Ever have an upper that refuses to shoot anything?

[300Blackout]

I built an upper and went cheap on the barrel. Yes, I suspect that was my downfall.

AR-Stoner barrel that I bought 1.5 years ago for a build of a simple M4 upper. At the time the reviews were quite good.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/834998/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-556x45mm-nato-m4-contour-1-in-9-twist-16-chrome-moly-phosphate

55 gr through 69 grain, it refuses to shoot anything in a group less than 1.5" (the best group I ever got out of it). Usually 2-3" with good optics.

For me, That is just not acceptable. Especially given the number of load combinations I have been through.

Trash the barrel and start over with a Noveske before I waste more time and money on trying to tune this thing in? Or does anyone have advice on what to look for.

It does not have a free float barrel. I am sure that would help, but I have other guns w/o free float that shoot 1.25 down to .5" on every 3 shot group.

For what it is worth, I can shoot good groups out of good guns. I have two Rock River's that make me so proud every time I pull the trigger. A 308 and 223.

[Eurodriver]

1.5" out of that barrel is phenomenal.

[Kain]

Not sure what you are looking for here. It is a cheap barrel and far from match grade. 1.5 inch groups are better than I would expect with the barrel with match grade especially if we are looking at an M4 clone and no free floating. Chrome lined and chrome moly barrels I generally consider to be barrels capable of about 2 inch groups with decent ammo all things being equal. Anything less than that and I feel that I am getting a bonus. I would say be happy and if you want a tact driver than invest money in a rifle/upper that is designed to be a target rifle.

[300Blackout]

If it shot 1.5" I would be happy. One time, out of sooooo many it accidentally shot 1.5".

But good advice.

SO you are not a fan of the chrome lined or chrome molly barrels in general?

[Kain]

If it shot 1.5" I would be happy. One time, out of sooooo many it accidentally shot 1.5".

But good advice.

SO you are not a fan of the chrome lined or chrome molly barrels in general?

Then what is the average group it is producing and with what ammo/optic? Have you had others shoot it to rule out the shooter? (Sorry, but ruling out variables here.)

I have several Chrome lined barrels as well as a chrome moly on an old beater bushy. Nothing wrong with them, but again they are not designed as precision barrels and if that is what you are expecting then you are going to be disappointed. Depending on ammo I would expect some of my chromed lined BCM barrel to group anything from 1.5 inches with match grade and a good optic, to 4 inches with junk bulk. Also, some barrels just don't like some ammo. I have a 20 inch stainless steel RRA barrel that is designed as a "match grade" rifle, and while I can stack some loads at 100 meters, it does not like 75gr Steel match throwing it in about 4 inch groups, while the same loading with a 55gr BTHP will hole around MOA. The point being if you are wanting precision get the right tool for the job, chrome lined or chrome moly barrels simply aren't going to be it.

[Toecheese]

1.5" out of that barrel is phenomenal.

/thread

[Cap'n Crash]

At what distance are you shooting? As Euro said, that's a great group size (assuming 100yds/m), although a larger shot count per group would be a better test.

[300Blackout]

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. I am expecting too much from this gun. I reload, and I reload a lot. Have tried my pet loads in RR 223 and they don't work in this gun ... or maybe they do work as well as I can expect! Have worked up other loads like I do in all my guns. Nothing shoots worth crap. You would think that eventually something would work out.

I am shooting 55 gr Nosler over 23g TAC and that seems to be about as good as it gets. 2-3" which is disappointing, but then again, I guess my expectations are all out of whack.

All my other AR's (223, 7.62x39, 308 Win and 300 Blackout) all shoot well with the proper load. But I am pulling my hair out over this one.

I guess I will use it on the range shooting steel and running drills. Use the Rock River 223 for the coyotes and longer range steel shooting and such.

The Rock River 308 shoots like a dream. It does not have a free float barrel. It is a mid length a4 and shoots down to 1/2" usually its around an inch. I put the Magpul MOE front end on it though. Fantastic gun. I can only imagine the accuracy I could get if I put a free float tube on it.

https://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/pu308m.gif

[300Blackout]

Kain,

No offense. I see some pretty bad shooting from some people and offer to shoot the gun for them to see if it is the gun or them.

I can take my RR 223 and make some beautiful ragged holes. Damn I love that rifle. My RR 308 is accurate as I could wish for, given the configuration. My 375 H&H is one of the most accurate guns I own second to the 223! That thing impresses me every time I shoot it (which ain't all that often). Only to test a load or kill an animal. 9/16" -7/8" is very normal for that rifle. Love that gun.

Yes, I am shooting 100 yards with 3x-9x scope with this M4.

I guess I am spoiled. All my AR's (except maybe the 7.62x39) are great shooters. I just expected more from this barrel. I will wear it out and replace it with a Daniel Defense or Noveske or similar quality. Or, I will just get tired of it and replace it.

Thanks for the insight guys. I guess 2-3" is standard to expect with this kind of barrel?

BTW, I loaded some sinterfire 45 gr frangible and got a 4" group at 100' (33 yards!) Of course those rounds are for steel at close range but damn! I was surprised how bad they shot! But then again, little need in shooting them much farther than 20 yards away.

Thanks again for the help.

[Iraqgunz]

All things considered that's not bad, but I think you already know the answer to your dilemma. Nothing I have seen from AR Stoner is worth buying. Considering the barrel is the most important part of the weapon, I am astounded that people continue to seek everything on the cheap.


I built an upper and went cheap on the barrel. Yes, I suspect that was my downfall.

AR-Stoner barrel that I bought 1.5 years ago for a build of a simple M4 upper. At the time the reviews were quite good.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/834998/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-556x45mm-nato-m4-contour-1-in-9-twist-16-chrome-moly-phosphate

55 gr through 69 grain, it refuses to shoot anything in a group less than 1.5" (the best group I ever got out of it). Usually 2-3" with good optics.

For me, That is just not acceptable. Especially given the number of load combinations I have been through.

Trash the barrel and start over with a Noveske before I waste more time and money on trying to tune this thing in? Or does anyone have advice on what to look for.

It does not have a free float barrel. I am sure that would help, but I have other guns w/o free float that shoot 1.25 down to .5" on every 3 shot group.

For what it is worth, I can shoot good groups out of good guns. I have two Rock River's that make me so proud every time I pull the trigger. A 308 and 223.

[300Blackout]

Considering the barrel is the most important part of the weapon, I am astounded that people continue to seek everything on the cheap.
Gotta agree with you, especially now.

I went with Daniel Defense for my 300 build, and will buy that level or higher on all future builds.

I have no use for an inaccurate weapon, AR or bolt gun. If I do my job, I fully expect the weapon to do it's job. I am the biggest cause of misses. I don't need any help in missing from my weapon.

[DutchV]

For $250 you could get a barrel from Black Hole Weaponry, Seekins or Rainier (just a few I found with a quick scan of vendors I like). Any of those would likely be tons better. Let your current barrel go to someone with lower expectations.

[Nengland]

Just buy a Sionics barrel and be done with it.

[Iraqgunz]

Solid barrel, medium contour and midlength gas. http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=66


Gotta agree with you, especially now.

I went with Daniel Defense for my 300 build, and will buy that level or higher on all future builds.

I have no use for an inaccurate weapon, AR or bolt gun. If I do my job, I fully expect the weapon to do it's job. I am the biggest cause of misses. I don't need any help in missing from my weapon.

[djegators]

Solid barrel, medium contour and midlength gas. http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=66

Got that barrel on a build, good shooter, I recommend as well.

[NWcityguy2]

The difference between a 1/2 moa barrel and a 2-3 moa barrel is meaningless if you are shooting cheap ammo or you aren't shooting from a supported position. Besides, that barrel was never meant to be on a bench gun anyway. If I had bought that barrel and got that level of accuracy from it, I'd be happy and use it for short range shooting until it wore out.

But if you're not happy, replace it.

[300Blackout]

The difference between a 1/2 moa barrel and a 2-3 moa barrel is meaningless if you are shooting cheap ammo or you aren't shooting from a supported position. Besides, that barrel was never meant to be on a bench gun anyway. If I had bought that barrel and got that level of accuracy from it, I'd be happy and use it for short range shooting until it wore out.

But if you're not happy, replace it.

In some circumstances, I agree completely with you. But I have to take into account the purpose of the gun. I made a mistake by going cheap on the barrel. I wanted more than this gun could give. Ok, my bad. I had higher expectations, and I was let down. This barrel has a use, but not in my normal shooting. I think some guys here have made solid recommendations for a replacement barrel.

When the difference is a hit or a miss by the margin of error of the gun, then I gather bad data (hit steel or miss steel, A zone or C/B zone by an inch). I am gauging my shooting ability, trying to get better, if the results I see are inaccurate because of sub-par equipment, then I get poor feedback and loose confidence in either my ability, technique, or equipment.

To me, this is important. It's why I reload all my ammo, it's why I test all loads in each gun, I want predictable accuracy so when I miss I know it was me and I don't have to wonder if it was the gun.

Plus, maybe a friend wins in a friendly V-Tac 9 hole drill because my gun missed by an inch and I had to re-shoot the steel, and I will not be beaten on my own range! :)

Thanks for the comments.

[300Blackout]

Solid barrel, medium contour and midlength gas. http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=66

Hmm, looks interesting. Don't take this the wrong way, but that isn't very expensive. $70 more than what I paid for my barrel! (That's good of course). But here we are talking about going cheap on the most important part of the gun, and here is a barrel for $190. I love the idea of spending less, but now I am gun shy (yes, pun intended).

Ok, given the fact that the Stoner barrel I have is expected to be a 2-3 MOA gun, tell me, what is a realistic expectation from a barrel like this with a free float handguard? Given some testing of different loads, different bullets of course. I know not all guns shoot exactly the same. I work up loads for everything. I also know there are a hundred different variables etc. But, given good technique, proper load etc, can you really expect MOA or possibly better with this barrel?

I don't want to make another mistake and buy a sub-par barrel and then go spend $400 on one that meets my expectations.

Thanks for your help.

[NWcityguy2]

In some circumstances, I agree completely with you. But I have to take into account the purpose of the gun. I made a mistake by going cheap on the barrel. I wanted more than this gun could give. Ok, my bad. I had higher expectations, and I was let down. This barrel has a use, but not in my normal shooting. I think some guys here have made solid recommendations for a replacement barrel.

When the difference is a hit or a miss by the margin of error of the gun, then I gather bad data (hit steel or miss steel, A zone or C/B zone by an inch). I am gauging my shooting ability, trying to get better, if the results I see are inaccurate because of sub-par equipment, then I get poor feedback and loose confidence in either my ability, technique, or equipment.

To me, this is important. It's why I reload all my ammo, it's why I test all loads in each gun, I want predictable accuracy so when I miss I know it was me and I don't have to wonder if it was the gun.

Plus, maybe a friend wins in a friendly V-Tac 9 hole drill because my gun missed by an inch and I had to re-shoot the steel, and I will not be beaten on my own range! :)

Thanks for the comments.

I shoot 3-gun and host matches as an IDPA SO. A 2-3 moa rifles is fine for local 3-gun. Targets smaller than 4 moa are rare because the time it takes to hit them is longer than the penalty for missing them after taking a single shot. If you can't hit the A zone on a target, or a steel, it's you not the gun. Scored targets are rare past 100 yards anyway because of the reset time between shooters.

Lots of people shoot entry level guns with barrels similar to yours and do very well at 3-gun.

It sounds like you want a barrel with better measurables, which is cool and I'm not trying to argue because it's your money, but from everything you've written it doesn't seem like your barrel is actually hindering your shooting.

[300Blackout]

True, the barrel doesn't hider my shooting and I actually seem to do fine with it on my own range. I guess when I set it on a bench is when it disappoints me. It's when I try to develop a load that can average 1.5" that it disappoints me.

Solution: Don't shoot it off a bench. :)

[NWcityguy2]

What optic are you using?

[300Blackout]

Luepold 3x-9x-40mm. I can't remember the model VXII or whatever. It's duracoated, Can't see the mod #. It's good glass, not crappy, not a Nightforce either. But good enough.

It's not the optics, I can get good groups with a 9x Leupold.

[NWcityguy2]

3x is pretty tight on the low end for 3-gun. The reason I ask is because it makes a moot point to be chasing sub-moa accuracy if you are running a 1-4 or 1.5-6 optic.

[300Blackout]

3x is pretty tight on the low end for 3-gun. The reason I ask is because it makes a moot point to be chasing sub-moa accuracy if you are running a 1-4 or 1.5-6 optic.

I can see your point clearly. Maybe I need to take up 3 gun and just stop worrying about this barrel. :)

Ok, seriously. I live in Frisco TX, (North of Dallas) I have a genuine interest in 3 gun. Where do I start? Where can I go see one (other than youtube) and participate in one. I sm dure they have beginner or novice groups.

[300Blackout]

BTW, I usually run a 1-4x Leupold on this gun. I like that scope, for my use it is very versatile. I have used the same model on my 375 H&H for 21 years and it has served me well. I too find 4x a bit high when I do a drill like the 9-hole @ 100 yards. When I get on the bottom 3 holes, I sometimes struggle for a second to locate the plate if there are no other targets on either side to reference where I am aiming. Dialed down to 2x or 3x makes it easier.

I have used the Eotech but when you have a gun that you use for hunting and longer range shooting the Eotech lacks the precision that I need for a multi purpose rifle, which is why I like MOA guns. I like them to be capable of hunting if need be.

Thanks again for the info.

[NWcityguy2]

Ok, seriously. I live in Frisco TX, (North of Dallas) I have a genuine interest in 3 gun. Where do I start? Where can I go see one (other than youtube) and participate in one. I sm dure they have beginner or novice groups.

So check this webpage out. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21681 I don't live in the Dallas area so I couldn't say how local these are, but it's a place to start.

3-gun is a blast and IMHO the best test of shooting fundamentals, because so many different skills will be tested in a short period of time. Don't worry about becoming a master shooter before going to your first event, beginners are always welcome at competitions. Just remember gun safety and to always have a good time.

Here are a couple videos from competitions we have held recently. Generally on youtube people watch all the Regional/National events, but local competitions are a bit less scary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1oiZFiQhRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lknSn4ppn1k&feature=youtu.be

[300Blackout]

Thanks. I bought my Dillon 550b from Brian. Reminds me ... I need to buy more Dillon stuff as I just got a XD40 Tactical that SHOOTS! I Like my 1911, but that XD gun is growing on me.

I used to water ski competitively, I was not very good, but they always let me try! I am sure it's the same with most competitions. Newcomers are usually welcomed quite warmly.

Thanks. I'll watch the videos too.

[Iraqgunz]

All I can say is I suggest you do some more research into the AR.


Hmm, looks interesting. Don't take this the wrong way, but that isn't very expensive. $70 more than what I paid for my barrel! (That's good of course). But here we are talking about going cheap on the most important part of the gun, and here is a barrel for $190. I love the idea of spending less, but now I am gun shy (yes, pun intended).

Ok, given the fact that the Stoner barrel I have is expected to be a 2-3 MOA gun, tell me, what is a realistic expectation from a barrel like this with a free float handguard? Given some testing of different loads, different bullets of course. I know not all guns shoot exactly the same. I work up loads for everything. I also know there are a hundred different variables etc. But, given good technique, proper load etc, can you really expect MOA or possibly better with this barrel?

I don't want to make another mistake and buy a sub-par barrel and then go spend $400 on one that meets my expectations.

Thanks for your help.

[NWcityguy2]

No comment on the question about what accuracy to expect out of the Sionics barrel that people were talking about? The OP was asking if he could expect MOA or better from it.

[300Blackout]

All I can say is I suggest you do some more research into the AR.
Well, it's tough to gauge sarcasm or humor on a thread. So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I don't quite understand that statement.

[300Blackout]

You say Stoners are 2-3 MOA barrels. Ok, I asked if your barrel is capable of MOA under the right circumstances. Maybe you misunderstood my post and took offense at the wording. It happens. Sorry if it came out wrong. I certainly had no intention of insulting your product. I was interested in that barrel. For reasons of my own, I do not like mine and want to replace it.

[NWcityguy2]

If you're dead set on replacing that barrel, look at Green Mountain. My 20", 1:8 twist A2 barrel is chrome lined and shoots MOA. My friend's 20" 1:12 twist A1 barrel also shoots MOA. I've never tried their stainless barrels, but if their chrome lined ones are an overall example of the brand, I'd have high hopes. For less than most comparable products, I've not seen another chrome lined barrel perform significantly better.

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/ar-15-m16-m4-rifle-barrels/

[RWH24]

Armalite used to print on their entry working type AR's estimated accuracy to be 2.0-3.0 moa. They don't list it anymore.

[Heavy Metal]

Perfectly acceptable field-grade accuracy.

[Iraqgunz]

I must have misread the question or passed it over. Here's what I will tell you about the barrels.

First thing is that I would never in my lifetime guarantee a barrel to shoot MOA, sub-MOA or anything else. Simply because the moment you do, you are setting yourself up. We have had barrels sent back to us by people who insisted that they won't group. We then took them and assembled them into an upper (properly) and were able to shoot groups that were more than respectable. You can look on M4C for some of the results from Trident86 and others. In addition we have various test targets and stuff on the Facebook page.

The other thing I will say is that people are too wrapped around the accuracy axle. If someone is demanding MOA accuracy, then I also have to demand that they also (a.) know how to shoot, (b.) use quality ammo that is match grade, (c.) assemble their weapon properly, (d.) and have an optic that will enable them to do so.

My gage for a barrel is quite simple. Can I hit what I am aiming at, and is it doing what I need it to do? If I can hit a steel plate at 600 yards then I am more than happy with the barrels performance. I am not a Delta Force Space Shuttle Ninja sniper rescuing hostages from Mars. I am also not a police officer on SWAT. I also don't shoot competition. But, if my rifle will perform at the distance I need it to, then I am happy.

I am more interested in having a weapon that will shoot the ammo I feed it and that it doesn't malfunction. If it does that, then I am happy.


You say Stoners are 2-3 MOA barrels. Ok, I asked if your barrel is capable of MOA under the right circumstances. Maybe you misunderstood my post and took offense at the wording. It happens. Sorry if it came out wrong. I certainly had no intention of insulting your product. I was interested in that barrel. For reasons of my own, I do not like mine and want to replace it.

[300Blackout]

Thanks.

[300Blackout]

I must have misread the question or passed it over. Here's what I will tell you about the barrels.

First thing is that I would never in my lifetime guarantee a barrel to shoot MOA, sub-MOA or anything else. Simply because the moment you do, you are setting yourself up. We have had barrels sent back to us by people who insisted that they won't group. We then took them and assembled them into an upper (properly) and were able to shoot groups that were more than respectable. You can look on M4C for some of the results from Trident86 and others. In addition we have various test targets and stuff on the Facebook page.

The other thing I will say is that people are too wrapped around the accuracy axle. If someone is demanding MOA accuracy, then I also have to demand that they also (a.) know how to shoot, (b.) use quality ammo that is match grade, (c.) assemble their weapon properly, (d.) and have an optic that will enable them to do so.

My gage for a barrel is quite simple. Can I hit what I am aiming at, and is it doing what I need it to do? If I can hit a steel plate at 600 yards then I am more than happy with the barrels performance. I am not a Delta Force Space Shuttle Ninja sniper rescuing hostages from Mars. I am also not a police officer on SWAT. I also don't shoot competition. But, if my rifle will perform at the distance I need it to, then I am happy.

I am more interested in having a weapon that will shoot the ammo I feed it and that it doesn't malfunction. If it does that, then I am happy.

I demand accuracy from my gun. You don't. Ok, cool. Maybe we do different things with our guns. I am clearly wrapped around the accuracy axle and I am comfortable there. It makes me happy. Its my woobie, so to speak.

Now, re read my post, I Didn't ask for a guarantee. I Wanted an idea of a reasonable expectation under the right circumstances. (You can re-read my post). That is far from asking for a guarantee.

I bet Scionics barrels are pretty good barrels. I was looking at them on your recommendation. Price was good and had some internet references to back it up. I do not know what capacity you represent them, but they just lost one customer. Thanks for making the list shorter for me.

Good day sir.

[RIDE]

I demand accuracy from my gun. You don't. Ok, cool. Maybe we do different things with our guns. I am clearly wrapped around the accuracy axle and I am comfortable there. It makes me happy. Its my woobie, so to speak.

Now, re read my post, I Didn't ask for a guarantee. I Wanted an idea of a reasonable expectation under the right circumstances. (You can re-read my post). That is far from asking for a guarantee.

I bet Scionics barrels are pretty good barrels. I was looking at them on your recommendation. Price was good and had some internet references to back it up. I do not know what capacity you represent them, but they just lost one customer. Thanks for making the list shorter for me.

Good day sir.

I have zero affiliation with Sionics, but if I did, I'd be thrilled to see you go.

[Iraqgunz]

I apologize that you misunderstood what I was saying. If I told you that it will shoot 2 MOA would that make you happy? If I told you it will beat the MILSPEC requirements for a service carbine or rifle would that be better?

The point I was making, which seems to be lost is that it may or may not shoot 1 MOA. We cannot control all the variables. I also explained what we typically see from the barrels.

You'll also notice I never said I didn't demand accuracy, but rather that the demand needs to be reasonable and relative.


I demand accuracy from my gun. You don't. Ok, cool. Maybe we do different things with our guns. I am clearly wrapped around the accuracy axle and I am comfortable there. It makes me happy. Its my woobie, so to speak.

Now, re read my post, I Didn't ask for a guarantee. I Wanted an idea of a reasonable expectation under the right circumstances. (You can re-read my post). That is far from asking for a guarantee.

I bet Scionics barrels are pretty good barrels. I was looking at them on your recommendation. Price was good and had some internet references to back it up. I do not know what capacity you represent them, but they just lost one customer. Thanks for making the list shorter for me.

Good day sir.

[300Blackout]

I apologize that you misunderstood what I was saying.

Cool. Apology accepted. Tone is impossible to convey in late night postings (I think mine was about 2:30 am, right after yours) so no hard feelings.

So, care to expand on your answer, because I'm still in the market.

[Iraqgunz]

Not sure what else I can expand on or offer you at this point.


Cool. Apology accepted. Tone is impossible to convey in late night postings (I think mine was about 2:30 am, right after yours) so no hard feelings.

So, care to expand on your answer, because I'm still in the market.

[300Blackout]

Yeah, I guess I wasn't mistaken.

Your response was condescending and patronizing. A simple question was met with obfuscation and disinterest.

I am sorry I wasted your time.

[Iraqgunz]

I really don't understand your issue. I simply told you that I don't know what else you want to hear. I have explained this about as well as i can.


Yeah, I guess I wasn't mistaken.

Your response was condescending and patronizing. A simple question was met with obfuscation and disinterest.

I am sorry I wasted your time.

[RIDE]

Yeah, I guess I wasn't mistaken.

Your response was condescending and patronizing. A simple question was met with obfuscation and disinterest.

I am sorry I wasted your time.

This is not a joke, nor is it meant to belittle you, but you should seriously seek some counseling.

[zandander]

After all the reading I did on my barrel swap the two I was considering was a sionics lw profile or the bcm elw. My plans for my rifle isn't necessarily precision, but more like minute of man. My next build I plan on using a sionics barrel based on all the positive reviews.
And I would listen to what ever insight iraqgunz gives because he's been doing this for a pretty good while. Not saying that his word or anyone else's is the law, but he's been around the bend a few times.

[300Blackout]

After all the reading I did on my barrel swap the two I was considering was a sionics lw profile or the bcm elw. My plans for my rifle isn't necessarily precision, but more like minute of man. My next build I plan on using a sionics barrel based on all the positive reviews.
And I would listen to what ever insight iraqgunz gives because he's been doing this for a pretty good while. Not saying that his word or anyone else's is the law, but he's been around the bend a few times.

Thanks, first, let's not blow this out of proportion. I asked a serious question after he suggested I buy his barrel. His answer was nothing short of rude. "All I can say is I suggest you do some more research into the AR."

If that ain't rude, I don't know what is. Especially from someone representing a company or product.

I gave him a couple opportunities to redeem himself and say, "Sorry, what I meant to say was ..." He blew them all.

Ok, thanks, I'll pass on your barrel then.

I get the feeling he thought that I really don't need an MOA gun. Well, that is inconsequential when this is what I am searching for. That is what I want and I am willing to pay for it.

Oh well. I think there was some communication breakdown or possibly he just thinks I'm an uneducated armchair wannabe shooter idiot for wanting an accurate gun. Who knows.

For what it is worth, I respect his opinion on the AR, and will listen to what he has to say in the future.

I am sure he knows his stuff. There is valuable advice rattling around in that head of his.
I am certain he knows more than me on AR's (or I wouldn't be here asking questions).
I am certain I could learn something from him about AR's.
I am sure his barrel is better than a Stoner, because, well, the data is out there.
I am also certain that I will not do business with someone who treats me that way. I don't need to to be spoken down to like a child.

If this requires professional counseling, well then so be it.

There are no hard feelings, no need for anyone to get their panties in a wad. I'm happy with the information I got. I have learned quite a bit on this thread about barrels. That was the point. You guys have been very helpful. Thank you.

[Captiva]

You are way to sensitive, and I would not recommend getting into a urination contest with a moderator particularly a dual degree industry professional. Don't come here for validation as there is a very, very large online community where you can do that all day and night. You got an answer from folks that know their Shiite. Close thread off with a thank you. You were close, but you kept going.

Have a nice life in Texas.

[SeriousStudent]

OP:

You got this part correct: "Tone is impossible to convey in late night postings."

I really think you are finding disagreement where there isn't any. I also think you are misreading IG's tone. I would strongly encourage you to NOT make public remarks like "Your response was condescending and patronizing" to a moderator or Industry Professional on this board. There are discussions that are better suited to PM's. This is now one of those discussions.

If you want to continue this with IG, do it via PM's. But the public part is finito.