View Full Version : Bolt gunner looking to get into ARs: Suggestions?
Little Yosh
03-04-15, 12:48
Howdy! I am a long time bolt-gunner looking to get into ARs to do some precision work (tactical matches) and have something other than my handguns & shotty for self-defense and the zombie apocalypse. Although I've shot a few over the years and know the basics, I am not versed enough with the platform to make any educated decisions on buying anything AR. Having said that, I do know who Larue, Noveske, Rainier, BCM, DD, LMT and the others are.
I live in a state that passed legislation due to Newtown, Connecticut. Before it went into affect, I purchased 2 forged Mega lowers. They've been gathering dust since 2013 and I am ready to get them going... As mentioned, the main purpose of the rifle would be for tactical competitions. 600yds would be about the max distance I would shoot in the comps, but I have access to longer ranges and love to stretch the limits of anything I shoot. (I use my .223 bolt-gun out to 900yds using 77gr) Having said that I don't want a bench-gun, per say, and would like to be able to run-and-gun in the filthiest of environments and maybe consider 3-gun matches.
I am pretty sure I am going to have the uppers built for me, but need to decide on a few things:
16"-18" barrel?
1:7 or 1:8 twist? (I will shoot 55gr crap when plinking, but will mainly shoot 69-77gr)
SS for the best accuracy?
Will any comp do? I won't suppress, but would love to keep the recoil down for follow up shots. Was thinking about the BCM Battle Comp?
Mid-length or rifle-length?
Geissele? I know... Dumb question, but don't know if there's another trigger I should look into.
BCGs?
Rails? Guessing this is just preference.
What else do I need to consider?
I know better to ask which is best; Noveske, LMT, BCM, etc. But, I will ask: Do any of them provide better long-range or precision options? Maybe I am overthinking this. Maybe it's as simple as buying a BCM SPR upper or Rainier Ultramatch? So, if you have the time, I'd like to hear from y'all.
Thanks,
Little Yosh
Buy a BCM upper and complete bolt and sleep at night. If you have time to wait Palmetto PREMIUM assemblies and parts are great and are top quality. Stay simple ,buy quality. The problem with ARs is no one owns just one.
I second the above...Get a BCM complete upper (id get a 1/7 twist, but that's just me) and be happy that you did. There is definitely no reason to buy anything other than a bcm bcg. Muzzle device depends on your application, but know there will be a trade off when it comes to flash/blast v. muzzle stability. Also, bcm doesn't make the battlecomp. Bcm's comp is called the gunfighter comp. In my experience, the bcm comp is less blasty and produces slightly less flash than most of the comps out there. However, although its definitely an improvement over the A2, its not going to keep the muzzle completely flat like a dedicated brake (and that's the common tradeoff I mentioned). Again, muzzle device depends on your application. Regarding barrel length, you're not really going to see any kind of measurable improvement in accuracy when going from 16-18 inches (all things being equal, of course). The main reason why I would think about increasing barrel length would be if I was looking for lethality at distance (length = velocity. velocity = lethality, generally speaking). There isn't much you cant do with a nice 16" barrel. If you go 16", definitely go with a mid length gas system. Basically, we're circling back to the initial point...just get a complete 16" midlength bcm upper and be done. Regarding rails...if you want a quad rail, id go with either a centurion C4 or DD lite III; my personal preference would be the DD lite III. bcm will be offering the dd lite III as an option on their uppers fairly soon. If you want to go keymod, bcm pretty much has the keymod rail market locked up.
NWcityguy2
03-04-15, 22:59
JP Enterprises over any of the brands you just mentioned. Rifle length gas, adjustable gas block, low mass BCG, excellent FF tube, effective comp, all out of the box. They shoot fast and are very accurate. If you've got money to spend, JP is the way to go. They have a huge following among competitive shooters for a reason.
Another vote for JP. Doesn't seem like your building on a strict budget just to build. Definitely would go 18" barrel (Rainier Ultra match) I didn't see you mention optics unless your shooting irons out to 600 yards.
I would go with a nice 1-6 illuminated
Howdy! I am a long time bolt-gunner looking to get into ARs to do some precision work (tactical matches) and have something other than my handguns & shotty for self-defense and the zombie apocalypse. Although I've shot a few over the years and know the basics, I am not versed enough with the platform to make any educated decisions on buying anything AR. Having said that, I do know who Larue, Noveske, Rainier, BCM, DD, LMT and the others are.
I live in a state that passed legislation due to Newtown, Connecticut. Before it went into affect, I purchased 2 forged Mega lowers. They've been gathering dust since 2013 and I am ready to get them going... As mentioned, the main purpose of the rifle would be for tactical competitions. 600yds would be about the max distance I would shoot in the comps, but I have access to longer ranges and love to stretch the limits of anything I shoot. (I use my .223 bolt-gun out to 900yds using 77gr) Having said that I don't want a bench-gun, per say, and would like to be able to run-and-gun in the filthiest of environments and maybe consider 3-gun matches.
I am pretty sure I am going to have the uppers built for me, but need to decide on a few things:
16"-18" barrel?
1:7 or 1:8 twist? (I will shoot 55gr crap when plinking, but will mainly shoot 69-77gr)
SS for the best accuracy?
Will any comp do? I won't suppress, but would love to keep the recoil down for follow up shots. Was thinking about the BCM Battle Comp?
Mid-length or rifle-length?
Geissele? I know... Dumb question, but don't know if there's another trigger I should look into.
BCGs?
Rails? Guessing this is just preference.
What else do I need to consider?
I know better to ask which is best; Noveske, LMT, BCM, etc. But, I will ask: Do any of them provide better long-range or precision options? Maybe I am overthinking this. Maybe it's as simple as buying a BCM SPR upper or Rainier Ultramatch? So, if you have the time, I'd like to hear from y'all.
Thanks,
Little Yosh
What kind of accuracy do you expect out of this do everything rifle?
Little Yosh
03-05-15, 07:46
Many thanks! I had briefly looked at BCMs website and saw some cool stuff, but I couldn't discern if the "accuracy" was there. I also saw a few things made by JP but didn'I know if that was overkill. Considering precision, quality and reliability, are they equal? Or are they apples and oranges?
I shoot sub-MOA with my bolt-guns... Is that asking too much? Not sure I am asking for a rifle thay can do it all, but would like to accomplish as much as I can with one. If you increase one attribute, does it necessarily mean you have to decrease another? I know there are tradeoffs, but how extreme does that have to be? A great barrel would increase accuracy potential, yes? If so, cant I slap one on a Walmart Special and call it a day? Maybe. But, then I lose quality and reliability. Can you stick a crappy barrel on a JP and have it shoot lights-out. No.
In the end, I just want a robust platform that I can squeeze as much accuracy out of it as I can.
NWcityguy2
03-05-15, 08:58
JP Enterprises > BCM for everything you want to do. People recommending BCM for everything around here, regardless of the intended use, is becoming a bad joke. The accuracy of the JP-15 is well documented, http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/32303/jp-enterprises-jp-15/ Plus it will come competition ready, while the BCM will not.
sevenhelmet
03-05-15, 09:37
Howdy! I am a long time bolt-gunner looking to get into ARs to do some precision work (tactical matches) and have something other than my handguns & shotty for self-defense and the zombie apocalypse. Although I've shot a few over the years and know the basics, I am not versed enough with the platform to make any educated decisions on buying anything AR. Having said that, I do know who Larue, Noveske, Rainier, BCM, DD, LMT and the others are.
I live in a state that passed legislation due to Newtown, Connecticut. Before it went into affect, I purchased 2 forged Mega lowers. They've been gathering dust since 2013 and I am ready to get them going... As mentioned, the main purpose of the rifle would be for tactical competitions. 600yds would be about the max distance I would shoot in the comps, but I have access to longer ranges and love to stretch the limits of anything I shoot. (I use my .223 bolt-gun out to 900yds using 77gr) Having said that I don't want a bench-gun, per say, and would like to be able to run-and-gun in the filthiest of environments and maybe consider 3-gun matches.
I am pretty sure I am going to have the uppers built for me, but need to decide on a few things:
-16"-18" barrel?
My Chrono testing shows about a 100-150 fps difference between a 16" and 18" barrel with an equivalent load, so you'll have to decide how much that matters to you. I find the 18" is just slightly slower for dynamic/multi-target drills, although some of that is what optics/accessories are mounted on the gun. 16" is a great length for "run and gun" unless you want to go the SBR route, but it sounds like you want more long-range accuracy.
-1:7 or 1:8 twist? (I will shoot 55gr crap when plinking, but will mainly shoot 69-77gr)
I recommend a 1:7. 1:8 may not stabilize longer rounds such as 77gr SMK (some reportedly don't.) I have also run 55gr budget ammo through my 1:7 barrels with no issues. Normally I shoot 62gr and up though.
-SS for the best accuracy?
I will defer to others here; I have no experience with SS barrels. Chrome-lining is said to reduce accuracy slightly. Nitriding is also an option on some barrels though, and is supposed to last longer than SS if that is a concern of yours.
-Will any comp do? I won't suppress, but would love to keep the recoil down for follow up shots. Was thinking about the BCM Battle Comp?
That is a nice comp! Their gunfighter comp is also very good.
-Mid-length or rifle-length?
I recommend mid-length on a 16", and rifle length on an 18", depending on which barrel you get.
-Geissele? I know... Dumb question, but don't know if there's another trigger I should look into.
Again, no personal experience, but LOTS of anecdotal evidence that they are fantastic triggers (and they make other excellent rails too; more on that in a moment.)
-BCGs?
I'd get one that's a good match for your barrel. If you are REALLY concerned about accuracy, you can get a match-grade barrel with a BCG cut to match it. However, the BCG doesn't even have to be the same brand as your barrel to work (mine aren't.)
-Rails? Guessing this is just preference.
Preference? Sort of. I recommend a 13" rail on a 16" barrel, or a 15" rail on a 18" barrel. Quad-rails are usually heavy and tear into your hands, so a keymod or similar would take care of weight and ergonomics together. I wish I'd gone with a Geissele rail on my first build- got one on my second, and I love that thing.
-What else do I need to consider?
Maybe I missed it further down in the thread, but what distances are you shooting? FWIW, I built my first AR as a sort of "all around" gun, and my second as a longer-range SPR-ish setup. Which of those better suits your desired use? That will drive a lot of the discussion above to a logical conclusion. Others have weighed in on the "this vs. that brand" discussion, so I will rest here.
Eurodriver
03-05-15, 09:44
JP Enterprises > BCM for everything you want to do. People recommending BCM for everything around here, regardless of the intended use, is becoming a bad joke.
Because M4C was not built around competition shooters and 3 gunners.
NWcityguy2
03-05-15, 12:18
There isn't a line drawn in the sand, where if you are on one side or the other, you are a competitive or tactical shooter. If this forum isn't built upon giving advice from personal experience and knowledge then it is just people repeating what they read on the internet and the same as almost all the others.
sevenhelmet
03-05-15, 12:39
NWcityguy2, I definitely agree with your point on personal experience, and I think presenting alternative brands with their pros and cons is important. However, the shooters I know tend more toward either tactical or competition shooting styles. You may not think there is a line in the sand, but a lot of (all?) the shooters I know prefer specific types of shooting, and their gun/gear choices typically reflect that. I don't think anyone is saying a competition gun is no good in SHTF/Zombies/Whatever or vice-versa. It's just a matter of optimizing for the intended mission. For a guy who just wants an AR to start out on, BCM is far from being a "bad joke", and that's why I think they get recommended so much.
To the OP: Jack of all trades = master of none. You seem hung up on accuracy, so I would tend toward recommending a precision rifle build for you, but ultimately it will come down to what mission is more important in your mind.
NWcityguy2
03-05-15, 12:48
BCM makes good rifles that do a number of things well, but that wasn't what I was referring to. Since I'm not here to sidetrack the thread away from the OP, I'll just leave it at that.
Another vote for JP. Doesn't seem like your building on a strict budget just to build. Definitely would go 18" barrel (Rainier Ultra match) I didn't see you mention optics unless your shooting irons out to 600 yards.
I would go with a nice 1-6 illuminated
Agreed! Although if you get a complete upper from JP, you won't be disappointed with the accuracy of their barrels. I have a couple JPs and a few LaRues. Since the OP just needs and upper, I'd go with JP. If LaRue ever sold PredaTAR or PredatOBR uppers, these would be another great choice. Also like the Swaro Z6i 1-6X if you can swing it. By once, cry once.
If you are considering 3 Gun, go to a match and talk to some of the competitors and check out their rifles if you can.
Little Yosh
03-07-15, 10:24
Thanks again for the help! Unless i am totally missing the boat, whenever "accuracy" & "precision" are mentioned, the AR needs to be built as a competition gun. Why cant you take a BCM and make it sub-MOA? Wouldnt the BCM SS410 16" be what I am looking for? On the flip side, how about the JP-15 Gladiator or VTAC? It would seem that one is a fighting rifle made to be accurate and one that is a comp gun made to be more rugged. Either way, they both accomplish the same thing, right?
Dist. Expert 26
03-07-15, 10:58
Thanks again for the help! Unless i am totally missing the boat, whenever "accuracy" & "precision" are mentioned, the AR needs to be built as a competition gun. Why cant you take a BCM and make it sub-MOA? Wouldnt the BCM SS410 16" be what I am looking for? On the flip side, how about the JP-15 Gladiator or VTAC? It would seem that one is a fighting rifle made to be accurate and one that is a comp gun made to be more rugged. Either way, they both accomplish the same thing, right?
You can absolutely make a sub-MOA combat rifle. If you have ever seen Trident82's posts he has some incredibly accurate rifles that aren't built for competition.
Having said that, I do know who Larue, Noveske, Rainier, BCM, DD, LMT and the others are.
Thanks,
Little Yosh
All of these brands have a lot to offer, you have an idea of what you want, I'd suggest searching through all of their catalogs to find a rifle that fits, no one here will knock you for purchasing one of these quality brands
turnburglar
03-07-15, 16:46
If you don't mind assembling the upper and just need a great barrel have you looked into Arp barrels? I believe they have some 18" sticks that they say will be .75-1 moa with the right loads.
That's not to say people haven't worked up handloads and gotten that accuracy with a "combat" grade barrel. It's just more of a guarantee with something like ss or qpq finished barrels.
The last JP rifle I saw was very heavy and also had some assembly issues. For the kind of money that was paid it, I would have expected a lot more.
JP Enterprises > BCM for everything you want to do. People recommending BCM for everything around here, regardless of the intended use, is becoming a bad joke. The accuracy of the JP-15 is well documented, http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/32303/jp-enterprises-jp-15/ Plus it will come competition ready, while the BCM will not.
Sorry about your state's laws.
JP enterprises makes good stuff. I've seen some purely competitive ARs that almost resemble bolt actions.
Myself, the next AR project I'm working on is a MK.12. Not a suggestion really but for what I want it will do. I would love a SAM-R upper but I think that boat is long gone.
You know; with an AR you can slap on pretty much any upper you want. If I had two lowers. And they were the only lowers I could have....
One would be a collapsible stock and the other fixed with my preference of an A1 stock (slightly shorter than a normal fixed stock).
I'd get a good stainless 24" upper purely for optics and an 18" Mk. 12 upper for my fixed stock lower. For the carbine I'd get a pinned and welded SR-15 keymod or mod 1 upper with perm MAMS and a bare stock CAR-15 16" 1:9 upper. One upper for 'heavy' use with an optic (the SR-15 upper) and the CAR15 upper for general plinking/iron sight practice. An upper I just didn't care too much about abusing.
That's just me. But it's an idea.
I was in the same situation about a year and a half ago, so not knowing enough about the AR platform to know what I really wanted, this is what I did...
I bought a relatively inexpensive but decent quality complete rifle from PSA. Then I shot it as much as possible and read/learned as much as possible, mainly from the forums. After I had it figured out, I bought a complete upper with a barrel and handguard that I wanted, added some additional furniture and misc items and sold the original upper for a fair price.
Here's what I'd do:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-16-Mid-Upper-KMR13-p/bcm-urg-mid16-ss410-kmr13.htm
Buy that as soon as it's in stock. Grab a Geissele SD-E trigger and vltor a5 set. Build a lpk from Battle Arms Development components primarily and get the rest piece by piece.
Get a good 1-6 optic (like a leupold mk6) if you're looking into 3gun, put it in nightforce rings, and get 45 degree offset irons of the KAC variety.
What exactly would the 24" crew served be used for?
Sorry about your state's laws.
JP enterprises makes good stuff. I've seen some purely competitive ARs that almost resemble bolt actions.
Myself, the next AR project I'm working on is a MK.12. Not a suggestion really but for what I want it will do. I would love a SAM-R upper but I think that boat is long gone.
You know; with an AR you can slap on pretty much any upper you want. If I had two lowers. And they were the only lowers I could have....
One would be a collapsible stock and the other fixed with my preference of an A1 stock (slightly shorter than a normal fixed stock).
I'd get a good stainless 24" upper purely for optics and an 18" Mk. 12 upper for my fixed stock lower. For the carbine I'd get a pinned and welded SR-15 keymod or mod 1 upper with perm MAMS and a bare stock CAR-15 16" 1:9 upper. One upper for 'heavy' use with an optic (the SR-15 upper) and the CAR15 upper for general plinking/iron sight practice. An upper I just didn't care too much about abusing.
That's just me. But it's an idea.
NWcityguy2
03-08-15, 17:38
The last JP rifle I saw was very heavy and also had some assembly issues. For the kind of money that was paid it, I would have expected a lot more.
Hopefully a BCM product will be vaguely better, and not suffer from the same ill defined problem that the JP rifle had.
NWcityguy2
03-08-15, 17:54
Thanks again for the help! Unless i am totally missing the boat, whenever "accuracy" & "precision" are mentioned, the AR needs to be built as a competition gun. Why cant you take a BCM and make it sub-MOA? Wouldnt the BCM SS410 16" be what I am looking for? On the flip side, how about the JP-15 Gladiator or VTAC? It would seem that one is a fighting rifle made to be accurate and one that is a comp gun made to be more rugged. Either way, they both accomplish the same thing, right?
For what you are looking for, accuracy can't be replaced by anything else but is only one part of the equation. Lets just say either one you buy will shoot sub-moa, which is what you want. The JP would still come with an adjustable gas block, a low mass BCG (which I would recommend over a traditional setup for your intended purpose) and an effective muzzle brake. Those are all things that are going to make your gun shoot faster and with more accurate follow up shots. There's a saying, "The timer doesn't lie". For an upper that comes from the factory with all the features you want, JP is the way to go IMO.
You've got two lowers buy or build a REECE 16" upper (check BCM REECE uppers). The BCM REECE Rifle uppers are SS or Hammer Forged with Mid-length gas systems. The REECE Rifle is a pretty good all around rifle.
If the REECE rifle is not competition oriented enough you can build the second lower into a Comp rifle. Comp rifles sometimes run light weight BCGs and adjustable gas blocks, etc. and are more highly tuned to specific ammo. While more tactical rifles put reliability and durability over fast cycling and accuracy. It's a generalization, but I think it basically holds. I'd rather trust my life to a rifle that I know will go bang every-dang time and won't choke when dusty dirty and using a variety of ammo, rather than a race gun tuned for speed and fine ammo.
I built all my rifles for reliability first, then handling, then accuracy. ARs built with good parts are reasonably accurate. I also do not try to make my 5.56 rifles long range shooters, I use my .308 rifles for that.
BTW - I have a 16" BCM SS barrel with a 1/8 twist. It shoots 77grain value priced CBC ammo very very well with a SSA-E G trigger and plain mil-spec adjustable buffer tube, SpringCO Blue spring, H2 buffer, & BCM BCG. I was surprised to find that I could squeeze off 10 pretty quick rounds into a nice tight small group at 100 yards without any sweat and a 1-4 scope from a bi-pod.
Skip PSA, but definitely consider BCM, DD, or Noveske.
What exactly would the 24" crew served be used for?
Purely for benchrest shooting with an optic. That and it seems less "scary" if I were in a civil rights unfriendly state. I'd prefer a good SAM-R upper really but I was told they were unlikely to see a run any time soon. I have a 24" longpike .308 and I just enjoy shooting it. More a personal preference than anything. I have a Model 10 match barrel PPC revolver for a similar reason. Sometimes I just want to make tiny holes on my own time and leisure.
If it is an AR it isn't going to matter in the barrel is 14" or 24" you will still be noticed and the term "assault rifle" will come to mind. In other words it will still be "scary".
I built all my rifles for reliability first, then handling, then accuracy. ARs built with good parts are reasonably accurate. I also do not try to make my 5.56 rifles long range shooters, I use my .308 rifles for that.
Likewise, there are tools for different jobs.
If it is an AR it isn't going to matter in the barrel is 14" or 24" you will still be noticed and the term "assault rifle" will come to mind. In other words it will still be "scary".
I don't know. Maybe politically to people who spend their lives being killjoys. In a purely unscientific test, I've seen people warm up to a mossy oak Remington AR15 and think it was just another hunting rifle and be literally afraid of a 6920 because 'it was a machine gun'.
Really though my guns are for me and I've had a lot of zen meditation behind a 24". Granted it is a .308 and a 21 year old rifle but I still enjoy it.
The 24" would be my sunny day go to the range upper. The mk.12 would be my go to the hills rifle. I just like a little heft to rest in a sandbag.
Achilles11B
03-08-15, 19:48
Another vote for BCM here, they come highly recommended for a variety of reasons. If you still want to emphasize accuracy, I've had great results from LaRue's Stealth line of uppers. They're a bit on the pricey side but very, very capable.
Unfortunately I have to be "vague" due to the amount of trash I see on a fairly regularly basis. If lugging around a 11 pound rifle with incorrect buffer, lack of carrier key stakings, etc.. appeals to some I would recommend checking them out.
Considering the amount of rounds myself and others have put through BCM and other AR's I have confidence in them.
Hopefully a BCM product will be vaguely better, and not suffer from the same ill defined problem that the JP rifle had.
Exactly. Just rename it "sniper" rifle and you have created another vilified object.
If it is an AR it isn't going to matter in the barrel is 14" or 24" you will still be noticed and the term "assault rifle" will come to mind. In other words it will still be "scary".
I'm straying into opinion territory here but hearing the term "sniper rifle" bugs me as most "sniper rifles" are just rifles with a scope. The main complainers always want to label something with a scary, militaristic term. The video game kids on the internet who tout their new Remington 770 with a cheap tasco as their "R700 sniper rifle" do not help. I always thought a well trained actual military sniper made the rifle what it was. There were Civil War sharp shooters(the term of the day) who were precursors to modern military snipers who would stand in awe of a pre 64 Winchester and a redfield scope. In fact I always found it amusing and disheartening that Colts C.A.R. stood for Colt Accurized Rifle despite being stainless freefloat flattop to avoid the whole "sniper" connotations.
But on topic, the only JP part that ever interested me really was their free float handguard. I believe Viking Tactics makes a similar or uses a rebranded version. That and I have a friend who uses one of their brakes on a gamer gun. Can't speak to the quality of their BCGs or complete rifles nor will I. I do believe they upcharge to the gamer gun crowd.
FWIW the Mk12 upper I want would be the BCM. It's simply a matter of saving my rubles and kopecks for one. Still kick myself over missing the SAM-R upper boat. I keep bringing it up but only in testament to how much I wanted one. C'est la vie.
Eurodriver
03-09-15, 07:46
Bailey Jay...
Damnit...
Little Yosh
03-09-15, 10:28
Well, apparently, anything I buy must be an HBAR. (Another reason to hate the state I live in.) Since all of BCM comes preconfigured, looks like I need to look at a custom build. Unless I am missing something?
I'll give JP a call and I hear Virginia Arms in Manassas is pretty good... I'll keep you updated on what I decide.
Thanks again!
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