View Full Version : Need a longer throw weapon light...
I went out to let the dog in the other night and smelled a pretty good wiff of skunk! I realized that since he didn't smell too bad that it must not have been a direct spray, but rather wafting in on the fairly strong wind. I grabbed the AR and headed outside to check it out and make sure it moved on. I have had a surefire G2X tactical for awhile but have not gotten a mount for it since I installed the Noveske rail. I clamped it to the rail with my hand and scanned the perimeter of the property and surrounding fields. It lit the property well, but the beam left a lot to be desired for distance illumination. Do you guys and gals have any options for a longer throw weapon light? I would rather not have it too much larger than the G2X, and I would like something that is at least 400 yards capable for target ID. I am open to other options besides surefire also.
P2X or P3X Fury Defender.
If looking/needing a "longer throw," then a Turbo head is in order and not necessarily a brighter lumens flashlight. Hope you find what you're looking for!
If looking/needing a "longer throw," then a Turbo head is in order and not necessarily a brighter lumens flashlight. Hope you find what you're looking for!
Yeah. That's my understanding. A larger head is needed to increase throw.
Elzetta Bravo, built like a tank. If you have skunks around you might want to keep the K9 on leash after dark. Mine has been sprayed three times, it is not a fun experience.
I have the streamlight tlr-1 hl and it throws pretty far.
400 yards is a decent distance to illuminate at night. In my opinion you'll want to avoid the surefire fury and elzetta lights. They have high lumens but the beam isn't concentrated enough. In a 2 cell cr123 the scout m600 ultra has pretty good throw, much better than a fury.
400 yards is a decent distance to illuminate at night.
It's a huge distance. Any time we've shot at night with our variety of weapon lights, 100 yards becomes challenging, and the target stands end up getting shot to hell.
Adrenaline_6
03-09-15, 12:47
You will have to go with a custom modded light. I have an Eagletac S200C2 that has been modded by a guy that is a well known modder on the candlepower forums. He does great work. This light is an absolute beast of a thrower. He will change out the LED to either an XML2 U3 or XPG2, dedome it, and mount it to copper for better heat dissipation....whatever you decide.
The options I have include the new 4 mode driver that always starts off on High (SL Driver), the PDC (perfect tint) upgrade and the V54 engraving. Just email Vinh and let him know what you want. Tell him that Adrenaline_6 (same nickname on other forum) ordered a S200cVN from him on November 11 and it was for a S200cVN with the 5.5 A, 4 mode 1700 lumen driver. He will know what you are talking about. Also, make sure to let him know this will also be mounted on a weapon. He will reinforce the necessary internals as part of the mod.
All lights from him are lifetime guaranteed and if not a warrantee issue, will fix them for just parts and shipping if needed. He will also upgrade them to a newer technology LED, driver, etc if it comes along if you just let him know and charge you for the parts and shipping. Great guy to deal with. This was my first light from him and it won't be my last. I even payed him with the paypal gift option without worry. He's been doing work there for a long time. He mods amazing lights.
Make sure you get a charger for the 18650 lithium cells and also make sure you get the right cells that can handle that high amp continuous discharge rate. You can order them online or get them from Vinh with the light. You CANNOT put CR123's in this light!
If all you have messed with are Surefires, Elzettas, Predators this light will absolutely destroy anything you have ever seen. You will be amazed. You can literally temporarily blind someone in the daytime with their eyelids shut. Too much for a small room, but what you are looking to do is perfect.
Light link: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?383528-WTS-S200C2vn-Baby-Throw-King
Link for all his lights: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?371949-V54-Light-List
I think the TLR-1 HP is the closest thing you're going to get out of the box
http://www.amazon.com/Streamlight-TLR-1s-HP-White-LED/dp/B007S84ZYO
Streamlight claims 429 meters which would well exceed your 400 yard requirement. Never used one but I am very impressed with my TLR-1 HL.
Adrenaline_6
03-09-15, 13:54
Candela or Kcd is what determines throw.
The TLR-1HP is rated at 46,000 candela or 46 Kcd.
The Armytek Predator Pro will get you 51 Kcd. It is a good light, but the beam is narrow @10 degrees with very little spill. It is rated out to 450M.
For comparison, the S200c2VN I have is +150 Kcd. It has a nice halo around it for spill and the tint is superior for color rendition.
Get someone to mod a light with an aspheric lens on it. I have a 8 year old Tiablo A9 with aspheric on it that still out-throws any of my modern lights.
Adrenaline_6
03-10-15, 08:50
Get someone to mod a light with an aspheric lens on it. I have a 8 year old Tiablo A9 with aspheric on it that still out-throws any of my modern lights.
Ask and you shall receive. This modded Nightmaster throws 204KcD!
http://www.onestopthrowshop.com/product.sc?productId=9&categoryId=3
Aspherics are great if all you want is all throw with no spill. Which LED did your T9 have? Even if you have the Tiablo A9 with the XR-E R2 LED, you got about 48-60 Kcd max.
Ask and you shall receive. This modded Nightmaster throws 204KcD!
http://www.onestopthrowshop.com/product.sc?productId=9&categoryId=3
Aspherics are great if all you want is all throw with no spill. Which LED did your T9 have? Even if you have the Tiablo A9 with the XR-E R2 LED, you got about 48-60 Kcd max.
Wow, I'm behind. Those are impressive throw numbers. The Tiablo was king when it came out. That was... quite awhile ago though. Thanks for the link!
As an aside: people everywhere seem to think that raw lumen output = throw - not so. The Surefire Ultra Lights and all of these 500-600 lumen lights that are coming out use XM-L LEDs with a huge die. You'll get tons of spill but little throw. You're going to need a light pushing a small die LED to its limits with either an aspheric setup or a very deep and large reflector to reach 400 yards with any usability.
Adrenaline_6
03-10-15, 10:01
Not a problem...always willing to help out.
Yes, lumen numbers are great, but if your dividing them over a broader area, it dissipates quickly the farther it travels. It is hard for people to grasp that sometimes. I just use a flood light versus a laser analogy. The laser has a lot less lumens, but is concentrated, so it goes farther than the flood light does...but the lasewr only lights up a small area versus the flood light lights up the whole background. Finding a good balance is the challenge.
The modded S200cVN I got from Vinh is incredible. Its an XML die, but is dedomed for better throw and it is pushing 5.5 Amps. It throws 150Kcd due to brute force and because Vinh sets the reflector distance by hand, it has the perfect beam, A very bright tight spot beam with a bright halo around it for a very useable spill.
Beamshots from the S200cVN sale thread...(These are not mine):
http://s42.photobucket.com/user/engineeringmatt09/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0549_zps3486292e.jpg.html
http://s42.photobucket.com/user/engineeringmatt09/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0546_zps6c381479.jpg.html
Elzetta Bravo, built like a tank. If you have skunks around you might want to keep the K9 on leash after dark. Mine has been sprayed three times, it is not a fun experience.
Ugh...I was thankful that it was only close by in the air and his hair didn't smell the next day!
You will have to go with a custom modded light. I have an Eagletac S200C2 that has been modded by a guy that is a well known modder on the candlepower forums. He does great work. This light is an absolute beast of a thrower. He will change out the LED to either an XML2 U3 or XPG2, dedome it, and mount it to copper for better heat dissipation....whatever you decide.
The options I have include the new 4 mode driver that always starts off on High (SL Driver), the PDC (perfect tint) upgrade and the V54 engraving. Just email Vinh and let him know what you want. Tell him that Adrenaline_6 (same nickname on other forum) ordered a S200cVN from him on November 11 and it was for a S200cVN with the 5.5 A, 4 mode 1700 lumen driver. He will know what you are talking about. Also, make sure to let him know this will also be mounted on a weapon. He will reinforce the necessary internals as part of the mod.
All lights from him are lifetime guaranteed and if not a warrantee issue, will fix them for just parts and shipping if needed. He will also upgrade them to a newer technology LED, driver, etc if it comes along if you just let him know and charge you for the parts and shipping. Great guy to deal with. This was my first light from him and it won't be my last. I even payed him with the paypal gift option without worry. He's been doing work there for a long time. He mods amazing lights.
Make sure you get a charger for the 18650 lithium cells and also make sure you get the right cells that can handle that high amp continuous discharge rate. You can order them online or get them from Vinh with the light. You CANNOT put CR123's in this light!
If all you have messed with are Surefires, Elzettas, Predators this light will absolutely destroy anything you have ever seen. You will be amazed. You can literally temporarily blind someone in the daytime with their eyelids shut. Too much for a small room, but what you are looking to do is perfect.
Light link: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?383528-WTS-S200C2vn-Baby-Throw-King
Link for all his lights: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?371949-V54-Light-List
Thanks for the info! I will check into this. I've been on the site recently and most of the technology jargon might as well be in French for me!
Adrenaline_6
03-10-15, 20:37
Thanks for the info! I will check into this. I've been on the site recently and most of the technology jargon might as well be in French for me!
I can translate for you. Just ask. I'm happy to educate and help out.
I think the TLR-1 HP is the closest thing you're going to get out of the box
http://www.amazon.com/Streamlight-TLR-1s-HP-White-LED/dp/B007S84ZYO
Streamlight claims 429 meters which would well exceed your 400 yard requirement. Never used one but I am very impressed with my TLR-1 HL.
I saw this light on Super Dave Harrington's carbine last year and it does have intense throw. No one was running an m600 that night to compare but it made my p2x Fury look silly at 100yds.
lobstradomus
03-10-15, 21:16
Thanks for the info! I will check into this. I've been on the site recently and most of the technology jargon might as well be in French for me!
Since we know what light you have and what its rated at in terms of candela and beam distance, if you give us what you think it's actual usable distance is for where you are and what you want to do we can probably work out what kind of candela rating your new light will need in order to achieve your goals.
For instance, your current light is rated at 183 meters, if it offers enough illumination at that distance for you then you will probably be OK with any light rated at around 40kcd+. However, at 183 meters your current light only illuminates an object roughly the same amount as a full moon would -not great and probably not enough for your needs.
If you think that your current light is bright enough for what you want it to do at only 100 meters, with a bit of maths we can then estimate that you will need a light with peak candela up around 128kcd which for a hand held light is definitely in the territory of the custom jobs by Vinh or OSTS as mentioned before.
Since we know what light you have and what its rated at in terms of candela and beam distance, if you give us what you think it's actual usable distance is for where you are and what you want to do we can probably work out what kind of candela rating your new light will need in order to achieve your goals.
For instance, your current light is rated at 183 meters, if it offers enough illumination at that distance for you then you will probably be OK with any light rated at around 40kcd+. However, at 183 meters your current light only illuminates an object roughly the same amount as a full moon would -not great and probably not enough for your needs.
If you think that your current light is bright enough for what you want it to do at only 100 meters, with a bit of maths we can then estimate that you will need a light with peak candela up around 128kcd which for a hand held light is definitely in the territory of the custom jobs by Vinh or OSTS as mentioned before.
The G2X is a great light for in the house. It's has a bright hot spot and good spill for lighting up a room. I have been very disappointed in distances beyond 100 to 150 yards with it. Moonlight at the 200 yard rating that it advertises is not cutting it. (Not the lights fault) I think I need a much tighter beam with far less spill to see the critters at closer to 400 yards.
Not a problem...always willing to help out.
Yes, lumen numbers are great, but if your dividing them over a broader area, it dissipates quickly the farther it travels. It is hard for people to grasp that sometimes. I just use a flood light versus a laser analogy. The laser has a lot less lumens, but is concentrated, so it goes farther than the flood light does...but the lasewr only lights up a small area versus the flood light lights up the whole background. Finding a good balance is the challenge.
The modded S200cVN I got from Vinh is incredible. Its an XML die, but is dedomed for better throw and it is pushing 5.5 Amps. It throws 150Kcd due to brute force and because Vinh sets the reflector distance by hand, it has the perfect beam, A very bright tight spot beam with a bright halo around it for a very useable spill.
Beamshots from the S200cVN sale thread...(These are not mine):
http://s42.photobucket.com/user/engineeringmatt09/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0549_zps3486292e.jpg.html
http://s42.photobucket.com/user/engineeringmatt09/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0546_zps6c381479.jpg.html
Very nice indeed. Vinh does great work. I don't know if I'd trust any de-domed dies in a weaponlight, but very impressive nonetheless. Are you on CPF?
Adrenaline_6
03-11-15, 11:13
Very nice indeed. Vinh does great work. I don't know if I'd trust any de-domed dies in a weaponlight, but very impressive nonetheless. Are you on CPF?
Yes, I am. Same nickname. Once I told Vinh it was to be a weaponlight, he said he would reinforce what needed to be for an extra $40. I asked him, if it wasn't advisable to use as a weaponlight I would be willing to change my order. He said he hasn't had one light that he reinforced fail to date, so I took his word on it.
From now on, I will make sure I leave it mounted when I take it to the range, to make sure it will take the constant abuse.
lobstradomus
03-11-15, 12:47
The G2X is a great light for in the house. It's has a bright hot spot and good spill for lighting up a room. I have been very disappointed in distances beyond 100 to 150 yards with it. Moonlight at the 200 yard rating that it advertises is not cutting it. (Not the lights fault) I think I need a much tighter beam with far less spill to see the critters at closer to 400 yards.
So to get the same illumination at 400 yards as you are currently getting with your G2X at 150 yards or 100 yards you will need a light with a peak rating of at least ~57.8kcd or ~130kcd respectively.
The two lights that Adrenaline_6 mentioned (the NightMaster from OSTS and the S200cVN from Vinh,) will both exceed those requirements. If you want an example of what those two lights should theoretically be capable of, you will need to set up some sort of representative targets at both 80 and 93 yards. Using a length of pipe or something similar to block out all of the corona and side spill leaving only the very center of the hotspot, shine the now very narrow beam of your G2X at the 80 yard target - that should be roughly similar to what the NightMaster will look like at 400 yards. The S200cVN can be loosely demonstrated the same way but by using the 93 yard target and with a bit less filtering of the beam.
Keep in mind though that the comparisons will not be perfectly representative as we have moved from theoretical to real world and back a couple of times in coming up with the above numbers and we have glanced over a few important factors such as the limitations of the human eye -especially as it relates to the difference between perceived brightness vs actual and the effects of distance, beam shape, ambient light, etc. on that difference.
I just realized I've probably spent too much time on CPF over the past six years. Well, at least you don't have to go over there to get a bunch of jargon -I've gone ahead and posted it right here for you. Sorry about that.
Adrenaline_6
03-11-15, 14:34
So to get the same illumination at 400 yards as you are currently getting with your G2X at 150 yards or 100 yards you will need a light with a peak rating of at least ~57.8kcd or ~130kcd respectively.
The two lights that Adrenaline_6 mentioned (the NightMaster from OSTS and the S200cVN from Vinh,) will both exceed those requirements. If you want an example of what those two lights should theoretically be capable of, you will need to set up some sort of representative targets at both 80 and 93 yards. Using a length of pipe or something similar to block out all of the corona and side spill leaving only the very center of the hotspot, shine the now very narrow beam of your G2X at the 80 yard target - that should be roughly similar to what the NightMaster will look like at 400 yards. The S200cVN can be loosely demonstrated the same way but by using the 93 yard target and with a bit less filtering of the beam.
Keep in mind though that the comparisons will not be perfectly representative as we have moved from theoretical to real world and back a couple of times in coming up with the above numbers and we have glanced over a few important factors such as the limitations of the human eye -especially as it relates to the difference between perceived brightness vs actual and the effects of distance, beam shape, ambient light, etc. on that difference.
I just realized I've probably spent too much time on CPF over the past six years. Well, at least you don't have to go over there to get a bunch of jargon -I've gone ahead and posted it right here for you. Sorry about that.
I like it!
Very helpful! Thanks lobstradomus! You and Adrenaline 6 must be what they call flash-a-holics?:D
Adrenaline_6
03-12-15, 17:50
Very helpful! Thanks lobstradomus! You and Adrenaline 6 must be what they call flash-a-holics?:D
...and once you get your modded light in, you might be one too!
JBecker 72
03-12-15, 18:00
How does the M600U rate in the "throw" department. I've been impressed with mine, just curious how it rates.
How does the M600U rate in the "throw" department. I've been impressed with mine, just curious how it rates.
+1.
I've been using a P2x Fury 500 lumen and it's fine out 50-75 yards depending on the night.
I also shot with a P3X Fury 1000 lumen and it was a little better. 100 yards with a 4X scope was easy as long as the target was contrasting (no illuminuted reticle).
What gets me at night with magnified optics is haze. It's real humid around here and when it gets close to dewpoint, it's hazy.
lobstradomus
03-13-15, 00:45
Very helpful! Thanks lobstradomus! You and Adrenaline 6 must be what they call flash-a-holics?:D
Happy to help, hopefully you can find the right light for your needs. Yes, my name is lobstradomus and I'm a flashaholic.
...and once you get your modded light in, you might be one too!
Agreed, there are plenty of different ways to get hooked. Some people go for the refined custom jobs hewn from exotic materials such as titanium or damascus steel and fitted with tritium vials, others go for the beastly multi-emitter or massive industrial size LED powerhouses putting out a wall of several thousand lumens, others go for the long distance throwers with customized LED's using aspheric lenses or massive reflectors, a few become tint snobs - looking for that perfect balance of color temperature and color rendering index... It's a dangerous hobby to get involved in.
lobstradomus
03-13-15, 01:19
How does the M600U rate in the "throw" department. I've been impressed with mine, just curious how it rates.
The M600U uses a TIR optic that is able to focus the light tighter than a regular reflector like the ones used in the G2X/6PX/P2X lights, as a result the P2X with its 600 lumens is calculated to have a beam distance of 243 meters while the M600U with its 500 lumens is calculated at a distance of 260 meters.
+1.
I've been using a P2x Fury 500 lumen and it's fine out 50-75 yards depending on the night.
I also shot with a P3X Fury 1000 lumen and it was a little better. 100 yards with a 4X scope was easy as long as the target was contrasting (no illuminuted reticle).
What gets me at night with magnified optics is haze. It's real humid around here and when it gets close to dewpoint, it's hazy.
The P3X uses a reflector like the P2X but because the P3X is generating 1,000 lumens it basically bludgeons its way to a calculated distance of 297 meters. If you want some of the more technical details of how it actually manages that the term you want to research is surface brightness.
JBecker 72
03-13-15, 06:35
The M600U uses a TIR optic that is able to focus the light tighter than a regular reflector like the ones used in the G2X/6PX/P2X lights, as a result the P2X with its 600 lumens is calculated to have a beam distance of 243 meters while the M600U with its 500 lumens is calculated at a distance of 260 meters.
Thanks for the info.
I went out to let the dog in the other night and smelled a pretty good wiff of skunk! I realized that since he didn't smell too bad that it must not have been a direct spray, but rather wafting in on the fairly strong wind. I grabbed the AR and headed outside to check it out and make sure it moved on. I have had a surefire G2X tactical for awhile but have not gotten a mount for it since I installed the Noveske rail. I clamped it to the rail with my hand and scanned the perimeter of the property and surrounding fields. It lit the property well, but the beam left a lot to be desired for distance illumination. Do you guys and gals have any options for a longer throw weapon light? I would rather not have it too much larger than the G2X, and I would like something that is at least 400 yards capable for target ID. I am open to other options besides surefire also.
For the same form-factor (handheld) and ability to use the same mount, I would look at the Streamlight ProTac HL3. It's a 3-cell CR123 light rated @ 1100 lumens/36,000 candela, with a pretty good bang/buck ratio. I have one that I picked up for well under $80, and it is more than adequate.
For the same form-factor (handheld) and ability to use the same mount, I would look at the Streamlight ProTac HL3. It's a 3-cell CR123 light rated @ 1100 lumens/36,000 candela, with a pretty good bang/buck ratio. I have one that I picked up for well under $80, and it is more than adequate.
Thanks, I'll check it out!
The Streamlight PolyTac HP throws pretty far, but not as far as their TLR1 HP. That's what I run on my 16" carbine with a 1-4x on it, I'm happy with the performance out to 100+ yards. The new TLR1-HPL should be shipping soon, and that might be the new distance king for of the shelf WML's.
It's a dangerous hobby to get involved in.
Which is one of the reasons I had to back away for awhile. I was always buying another light or two for every new bin of every new LED that came out. After awhile I ended up with enough flashlights to supply a small army. The difference in performance between each successive new "bad-ass" LED was usually so insignificant that I've been a happier man waiting every couple of years between lights now. Nothing like skipping a few bins or LEDs in general just to get that "Wow that's bright" feeling again - it's like a heroin junky looking for that first high.
I used to upgrade my computer twice a year and could never detect that much difference in performance. Now I treat my computers the same way and I'm absolutely blown away by two year old technology. Try it... you'll be a richer happier man.
But seriously, it's a dangerous hobby. I inadvertently made a hand grenade while trying to drive an XM-L I found with a salvaged driver. I measured 5A at the tailcap before it blew. It was insanely bright for about 3 minutes. I blame the Efest IMR 18650s I was using. Another reason I don't trust multi-cell lithium lights anymore. I also don't really mess with rechargeables. Having to constantly keep up with them and keep a minimum charge in them was eating up too much of my time. I have like 2000 primaries anyway. Needless to say, I don't modify many lights these days.
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