
Yes, they are same caliber.
And for so long they said it was Ball ammo and not armor piercing. With the this weeks Federal court decision on the interstate sell of handguns guess the next law suit would be against the BATFE on the "Sporting Use".
CD
What we really need is a challenge to 922(l), the "sporting clause" and the GCA of '68 ban on imported title-2 firearms for civilian use.
855 sucks. But who cares? They have no right to ban it. Quit trying to place "blame" in pistol builders. That's a retarded argument for the ATF or gun owners. Fact is they don't have business dicking around with ammo. If this is allowed to stand, they will come for the rest of it in years to come.
For the record, most bubba .243s are more armor piercing than anything else. They have made .243 pistols for decades. It isn't about ammo, being armor piercing, etc. It is about control.
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855 sucks. But who cares? They have no right to ban it. Quit trying to place "blame" in pistol builders. That's a retarded argument for the ATF or gun owners. Fact is they don't have business dicking around with ammo. If this is allowed to stand, they will come for the rest of it in years to come.
For the record, most bubba .243s are more armor piercing than anything else. They have made .243 pistols for decades. It isn't about ammo, being armor piercing, etc. It is about control.
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Another spot-on post in favor of Liberty.
I still don't understand how the ATF can just do what ever they want with no restrictions on there decisions! How many have been reversed in the last few years? If remember correctly NONE! I guess when the Socialists are in charge then the Gestapo can do what ever they want! :mad:
Yes, they are same caliber.
So then it can't be defined as AP by their own regs. Not that I expect that to stop them, but still 5.56 can't be classified since it would be a .22 cal bullet. At least by my reading. I say we turn this around and make damn sure it back fires. If 5.56 can't be classified as AP then M955 should be available to the public.
Cincinnatus
02-15-15, 10:59
The problem with the argument that pistol ARs led to this is this:
Pistol ARs are just a pretense or excuse for doing this, not the cause.
Furthermore, saying that pistol ARs being commonly available drew this attention and that they are the cause misses something fundamental: that is an argument of submission and "don't let them notice."
If one is saying a right, however silly, should not be exercised lest it draw the attention of the authorities to how much freedom we still have, then you are falling into the concentration-camp/ Stockholm-syndrome mentality of , "appease the authorities." It comes from a position where one already sees rights as priveledges and not RIGHTS. I strongly reject this type of approach, and agree with Docsherm that AR pistols are gay, and the ATF is a tyrannical bunch of the worst sort imaginable, bureaucrats (far worse than jack-booted, naked tyranny, for that at least is plain for what it is).
Let the blame go towards who actually deserves it: the ATF and Obama, NOT our silly, but still fellow, gun-owners.
Mauser KAR98K
02-15-15, 11:01
If any of you have not written to the ATF or congress, do some after scrolling through this thread and links and make mention of the flaws in the law they are using to propose the ban. Then email the NRA ILA to fight this ans send contributions if you can
MountainRaven
02-15-15, 11:02
What we really need is a challenge to 922(l), the "sporting clause" and the GCA of '68 ban on imported title-2 firearms for civilian use.
Unfortunately, the firearms industry supports such things, as it makes life easier for the domestics when the foreigns have that much more to do before their firearms are legal for commercial sale. And the foreigns that have jumped through the hoops have to make up for the price of having established US-side manufacturing to make their arms legal.
ETA: I got an email from NRA-ILA about this yesterday.
Went to a local sport shop, just to see if the hoarders already hit. ...... every scrap of 855 gone. 2 days...... holy chit...
Went to a local sport shop, just to see if the hoarders already hit. ...... every scrap of 855 gone. 2 days...... holy chit...
Give it a couple days. I am sure some will be buying up 193 and trying to paint the tips green to gouge on that.
I think I will take my M855 ammo to the next fun show, being tax refund time and all. No hoarding for me. I can live with my 77gr OTM, 55gr IMI and this ammo if I have to: http://clydearmory.com/magtech-62gr-fmj.html
.46caliber
02-15-15, 12:19
The one thing most havent seemed to realize is there's a few states were M855 is legal for now.
But if the ATF has there way people in Texas,Oklahoma,Tennessee & a few other states with AP ammo bans will be criminals overnight for possession,sale etc....
We gotta make noise & let our Congress critters , media , fellow firearm enthusiast know our displeasure.
Do those states base their AP ammo regulations on the ATF's definition?
In the announcement, the ATF declares that the possession of this ammo would not make the owner guilty of a crime. They make a point of it. But if those states listed point to the ATF's list, then the change would make it criminal to possess at the state level.
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I think I will take my M855 ammo to the next fun show, being tax refund time and all. No hoarding for me. I can live with my 77gr OTM, 55gr IMI and this ammo if I have to: http://clydearmory.com/magtech-62gr-fmj.html
I think most of us could. Most here are leaning towards heavier gr 5.56 or bonded rounds of some sort for defensive purposes. With MK262 clones down to about the .50-60 cent range it is becoming a very affordable option. Even Hornady TAP can be found in the .75 a round if you look at around, if only Hornady would sell the 5.56 pressure ammo again. However, that isn't really the point here. The point is that you have the gov restricting something that really doesn't fit the definition that they are to use trying to restrict and thus restricting the availability of ammo to the people as well raising prices and causing panic buying. It is chickenshit.
Awesome. Something as stupid as an an AR pistol has ruined something as great as M855.
The AR pistol didn't have anything to do with it. This isn't about m855 or AR pistols. That is an excuse to do what they want to do; restrict firearms and ammunition to the masses.
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Outlander Systems
02-15-15, 12:36
Remember fellas...the government gets its power from us! Not the other way around.
We ALLOW them to do what they do.
This isn't about pistol ARs and hair-splitting; it's about raw, naked tyranny.
Remember fellas...the government gets its power from us! Not the other way around.
We ALLOW them to do what they do.
This isn't about pistol ARs and hair-splitting; it's about raw, naked tyranny.
Or to break things down further. It has nothing to do with guns, or in this case ammo, and everything to do with control.
If the ATF is so worried about the AP abilities of M855 ammo, then why try and take away my option of buying different threat levels of body armor for my own safety, just like law enforcement ?
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Rep-Mike-Honda-Introduces-Bill-Banning-Civilians-from-Buying-Body-Armor-270223431.html
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/Bulletproof-Blankets-Released-for-Students-262542131.html
If the ATF is so worried about the AP abilities of M855 ammo, then why try and take away my option of buying different threat levels of body armor for my own safety, just like law enforcement ?
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Rep-Mike-Honda-Introduces-Bill-Banning-Civilians-from-Buying-Body-Armor-270223431.html
It makes you easier to incapacitate should sh** go sideways at some point? God for bid peons be able to protect themselves from those whom have sworn an oath to protect your/our civil liberties?
Oh and because lawful gun owners are being regarded as a criminal element as well.
I know you were being sarcastic in your post but I couldn't help myself.....ugh
Eurodriver
02-15-15, 13:17
50% of AIMs WOLF GOLD ammo has evaporated since 5pm eastern yesterday.
It's honest to goodness like people never ever learn.
50% of AIMs WOLF GOLD ammo has evaporated since 5pm eastern yesterday.
It's honest to goodness like people never ever learn.
SGAMMO had 100+ cases of M855 DENEX yesterday morning at about 0800. By 1100 is was all gone.
AIM had 1000rd cases of Prvi M193 for $334 shipped in the lower 48. Gone by early afternoon.
Then there is CTD.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-DKG-A5569
The same 900rd cans I bought from SGAMMO for $340 each are $840 at CTD today... LMFAO.
SGAMMO had 100+ cases of M855 DENEX yesterday morning at about 0800. By 1100 is was all gone.
AIM had 1000rd cases of Prvi M193 for $334 shipped in the lower 48. Gone by early afternoon.
Then there is CTD.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-DKG-A5569
The same 900rd cans I bought from SGAMMO for $340 each are $840 at CTD today... LMFAO.
Does anyone even shop at CTD anymore after the shit they pulled during the last panic? I mean I wouldn't even wipe my ass with their magazines.
Does anyone even shop at CTD anymore after the shit they pulled during the last panic? I mean I wouldn't even wipe my ass with their magazines.
I just bought a case from them for $353 bout an hour ago. Shoulda bought note cause its all gone now.
Eurodriver
02-15-15, 14:20
SGAMMO had 100+ cases of M855 DENEX yesterday morning at about 0800. By 1100 is was all gone.
AIM had 1000rd cases of Prvi M193 for $334 shipped in the lower 48. Gone by early afternoon.
Then there is CTD.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-DKG-A5569
The same 900rd cans I bought from SGAMMO for $340 each are $840 at CTD today... LMFAO.
That's nuts, and PRVI193 and Wolf GOLD aren't even affected by this "ban".
People are crazy! It's like lemmings following each other off a cliff.
Robb Jensen
02-15-15, 14:41
"Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Imagine if you could only practice the religion of your choice at sporting events, you could only speak your mind at a sporting event, you could only print publications with whatever you wanted for sporting purposes and could only peacefully assemble with like minded people at sporting events...
Yes "Sporting Purposes" has about as much to do with the 2nd Amendment as it does for the 1st Amendment.
It has exist since 1968. If you want to get rid of the sporter clause then great. I'm with you.
But do that FIRST. Don't make a pistol version of a rifle that will allow ATF to enforce a rule that has existed since 1968. It's stupid.
Would you rather have pistol caliber ARs or would you rather have M855? Because having one gets the other banned.
I'm saying every one should own what they want. Period.
Would I rather have M855 or AR pistols? It doesn't matter, we shouldn't be willing to make compromises when it comes to the 2A. I'm surprised that you are.
We all should fight for both. It seems like the only people lately wanting to fight for our 2A rights is Sig, they're the only ones willing to take them to court...I just want to point out that they aren't even a American born company.
Why don't we have a coalition of Gun companies and all who want to see the 2A prosper take the ATF to court?
Where's the NRA stand and fight?
Where the gun owners banding together to fix this? Oh yea we are placing blame on each other, rather than standing as one.
But your answer is compromise, or am I wrong?
Support fellow gun owners. We all should be on the same team.
"Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Imagine if you could only practice the religion of your choice at sporting events, you could only speak your mind at a sporting event, you could only print publications with whatever you wanted for sporting purposes and could only peacefully assemble with like minded people at sporting events...
Yes "Sporting Purposes" has about as much to do with the 2nd Amendment as it does for the 1st Amendment.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m119/HD1911/Mobile%20Uploads/CB8D0512-1147-4F2C-8015-53B8E17AE565_zpsazqbpegm.gif
That's nuts, and PRVI193 and Wolf GOLD aren't even affected by this "ban".
People are crazy! It's like lemmings following each other off a cliff.
Pretty silly. I'm just kicking myself for not buying a few cases of the IMI m193 that Widener's had....$349 for 1200 rounds. I did go ahead and buy two cases of PRVI m193 from SG Ammo about an hour ago. It is now out of stock. Yes, I bought during a panic. I did need some more 55gr fodder and the price was reasonable, so why not....
I do find it amusing how strongly the Obama administration can trigger massive sales runs in the firearm/ammunition industry. Retailers who have probably had very sluggish ammo sales for the past two years just saw a massive run on sales.
Maybe it is their way of boosting the economy.
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Steyr: The problem with what you have mentioned is in the case of 7n6 and 7.62x39 was that those pistols weren't made, but proposed and never brought to market.
Really? I can't tell you how many AK47 and AK74 pistols I've personally seen. What do you think a Draco or a PAP is?
I'm saying every one should own what they want. Period.
Yes, they "should." But there are a LOT of things that "should be" but "aren't."
Right now there are rules in place, and if you are going to play the game you should at least understand the rules in place and the consequences.
As we are currently in no position to change the rules, we have only done it once since 1968 and that the FOPA 86 and it was the last time we made any rule changes. So in the last "almost 50 years" we've made successful rules changes ONE TIME and it came with a price.
So why people continually screw around with the rules in place, with complete prior knowledge of the outcome is beyond me.
People just "do shit" apparently without any understanding of the 1968 GCA and the "sporter clause" and then have the nerve to be surprised when something like this happens. These people are no better than those who request clarification letters from ATF on things that have already been determined by existing laws and definitions.
If you give ATF a violation of the "stated rules" of the 1968 GCA you'd be a fool to think they wouldn't act on it.
It shouldn't be that way, but it is, and it has been that way for a long time.
The problem is these stupid dicks have nothing better to do than sit around thinking of loopholes so they can ban something. The problem is too many people let them come up with these "rules" and nobody had the courage to do anything about it. Your problem is that you want to sit down and play a game of cards not realizing the dealer already stacked the deck. Don't try to place blame on anything other than a tyrannical government.
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Eurodriver
02-15-15, 16:02
If there were no AR pistols, M855 would be legal forever.
If there were no AK Pistols, 7n6 would be legal forever.
If there were no tyrannical politicians, all the above would be legal forever.
Treat the disease, not the symptoms.
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wildcard600
02-15-15, 17:00
If there were no AR pistols, M855 would be legal forever.
If there were no AK Pistols, 7n6 would be legal forever.
If there were not idiots and assholes being elected into public office, M855 would be legal forever.
If there were not idiots and assholes being elected into public office, 7N6 would be legal forever.
So, how much of this sudden BATFE change of heart on M855 is retaliation for this:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/liberty-ammunition-wins-patent-lawsuit-armys-m855a1-ammo/
U.S. Federal Court of Claims Judge Charles F. Lettow filed a decision Dec. 19 in which he found the federal government had infringed on Liberty’s patent for its copper-core, steel-tipped ammunition. Lettow ordered the government to pay two levels of damages, the first being a $15.6 million lump payment. The government was also ordered to pay a 1.4-cent royalty on every bullet it purchases and receives for use. It will make those payments until Liberty’s patent expires in 2027.
Something smells rotten here... :(
JBecker 72
02-15-15, 17:14
And the green tip gougers are popping up in classified sections all over gun boards. :lol:
That's nuts, and PRVI193 and Wolf GOLD aren't even affected by this "ban".
People are crazy! It's like lemmings following each other off a cliff.
Euro, yesterday morning I read your post asking if you should buy 3 or 4 cases of M855. Right after I read your post it got me too thinking and I went to Widener's and ordered 2 cases of it. By afternoon it was ALL gone. You were mulling it over yourself!
You snooze you lose.
People just "do shit" apparently without any understanding of the 1968 GCA and the "sporter clause" and then have the nerve to be surprised when something like this happens. These people are no better than those who request clarification letters from ATF on things that have already been determined by existing laws and definitions.
I agree with you most always but we're gonna part ways on this one.
Not sure what you mean by "do shit" but if you mean merely owning an AR pistol then tough shit, I own a few. So what? I'm getting tired of being blamed for owning a LEGAL item. I'm not posting idiotic videos or pics of myself doing things that might be considered walking a thin line. I just own them and shoot them; how I do it is my damn business since I have a home range and I don't shoot with ATF agents or do the above-mentioned social media buffoonery.
Get off this finger-pointing bullshit and point where it belongs to be pointed: squarely at the assholes at the ATF.
This is getting really old really fast........
If there were no AR pistols, M855 would be legal forever.
If there were no AK Pistols, 7n6 would be legal forever.
Bullshit.
So, how much of this sudden BATFE change of heart on M855 is retaliation for this:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/liberty-ammunition-wins-patent-lawsuit-armys-m855a1-ammo/
U.S. Federal Court of Claims Judge Charles F. Lettow filed a decision Dec. 19 in which he found the federal government had infringed on Liberty’s patent for its copper-core, steel-tipped ammunition. Lettow ordered the government to pay two levels of damages, the first being a $15.6 million lump payment. The government was also ordered to pay a 1.4-cent royalty on every bullet it purchases and receives for use. It will make those payments until Liberty’s patent expires in 2027.
Something smells rotten here... :(
No, it couldn't be that. It's the idiotic assholes who own AR pistols. THEY are responsible for ALL this. :rolleyes:
Mauser KAR98K
02-15-15, 18:33
Really? I can't tell you how many AK47 and AK74 pistols I've personally seen. What do you think a Draco or a PAP is?
They are precedent now since the AP ban. I'm talking about the way the rounds were banned due to the mere mention of a "pistol"being made or looking to be imported. The ban on the 7.62x39 AP ammo from China in the early 90s was due to Olympic Arms brochure mentioning a pistol to chamber the 7.62x39, was not made. ATF took that and ran.
This situation has M855 being excluded while we have seen over ten years of AR pistols on the market. I honestly think the way 7n6 was banned due to an importer looking into importing an AK74 pistol, that never fididd, and ATF tested the waters to see where it would go.
And here we are. This time it is a domestic round for a very popular platform in the US.
Up until now, my thought if ATF excluding M855 also meant excluding it with AR pistols. On the part I was wrong. Considering the amount of AR pistols in circulation for so long, I wonder if many others like myself had thought the same...until now.
Either way, it is an ecrouchment and a back door way to ban. With the momentum and uptoar, and GOP led congress, this is the best time to fight not only the sporting clause, but also take the ATF down a beg. We have a national ccw reciprocal bill has been introduced, and Marco Rubio has brought up legislation to stop Operation Choke hold. The cards are in our favor. We can push our reps aND the NRA to attach amendments to close the sporting clause, or prohibited the ATF from banning M855.
So instead of doubling down on AR pistol owners, or consigning that M855 is done for, fight this while we have the edge with us this time since the 6 years we have been enduring this progressive regime.
What have you done to preserve your freedom, and others like you?
Eurodriver
02-15-15, 18:40
Euro, yesterday morning I read your post asking if you should buy 3 or 4 cases of M855. Right after I read your post it got me too thinking and I went to Widener's and ordered 2 cases of it. By afternoon it was ALL gone. You were mulling it over yourself!
You snooze you lose.
Who said I snoozed? ;)
No, it couldn't be that. It's the idiotic assholes who own AR pistols. THEY are responsible for ALL this. :rolleyes:
Bullshit.
Glad you're coming around.
Tyranny plain and simple. Until we as a United group stop allowing it; our "permissions"- because let's face it we have allowed our rights to be turned into permissions at this point; will Continue to be slowly and systematically widdled away through any means WE allow them to- while we bicker amongst ourselves, blame each other and just continue our reactionary bullshit lets play it safe I've got too much to lose asshatery.
We need to come together, get beyond this "that gun owner did it not me" bullshit and get some skin in the game.
I mean come on, we get stripped of piece after piece and just take it in the ass; and this is the most base and legitimate RIGHT we as free men and woman have; what will it take to collectively wake up from this slumber remember what liberty is and how to fvcking keep it!!
I'm sickened by the infighting. It's as if we are marionettes dancing when our strings are plucked. King Obama and company laughs at us while they orchestrate the fundamental changing of America and the destruction of all that is good, just and right.
We are pathetic for not demanding our freedom and not giving an inch. There is no compromise when it comes to rights. Sadly we as once free men have forgotten this and traded it in for some "safety" and "decedance" in our easy lived selfish little lifestyles.
PatrioticDisorder
02-15-15, 18:52
They are precedent now since the AP ban. I'm talking about the way the rounds were banned due to the mere mention of a "pistol"being made or looking to be imported. The ban on the 7.62x39 AP ammo from China in the early 90s was due to Olympic Arms brochure mentioning a pistol to chamber the 7.62x39, was not made. ATF took that and ran.
This situation has M855 being excluded while we have seen over ten years of AR pistols on the market. I honestly think the way 7n6 was banned due to an importer looking into importing an AK74 pistol, that never fididd, and ATF tested the waters to see where it would go.
And here we are. This time it is a domestic round for a very popular platform in the US.
Up until now, my thought if ATF excluding M855 also meant excluding it with AR pistols. On the part I was wrong. Considering the amount of AR pistols in circulation for so long, I wonder if many others like myself had thought the same...until now.
Either way, it is an ecrouchment and a back door way to ban. With the momentum and uptoar, and GOP led congress, this is the best time to fight not only the sporting clause, but also take the ATF down a beg. We have a national ccw reciprocal bill has been introduced, and Marco Rubio has brought up legislation to stop Operation Choke hold. The cards are in our favor. We can push our reps aND the NRA to attach amendments to close the sporting clause, or prohibited the ATF from banning M855.
So instead of doubling down on AR pistol owners, or consigning that M855 is done for, fight this while we have the edge with us this time since the 6 years we have been enduring this progressive regime.
What have you done to preserve your freedom, and others like you?
We still need a staunch supporter of 2a in the Oval Office to make that happen. The republican primary will be make or break for doing away with the bullshit. If 2016 goes the right way, I could see a single bill potentially destroy most of GCA '68, the shitty parts of FOPA '86 & maybe even gut NFA '34. The trend seems to be every 20-30 years for a major piece of gun legislation to be put through, maybe we can make a substantial gain in rights.
Mauser KAR98K
02-15-15, 18:57
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj
Online petition.
platoonDaddy
02-15-15, 19:01
Went to local gun show this afternoon and the seller of M855 told me that his supplier raised the cost 40%. Dang and double dang.
Went to local gun show this afternoon and the seller of M855 told me that his supplier raised the cost 40%. Dang and double dang.
I would not be surprised to see it going for $800- $1000 or more per thousand in the next month or three. And we all know, some people will buy it with no arm twisting.
.........................
Coal Dragger
02-15-15, 19:50
In the ammo hoarder's tradition I cleaned out the local Cabela's of Winchester M855. 420 rounds to add to what I have already.
I really only like the stuff because it is consistently accurate for the price. Now that Uncle Sugar doesn't want me to have any I want it more than ever. In all reality I'll probably stop shooting the stuff until BATF-E gives up on banning it, or an alternative of similar quality appears.
Mauser KAR98K
02-15-15, 21:29
Watch MAC nails this: it's all about control.
http://youtu.be/6PaIIChRMBw
This is the best case for the NRA, HIS and ammo manufacturers to sue the ATF. They are not following the law but making their own
How can we get MAC on the board of directors to the NRA?
"Intent" to be fired from a rifle doesn't matter for m855 according to the ATF. However, your intent to "circumvent a tax stamp" matters for a Sig Brace. Because the Sig Brace was intended to be used as a brace, that's the only way it can be used. Sounds like somebody has intended to shove their head up their ass.
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Mauser KAR98K
02-15-15, 22:01
"Intent" to be fired from a rifle doesn't matter for m855 according to the ATF. However, your intent to "circumvent a tax stamp" matters for a Sig Brace. Because the Sig Brace was intended to be used as a brace, that's the only way it can be used. Sounds like somebody has intended to shove their head up their ass.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From the PDF of the proposal:
Determining the “likely use” in the general community of any type of ammunition
necessarily involves examination of the cartridges in which the armor piercing projectiles can be
loaded, and the handguns that are readily available to accept those cartridges. More specifically,
the characteristics of the handgun or handguns in which a specific armor piercing projectile may
be used will generally determine that projectile’s “likely use” in the general community. When
the only readily available handgun that can accept a cartridge containing the projectile is
objectively and primarily sporting, it may reasonably be inferred that the likely use of that
projectile will also be objectively and primarily sporting.
How many AR owners shoot M855 out of their rifles compared to AR pistols?
Mauser KAR98K
02-15-15, 22:17
This is the part in the ATF's proposal that really frightens me:
While the design of most single shot handguns shows that they are primarily intended to
be used for sporting purposes, this is not necessarily the case of handguns with larger
ammunition capacities. Revolvers and semi-automatic handguns, which are designed to be
loaded with multiple rounds of ammunition that can be fired and reloaded quickly, differ
substantially in design and function from single shot handguns. The likely use of revolvers and
semi-automatic handguns in the community varies, and the projectiles they use are, in many
cases, interchangeable among models designed to use the same or similar calibers.
Consequently, it is not possible to conclude that revolvers and semi-automatic handguns as a
class are “primarily intended” for use in sporting purposes. Similarly, most handguns designed
to be loaded with two-rounds of ammunition are small-frame, easily concealable, derringer-type
firearms. While two-shot derringers may share certain design characteristics with single-shot
firearms (for example, a break-open loading function), they are not useful as sporting firearms.
It continues from page 13:
Consequently, ammunition for two-shot and semi-automatic handguns cannot be characterized as
“primarily intended” for use in sporting purposes. To achieve consistent application of the
sporting purpose exemption in light of these considerations, ATF has determined that the
exemption will presumptively apply to projectiles loaded into cartridges for which the only
handgun that is readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade is a single shot
handgun other than a pocket pistol or derringer-type handgun. ATF recognizes that there will be
some cartridges currently manufactured using non-restricted materials (e.g. lead or brass) that
have been used by hunters and target shooters for sporting purposes, that if manufactured from
listed materials, will not be eligible for exemption under the framework. These cartridges will
remain available in the non-restricted materials, as they are today.
Plain speak, anyone?
The whole lot of them can get bent.
Why don't they just come out and say the possession of any firearm suggests criminal intent on behalf of the possessor ..
Free men shoot what they damn well want out of a pistol or rifle.
Better re-zero our M4's for M193?
NWcityguy2
02-15-15, 22:28
So, how much of this sudden BATFE change of heart on M855 is retaliation for this:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/liberty-ammunition-wins-patent-lawsuit-armys-m855a1-ammo/
U.S. Federal Court of Claims Judge Charles F. Lettow filed a decision Dec. 19 in which he found the federal government had infringed on Liberty’s patent for its copper-core, steel-tipped ammunition. Lettow ordered the government to pay two levels of damages, the first being a $15.6 million lump payment. The government was also ordered to pay a 1.4-cent royalty on every bullet it purchases and receives for use. It will make those payments until Liberty’s patent expires in 2027.
Something smells rotten here... :(
That's for M855A1, not M855. They are two completely difference issues.
Better re-zero our M4's for M193?
A change many BDC's.
This stuff is getting insane. I swear they find stuff to make up reasons to ban it. Advanced Trolling.
I want to remind everybody that this isn't a ban it's a proposal to ban the BATFE waiting to hear from all citizens White House petition wasn't the original intended way of getting our voices is heard by the BATFE email fax and mailed in letters is the correct way to respond to this.
I have already sent multiple email addresses from all that I have including some of my wifes.
Have you sent yours?
Please for all our sake send at least a single God damned Email, it could be as simple as you want just tell them you don't support it.
Mauser KAR98K
02-15-15, 23:10
That's for M855A1, not M855. They are two completely difference issues.
I want to remind everybody that this isn't a ban it's a proposal to ban the BATFE waiting to hear from all citizens White House petition wasn't the original intended way of getting our voices is heard by the BATFE email fax and mailed in letters is the correct way to respond to this.
I have already sent multiple email addresses from all that I have including some of my wifes.
Have you sent yours?
Please for all our sake send at least a single God damned Email, it could be as simple as you want just tell them you don't support it.
We need to do a row call on the forum!
Moose-Knuckle
02-16-15, 01:06
Then there is CTD.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-DKG-A5569
The same 900rd cans I bought from SGAMMO for $340 each are $840 at CTD today... LMFAO.
From the link:
Our Low Price: $840.00
:lol:
I agree with you most always but we're gonna part ways on this one.
Not sure what you mean by "do shit" but if you mean merely owning an AR pistol then tough shit, I own a few. So what? I'm getting tired of being blamed for owning a LEGAL item. I'm not posting idiotic videos or pics of myself doing things that might be considered walking a thin line. I just own them and shoot them; how I do it is my damn business since I have a home range and I don't shoot with ATF agents or do the above-mentioned social media buffoonery.
Get off this finger-pointing bullshit and point where it belongs to be pointed: squarely at the assholes at the ATF.
This is getting really old really fast........
I'm going to try it one more time.
There really isn't anything wrong with an AR pistol by itself. I think a person should be able to own whatever they want. If I can legally own a MP5, you should be able to legally own a AR pistol. My criticism isn't one of configuration, practicality or quality of build.
However, since 1968 there has been a law on the books regarding armor piercing ammunition. And basically any handgun chambered for a rifle round qualifies. And since 1968 one caliber after another has fallen victim to this "existing law" because somebody had to make a handgun that magically rendered the rifle caliber it was chambered for "armor piercing" ammo.
If nobody made an AK pistol in 762x39 we'd have been able to import a lot more cheap Chinese steel core ammo cheap.
If nobody made an AK pistol in 545x39 we'd still be able to get 7N6 ammo cheap.
If nobody made a .308 pistol we'd still be able to get steel core surplus 762x51 ammo cheap.
And lots of places were making cheap M855.
Aren't ammo prices already high enough? Was it really a good idea to give ATF everything they needed to enforce an existing law?
Philosophically I think it's all bullshit, of course I feel the same way about the fact that we haven't been able to import a PPK since 1968 because of the same damn law. But it is a law, and we only hurt ourselves.
I honestly HOPE that we somehow prevent ATF from applying the existing law in this case, but I have my doubts. Hell I'd like to see this be the straw the broke the camels back and the NRA finally gets off it's ass and goes after the "sporter clause." It's been 30 damn years since we went after provisions of the 1968 gun control act.
Maybe this will be the time to take another stab at it. But honestly I think we are just going to lose yet another source of affordable ammunition.
Right now we should be importing CHEAP military surplus ammo now that the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan has been drawn down. But unfortunately Clinton wrote a law and he largely relied on provisions of the 1968 Gun Control Act as a basis to restrict it's importation and sale to the private market.
PatrioticDisorder
02-16-15, 06:10
This is the part in the ATF's proposal that really frightens me:
It continues from page 13:
Plain speak, anyone?
Allow me to translate, "Obama said he would go after guns under the radar, we plan to push as far as we possibly can with this and we are laying the ground work to do just that. We will ban as much as we possibly can, which we intend will be a lot. When we are done, the implimentation of 41p will bbe the least of your worries."
Who the **** does the ATF think they are to determine what "sporting" is and define only single shot handguns as sporting? Ever hear of three gun? Where the **** does the constitution say anything about sporting!? It says to be free you have to be armed. The reason for firearms is to protect freedom. That must be president girly-boys issue; and the atf's. They are a threat to freedom.
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PatrioticDisorder
02-16-15, 06:45
Who the **** does the ATF think they are to determine what "sporting" is and define only single shot handguns as sporting? Ever hear of three gun? Where the **** does the constitution say anything about sporting!? It says to be free you have to be armed. The reason for firearms is to protect freedom. That must be president girly-boys issue; and the atf's. They are a threat to freedom.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It isn't the rank & file in the agency, my experience with them has been pleasant. This is a few assholes at the top who were appointed as Obama minions to carry out the will of the self anointed dictator to push through is gun ban agenda "under the radar."
I hope everyone recognizes the very suggestive implications of this. The original intent of the ban on armor piercing ammunition was for ammunition designed to be fired from a handgun and pierce soft body armor. Was 5.56 NATO originally designed to be fired from a handgun? Obviously not. Yes it will pierce soft body armor, so will any 5.56/.223 round. If this BATFE ban on m855 stands, they will have grounds to ban 5.56/.223 ammo. I hope you all are contacting the BATFE, and congress. This cannot stand.
This is a long thread, so I apologize if anyone mentioned this previously.
I'm going to try it one more time.
There really isn't anything wrong with an AR pistol by itself. I think a person should be able to own whatever they want. If I can legally own a MP5, you should be able to legally own a AR pistol. My criticism isn't one of configuration, practicality or quality of build.
However, since 1968 there has been a law on the books regarding armor piercing ammunition. And basically any handgun chambered for a rifle round qualifies. And since 1968 one caliber after another has fallen victim to this "existing law" because somebody had to make a handgun that magically rendered the rifle caliber it was chambered for "armor piercing" ammo.
If nobody made an AK pistol in 762x39 we'd have been able to import a lot more cheap Chinese steel core ammo cheap.
If nobody made an AK pistol in 545x39 we'd still be able to get 7N6 ammo cheap.
If nobody made a .308 pistol we'd still be able to get steel core surplus 762x51 ammo cheap.
And lots of places were making cheap M855.
Aren't ammo prices already high enough? Was it really a good idea to give ATF everything they needed to enforce an existing law?
Philosophically I think it's all bullshit, of course I feel the same way about the fact that we haven't been able to import a PPK since 1968 because of the same damn law. But it is a law, and we only hurt ourselves.
I honestly HOPE that we somehow prevent ATF from applying the existing law in this case, but I have my doubts. Hell I'd like to see this be the straw the broke the camels back and the NRA finally gets off it's ass and goes after the "sporter clause." It's been 30 damn years since we went after provisions of the 1968 gun control act.
Maybe this will be the time to take another stab at it. But honestly I think we are just going to lose yet another source of affordable ammunition.
Right now we should be importing CHEAP military surplus ammo now that the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan has been drawn down. But unfortunately Clinton wrote a law and he largely relied on provisions of the 1968 Gun Control Act as a basis to restrict it's importation and sale to the private market.
Fair enough.
I did a quick search on this to see if it has been posted but to be honest it doesn't hurt to post this again anyway.The link below is a petition you may sign if you are opposed to the BATF banning XM855. EMAIL IT TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS.
Thanks.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj
Eurodriver
02-16-15, 09:16
What kind of search did you do?!?!
And this ban is for M855. XM855 Is a federal brand of ammo.
What kind of search did you do?!?!
And this ban is for M855. XM855 Is a federal brand of ammo.
sorry for the ammo confusion. as for the search....like a said, it wont hurt to post it again.
Signed this yesterday and spread it to some non forum members as well.
Signed this yesterday and spread it to some non forum members as well.
cool thanks. the way I see it is if we are lucky we could get 1/3 of the members to sign this. that should make a difference.
Phillygunguy
02-16-15, 09:58
I just sent an email to the ATF expressed my opposition to the ban, and also signed the petition floating around.
not sure what else to do but the NRA needs to get their ass in gear on this one, and so does the GOA
I don't think they really have much choice, as this is due to the current proliferation of AR pistols and the existing state and federal laws prohibiting AP ammo in handguns...
Averageman
02-16-15, 10:12
I just sent an email to the ATF expressed my opposition to the ban, and also signed the petition floating around.
not sure what else to do but the NRA needs to get their ass in gear on this one, and so does the GOA
AGREED !
The thing I like better about GOA is they are usually pretty quick about getting things rolling. I imagine we will see something in two days.
I don't think they really have much choice, as this is due to the current proliferation of AR pistols and the existing state and federal laws prohibiting AP ammo in handguns...
see thats the thing, choice.....what they don't realize is we are the ones that are supposed to be directing them. I know im preaching to the quire but its the truth. even if it might not help this particular situation we still need to make our voices loud and clear. what they are doing by getting their foot further and further in the door with each small bill, word change, law and executive order we need to be doing right back to them. slowly but surely it can be done but it take persistence.. as they know.
and yes, AR pistols are becoming a very touchy subject now. as politics always is though, the focus will move to something else eventually (not guns) and we need to help it move. remember when guns were hardly in the news....it will happen again eventually weather we keep our rights or not.
The petition isn't the route that we should go in the original letter that ATF sent out a few days ago we must email fax or mail and letters directly to the AFF I don't think that they'll pay too much attention to the White House petition
Start calling them and do the email.
ATF email: APAComments@atf.gov
Fax: (202) 648-9741.
Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070.
ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments. Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):
Also sign this.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...ition/XrvVh1cj
E-mail sent, letters being written for my Congressmen this afternoon.
This is a fight we have to win.
The petition isn't the route that we should go in the original letter that ATF sent out a few days ago we must email fax or mail and letters directly to the AFF I don't think that they'll pay too much attention to the White House petition
Actually, this ridiculousness should be countered with the "kitchen sink" approach. Sign the petition, write your congressmen and senators, absolutely comment in the Federal Register with a reasoned explanation that this proposal is contradictory to their own internal policies and definitions, talk about it on every forum and anytime you talk to shooters, etc., etc., etc. We need to inundate the enemy with so much negative pressure that they fear going forward with their plan. They may do it anyway, but there should be repercussions. :(
Ned Christiansen
02-16-15, 11:23
Agreed. Sign the petition but don't then declare to yourself that you've done your part. Make your voice heard in as many places as possible.
I don't think they really have much choice, as this is due to the current proliferation of AR pistols and the existing state and federal laws prohibiting AP ammo in handguns...
Don't be so sure about that:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-m855a1-ammo/
Liberty Ammunition Wins Patent Lawsuit over Army’s M855A1 Ammo
By Nick Leghorn on January 12, 2015
Always look for the hidden motive. In this case, the hidden motive is a legitimate avenue to attack the proposal.
Anytime this kind of tyranny pops up, I think... Why not do what the lunatic Gays or Illegals do and just go full obnoxious demonstration mode?
The society corroders seem to know how to get shit done.
(I suppose our lunatics are the Open carry goobers and do more damage than good since the media is already on the opposite side)
brickboy240
02-16-15, 11:27
Send a letter to the ATF and I bet you get put on a special list.
Hey...these days...is that really paranoia?
Today it is armor piercing...tomorrow it will be all FMJs.
Stock up accordingly if you have not already done so.
Send a letter to the ATF and I bet you get put on a special list.
Hey...these days...is that really paranoia?
Today it is armor piercing...tomorrow it will be all FMJs.
Stock up accordingly if you have not already done so.
Relax we are all already on it.
No point in worry about it, Got a CCW? NFA items? Ever filled out a 4473? Member of this forum?
If they have/had a compiled a list, we are all there so no worries, it wouldn't be hard for them to do so.
I've often tried to explain this to other pro-2A people, in many places. One place the liberals have an edge is in the protest/social-media sphere. You have to get the word out by as many avenues as possible, even if you aren't in their target demographic.
https://www.votervoice.net/mobile/IFC/campaigns/38753/respond
A little humor for y'all:
"Selling green tip ammo at the fun show"
http://i.imgur.com/tpYAFrr.jpg
Mauser KAR98K
02-16-15, 11:38
I don't think they really have much choice, as this is due to the current proliferation of AR pistols and the existing state and federal laws prohibiting AP ammo in handguns...
Go back a few pages and watch the video MAC did. This ban is very arbitrary, and they are making up rules as they go. Rifle ammunition is supposed to be completely exempted, coming from the representative who formulated the language back in 1986.
That's for M855A1, not M855. They are two completely difference issues.
Not if you think about it from a chess standpoint. It's a bloodletting attack on the company that won the lawsuit. It may not effect how much the government owes Liberty, but it WILL harm Liberty's bottom line to remove that revenue stream from them. What is it that Valerie Jarrett said when Zero got reelected??? :(
I want to remind everybody that this isn't a ban it's a proposal to ban the BATFE waiting to hear from all citizens White House petition wasn't the original intended way of getting our voices is heard by the BATFE email fax and mailed in letters is the correct way to respond to this.
I have already sent multiple email addresses from all that I have including some of my wifes.
Have you sent yours?
Please for all our sake send at least a single God damned Email, it could be as simple as you want just tell them you don't support it.
The absolute best ways to counter this are twofold. First, comment in the Federal Register!!! They're required to review EVERY submission there, and respond to the ones that are well reasoned and attack the legal basis and public harm of the proposal. They don't have to do squat with letters and emails sent directly to them, but they have no control over the Federal Register. Second, write those letters and emails to your congressmen and senators. Get them on board to attack BATFE directly. Those letters sent to staunchly pro-gun legislators will do the most good, as they will want to reinforce their 2A creds.
But I say do it all. Sign the petition, comment in the register, write the letters, send emails to the NRA, trade groups and manufacturers to get behind this with money and lawyers. Talk to everyone you know who is into shooting and tell them the same. Keep it at the top of the page on forums, so more members will look at it. Throw the kitchen sink at BATFE and let them know they have foes on this.
Threads merged.
Nominations for a sticky thread specifically geared towards rational and reasoned comments to submit? I'd like to see a compendium of good counterpoints on how their proposal runs counter to their own definitions, and how it appears unethical in light of the court judgement against the government on M855A1. That would make it easier for all members to submit comments and write to their legislators.
Averageman
02-16-15, 11:42
Go back a few pages and watch the video MAC did. This ban is very arbitrary, and they are making up rules as they go. Rifle ammunition is supposed to be completely exempted, coming from the representative who formulated the language back in 1986.
I dont think they care, but I did send a letter.
I give a damn about a list, I'm sure I was on it for my shopping habits, comming here to read and post and being a vet. All those un American things I do.
Doc Safari
02-16-15, 11:42
Not trying to be a hater, but is there any historical evidence that protesting one of these proposed bans has EVER prevented it?
The problem is we need a new strategy.
While ATF may be lashing out because the .gov got it's pee-pee smacked in the Liberty lawsuit over M855A1, that and regular M855 are two different rounds. M855A1 is not available to the general public anyway (or it's not supposed to be in civilian channels).
Mauser KAR98K
02-16-15, 12:05
Not if you think about it from a chess standpoint. It's a bloodletting attack on the company that won the lawsuit. It may not effect how much the government owes Liberty, but it WILL harm Liberty's bottom line to remove that revenue stream from them. What is it that Valerie Jarrett said when Zero got reelected??? :(
The absolute best ways to counter this are twofold. First, comment in the Federal Register!!! They're required to review EVERY submission there, and respond to the ones that are well reasoned and attack the legal basis and public harm of the proposal. They don't have to do squat with letters and emails sent directly to them, but they have no control over the Federal Register. Second, write those letters and emails to your congressmen and senators. Get them on board to attack BATFE directly. Those letters sent to staunchly pro-gun legislators will do the most good, as they will want to reinforce their 2A creds.
But I say do it all. Sign the petition, comment in the register, write the letters, send emails to the NRA, trade groups and manufacturers to get behind this with money and lawyers. Talk to everyone you know who is into shooting and tell them the same. Keep it at the top of the page on forums, so more members will look at it. Throw the kitchen sink at BATFE and let them know they have foes on this.
Nominations for a sticky thread specifically geared towards rational and reasoned comments to submit? I'd like to see a compendium of good counterpoints on how their proposal runs counter to their own definitions, and how it appears unethical in light of the court judgement against the government on M855A1. That would make it easier for all members to submit comments and write to their legislators.
What's the difference between the APACOMMENTS@ATF.GOV, and the federal registry?
Eurodriver
02-16-15, 12:12
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?165459-Federal-american-eagle-XM855-450-rounds
Sold 450 rounds for $285 almost immediately.
What do you guys think I can get for the same brand and amount of ammo? $500? Do the rules on M4C prohibit price gouging?
I wish the ATF agents that lurk on the forums would chime in
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?165459-Federal-american-eagle-XM855-450-rounds
Sold 450 rounds for $285 almost immediately.
What do you guys think I can get for the same brand and amount of ammo? $500? Do the rules on M4C prohibit price gouging?
:stop:
.........................
SGAMMO had 100+ cases of M855 DENEX yesterday morning at about 0800. By 1100 is was all gone.
AIM had 1000rd cases of Prvi M193 for $334 shipped in the lower 48. Gone by early afternoon.
Then there is CTD.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/8-DKG-A5569
The same 900rd cans I bought from SGAMMO for $340 each are $840 at CTD today... LMFAO.
They sold out...wtf I wanna meet the guy that bought it I got some I'm willing to dump on him for some CTD pricing.
Eurodriver
02-16-15, 12:28
If the ban goes into effect, we'll eventually see $1- $3 /rd.
Post it for $300.00 - 350.00. It's a free market.
They sold out...wtf I wanna meet the guy that bought it I got some I'm willing to dump on him for some CTD pricing.
I just watched my stash of M855 increase in value by 1000%. This is awesome.
What's the difference between the APACOMMENTS@ATF.GOV, and the federal registry?
The Federal Register is a publicly viewable repository for comments to any Notice of Proposed Rule Making. Your comments there will be viewed by all who have an interest in this NPRM, your comments directly to ATF are not. Further, while ATF may treat comments to ATF.GOV the same as NPRM comments, that would be an internal policy, not a requirement by GAO on all federal agencies.
.........................
They sold out...wtf I wanna meet the guy that bought it I got some I'm willing to dump on him for some CTD pricing.
http://oi61.tinypic.com/246rkts.jpg
This is a complication of quotes from others, and they are full of excellent points. Two of them also appear in the letter penned by Bob Goodlatte that MAC featured in his video, which is an excellent letter if you haven't read it.
The NRA ILA stated one excellent counter point to this ban:
"By way of background, federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely . . . from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” Because there are handguns capable of firing M855, it “may be used in a handgun.” It does not, however, have a core made of the metals listed in the law; rather, it has a traditional lead core with a steel tip, and therefore should never have been considered “armor piercing.” Nonetheless, BATFE previously declared M855 to be “armor piercing ammunition,” but granted it an exemption as a projectile “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”
Senator Moynihan himself stated a second excellent counter before the senate judiciary subcommittee on criminal law:
"Let me make clear what this bill does not do. Our legislation would not limit the availability of rifle ammunition with armor-piercing capability. We recognize that soft body armor is not designed to stop high powered rifle cartridges. Time and again, congressman Biaggi and I have stressed that only bullets capable of penetrating body armor and designed to be fired from a handgun would be banned; rifle ammunition would not be covered."
Representative Biaggi also stated:
"our legislation does not seek to affect in any way ammunition made originally or primarily for rifle use." He went on to say, "The story is, well, this will affect your ability to hunt; this is an encroachment on your rights as an American citizen. It is without bias, it is a lie, the most damnable lie I have heard during my 16 years in the congress from any representative of any organization."
Nominations for a sticky thread specifically geared towards rational and reasoned comments to submit? I'd like to see a compendium of good counterpoints on how their proposal runs counter to their own definitions, and how it appears unethical in light of the court judgement against the government on M855A1. That would make it easier for all members to submit comments and write to their legislators.
Who the **** does the ATF think they are to determine what "sporting" is and define only single shot handguns as sporting? Ever hear of three gun? Where the **** does the constitution say anything about sporting!? It says to be free you have to be armed. The reason for firearms is to protect freedom. That must be president girly-boys issue; and the atf's. They are a threat to freedom.
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They have been doing it since 1968.
There is a provision in the Gun Control Act called the "sporter clause." It's why some firearms can be imported and many cannot. It allows ATF to apply a "sporting qualification" based upon a list of criteria at their disposal and decide what is going to be legal.
This is hardly anything new, the only thing "new" is when people discover the almost 50 year old law and are made aware that they are subject to it.
It's not that people are discovering something new, it's that the ATF is abusing a made-up power that shouldn't exist. The Constitution doesn't use the words sporting. It says shall not be infringed. The ATF is all hip on definitions, the definition they need to learn is "infringed".
Seems like you're an ATF apologist.
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Doc Safari
02-16-15, 14:41
Explaining the cold hard facts of life is not being an apologist.
Nobody here likes this crap.
It's not shown up on the FR website:
https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-bureau
My email to BATFE:
To Whom It May Concern,
The current proposal to ban M855 ammo by BATFE for civilian sale raises several troubling points. To wit:
First, M855 has been unregulated on the civilian market since its introduction in the late 70’s. There are literally millions and millions of rounds in the hands of the public. Regulating it now is merely creating a black market with artificially inflated prices for the consumer and would do little to reduce its availability to those who would ignore the rules and laws of the United States in pursuit of criminal activities.
Second, it is designed for and intended to be fired in rifle barrels of 20 inches or longer. It is documented to be a poor performer in shorter barrels, such as the 14.5” barrel of the M4 carbine. Firing it in a pistol length barrel is counterintuitive, as there are many rounds exhibiting superior performance in shorter barrels. As such, the intent of this proposed rule is also counter-intuitive and does not accomplish any quantifiable objective.
Third, M855 ammunition does not even meet the definition of “armor piercing” ammunition as defined by BATFE’s own definitions, per 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(17)(b), which read:
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means-
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
This does not describe M855 ammunition, therefore it is excluded from the definition. M855 does not have a steel core, nor is it a steel projectile. It has a steel “tip”, over a base lead core, jacketed in copper. At velocities above 2,450 fps, it exhibits fragmentation, which is the opposite of a round intended for steel or body armor penetration. The round was designed to penetrate light intermediate barriers and still perform, not steel plate or body armor.
Fourth, this ammunition is routinely used for sporting purposes all across the country, from varmint and small game hunting to popular sporting competitions of various types. It is readily obtainable and inexpensive (currently) when compared to other available ammunition in this caliber of comparable performance. Removing it from the market places an unnecessary financial burden on the public for virtually no explainable benefit to public safety.
Fifth, and most disturbing is the appearance of a conflict of interest on the part of the federal government, when viewed in light of the recent court decision against The United States in Liberty Ammunition, Inc., v. United States, which the U.S. Dept. of Justice argued as the defendant. https://ecf.cofc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2011cv0084-112-0
While this court order specifically covers M855A1 ammunition, one cannot help but question the timing and appearance of this Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, to include whether this will financially impact Liberty Ammunition, LLC in any way.
If the BATFE intends to continue pursuing this NPRM in light of all the valid reasons not to, please address each of these concerns in a reply, and in the Federal Register. I appreciate your time and consideration regarding this most important issue.
Regards,
Jerry D. Biggs
Cc: The Hon. Senator James M. Inhofe; The Hon. Senator James Lankford; The Hon. Representative Jim Bridenstine
My emails to my Senators & Representative:
Honorable Senator Inhofe,
I am writing to express my deep concerns regarding a recent NPRM from the BATFE, which seeks to ban M855, 5.56X45mm ammunition for citizen use. Please help us in combating this capricious and overzealous "power of the pen" backdoor gun control scheme. These are my concerns:
First, M855 has been unregulated on the civilian market since its introduction in the late 70’s. There are literally millions and millions of rounds in the hands of the public. Regulating it now is merely creating a black market with artificially inflated prices for the consumer and would do little to reduce its availability to those who would ignore the rules and laws of the United States in pursuit of criminal activities.
Second, it is designed for and intended to be fired in rifle barrels of 20 inches or longer. It is documented to be a poor performer in shorter barrels, such as the 14.5” barrel of the M4 carbine. Firing it in a pistol length barrel is counterintuitive, as there are many rounds exhibiting superior performance in shorter barrels. As such, the intent of this proposed rule is also counter-intuitive and does not accomplish any quantifiable objective.
Third, M855 ammunition does not even meet the definition of “armor piercing” ammunition as defined by BATFE’s own definitions, per 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(17)(b), which read:
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means-
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
This does not describe M855 ammunition, therefore it is excluded from the definition. M855 does not have a steel core, nor is it a steel projectile. It has a steel “tip”, over a base lead core, jacketed in copper. At velocities above 2,450 fps, it exhibits fragmentation, which is the opposite of a round intended for steel or body armor penetration. The round was designed to penetrate light intermediate barriers and still perform, not steel plate or body armor.
Fourth, this ammunition is routinely used for sporting purposes all across the country, from varmint and small game hunting to popular sporting competitions of various types. It is readily obtainable and inexpensive (currently) when compared to other available ammunition in this caliber of comparable performance. Removing it from the market places an unnecessary financial burden on the public for virtually no explainable benefit to public safety.
Fifth, and most disturbing is the appearance of a conflict of interest on the part of the federal government, when viewed in light of the recent court decision against The United States in Liberty Ammunition, Inc., v. United States, which the U.S. Dept. of Justice argued as the defendant. https://ecf.cofc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2011cv0084-112-0
While this court order specifically covers M855A1 ammunition, one cannot help but question the timing and appearance of this Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, to include whether this will financially impact Liberty Ammunition, LLC in any way.
If the BATFE intends to continue pursuing this NPRM in light of all the valid reasons not to, please address these concerns in a reply. I appreciate your time and consideration regarding this most important issue.
Respectfully,
Jerry D. Biggs
BATFE can eat a giant bag of gentleman sausages on this one.
Feel free to reproduce any or all of these. Anything to make it easier for people to join the fray!
Thank you GLocktogo. I used your template. It was articulate and well thought out.
Seems like you're an ATF apologist.
I valued his contributions to this thread and it helped me understand the issue a little better. I am betting he is against this as much as the rest of us are.
Explaining the cold hard facts of life is not being an apologist.
Nobody here likes this crap.
See posts 9, 12, 15, 110-112, and 149. I really don't think blaming gun owners for the ATF circumventing the intent of a law that wasn't Constitutional in the first place is the way to go.
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Thank you GLocktogo. I used your template. It was articulate and well thought out.
I valued his contributions to this thread and it helped me understand the issue a little better. I am betting he is against this as much as the rest of us are.
I sure hope. But blaming people exercising the second amendment rights isn't the way to show it.
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Doc Safari
02-16-15, 15:07
See posts 9, 12, 15, 110-112, and 149. I really don't think blaming gun owners for the ATF circumventing the intent of a law that wasn't Constitutional in the first place is the way to go.
I don't think that was his intent. I think he was trying to show we've been screwed for a very, very long time and to point out that ATF is an agency guilty of serial violations of the Constitution that they always seem to get away with.
Coal Dragger
02-16-15, 15:13
I actually took the time today to send a comment to BATF (not that it will do any good).
I also took the time to actually write emails to both of my Senators, and my Congresswoman expressing my objections to this rule change. Now that I have done that I can come in here and bitch. Until the rest of you also do that, I would suggest taking a break from the forum and getting in touch with your elected officials.
Are you so sure we haven't?
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Coal Dragger
02-16-15, 15:38
No, not for all of you. Human nature being what it is though I'll bet there are plenty who haven't yet.
Sorry if you're butt hurt by my suggestion.
Just being facetious my friend.
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Send a letter to the ATF and I bet you get put on a special list.
We're all on lists, add another page to my NSA/DHS file. I'm sure I get a new page for every case of ammo I ordered online, every class I took, and when I purchase things like body armor.
This is one of those things where having nothing to hide applies. Suck up the new page you get and send the email. All you are stating is you want to be able to affordablely shoot semi accurate ammo out of the most common rifle in use in the United states... For sporting purposes.
I understand you were being sarcastic. But we also know it's probably true.
We're all on lists, add another page to my NSA/DHS file. I'm sure I get a new page for every case of ammo I ordered online, every class I took, and when I purchase things like body armor.
This is one of those things where having nothing to hide applies. Suck up the new page you get and send the email. All you are stating is you want to be able to affordablely shoot semi accurate ammo out of the most common rifle in use in the United states... For sporting purposes.
I understand you were being sarcastic. But we also know it's probably true.
What was it that Mrgunsandgear said? "If you aren't on a list by now you're doing something wrong."
With my training I am sure I'm on a few.
Coal Dragger
02-16-15, 16:03
Meh, they can put me on a list if I'm not already. There are probably so many of us on lists now that doing anything with those lists is a practical impossibility.
Outlander Systems
02-16-15, 16:05
What was it that Mrgunsandgear said? "If you aren't on a list by now you're doing something wrong."
With my training I am sure I'm on a few.
If he said that, he is my new Man-Hero.
I didn't hear about this until this morning. M855 selling for $1 a round on GB? Whoa, sudden riches. Well, I'll never sell mine and those F'ing bastards in the Obongo administration can suck my stinky crusty butt.
I gotta say, this is the worst President ever and I am so sick of him and his stupid ass I can barely keep from losing my lunch when I hear his name.
BTW - Everyone on this site is probably on "some" list.
brickboy240
02-16-15, 16:10
Ummm...it is not as if this is the only thing your AR will eat you know.
If he said that, he is my new Man-Hero.
See it for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrxa1pDdKsc
The problem is that this sets a precedent. Is any rifle ammo that might be used in a pistol now safe from the BS twisting of the law?
The ATF document leaves some avenues open to more bans. Was M193 developed for sporting purposes? What about Mk262? Will they potentially go through a type IIIa vest when fired from a pistol? How about 7.62 NATO? Or 7.62x39?
Averageman
02-16-15, 16:14
Ummm...it is not as if this is the only thing your AR will eat you know.
Oh well, no reason to worry then, I'm sure they have lots of ammo that they approve for us to use.
Worried about a list? Being a member to m4c, completing a 4473, paying for ANYTHING with a CC, having a CCW...list goes on.
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brickboy240
02-16-15, 16:24
For the humor-impared...yeah...the "list" thingy was a joke.
Oh well, no reason to worry then, I'm sure they have lots of ammo that they approve for us to use.
Exactly. Maybe .22, as long as it is no more than 40gr LR. This crap just pisses me off.
For the humor-impared...yeah...the "list" thingy was a joke.
We know...
brickboy240
02-16-15, 16:31
Apparently not...seeing all the "well...you ARE on a list...we are ALL on a list" people.
Tinfoil hats on a little too tight. LOL
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