View Full Version : please help...need advice...
I could really use some advice I am stuck on my decision... I just gave my 3rd Gen glock to my fiancee due to the fact our crime rate has risen in our area.... want to purchase another sidearm..for myself.... the question is which..one.. gen 4 glock.. or hkvp9.... I am at a total stand still... so please help...your advice will greatly be appreciated...
Coal Dragger
03-01-15, 16:49
How deep are you into Glock related support equipment like holsters, magazines etc?
Between the two out of the box the HK VP9 is in my opinion the better pistol, but not to the point I would set aside hundreds of $$$'s worth of ancillary equipment and start all over again.
If you don't have a ton of Glock stuff I'd go for the HK, otherwise smart money is on the Glock.
teutonicpolymer
03-01-15, 17:12
A lot of people are praising the VP9 but I don't think it really is in some other league or anything after having shot it. I would consider how much equipment for the Block you already have, whether you prefer releasing the mag with your trigger finger or American style with your thumb, and how long your thumbs are (I have large thumbs which make it a challenge to not hold the VP9 slide release down).
The VP9 has a higher bore axis but with the ergos I think it shoots about the same as a Block with a lighter recoil spring.
If it were me, this would just get decided by money- if I could find a great deal on a Glock 17/34/21/41/19/30s then I would get that (GSSF coupons can help). If not then I would just get a VP9.
The_Watcher
03-01-15, 17:31
Check out the prices of HK VP9/P30 mags. The pricing is over Double that of a readily available Glock magazine. That alone is enough reason to choose a Glock for me.
Oh and Magpul PMAG GL17
FlyingHunter
03-01-15, 17:44
Glock - get the same model as her, Gen 3 or 4, then you can share magazines, holsters, manual of arms commonality, and train uniformly.
This^^
If you both like the Glock.
Glock - get the same model as her, Gen 3 or 4, then you can share magazines, holsters, manual of arms commonality, and train uniformly.
Good advice
teutonicpolymer
03-01-15, 19:00
My counterpoint to that is how often are you going to share holsters, what is the point in having common mags when each pistol should have an adequate number of mags to go with it so you shouldn't need to borrow, and going from a Glock to a VP9 isn't a huge leap in terms of how they work/how you use each
After shooting a VP9, I will ask you if you want a fullsize gun with compact felt recoil, compact barrel length, compact mag capacity.
It has a good trigger. That's it. It does everything a Glock 19 does in a bigger package.
I was completely underwhelmed. I like the Glock grip angle though.
I finally laid hands on a VP9 yesterday (several actually) while it's nothing like shooting I just didn't find myself awestruck by the egros or trigger. As much as I'm against glock, if I were in your place I'd go Glock. Either that or sell all your stuff and buy a couple of CZ p-07s, Or maybe check out Walthers ppq, to me it feels better than the HK.
Myself I want a P-07, G19, PPQ and VP9... But first I have to get a G40
A lot of people are praising the VP9 but I don't think it really is in some other league or anything after having shot it. I would consider how much equipment for the Block you already have, whether you prefer releasing the mag with your trigger finger or American style with your thumb, and how long your thumbs are (I have large thumbs which make it a challenge to not hold the VP9 slide release down).
The VP9 has a higher bore axis but with the ergos I think it shoots about the same as a Block with a lighter recoil spring.
If it were me, this would just get decided by money- if I could find a great deal on a Glock 17/34/21/41/19/30s then I would get that (GSSF coupons can help). If not then I would just get a VP9.
I own both a VP9, Walther PPQ (M2 5"), Sig SP2022 and an M&P and have shot enough Glocks to know the ins and outs, and the VP9 and Walther PPQ are without a doubt in a class by themselves in the poly group of pistols. Ergonomics, trigger, fit, finish, accuracy etc. Even if you did some trigger work on a Glock, it is still outclassed IMO. I would even put the Sig SP2022 above the Glock but it's DA/SA action puts it in a subcategory.
OP, I would go with the VP9 or Walther PPQ (M2 if you prefer traditional mag release) and be done with it!
Glock - get the same model as her, Gen 3 or 4, then you can share magazines, holsters, manual of arms commonality, and train uniformly.My vote, plus good light and night sights for both.
Just buy a freaking Glock 19 and don't overthink this.
You'll get people trying to steer you towards VP9s, PPQs, CZs, and whatever else we talk about ad nauseum on this forum. Don't get sucked in.
Some people have a lot of nerve recommending better pistols....
I tried the VP9. Wanted to like it so much.
No. If Glock is what you know best, just stick to it. The bullet won't care and the benefits become moot.
You should really try the gun. Not just one range rental but spend some real time with it. It becomes evident quickly how.....standard.. the pistol is. It's well made and on paper is great. But I just kept thinking "should have stuck with Glock". Not because the Glock is 'better' but simply because I was so used to it that it became pointless for me to use anything else for a double stack pistol.
I shoot mostly 1911s because I invested in them before I had children. If I were starting over again and I had a Glock, I would just buy more Glocks. I don't regret what I have now, but for the price point, availability of mags, and support, it would make sense to stick with Glock if I were starting with it.
if you're considering the VP9, also consider a Walther PPQ. I have both. They are very similar, but after several thousand rounds through both, I think I prefer the PPQ trigger by a slim margin.
Either gun is miles ahead of any Glock I've ever owned or shot. Not even in the same ballpark.
Easy. Buy a Glock, 19 preferably.
You're fiancé won't be fumbling around trying to figure out some different gun in an emergency that required her to grab your gun instead of hers.
Both of your mags will be interchangeable (hopefully your gen 3 was a 19), etc etc.
HK or HK or maybe HK or the VP9. Take your pick.
if you're considering the VP9, also consider a Walther PPQ. I have both. They are very similar, but after several thousand rounds through both, I think I prefer the PPQ trigger by a slim margin.
Either gun is miles ahead of any Glock I've ever owned or shot. Not even in the same ballpark.
Your analysis is spot on..........although I do prefer the ergonomics of the VP9 by a slim margin over the PPQ. My PPQ M2 5" with Dawson Precision sights is a tac driver and breaks like glass!
OP:
I'd suggest at least trying a VP9 and decide for yourself.. If as was stated, you're not heavily invested in Glock mags, etc, then by all means give a VP9 a look. HK's are what they are, some of us here appreciate HK's others don't.. Since I own a VP9 I can honestly say this about it
1. The trigger is pretty decent, brand new, they often have a little creep which disappears after putting some rounds through it.
2. Recoil springs are kinda stiff when new, cheap, underpowered ammo can cause failures, I ran a box of Fed 124gr +p's through mine and had no problems with any other ammo after that.
3.Unlike the Glock I had, it will not throw brass in your face.
4. I shoot the VP9 better than the Glock (G19) I had, by a wide margin.
5. Mags are more expensive, reading over at HK pro, a shipment of mags from Germany is due in the middle of this month,(I myself, have plenty) Call HKUSA first, They usually have the best price, never buy anything from HK parts.net that guy is waaaay overpriced on everything.
6. As far as semi auto handguns go, On this site Glocks rule, anything else is pretty much given the stinkeye...:p
7. Holsters, sights, are available...just look around.. I've got Dawson sights on mine..
8. Since you are going to carry/use this pistol,(whatever you decide) Get what YOU want, you're going to be carrying it, not me.
After shooting the HK VP9, I no longer have much use for my Glocks.
I determine what gun I carry by how well I can shoot it.
If you're looking at this as an opportunity to try out a new gun that you've had an eye on, and want others to verify that's okay, then by all means, rock on.
If you want to get the most "practical" gun, that's probably a glock. You can get whatever holster, whatever set of sights, and tons of mags within a week from almost anywhere on the internet. If one is looking for a tool to train with, a glock is probably the most turn key solution.
But that's pretty much what they are, a tool. For some, they're about as fun as other tools to use. If this is part hobby and you just flat out enjoy shooting something besides a glock, there's nothing wrong with that.
I've jumped from gun to gun a lot in the past. Ugh, a lot. I hate to think how much money I've pissed away on that, but water under the bridge and all. I've found for me, that I shoot a lot of drills best with a 9 mm Glock. The grip angle allows me to lock my wrists and arms out so that the gun barely lifts during recoil. I can shoot faster splits on a smaller target with a Glock than anything else. Things get tougher around 25 yards. I can shoot 90+ on a NRA B8 target at that distance, but it's harder than with other guns. Once I get to 25 yards I can see an accuracy difference (in my hands at least), between a Glock and HKs, Sigs, CZs, and 1911s. I think a lot of that is the Glock trigger more than the mechanical accuracy of the guns, it's a tougher trigger to shoot at distance. If I go a few weeks without shooting for groups at 25 yards I see my scores drop.
I think there's a lot of value in having common parts between your own personal gun and the one you just gave to your fiance. But, plenty of people get through the world owning multiple types of firearms. You'll have to decide what's most important to you here, and take the plunge. All of the quality guns out there now have their positive points, and their warts, too.
teutonicpolymer
03-02-15, 21:45
I own both a VP9, Walther PPQ (M2 5"), Sig SP2022 and an M&P and have shot enough Glocks to know the ins and outs, and the VP9 and Walther PPQ are without a doubt in a class by themselves in the poly group of pistols. Ergonomics, trigger, fit, finish, accuracy etc. Even if you did some trigger work on a Glock, it is still outclassed IMO. I would even put the Sig SP2022 above the Glock but it's DA/SA action puts it in a subcategory.
OP, I would go with the VP9 or Walther PPQ (M2 if you prefer traditional mag release) and be done with it!
What you said is fine and good, but have you noticed any quantitative difference between those guns and Glocks like split times or offhand group sizes? For me there would be no accuracy difference because I can do 3" or better offhand groups with Glocks if I really try and I doubt I would see a difference going to a VP9. Splits would probably be better for me on the Block, reloads would be better for me with the Glock. No offense but I think the Euro paddle mag release is unnatural feeling) and the slide release levers are horrifically oversized for my hands so the slide ends up closed rather than locking back unless I go out of my way to move my thumbs far away from the gun which just feels uncomfortable.
So to me, it is not in another league. This is a highly subjective choice. While I agree the trigger is nice, it isn't anything like a nice single action trigger and I didn't feel it helped me over a Glock trigger.
Larry Vickers
03-03-15, 06:29
The VP9 is a classic case of a pistol that rewards good shooters - without exception every single proficient shooter I know who has tried one loves it and has ended up buying one. If your skills are not that great then frankly the VP9 will be a waste and your performance with it or any other polymer framed handgun will not differ much
Sometimes people don't want to hear they don't shoot well and it's easy to be a great shooter behind a keyboard but the proof is in the pudding - I see it all the time in my classes
Terrible Tim
03-03-15, 06:57
Simple solution is to just try a VP9 yourself. Find someone in your area & get out to a range to feed it a box or two. You won't know unless you actually spend some time shooting it. Since you already know what a Glock feels like, try a different platform to see if it's worth all the hype. For me it was.
P.S. Interesting comment by L.V. above. Can't wait to see what the feedback is from this one....
The VP9 is a classic case of a pistol that rewards good shooters - without exception every single proficient shooter I know who has tried one loves it and has ended up buying one. If your skills are not that great then frankly the VP9 will be a waste and your performance with it or any other polymer framed handgun will not differ much
Sometimes people don't want to hear they don't shoot well and it's easy to be a great shooter behind a keyboard but the proof is in the pudding - I see it all the time in my classes
I found this out to be true as well.......more so than any other firearm in recent memory (the Glock has never had the wow factor).
What you said is fine and good, but have you noticed any quantitative difference between those guns and Glocks like split times or offhand group sizes? For me there would be no accuracy difference because I can do 3" or better offhand groups with Glocks if I really try and I doubt I would see a difference going to a VP9. Splits would probably be better for me on the Block, reloads would be better for me with the Glock. No offense but I think the Euro paddle mag release is unnatural feeling) and the slide release levers are horrifically oversized for my hands so the slide ends up closed rather than locking back unless I go out of my way to move my thumbs far away from the gun which just feels uncomfortable.
So to me, it is not in another league. This is a highly subjective choice. While I agree the trigger is nice, it isn't anything like a nice single action trigger and I didn't feel it helped me over a Glock trigger.
The only quantitative or empirical data I have ascertained was through spending several days at the range with a variety of ammunition, and a multitude of distances and shooting positions. All things being equal, and we did a test run with all these pistols in a fixed vice, they would all be exceptional. Be that as it may, that isn't pragmatic or realistic, so it boils down to the operator and how comfortable they are with their pistol.
If you're looking at this as an opportunity to try out a new gun that you've had an eye on, and want others to verify that's okay, then by all means, rock on.
If you want to get the most "practical" gun, that's probably a glock. You can get whatever holster, whatever set of sights, and tons of mags within a week from almost anywhere on the internet. If one is looking for a tool to train with, a glock is probably the most turn key solution.
But that's pretty much what they are, a tool. For some, they're about as fun as other tools to use. If this is part hobby and you just flat out enjoy shooting something besides a glock, there's nothing wrong with that.
I've jumped from gun to gun a lot in the past. Ugh, a lot. I hate to think how much money I've pissed away on that, but water under the bridge and all. I've found for me, that I shoot a lot of drills best with a 9 mm Glock. The grip angle allows me to lock my wrists and arms out so that the gun barely lifts during recoil. I can shoot faster splits on a smaller target with a Glock than anything else. Things get tougher around 25 yards. I can shoot 90+ on a NRA B8 target at that distance, but it's harder than with other guns. Once I get to 25 yards I can see an accuracy difference (in my hands at least), between a Glock and HKs, Sigs, CZs, and 1911s. I think a lot of that is the Glock trigger more than the mechanical accuracy of the guns, it's a tougher trigger to shoot at distance. If I go a few weeks without shooting for groups at 25 yards I see my scores drop.
I think there's a lot of value in having common parts between your own personal gun and the one you just gave to your fiance. But, plenty of people get through the world owning multiple types of firearms. You'll have to decide what's most important to you here, and take the plunge. All of the quality guns out there now have their positive points, and their warts, too.
I respectfully disagree with your analysis. The Glock in my estimation is one of the single worst out of the box pistols on the market. There is a reason the sights, slide stop, mag release and triggers are bordering on intolerable, because Glock knows everyone ends up upgrading these deficiencies. You want a turn key weapon with excellent trigger, sights........VP9 is by far the best option.
The VP9 is a classic case of a pistol that rewards good shooters - without exception every single proficient shooter I know who has tried one loves it and has ended up buying one. If your skills are not that great then frankly the VP9 will be a waste and your performance with it or any other polymer framed handgun will not differ much
Sometimes people don't want to hear they don't shoot well and it's easy to be a great shooter behind a keyboard but the proof is in the pudding - I see it all the time in my classes
Wow! I know several M and GM level that were like "meh"; just another pistol.
People seem to be getting emotional about a pistol.
The VP9 isn't bad. And with perfect practice; you can't go wrong with it.
After years and years of manual of arms for Glock, it simply wasn't right for me. I have piles of Glock magazines, accessories, and am more familiar with it. It simply doesn't make seem efficient for me to learn another pistol.
It is comfortable and quite serviceable but it didn't radically change anything. The trigger is a bit nicer but I'm so used to the Glock trigger it doesnt seem here nor there.
Forgive the analogy but it's like.... it's like this girl you are really attracted to. Everything is there. Everything. Maybe too much of everything. Perhaps an over-idealized uncanny valley. And there's a redundance of high qualification. A singularity of function. And it becomes another investment of time and money.
I guess if I were to country it down, it was just too much gun for me. Part of me wishes I had given it longer but a larger part of me knows I'm going to do what I'm going to do so it may as well be with a Glock. Plus I've just got too many glock holsters.
I suppose I'm institutionalized. But to those that can break the surly bonds of Glock; I understand completely.
Wow! I know several M and GM level that were like "meh"; just another pistol.
Care to elaborate?
teutonicpolymer
03-03-15, 14:32
People seem to be getting emotional about a pistol.
The VP9 isn't bad. And with perfect practice; you can't go wrong with it.
After years and years of manual of arms for Glock, it simply wasn't right for me. I have piles of Glock magazines, accessories, and am more familiar with it. It simply doesn't make seem efficient for me to learn another pistol.
It is comfortable and quite serviceable but it didn't radically change anything. The trigger is a bit nicer but I'm so used to the Glock trigger it doesnt seem here nor there.
Forgive the analogy but it's like.... it's like this girl you are really attracted to. Everything is there. Everything. Maybe too much of everything. Perhaps an over-idealized uncanny valley. And there's a redundance of high qualification. A singularity of function. And it becomes another investment of time and money.
I guess if I were to country it down, it was just too much gun for me. Part of me wishes I had given it longer but a larger part of me knows I'm going to do what I'm going to do so it may as well be with a Glock. Plus I've just got too many glock holsters.
I suppose I'm institutionalized. But to those that can break the surly bonds of Glock; I understand completely.
I am glad someone else is in the same boat as I.
At the end of the day, attempt to try both and if you like one, good. If you like the other, also good.
My wife and I put our Glocks on the back burner and switched to the Walther PPQs. This was before the VP9 came out, but I have no reason to try or switch to the VP9 as the PPQ works for us. We still have our Glocks because we have all the Glock mags and they are still really good weapons, but they are no longer our primary pistols.
If you are getting married, it is a good idea to have the same pistol if it works for both of you. Sometimes a pistol will work well for one person and not another. Good luck.
People seem to be getting emotional about a pistol.
The VP9 isn't bad. And with perfect practice; you can't go wrong with it.
After years and years of manual of arms for Glock, it simply wasn't right for me. I have piles of Glock magazines, accessories, and am more familiar with it. It simply doesn't make seem efficient for me to learn another pistol.
It is comfortable and quite serviceable but it didn't radically change anything. The trigger is a bit nicer but I'm so used to the Glock trigger it doesnt seem here nor there.
Forgive the analogy but it's like.... it's like this girl you are really attracted to. Everything is there. Everything. Maybe too much of everything. Perhaps an over-idealized uncanny valley. And there's a redundance of high qualification. A singularity of function. And it becomes another investment of time and money.
I guess if I were to country it down, it was just too much gun for me. Part of me wishes I had given it longer but a larger part of me knows I'm going to do what I'm going to do so it may as well be with a Glock. Plus I've just got too many glock holsters.
I suppose I'm institutionalized. But to those that can break the surly bonds of Glock; I understand completely.
Breaking the surly bonds of Glock wasn't that difficult for me..My G19 was made at the height of their extractor issues, in my case, 2 ejectors, 4 extractors (including a Apex) 2 mag springs and a spring loaded bearing later, and it still didn't run right, I threw in the towel... I haven't been inclined to give them another chance since.
Breaking the surly bonds of Glock wasn't that difficult for me..My G19 was made at the height of their extractor issues, in my case, 2 ejectors, 4 extractors (including a Apex) 2 mag springs and a spring loaded bearing later, and it still didn't run right, I threw in the towel... I haven't been inclined to give them another chance since.
Yep...again, I'm glad I flicked that booger after three trips to the factory. I almost got suckered in again at the LGS when they had a Gen 3 G20 for $480 (MIL/LEO), but then I read about the Sig P220 10mm hitting the streets and I came back to reality.
I've owned both, sold the VP9 and bought another Glock, all is right again. You've had several replys leaning both ways. The bottom line is you are going to have to decide for yourself, no other way around it. The more you shoot the more you will know what you do and do not like.
Care to elaborate?
Barely. One of them, an incredible shooter and LEO has already provided his "meh" review on M4C in the first long thread. Nice pistol though.
RVTMaverick
03-05-15, 07:40
Some people have a lot of nerve recommending better pistols....
Well, I've just finished reading this whole thread and have to say, Hey "ToeCheese" LOL Gross, Your call Sign alone is funny sh!t and then your reply above had me LOL:D as well... Thanks.
You Sound like a fun guy! :)
OP, My only question is HOW did you come up with a choice between ONLY these 2?
OH Yeah, Awesome to see LV imput here too.... Thanks Larry!
Peace Jeff
Glock 19 for me. I sold my VP9. Loved the ergos and accuracy from the bench but my times in drills were no faster and it didn't carry as well as a 19 iwb. I also could not keep my thumb off the slide stop.
PatrioticDisorder
03-05-15, 09:41
I'm in a similar boat, I own a G19 Gen4 and a VP9, for me the G19 is definitely easier to carry and being Glocks are ubiquitous, accessories, parts and mags are widely available.
That said, the Glock is far from perfection out of the box. Mine spits brass in my face occasionally with erratic/weak ejection so I'm going to order the Apex extractor, trigger is awful compared to a VP9 (night and day difference, Gen3 trigger blows the Gen4 trigger away), VP9 smokes it on Ergos. The controls for the VP9 also work better IMO, of course I'Ll be buying he Vickers control upgrades for the Glock to see how much that improves the controls. Really I see the big advantage of the Glock as having other guns larger and smaller with the same basic manual of arms, ability to share mags & spare parts.
Beat Trash
03-05-15, 10:28
OP, since you are not vested in a platform at this time, you have options. But that doesn't mean you have to change for the sake of change.
I've carried a Glock 19 off duty for the last 15 of the 24 years I've been a LEO. I am issued a M&P9 for work so I have experience with that platform also. I bought a VP9 the first chance I got.
I have large hands, so much so that I found the Gen4 Glock 19's to be the answer to my needs as far as the gun fitting my hands. I also use the large grips or the M&P9 and the VP9.
I have found that the VP9 is an exceptionally accurate pistol. Especially for a gun designed as a carry/duty pistol and not a match or gaming pistol. I've seen M&P's and Glocks that with the addition of an aftermarket barrel and some trigger work, can compete with a stock VP9. So much so that I am tempted to bench my Glock 19's and carry the VP9. I can shoot the Glock 19 well.
But I have a lot of time invested with the Glock 19. With my body style, it's about the largest pistol that I can carry concealed on a consistent basis. So as much as I like some of the aspects of the VP9, my gen4 Glock 19 is still my off-duty carry gun, and will be for the foreseeable future.
IF in your position, I'd take my fiancé and go find a rental range. Rent a VP9 and shoot it against your Glock 19. Then each of you decide what's best for each of you.
I would venture to say that while Glocks are easy to shoot "passably" well for an average shooter (whatever that may be, lets say mass LE quals) they aren't that easy to master for extremely superb shooting. My sense is that both the 320, VP9 and PPQ triggers make it easier to get to a higher level of accuracy with for that average shooter.
Coal Dragger
03-06-15, 12:04
Some guns are easier to shoot well than others. I can accurately shoot a Glock, I've had the chance to shoot more than a few of them. The thing is, I've also had the opportunity to shoot plenty of other pistols that are easier to shoot well and that are more rewarding because of it.
I have the luxury of no longer being required to carry an issued rifle or pistol not of my choosing. I realize many shooters are familiar with Glocks because they are agency issued handguns, that doesn't mean they're the best handguns. More like they were the best combination of low cost, availability, quality, and ease of training for a large diverse agency with many shooters of varying skill level.
Lost River
03-13-15, 22:27
Glock - get the same model as her, Gen 3 or 4, then you can share magazines, holsters, manual of arms commonality, and train uniformly.
This is good advice.
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