View Full Version : Interesting thread
Just got done reading this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=729059&page=1
Most of the stuff posted in it is either wrong or is just to stupid to even respond too, but there is one part that needs to be talked about. That part is the chart the Rob_S put together.
If we are going to be brutally honest, for many years, I found Rob_S to be one of the most annoying people on the net. Over the last two years though, he has gotten some high level training and has really become a valued posting member. I also no longer find him annoying. ;) What I found disturbing is that one of the site staff members on TOS (Aimless AKA Clueless) has taken to trying to discredit the chart that Rob has spent a lot of time on for no other reason than he was once banned from TOS.
What Aimless and many others fail to realize is that Rob's info for the chart comes from many different places. I have personally given him info as have other M4C staff members. Rob has also gotten a lot of his information DIRECTLY from the manufactureres themselves. Is the chart 100% accurate all the time? No, it cannot be as manufacturers are constantly changing things. It is however VERY close to what is being seen by the consumer.
A lot of people seem to misunderstand the reason for the chart or why some things are listed and other things are not. The chart follows the US Govt TDP (technical data package) for how an M16/M4 is to be built. It is a set standard (not something Rob_S just came up with). The TDP should be viewed as the minimum standard for how a fighting weapon is to be built. If the AR you own follows this standard, then great! If the AR you own does not meet this standard, then that is fine as well (as it is your weapon and your call).
The next thing that people seem to get incorrect about the chart (and M4C) is that if you do not own an LMT, Noveske or Colt that you cannot be on this forum or that you are not welcome. This is 100% untrue. The reason why Noveske, LMT and Colt are so popular on this site is because they follow the TDP so well. People that are generally looking for a personal defense or duty weapon tend to want a weapon that follows some standard (not the standard that saves the rifle manufacturer the most amount of money).
[RANT ON]
This thread was placed in this forum because it was meant to deal specifically with the comments about the chart and Rob_S. There were some other poor things said about us in that thread that I would like to quickly address. When G&R Tactical was on TOS, we had the MOST POSITIVE FEEDBACK OF ANY DEALER ON THAT BOARD! ANY!!! We also have over 9 pages of positive feedback on this forum. In this day and age of fickle internet shoppers, do you think that you are going to get that many positive reviews by screwing customers? The answer is simply no, you are not. Our feedback record speaks for itself. We do not and never have screwed a customer.
We count many of the big names in this industry as personal Friends (John Noveske, Eric K and Kino D of VLTOR, Jeff C of Tango Down, Tony, Doug, Drake of Magpul, Steve Troy, Jay and Marty of Daniel Defense, Ashley B. of BFG, Freddie B. of Aimpoint and last but not least Larry Vickers, DP and Ken Hackathorn to name a few). These guys do NOT give you their friendship, you have to earn it! This should also be taken as a "clue" of our good standing in this industry. [/RANT OFF]
C4
Jay Cunningham
07-08-08, 14:11
The one comment about you being "a turd in a people suit" was kind of funny...
:p
Kill Grant!!11!1!11
RE: The Chart
I actually provided the Chart to my local dealer. He was very upfront and honest about his views. His clientele are mostly casual shooters and are looking for a reasonably priced AR that will go bang when they pull the trigger. The weapon goes from the range to the house and back again. He also indicated that he had few customers as discerning as I (he knew how to get on my good side). That tends to be the case with TOS. That is *not* a discerning group over there. They represent the average plinker. My expectations are not high for the information over there and I am rarely surprised by that which is given. If I want the best advice, I come here, 'cause ya'll will be brutally honest with me.
RE: G&R Tactical
I found the original G&R forum because of our shared discipleship, not because of firearms, so that relationship will always remain. Your customer service in the firearms dealership realm has been impeccable and I will continue to do business with G&R and recommend you to others because of that quality service.
Karl
The one comment about you being "a turd in a people suit" was kind of funny...
:p
Kill Grant!!11!1!11
The kill Grant threads just never get old do they. ;)
C4
I never knew I was emailing and ordering from a turd...
I never knew I was emailing and ordering from a turd...
That makes two of us! I guess I have been called worse by better though. :)
C4
If we are going to be brutally honest, for many years, I found Rob_S to be one of the most annoying people on the net. Over the last two years though, he has gotten some high level training and has really become a valued posting member. I also no longer find him annoying. ;)
Rob_S annoys me now more than ever. :D
We respectfully disagree on almost everything, and he drives an Escalade. If the Escalade doesn't destroy his credibility, I don't know what will! :p
Rob_S annoys me now more than ever. :D
We respectfully disagree on almost everything, and he drives an Escalade. If the Escalade doesn't destroy his credibility, I don't know what will! :p
LOL, ya know what is really funny is that I put you right up there with Rob on my most annoying list. When you joined the forum we had a bet that you wouldn't last 1 day on here!
Now I look forward to reading your comments (as they are generally funny and helpful). I cannot say the same when you were on TOS.
We (mods/Staff/Owners) have a theory going about this. We believe that people will behave (or misbehave) to the most common denominator. If you are surrounded by village idiots, you will sink to that level. If you are surrounded by common sense oriented folks, your whole attitude will change.
C4
I guess I'm too new to know all the drama/dealings between here and TOS. I lurked over there for months but just could not register. Every time I felt like that there were some intelligent people mixed in over there, I would hit the refresh and find they were grossly outnumbered. I won't go as far to throw the baby out with the bathwater but I steer clear as a general rule. I have not had a question that the members here have not been able to answer. Big thanks go to Grant, stickman, and the other members that have helped me so far. HUGE thanks goes out to R.D. who kindly and patiently waited for me to catch up on the learning curve by answering my many emails and PMs.
Rob- Don't know anything about you other than you love charts (so do I) and you live in Fla (so do I). Thanks for the hard work. I know it was a pain in the ass.
If you are surrounded by village idiots, you will sink to that level. If you are surrounded by common sense oriented folks, your whole attitude will change.
100 percent in agreement!!
It amazed even me! People ask me why I don't inquire about getting my account unlocked over at TOS. Shit! You couldn't PAY me to go back there now.
We (mods/Staff/Owners) have a theory going about this. We believe that people will behave (or misbehave) to the most common denominator. If you are surrounded by village idiots, you will sink to that level. If you are surrounded by common sense oriented folks, your whole attitude will change.
C4
I completely buy into that. On my home state CCW forum there are many member lemmings. They buy into this one instructor's writings like gospel. This instructor is so far on the bottom of the go to list that it isn't funny. But hey, it's him and his buddies that set the tone of the site. The sad thing is that these guys don't seem to seek out better training because they will feel the wrath on the forum.
People do indeed tend to act like one another once the tone is set. The common denominator makes or breaks a group. I'm guilty of it too... I find myself posting a little bit more humor here than I would at 10-8. After having to send in my creds to gain access I act differently for whatever reason.
decodeddiesel
07-08-08, 15:00
The reason for the chart bashing is clear, and I have seen this kind of crap many times on the internet, not just in gun forums. You've got to pay to play, whether it's engine management for your Subaru, or which video card you have in your computer, what lens you have on your SLR, or which AR-15 you bought. Basically people don't want to admit they bought a turd when they got their turd and look to the internet for vindication that even though they saved some bucks, their turd is just as good as the industry standard. This makes them apprehensive to anything which proves contradictory to their attempts for vindication. Like I see one fool insisting someone show him why an LMT is worth $200 more than his Stag :rolleyes: Then as soon as someone does show him that he does indeed have a turd (they even pointed it out to him nicely) he either ignores it or insists the turd qualifying qualities (or lack there of) are inconsequential. This is the reason why my posting on TOS is very limited and I am very weary of every "fact" I see posted there.
Sorry, I guess that was a rant.
100 percent in agreement!!
It amazed even me! People ask me why I don't inquire about getting my account unlocked over at TOS. Shit! You couldn't PAY me to go back there now.
I am glad that you see the difference as we have. Good to have you on here.
C4
Very, very true, decodeddiesel!
The reason for the chart bashing is clear, and I have seen this kind of crap many times on the internet, not just in gun forums. You've got to pay to play, whether it's engine management for your Subaru, or which video card you have in your computer, what lens you have on your SLR, or which AR-15 you bought. Basically people don't want to admit they bought a turd when they got their turd and look to the internet for vindication that even though they saved some bucks, their turd is just as good as the industry standard. This makes them apprehensive to anything which proves contradictory to their attempts for vindication. Like I see one fool insisting someone show him why an LMT is worth $200 more than his Stag :rolleyes: Then as soon as someone does show him that he does indeed have a turd (they even pointed it out to him nicely) he either ignores it or insists the turd qualifying qualities (or lack there of) are inconsequential. This is the reason why my posting on TOS is very limited and I am very weary of every "fact" I see posted there.
Sorry, I guess that was a rant.
I agree and did read that about the LMT is not worth the extra money over the Stag.
People also point to the fact that their Oly runs perfectly and their friends, brothers Colt "jams" all the time. People always want to look at the statistical sampling of ONE weapon. Does Colt, LMT, etc put out lemons? Sure do! As a whole though, which company is more likely to put out a POS? The company the follows the TDP and or the company that does not?
C4
Its TOS nothing new with over "there". :)
I have always been pleased with Grant's services.
I'm glad Aimless re-posted the chart. He's the one that's taken it down every other time it's been posted there.
The link to the discussion here is on the chart for the sole purpose of people being able to know where to come to have it corrected. I got tired of having to chase all around the internet every time someone found something wrong with it.
I don't know what's so lacking in his life that he can't let go of the fact that THEY banned ME several years ago. IIRC the public reason for the banning was because I had two accounts going at once or something, even though neither had ever posted at the same time. When I got more interested in the technical and training side of shooting the norman74 screen name just had too much baggage for me to want to take it into the "technical forums" (their term) so I retired it publicly and started a new one. No matter how many times this gets explained, it never seems to sink in.
Oh well.
Failure2Stop
07-08-08, 15:28
TOS is one of those things you have to grow out of. If you linger there for too long, you're screwed. If you've never have to wade through 20 pages of sychophants and village idiots for a shred of a real answer or verifiable fact, you will be unable to appreciate sites like this.
The chart is one of those double-edged swords that takes a knowledgable individual to really apply past the basic, initial purpose behind the TDP. Not at all meant to belittle the work or usefulness of the hallowed chart, but as has been covered before, it is a starting point for the serious user.
In the end, thanks to Rob_S for the chart and frequent poingniant comments, and the Staff/Admin/Mods for the quality of the site. And, of course, a thanks to the other members that act like professionals and adults.
Cheers.
ETA- Just made it to page 3, now I have a f**king headache. Thanks loads Grant.
I read through that thread not knowing what to expect. I am very surprised to see some people so vehemently try to undermine what I would deem to be scientifically gathered and reported data. Those aren't Rob's opinions. The chart just is what it is. Wow...
Stephen
I'm glad Aimless re-posted the chart. He's the one that's taken it down every other time it's been posted there.
The link to the discussion here is on the chart for the sole purpose of people being able to know where to come to have it corrected. I got tired of having to chase all around the internet every time someone found something wrong with it.
I don't know what's so lacking in his life that he can't let go of the fact that THEY banned ME several years ago. IIRC the public reason for the banning was because I had two accounts going at once or something, even though neither had ever posted at the same time. When I got more interested in the technical and training side of shooting the norman74 screen name just had too much baggage for me to want to take it into the "technical forums" (their term) so I retired it publicly and started a new one. No matter how many times this gets explained, it never seems to sink in.
Oh well.
I don't know what Aimless's issue is either. I have shot with him in a class and everyone was polite and friendly. I always find it funny that when people are standing in front of you, they would NEVER say to your face what they will say from the safety of their keyboard. :rolleyes:
C4
I read through that thread not knowing what to expect. I am very surprised to see some people so vehemently try to undermine what I would deem to be scientifically gathered and reported data. Those aren't Rob's opinions. The chart just is what it is. Wow...
Stephen
I am always amazed by it as well. I think what it really comes down to is that Males do not want their weapon of choice to be looked down on. So in order to make their purchase decision look better, they belittle the TDP. Makes zero sense to me, but in their little world they believe that the chart is Rob's idea of how a weapon is supposed to be built.
C4
Grant,
I have been to BARF-15 a few times after someone recommended it. It didn't take long in reading the comments of a good number of assclowns and their buffoonery to make me avoid it like the plague. I have also read alot of yours and rob_s comments and you guys always seem to have good poop and insightful comments to add.
Basically those guys are a bunch of whiners and bashers and I wouldn't get spun up over it. As for their weapons. Regardless of what it us, no one wants to hear that they were sold a shit burrito and that they took a huge bite of it!
TOS is one of those things you have to grow out of. If you linger there for too long, you're screwed.
Ain’t that the truth. I’ve got a buddy who hangs on there, and while he’s a sharp guy and seems to usually pick out the info he needs, but every now and then he’ll spout off something that makes me cringe. Why he doesn’t come over here, I don’t know. I rarely head over there anymore because I can’t keep up with it. The board is too big to be useful for anything but as a marketplace (the EE). The search function is so limited it’s not worth trying to datamine the useless posts to find what you need. Just look at that thread – there are about 10 different conversations going on at once all about different stuff. It’s like trying to read the label on a t-shirt on a monkey ****ing a football in a running clothes dryer that’s tumbling down a hill in the rain – and that, unfortunately, is Arfcom in a nutshell these days.
And people get way too bent about that chart – both sides. It’s information, so users can make informed decisions. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don’t need those features, fine, you can use it to pick the gun that leaves out the most features and saves you the most money. Or use it to pick the most cost-effective mid-grade rifle. Read it however you want to read it, but unfortunately many want to only read it as a personal attack on their choice of weapons. Lame.
TheActivePatriot
07-08-08, 16:15
AR15.com is like a treasure chest buried under a pile of fecal matter. Sure, there's something good in there, but do you really want to dig through all that shit to find it?
Remember911
07-08-08, 16:18
I think the chart has a lot of good info on it. I have used it my self at diff times. I worked for one of the comps. named on it for 5 years. As for as TOS I have no love for thier kid like bull and don't go there any more.:rolleyes:
decodeddiesel
07-08-08, 16:21
Just pulled this gem out of that thread:
"I can read a manual for 15 min and learn how my weapon functions. I don't need to pay $500 and take a class to learn how to clear a jam or know how a weapon operates."
I felt I had to quote it for posterity.
Remember911
07-08-08, 16:22
AR15.com is like a treasure chest buried under a pile of fecal matter. Sure, there's something good in there, but do you really want to dig through all that shit to find it? Could not have said it better.
My head hurts from reading that. I gave up.
Now I remember why I rarely read there anymore. I don't think I've posted there in at least a year or more.
If that's all they have to complain about in life, they are doing better than me most days.
-RD62
P.S. Oh yeah, all my dealings with Grant and G&R have been GTG. It's my go to place for stuff, and I will continue to purchase from G&R.
We started this forum so that like minded people like you all could discuss and share experiences and opinions in a polite, respectful and professional manor.
You guys make this forum successful and we (staff and mods) just sweep up when necessary. I don't care what they do over there but I do want this forum to take the high road when it comes to internet drama. C4iGrant gave his rebuttal and while I might agree with you guys on many points we simply don't need to waste our time talking about it any more.
Thanks - M4arc
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