View Full Version : Found a great use for +P ammo
So, I keep my .45s stoked with 230gr HSTs. I had recently come into a trade that I couldn't pass up - 250 rounds of 230gr .45ACP +P HST for $100 (my buddy bought them then realized that his gun wasn't +P rated). I don't like to feed my guns +P so I had an idea. When I was a kid I would load a tracer round as the last two rounds in my mag so that I could get a visual indicator of when I was about to run out. Well - that didn't work too well. But the concept was solid. So I've been loading the the last two rounds in my high-cap .45 mags with the HST +P so that I can get tactile feedback on when I'm due for a reload.
I practice a lot with HSTs so the +P should be very distinct when fired. Anyone else do anything similar? It makes a lot of sense to me.
Im just a guy on the internet but here are some thoughts:
That seems a bit counterproductive and not very practical. If, God forbid, you do get into an armed confrontation; you won't know what the difference in rounds is. Moreover, you will not care. It will be fast, dynamic, and only gross motorskills will be in play. Assuming you have trained, you will most likely run the gun to the point all ammo is expended or failure. You will then rely on trained gross motor skills to reload or perform a remedial action drill. If you are in a sustained fight, and there is a surcease behind cover, then you will do a reload in battery and if there are rounds left; retain partially loaded magazine.
Tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and adrenaline dump comes into play. Provided you are just johnny on the ball, you will still shake. Fear has nothing to do with it. Once you dump, you shake. All of these sympathetic physiological things occurring will not be conducive to feeling if a round has more or less recoil or not.
Even if you shy from constantly using +p ammo(which isn't a bad idea. It can wear on a gun)....whatever you carry you should practice with.
You may gain more from merely practicing controlled groups and reload drills. Muscle memory trumps anything cognizant. Fact.
Good luck with whatever you try. Hopefully you find something that works.
Nope. I practice with practice ammo.
All my HSTs are +p.
Crow Hunter
03-10-15, 14:22
Just another guy on the internet but I would think that if you are actually in a self defense shooting and you are focusing on the recoil characteristics of your weapon you are doing it wrong. ;)
Guns-up.50
03-10-15, 14:33
Just another guy on the internet but I would think that if you are actually in a self defense shooting and you are focusing on the recoil characteristics of your weapon you are doing it wrong. ;)
In a you or them situation, you wont notice the recoil difference. I agree +p has more recoil but , i cant tell the difference most of the time in training. Let alone coupled with the pucker factor.
You won't feel the recoil if you fire in defense and you will also not hear the report of firing. Stupid idea.
sevenhelmet
03-10-15, 15:12
Agree with others, loading a different ammo as a "low ammo warning" probably won't be as effective as you think. I've never once heard a professional pistol instructor recommend this even as a technique, and I'll bet there is a reason for that.
My advice would be to try it with a dynamic drill and see how much of the time you can actually tell while switching targets, moving, shooting from behind cover (braced?) etc.
lol... Please take a very stressful class like a force on force and let me know how the recoil felt at the end of the mag.
Take it from someone who has been there. You'll never feel the difference.
Time for a different plan.
You'll never feel the difference.
I know that only from training, but it's crazy how little those words actually get through to people until they see it first hand.
wildcard600
03-10-15, 16:27
You would be better off going back to the tracer idea (still not a good plan).
IMO
sevenhelmet
03-10-15, 16:56
Just load all tracers. Or better yet, incendiaries. Ever seen what an incendiary round does to a home invader? Neither has the jury.
Kidding, kidding, all in good fun...
Did you get this from reddit or something?
teutonicpolymer
03-10-15, 19:27
I can't feel a difference between +p and regular
This isn't like .357 mag vs .38 spc
Straight Shooter
03-11-15, 06:38
I will say that without any doubt, the +P 230 Magtech ammo I have is very noticeable in recoil compared to standard pressure 230 ammo.
That being said...I would have a distinct fear of THAT being my cue to reload when shits hittin the fan. I would re-think that plan sir.
Well, I figured my idea wouldn't be met with much enthusiasm. I've always been an opponent of mixing ammo in mags (besides when I was a kid and did the tracer thing). I usually practice with my carry load (yes, it gets expensive). Now, I'm not defending my idea, because it's just that - an idea - I've heard of other people doing the tracer thing but never the +p thing. I've fired thousands of rounds of 230gr HST and know exactly what to expect when I pull the trigger. A +P HST COULD (I say could because I've never popped one off) produce enough difference in felt recoil that I BELIEVE that it COULD be a useful trick. Same as those saying that I wouldn't notice the extra kick when my adrenaline is pumping - when you're in engaged in a fight or flight situation, counting rounds is also something far from your mind. Sometimes during rapid fire drills I lose track of how many I've let loose. I agree with most of you that it's probably a bad idea - but, if you trained exclusively with the technique, there's no doubt in my mind that it could be useful. Not everyone gets an adrenaline surge and tunnel vision when engaging in combat, regardless of the weapon being used.
If you're cool as a cucumber and are able to "fight past the haze" of your fight or flight response... I'm just saying... No two people are the same. I've been in a lot of fist fights and even had a few knives pulled on me. I've been attacked by multiple aggressors. I've trained in martial arts my whole life. When I was young, I would get tunnel vision and go into berserk mode (hulk smash). After enough fights and training I learned to overcome that reaction and remain calm - allowing me to control the fight and thus win. I can't claim to have been in a gun fight, but I imagine it's exactly the same.
Anyway, not trying to argue - just throwing out an idea that I still think may have some viability. No two people are the same and to instantly presume that someone is going to lose it in a gun fight and not be able to tell the difference between firing 12 rounds of normal pressure loads immediately followed by a +P round is kind of... close minded, honestly. Coming up with new ideas, no matter how impractical they may seem can lead to new thoughts and advancements in training. I'm not saying it's the greatest idea ever, but I'm not willing to instantly discount it as an effective technique. No one should until they've tried it and can actually report back as to whether or not it helped them. Until then it's all conjecture. I don't claim to be right... It's just conjecture.
You can continue to rag on me for thinking of a use for my +P HSTs, but I wasn't trying to say that it's the "end all be all" method of loading your mags. Without testing it is all just conjecture.
So to sum it up, I get where you're all coming from, and I don't disagree with any of you really. I just don't think that it should be instantly discounted either.
Feel free to continue telling me what a bad idea it is, I'm still going to the range this weekend with a pile of mags loaded in this fashion to see for myself if I think it's tactically viable. I've never fired a +P HST so I don't know the difference in felt recoil between one and a regular HST so this could all be a moot point.
Forums are for sharing ideas... even silly ones... New ideas lead to different ways of thinking which lead to advancements in training and techniques. Less than 200 years ago, modern warfare consisted of people meeting each other head on, firing muskets into lines of soldiers and then ducking to reload.
OK, before I write a novel, I should just cut it off there. I concur that it's probably a bad idea, I just wanted to throw it out there... In the future we'll all have blinking LED low-ammo indicators on our weapons anyway.
Psalms144.1
03-11-15, 09:37
Shao - you got some ammo you don't want to shoot/carry all day every day at a good price. You've come up with a novel way to use it. Rock on with your bad self and let us know what happens on the range.
To be perfectly honest, though, the only way to REALLY test if you can tell the difference is by a blind experiment. Have someone else load your magazines with random ammo, keeping track of which rounds are the +P. Shoot a standard timed drill (I like the Bill drill for this, or the FAST - anything that will keep you focusing on the target and gun handling, not on what ammo's in the chamber), and see if you can "call" the +Ps. If you can, consistently, then your idea might work, for you.
I'm with the majority in that, based on physiological changes beyond your control in an extreme stress situation, I really doubt you'll ever notice the difference in a gun fight.
Let us know how it goes!
I don't think people are ragging on you. You have a novel idea, and ask for opinions, and got lots of responses... IF you don't mind, what do you do for a living? Lots of fist fights, and thousands of rounds of HST fired seems like a pretty exciting existence.
OP, speaking for myself, I wasn't ragging. Just saying.
You have a lot of what I'll call "book ideas". It would sound interesting on paper. Seem moderately appealing in a theoretical sense to those unfamiliar with the rote practice, and seem innovative because nobody else ever brings it up. Sort of like your magazine light idea.
But when the rubber meets the road...no. It would be impractical.
And it is possible to be detached (I'm loathe to say "calm") in a long range rifle fight but if you're in a handgun something horrible has happened and being calm and cool just ain't gonna happen.
It is simply too unnatural and too high risk. Because if, God forbid, you are in a handgun fight and especially indoors or a vehicle then you are most likely going to get shot too. The better instructors will tell you that the worst fight you can be in is a pistol fight. That your chances for death and injury skyrocket. And a lot of life altering and life ending things occur at short distance and very fast.
Watch any dashcam footage on youtube. Hundreds to pick from.
I appreciate creativity and ideas but....no. Just, no. Sorry.
Not practical. Not feasible.
Not sure when the OP was a kid, but the tracer idea goes back to the VN era. In 1970, 5th SFGA published Detachment B52's Recon Tips of the Trade which included; "3. The last three rounds in each magazine should be tracer. This reminds the firer that he needs a loaded magazine." Joe Alderman was one of the Project Delta authors. FWIW
I don't know that the difference would work in standard .45 versus +p but I have seen the odd .357 magnum mixed in with .38 +p scare the hell out of the shooter.
Crow Hunter
03-11-15, 13:37
I'm not saying that you wouldn't be able to notice.
I am not saying that it might not be some type of an indicator that you are getting close to running out of ammo.
What I am saying is that if you are in a gun fight for your life, you should not be diverting any focus to the recoil characteristics of your weapon.
Humans have a very, very finite ability to focus and people really can't multi-task as well as they think they can. If you are training yourself to "multi-task" in by trying to both focus on your front sight, what the target is doing, your own surroundings (cover/concealment) AND how hard your gun is recoiling, you are going to have to lose some focus on something else. A "something else" that may have a much higher likelihood of successfully ending the fight.
Your weapon, if operating correctly, will lock open when you run out of rounds. That will prompt you when to reload. Otherwise, you should be focused on sending HSTs downrange as accurately and quickly as possible until the threat is ended. You shouldn't be worried about how many rounds you have left.
Your gun will also weigh quite a bit less when you get down to the last 2 rounds but I don't think anyone would want to focus on the weight of your gun during a fight either.;)
Here again just to add that yeah...an odd 357 amongst .38s is quite noticeable but...all .45 feels the same to me.
I have shot some screwing around ammo that had some Federal +P+ 9mm mixed in through a P226 and that made me go "Do wha..?!" But it was by surprise. It was a mixed lot. Luckily no Hirtenberger subgun ammo was loaded as there were a few rounds. Had I not seen the little crosshair HP headstamp.
Yikes. Would've sucked. This was a strange mix of 'get rid of it' ammo that I was given that was too old for any duty use so here enjoy. Little did I know some MP5 ammo got mixed in. If you ever get bagged or unmarked or mismatched lot ammo even from a respectable source. Check it out. I get bored and OCD. Before I went to the range. I looked at it all. I simply saved it until I got to shoot an MP5 again. I know it was rare I guess but...lol..no. You don't want to put that in a pistol. That was quite a while ago.
I ramble but you only notice stuff like this on a range. But the .357 thing. That's legit.
Guys I personally work with that have been involved in shootings couldn't accurately tell you their engaged distance, number of rounds fired, if they did do a mag change, etc.
Shao - you got some ammo you don't want to shoot/carry all day every day at a good price. You've come up with a novel way to use it. Rock on with your bad self and let us know what happens on the range.
Let us know how it goes!
Will report back with results Sunday or Monday. Thanks!
I don't think people are ragging on you. You have a novel idea, and ask for opinions, and got lots of responses... IF you don't mind, what do you do for a living? Lots of fist fights, and thousands of rounds of HST fired seems like a pretty exciting existence.
I'm just a regular guy with a clandestine job that's been shooting extensively for 30+ years who happened to grow up in a tough neighborhood and unfortunately spent 8 months in a foreign prison.
Not sure when the OP was a kid, but the tracer idea goes back to the VN era. In 1970, 5th SFGA published Detachment B52's Recon Tips of the Trade which included; "3. The last three rounds in each magazine should be tracer. This reminds the firer that he needs a loaded magazine." Joe Alderman was one of the Project Delta authors. FWIW
I'm a child of the 80s, born in 76. I don't know where I got the tracer idea. Thanks for sharing that nugget of info.
Your gun will also weigh quite a bit less when you get down to the last 2 rounds but I don't think anyone would want to focus on the weight of your gun during a fight either.;)
Your weapon, if operating correctly, will lock open when you run out of rounds. That will prompt you when to reload. Otherwise, you should be focused on sending HSTs downrange as accurately and quickly as possible until the threat is ended. You shouldn't be worried about how many rounds you have left.
Which I would think would amplify the effects of the felt recoil of the +P rounds.... Anyway, that's the reasoning behind loading two as the last - I'd rather know when my mag is almost empty rather than be forced into a surprise reload. It's like a low ammo indicator. Loading one would be pointless because as you pointed out, the slide locks back anyway. I'd like to know when I have one round left in the magazine.
Crow Hunter
03-12-15, 12:52
Which I would think would amplify the effects of the felt recoil of the +P rounds.... Anyway, that's the reasoning behind loading two as the last - I'd rather know when my mag is almost empty rather than be forced into a surprise reload. It's like a low ammo indicator. Loading one would be pointless because as you pointed out, the slide locks back anyway. I'd like to know when I have one round left in the magazine.
Why do you want to know that you have one round left in the magazine?
What would you be doing differently than if you had a full magazine?
You should keep making accurate hits until the threat is neutralized or you get to slidelock/have a malfunction. If that happens, you correct it and immediately go back to neutralizing the threat.
Anticipating a difference in recoil and paying attention to how the gun is recoiling in your hands can't do anything but diminish your focus on your front sight and your target. Both of those will probably have a bigger effect on your survival that knowing if you are going to need to change a magazine with 2 more trigger pulls.
I can't see what knowing I have 2 more rounds is going to gain me.
Edumacate me.
Here's my prediction: you'll notice a difference in recoil and think it's a good idea so you run with it. That's fine but realize that you only notice it because you're looking for it. Doubtful you will notice it when the adrenaline is pumping.
Heck, I don't even notice the recoil of 3.5", 2.125 oz, 12ga loads when I'm out turkey hunting.
...and they're not shooting back at me either.
Why do you want to know that you have one round left in the magazine?
What would you be doing differently than if you had a full magazine?
You should keep making accurate hits until the threat is neutralized or you get to slidelock/have a malfunction. If that happens, you correct it and immediately go back to neutralizing the threat.
Anticipating a difference in recoil and paying attention to how the gun is recoiling in your hands can't do anything but diminish your focus on your front sight and your target. Both of those will probably have a bigger effect on your survival that knowing if you are going to need to change a magazine with 2 more trigger pulls.
I can't see what knowing I have 2 more rounds is going to gain me.
Edumacate me.
Of course you'd want to know when you have one round left in the magazine. You can either choose to use it or change mags. It prevents the surprise factor. I'd rather know that it's almost time for a reload than just unload until I'm empty and then be caught in a situation where you don't have the time to reload.
It's also quicker to slam a mag home and keep firing than pop in a mag, hit the slide release button, and continue from there. It's a simple concept really.
Here's my prediction: you'll notice a difference in recoil and think it's a good idea so you run with it. That's fine but realize that you only notice it because you're looking for it. Doubtful you will notice it when the adrenaline is pumping.
Heck, I don't even notice the recoil of 3.5", 2.125 oz, 12ga loads when I'm out turkey hunting.
...and they're not shooting back at me either.
You're probably right... That's why I need to check it out for myself! I think the key is to control adrenaline. Though I've never had to return fire on an assailant, I have been shot at, and honestly my adrenaline seemed to stay pretty level. We'll see...
Crow Hunter
03-12-15, 14:13
Of course you'd want to know when you have one round left in the magazine. You can either choose to use it or change mags. It prevents the surprise factor. I'd rather know that it's almost time for a reload than just unload until I'm empty and then be caught in a situation where you don't have the time to reload.
It's also quicker to slam a mag home and keep firing than pop in a mag, hit the slide release button, and continue from there. It's a simple concept really.
I guess I am still not seeing it. If I have the time to switch out magazines, I'll switch out magazines regardless of how many rounds are left in the magazine in the gun. Whether that is 1 or 10. There will always be more in the new magazine.
If I don't have time to switch out the magazine, I'll just keep shooting until I hit slidelock (and have to) or do have time to switch out the magazine.
I would assume that if I am currently shooting my weapon in a self defense scenario, that would be a situation where I don't have the time to reload as long as I still have rounds in the gun and someone shooting back at me.;)
However, I don't have any combat experience.
I normally punch holes in paper but a recently I ve been going to a range near me for their interactive target night. Just bowling pins and those plastic bottle targets. Two people go up against each other, two mags, five rounds each mag. First person to knock down all pins wins. I have gotten accustomed to counting my shots and under what little stress there is shooting bowling pins I really don't feel recoil. What I do feel is the difference when my slide locks back on my last shot. I couldn't imagine under a REAL stressful situation where I would be defending my life or someone else's where I would be depleting my magazine and the last two potentially life saving rounds recoil more and possibly throw my shot off.
OP I get the concept of what you are saying, but I think there may be a few ideas people are putting out here that you are missing.
There are basically two times to reload, when you absolutely need to (slidelock) or when you want to (tactical reload). The first is an emergency, you just went dry and you still need rounds on target. The second is not as emergent, you have addressed all visible threats and are exchanging a partially depleted mag for a fresh one, based on the idea additional threats may present themselves. You are taking advantage of a lull.
If you are going to slidelock, the slide locking open is the stimulus that triggers the mag change, not the louder report of +P ammo that you may or may not notice. If you are taking advantage of a lull to top off, it is not as material if you have two or five left in the mag, you are putting a fresh mag in and stowing the old if possible.
I am guessing the tracer idea makes more sense for long guns where (depending on experience) it can be more difficult to know when you go empty. Just a guess though.
Firefly, the crosshair in the circle is a NATO head stamp and does not designate specific ammo type within the NATO universe.
About +P ammo and use in a non +P rated handgun. My opinion is that function firing and duty carry of same in a non +P rated handgun will not affect its service life--especially in .45 ACP which is a low pressure round to start with.
Copy that. I was strongly advised that any Hirtenberger smg ammo would destroy a handgun. I was told to look out for anything with a crosshair or * HP *. At that time ball Hirtenberger was floating around for the MP5s that had been around for a while. Same as UZI black tip. I've seen a Glock handle UZI black tip but was told and believe it that it would not survive Hirtenberger. Having shot it from an MP5, yeah I'll take the Pepsi challenge. Rightly or wrongly it stood out and made me look twice.
Same with that funky Indian 308 years ago. But that is another story
PKendall317
03-15-15, 22:15
So, I keep my .45s stoked with 230gr HSTs. I had recently come into a trade that I couldn't pass up - 250 rounds of 230gr .45ACP +P HST for $100 (my buddy bought them then realized that his gun wasn't +P rated). I don't like to feed my guns +P so I had an idea. When I was a kid I would load a tracer round as the last two rounds in my mag so that I could get a visual indicator of when I was about to run out. Well - that didn't work too well. But the concept was solid. So I've been loading the the last two rounds in my high-cap .45 mags with the HST +P so that I can get tactile feedback on when I'm due for a reload.
I practice a lot with HSTs so the +P should be very distinct when fired. Anyone else do anything similar? It makes a lot of sense to me.
While I'm not saying this is a bad idea it just doesn't seem like it's thought out very well. Whenever I'm shooting, either at my local indoor range or in a more dynamic shooting environment I have never found the need to use +P ammo to tell me when to reload because the gun going to slide-lock gives a distinct recoil impulse and when I'm shooting in a more stressful environment the recoil is among the least things that I'm thinking about.
Now keep in mind that I'm using 9mm, not .45ACP, but I couldn't tell the difference between a 124gr FMJ and a 124gr +P Gold Dot shooting both types of ammo at an indoor range. I honestly didn't think the +P recoiled very much more, but again, I'm using 9mm and not .45ACP.
PKendall317
03-15-15, 22:20
OP I get the concept of what you are saying, but I think there may be a few ideas people are putting out here that you are missing.
There are basically two times to reload, when you absolutely need to (slidelock) or when you want to (tactical reload). The first is an emergency, you just went dry and you still need rounds on target. The second is not as emergent, you have addressed all visible threats and are exchanging a partially depleted mag for a fresh one, based on the idea additional threats may present themselves. You are taking advantage of a lull.
If you are going to slidelock, the slide locking open is the stimulus that triggers the mag change, not the louder report of +P ammo that you may or may not notice. If you are taking advantage of a lull to top off, it is not as material if you have two or five left in the mag, you are putting a fresh mag in and stowing the old if possible.
+1 to this!
Well, I figured my idea wouldn't be met with much enthusiasm. I've always been an opponent of mixing ammo in mags (besides when I was a kid and did the tracer thing). I usually practice with my carry load (yes, it gets expensive). Now, I'm not defending my idea, because it's just that - an idea - I've heard of other people doing the tracer thing but never the +p thing. I've fired thousands of rounds of 230gr HST and know exactly what to expect when I pull the trigger. A +P HST COULD (I say could because I've never popped one off) produce enough difference in felt recoil that I BELIEVE that it COULD be a useful trick. Same as those saying that I wouldn't notice the extra kick when my adrenaline is pumping - when you're in engaged in a fight or flight situation, counting rounds is also something far from your mind. Sometimes during rapid fire drills I lose track of how many I've let loose. I agree with most of you that it's probably a bad idea - but, if you trained exclusively with the technique, there's no doubt in my mind that it could be useful. Not everyone gets an adrenaline surge and tunnel vision when engaging in combat, regardless of the weapon being used.
If you're cool as a cucumber and are able to "fight past the haze" of your fight or flight response... I'm just saying... No two people are the same. I've been in a lot of fist fights and even had a few knives pulled on me. I've been attacked by multiple aggressors. I've trained in martial arts my whole life. When I was young, I would get tunnel vision and go into berserk mode (hulk smash). After enough fights and training I learned to overcome that reaction and remain calm - allowing me to control the fight and thus win. I can't claim to have been in a gun fight, but I imagine it's exactly the same.
Anyway, not trying to argue - just throwing out an idea that I still think may have some viability. No two people are the same and to instantly presume that someone is going to lose it in a gun fight and not be able to tell the difference between firing 12 rounds of normal pressure loads immediately followed by a +P round is kind of... close minded, honestly. Coming up with new ideas, no matter how impractical they may seem can lead to new thoughts and advancements in training. I'm not saying it's the greatest idea ever, but I'm not willing to instantly discount it as an effective technique. No one should until they've tried it and can actually report back as to whether or not it helped them. Until then it's all conjecture. I don't claim to be right... It's just conjecture.
You can continue to rag on me for thinking of a use for my +P HSTs, but I wasn't trying to say that it's the "end all be all" method of loading your mags. Without testing it is all just conjecture.
So to sum it up, I get where you're all coming from, and I don't disagree with any of you really. I just don't think that it should be instantly discounted either.
Feel free to continue telling me what a bad idea it is, I'm still going to the range this weekend with a pile of mags loaded in this fashion to see for myself if I think it's tactically viable. I've never fired a +P HST so I don't know the difference in felt recoil between one and a regular HST so this could all be a moot point.
Forums are for sharing ideas... even silly ones... New ideas lead to different ways of thinking which lead to advancements in training and techniques. Less than 200 years ago, modern warfare consisted of people meeting each other head on, firing muskets into lines of soldiers and then ducking to reload.
OK, before I write a novel, I should just cut it off there. I concur that it's probably a bad idea, I just wanted to throw it out there... In the future we'll all have blinking LED low-ammo indicators on our weapons anyway.
Honestly, I don't think it will make a difference either way. Here's why.
Let's say that you can feel the difference enough to recognize when you're about to run empty. You go ahead and reload.
Or you can't feel the difference in a fight, run the gun dry, and have to reload anyway.
Either way, you're going to have to reload, and worst comes to worst and you don't feel it, not only will you have to reload in any case, but your last two shots were +P defensive rounds, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just don't count on being able to feel that difference is all people are saying.
I guess I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think you're going to feel that in an actual fight. Even if you do feel it, you probably won't be thinking about reloading when you do feel it. You'll be thinking about trying to shoot who you're shooting at when you feel it, and then when you do have to reload you'll be very briefly thinking about reloading, then back to shooting. Just my .02
HansTheHobbit
04-03-15, 17:11
It may work, but I don't think I would notice the difference if my adrenaline was pumping. I have a really bad lack of perception for recoil, though. I can't really tell the difference between pistol calibers by recoil. You would probably have a better chance of success by training to keep track of your round count. If you always count your rounds every time you shoot, then you would probably do it automatically under stress.
I think a blank round would be better. You'd KNOW that you needed a fresh magazine. Really know.
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