View Full Version : Smith & Wesson M&P series, thus far...
I remember when the M&P first hit the market some years ago. A lot of folks were calling it a "Glock killer" and predicting that it would soon claim the lion's share of the polymer 9mm/.40 market.
Fast forward to today and Glock still seems as popular as ever, their 9mm hiccups notwithstanding. And since then, some outstanding guns have hit the market such as the Walther PPQ and HK VP9.
Don't know about S&W's market share, but is the M&P about where it was expected to be at this point in time?
I remember when the M&P first hit the market some years ago. A lot of folks were calling it a "Glock killer" and predicting that it would soon claim the lion's share of the polymer 9mm/.40 market.
Fast forward to today and Glock still seems as popular as ever, their 9mm hiccups notwithstanding. And since then, some outstanding guns have hit the market such as the Walther PPQ and HK VP9.
Don't know about S&W's market share, but is the M&P about where it was expected to be at this point in time?
I don't know, and I doubt you could find out as S&W isn't talking. That said, I'm thinking S&W is getting some serious competition from a lot of other manufacturers I mean look at a VP9, other than sights, it doesn't need anything out of the box. NO apex anything. IMO, S&W took too long to address a lot of issues, and this eventually cost them.
I happen to agree with ralph on S&W taking too long to address a lot of issues. There are a lot of other striker fire firearms out there. Besides the VP9, there is the FNS, the Sig 320 and Beretta is coming out with striker fire. One thing I have notice is that Smith is takes a while to address the issues with there guns. It seems a lot of people wanted a Glock 19 size M&P. What does Smith do, they came out with a FDE and Carbin Fiber color frame. Really!? FN had an issue with their striker fire gun. FN addressed the issue right away and seems to be working fine now.
There are a lot of Glock fans out there. Glock is a good good firearm for the price. They have been around for a long time. Unless Smith re-vamps the internals of the M&P, and give what people want, the M&P will be second or third or fourth to the Glock. Just my two cents. Which isn't much :)
What hurt S&W was the slow to respond/react to shortcomings of the pistol, hoping buyers would just learn to accept it or when it gets sent to the S&W shop for repair, fix or repair the problem them. I guess if I owned a shop putting a firearm that was expected to be trustworthy and 100% reliable, I would be slow broke. My philosophy would be, don't let it out the door until it's right. I know it can be done as manufactures have managed to do it.
After carrying Sig 226's for 26+/- years I bought my own M&P9 FS and 9L, Shield and a 9C. Not as warm to the 9c so it will move on out and a Sig 329 Compact, 15 rnd mag and 3.9" barrel, will take the 9c spot. I have a Sig 239 9mm, it's a great gun almost 20 years old, but it is a heavier Shield size wise and capacity.
I always thought the M&P line failed to really give shooters a reason to switch from Glock...the P320 brings a groundbreaking level of modularity to the table, and the VP9 offers excellent ergonomics with an outstanding out of the box trigger pull. Sure the M&P was the first popular plastic gun to offer different backstraps, but there were too many other issues to overcome. Also the sizing of the Compact is a little smaller than I think most people are looking for.
The only M&P I have is the shield. Does fine for its purpose. Only thing I've done to it is change the sights and add some Foxx grips (like rubberized talon grips).
That said, I see a lot of M&P fanboys touting "all i did was add an apex kit....".
Yeah, how much is that? Why would people brag about having to add additional hardware and cost to a brand new firearm? I just don't get it. But that's me.
I know many will debate this, but I have listened to a lawyer who has defended several defensive shootings, and any good prosecutor will attempt to go after any types of functional modifications you've made to your trigger, sear, etc. Doesn't sound like that's nailed anyone YET, but all it takes is one skewed jury to buy-in to that translating to the defendant "wanting to go out and kill someone" to turn the tide. And with the ever-growing libtard media pushing these types of agendas, it should at least be considered.
Ok, rant done. ;)
I think Smith & Wesson should stick to wheelguns. After the Sigma, I don't trust any S&W semi pistol. The only S&W semi I would trust would be a 5906. The problem is the "me too" attitude that many manufacturers have. There was already a plethora of polymer framed hi-cap striker-fired semis on the market that had a proven track record. I think the M&P was doomed for failure from the beginning. As others have pointed out, the series didn't really bring anything new to the table - so what was the point? Money... I think they've been trying to reclaim their LE market share after losing all of their Model 10 contracts. LOL. BTW, the Model 10 was called the "Military & Police" as well - and that was 116 years ago.
I know many will debate this, but I have listened to a lawyer who has defended several defensive shootings, and any good prosecutor will attempt to go after any types of functional modifications you've made to your trigger, sear, etc. Doesn't sound like that's nailed anyone YET, but all it takes is one skewed jury to buy-in to that translating to the defendant "wanting to go out and kill someone" to turn the tide. And with the ever-growing libtard media pushing these types of agendas, it should at least be considered.
No, just no. A good prosecutor will argue the facts and the law... and a modified gun is irrelevant in an intentional shooting. Hell, a good prosecutor most likely won't even prosecute you. Now if it was a negligent shooting, then yes, a modified gun to have a lighter trigger pull or fewer safeties may be to your detriment. But for an intentional defensive shooting? It doesn't matter if your gun had a 1 lb or a 10 lb trigger, the shoot was good regardless of trigger weight and any "good" prosecutor won't waste literally everyone's time by making such a frivolous argument.
So...a lawyer who has seen it happen in court on multiple occasions is wrong? It didn't happen?
And why is it that in these cases you read about and see in the news, the prosecution often times tries to question the credibility or intent of a defendant involved in a shooting? That's what they are doing with the dive into the modifications on a pistol.
Like I said, I don't know where it's nailed anyone yet, but it does and has been a tactic.
So...a lawyer who has seen it happen in court on multiple occasions is wrong? It didn't happen?
And why is it that in these cases you read about and see in the news, the prosecution often times tries to question the credibility or intent of a defendant involved in a shooting? That's what they are doing with the dive into the modifications on a pistol.
Like I said, I don't know where it's nailed anyone yet, but it does and has been a tactic.
The prosecutor/da wasn't "good" in those cases. In most jurisdictions, self defense is a defense to murder. And self defense, in most jurisdictions, is assumed as soon as someone unlawfully enters your home. At that point, the weapon you used is essentially irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you used a punisher evil black rifle or a pink deringer. At that point the case revolves entirely around if the person was there lawfully or not. A dead body in a house who is not a family member nor a resident of that house is an open and shut case. The protector likely won't waste time and budget to prosecute you at all.
The only time he would is when there is real doubt on if it was self defense, which would be outside of the home in 99% of cases. And if there was, your trigger pull weight again won't matter. It still comes down to the question of self defense.
Now if it's a civil case... It might matter. Maybe. Depending on jurisdiction. But you were referring to criminal charges, so I haven't mentioned that.
CanineCombatives
03-15-15, 11:49
S&W should stick to wheelguns
Pretty much sums up every MP thread ever done.
AztecViking
03-15-15, 12:18
I think if you were to get an honest answer from the people at S&W they would tell you that are satisfied with its success but always would like to have more of the market share. I only say that based off what I perceive as its current popularity with shooters.
Personally I think the gun is phenomenal. There isn't a pistol I own that I shoot better. I agree that its taken S&W way too long to listen to its customers but they ultimately have in my opinion.
In my opinion, the gun in its current state of manufacture is the best striker fired polymer framed pistol for the money. Grant made a thread on the current upgrades here... https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?139767-Current-production-S-amp-W-M-amp-P-s-(Update)&highlight=
These upgrades take care of any issue I personally had with previous models, your mileage may vary though.
I enjoy the M&P series, and so far have been lucky not to have any issues with any of them.
However everyone has an opinion, and I am not different. I think S&W missed the boat by not offering a model that was a more direct competitor to the Glock 19. I think a lot of people find the M&P Compact just a little too small. I personally like my pistols to have a grip long enough to not require a "finger" magazine to fill it out.
I think a M&P Carry model, with a 3.8-4 inch barrel and a 14-15 rd magazine would be the cat's meow for size. With a good trigger, fix the barrel/accuracy issues, and the option of a positive manual safety, it would sell like hotcakes.
I emailed S&W once regarding this notion listed above, explained at length, and was directed to their M&P Compact. Whooosh! Right over the head of whomever read my email.
It is funny as all other manufacturers seem to understand that the Glock 19 is the model they need to be compared to.
Does anyone know if S&W has any intentions of releasing a Glock 19 comparable model?
The M&P 9C is their competitor to the G19.
The M&P 9C is their competitor to the G19.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/MP40cG27.jpg
Looks closer to a G26 to me
The M&P 9C is their competitor to the G19.
Except for the fact it does not directly compare with the G19. I've owned both. It is closer to the subcompact Glocks than the G19.
Seriously, everyone under the sun seems to know that a large part of the G19s popularity is in it's near perfect size. Big enough for duty, small enough to be easily CC. Except S&W.
I love my little shield, other than a few minutes on the worksharp I haven't done jack to the trigger. Did I have to dick with it? No...
I loved my 9c but like all other doublestacks they just don't fit into my style of conceal carry so it went away.
I have two friends with pro's in 9's, I apexed the one CORE and have lots of trigger time behind the other regular pro, maybe I'm not overly worried about triggers. All four of these pistols I've seen or put thousands of rounds down without issue. (except for the occasional OL reload) If I was going to buy one of these thick as a brick monsters for some reason I'd have to consider a M&P. For my HD and fun pistols I much prefer them to have a hammer like my 220 and 09. I do like the trigger on the VP9 and ppq but then again there's no practical application for me.
Where the M&P line has failed is not having a 5" 10mm in the lineup, that's forcing me to shell out a bunch of bucks for a G40 before next hunting season.
I think everyone knew S&W would have a tough time breaking ingrained Glock customers from their inertia... and I honestly would think that they knew this when the M&P product line was pushed out there. Since then, I am pretty sure S&W scored their fair share of agency contracts... enough to make the product line worth their while, nevermind the expansions to the product offerings over the years with the "Pro-series" additions that cater to the gun-game market. When I was shopping as a new buyer for an affordable training pistol circa 2010, it was a much easier decision to end up with the M&P than if I had already amassed a collection of Gen3 Glocks during the prior decade or two. For me the design ergos and sizing worked out well, and I have the full gamut now of FS, C, Shield, and PC CORE.
Since it's inception, M&P's have proven itself well enough that I see them out there a reasonable amount in training classes and on the hips of working professionals from time to time -- alongside the usual stable of Glocks, Sigs, and XDs. No matter what happens, it will be a long time for major agencies to move away from their legacy issue Glock and Sig pistols, imho. The infrastructure investment and politics are just too huge. HK simply priced themselves out of most of the market for typical consumers wanting a "tactical" type pistol for training and more than just square-range shooting. Here in CA, sadly, the regular M&P line has fallen off our "Roster of Safe Handguns" so that cramps their market share by quite a bit given that the Gen3 Glocks are still available alongside the stable of Springfield XD pistols. The VP9 and PPQ will never gain traction here since it was never on the roster and the SSE path to acquire them closed shortly after they were released into our market. The newer Sig striker-fire offerings suffer this same fate here in CA.
I doubt anyone in their right mind can claim S&W "failed" with their M&P generation of products.
Except for the fact it does not directly compare with the G19. I've owned both. It is closer to the subcompact Glocks than the G19.
Seriously, everyone under the sun seems to know that a large part of the G19s popularity is in it's near perfect size. Big enough for duty, small enough to be easily CC. Except S&W.
Interesting. I was going by some of their early Ad campaign stuff and Internet talk. I've not cared to handle a 9c personally. Thanks for pointing that out.
Interesting. I was going by some of their early Ad campaign stuff and Internet talk. I've not cared to handle a 9c personally. Thanks for pointing that out.
If you look at the pure size comparisons, you get a hopscotch progression with the Glock/M&P, imho (for 9mm):
G26
M&P9c
G19
M&P FS
G17
M&P L
G34
I should also have mentioned that S&W has done tons of design revisions since inception, as well, which can either be looked at as a positive improvement/investment in improving the product, or band-aid fixes for problems that should never have been in the design... depends who you are asking. ;)
My 40 has proven to be very accurate.
The trigger on my 2012 model has not hindered my shooting to any appreciable extent.
It's reliable
There are many aftermarket parts.
If your getting a 40, mp is the way to go imo.
9mm I'd go glock. Both platforms have cheap mags and a ton of support.
I don't know what was expected to be the market share, but one of the reasons I got an m&p40 was because it was the only widely available, good, poly striker out at the time.
Maiden3.16
03-15-15, 18:19
Pretty much sums up every MP thread ever done.
Not sure I agree. I have to go with scootle and say it would be hard to argue that the M&P series has been a failure. The Shield alone has been a huge, huge success. I'm a glock fan but I will admit the M&P line has better ergonomics and is right up there in reliability. I get the argument many feel the need to drop $150 on a the APEX trigger, but they come with steel sights. With Glock's plastic sightholders you have to drop $100 on new sights. Pretty much evens out IMO.
I think that only Glock could be a "Glock killer". Meaning that they would have to hurt themselves somehow. For my the 9mm guns were always "in between". The full size was to big and the compacts were to small. I went from a 19/26 carry combo to a full size/ compact M&P carry combo and thought they both sucked. Now I have only 45 M&P's and feel that the compact 45 is the best size pistol they have. It is a 19 size and I have heard numerous people asking for that gun in 9mm. If they were to do that, and directly compete with the 19, they would most likely take more market share.
If you look at the pure size comparisons, you get a hopscotch progression with the Glock/M&P, imho (for 9mm):
G26
M&P9c
G19
M&P FS
G17
M&P L
G34
I should also have mentioned that S&W has done tons of design revisions since inception, as well, which can either be looked at as a positive improvement/investment in improving the product, or band-aid fixes for problems that should never have been in the design... depends who you are asking. ;)
That's funny, I was JUST talking to my cousin about that on Wednesday! But we started with the Shield.
We thought it was so S&W could provide an alternative to Glock instead of direct competition. I mean it must have been intentional!
Now I have only 45 M&P's and feel that the compact 45 is the best size pistol they have. It is a 19 size and I have heard numerous people asking for that gun in 9mm. If they were to do that, and directly compete with the 19, they would most likely take more market share.
I couldn't agree more. I would love to see an 9mm M&P in the same dimensions as the compact 45.
alvincullumyork
03-15-15, 21:35
I think one of the biggest gripes about the M&P is the trigger. It's also my opinion that a lot of people don't like it because it doesn't feel like a glock trigger. I never really warmed up to glocks even though I tried so I snagged a fairly early model FS 9 from Grant and have been happy since. I'd probably like the latest and greatest FS 9 more but mine runs just fine and I'm used to it.
I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.
walkin' trails
03-15-15, 21:45
My full sized 45 and 9 have been rock solid reliabmer, and I really like shooting them better than the Glocks. My 9c has been teublesome, but it seems to work fine after coming back from the shop. Any polymer pistol has a high hill to climb in to dethrone the reputation Glock established many years before, including fewer parts and simpler detail strip than any similar handgun.
I thought they designed it around the 40.
The 9mms straight up sucked for a few years and I'm not a 40 guy so the M&P never appealed to me at all.
Most Glock people compare everything to the 19. That's why so few people move away from Glock.
The only thing close is a P2000, and if you're not into horrible triggers and obnoxiously big slide stop levers flopping everywhere, you won't really like it as much as a 19.
I thought they designed it around the 40.
The 9mms straight up sucked for a few years and I'm not a 40 guy so the M&P never appealed to me at all.
Most Glock people compare everything to the 19. That's why so few people move away from Glock.
Correct... the M&P started with the .40SW and then "downconverted" to a 9mm offering. Meanwhile, IIRC, Glock did the opposite, starting with 9mm (G17 et al.) and then "upconverting" to .40SW (G22 et al.)...
The 9mm M&P's had growing pains... just like the .40SW Glocks had growing pains... just sayin' ;)
Eurodriver
03-16-15, 07:01
The usual S&W M&P Defenders are not in here getting angry that their prized possessions are being outed for what they really are - just not that great.
I wonder if they are regrouping or if they've seen the light?
The usual S&W M&P Defenders are not in here getting angry that their prized possessions are being outed for what they really are - just not that great.
I wonder if they are regrouping or if they've seen the light?
We're just not as sensitive as the nutty Glock fanatics. ;)
Eurodriver
03-16-15, 11:42
Nutty? Did you forget that I sold a G19? I don't have that many anymore.
Even if I did, GLOCKS are Perfection. ;) tisk tisk
We're just not as sensitive as the nutty Glock fanatics. ;)
That said, I see a lot of M&P fanboys touting "all i did was add an apex kit....".
Yeah, how much is that? Why would people brag about having to add additional hardware and cost to a brand new firearm? I just don't get it. But that's me.
....
Ok, rant done. ;)
Considering that my M&P's are justifying a place alongside excruciatingly nice 1911's, and that I can still assemble a FS M&P9 NS/TS with FSS or DCAEK/AET kit and spare mags for half the price of a good semi-custom, in my price range they're extremely competitive. Sure $800 should buy a hell of a lot of pistol, but anything else in that price range that works as well for me absorbs as much work and winds up costing more. I've been happy with the accuracy for my pair of FS9's, and my pair of 9mm shields really outshoot my ability for something that size - I just need to get around to installing tritium fronts on both, and 10-8 rears on both of them and I'll be thrilled.
I think they exceeded what reasonable expectations should have been - they were entering an already crowded market where their biggest competitor was already making solid and vetted models in GA, and had arguably better dealer support from the outset of this (due to S&W's historical market share decline), and have actually succeeded in claiming a respectable fraction of the market, and basically prompted the creation of the G42 to boot. Apex really helped with adoption for competitive and the high end tactical market, since their product line addressed most of the issues from early on for those willing to spend more than $500 on a pistol; realistically dethroning the G19 as the best handgun bang for the buck wasn't ever in the cards, but even getting close is an impressive showing.
I still think the M&P is a very valid handgun. I migrated over from 1911's and this is what I migrated to. It points naturally and the recent and current iterations only have minor challenges to overcome. A quick trigger job and the trigger bests a box stock VP9 or PPQ and swap out the sights (which for me is the first thing that happens on any handgun) and you are essentially gtg. The Glock is a fine handgun, but I didn't want to have to "learn" to love the grip angle and I don't care for the trigger. Are there better handguns out there, straight out of the box? More then likely, but it is still more then serviceable. It's a tool and it works. Add in a strong aftermarket presence and a true compact offering as well as a .22 offering and its a solid platform.
JackFanToM
03-16-15, 18:53
I have heard this said twice in this thread alone, and I hear it all the time..."maybe I'm just lucky, or I haven't experienced any of the problems of other m&p owners, or I don't have the accuracy problems, etc." These statement, imo, tell the true story of the completely inconsistent QC that S&W put into this venture. Do I claim the platform is defunct...no, but after my personal experiences with the platform I can tell you I will not be trusting MY life to the S&W M&P line. I purchased mine for roughly $500, and experienced the unlocking issue that created inconsistent grouping, so I sent $150 more on a match barrel (now I have spent $650). This resolved the grouping issue...somewhat as I was still able to out shoot the platform and my pistol skills are average at best. I added new sights, but I do this to all handguns as I prefer what I prefer ($100 so we are at $750, but as I said the same can be added to any handgun I purchase). Replaced the trigger with an APEX FSS, the handgun began having 2-5 light strikes per mag with ALL ammo, switched trigger back to factory (spent $160 for nothing, but still spent so we are at $910). I then set forth on a mission to get the feel of the FSS and the reliability of the factory (I did enjoy the FSS feel quite a bit). I bought the APEX DCAEK, and installed that (another $75, so now $985). The light strikes began again, but this time much less frequent, but the trigger felt less than ideal (still wanted the FSS feel). I then bought a new trigger bar, as I assumed it was the timing so I planned to fiddle with the loop ($35), bought a high power striker assembly ($30). Basically, at this point the gun was accurate, reliable, and had a decent trigger, and with holsters and a few other accessories I was heavily invested ($1050 on the handgun alone), but I could not shake the light strikes from my mind. Let's just say my faith was shaken in the platform, even knowing I created the light strikes by modifying the gun didn't alleviate this nagging feeling. Basically I had now spent well over $1000 on a CCW pistol that I just didn't trust, so I sold it to an RO at my local range (he loves it and competes with it). I then bought a Walther PPQ, added sights ($595 for the handgun and $125 for a mixed set of Dawson/10-8 sights) and never looked back...better trigger feel, way way way more accurate, better size (similar to G19), better ergos, and around 7k rounds thus far and no hiccups yet (knocks on wood). That is my take on M&P this far...nice try but they need work.
I always thought the M&P line failed to really give shooters a reason to switch from Glock...the P320 brings a groundbreaking level of modularity to the table, and the VP9 offers excellent ergonomics with an outstanding out of the box trigger pull. Sure the M&P was the first popular plastic gun to offer different backstraps, but there were too many other issues to overcome. Also the sizing of the Compact is a little smaller than I think most people are looking for.
There are plenty of reasons to switch from Glock, external safety being one of them. The reasons to switch is probably not the issue. It maybe more on the politics of firearm acquisition/contracts, and in some cases the reliability issues of the M&P. Also Glock has a long-standing reputation with many agencies already so this is quite hard to overcome.
I've never had any issues with my M&P's and Glock's. Given the option I would still go with an M&P but only slightly.
I have heard this said twice in this thread alone, and I hear it all the time..."maybe I'm just lucky, or I haven't experienced any of the problems of other m&p owners, or I don't have the accuracy problems, etc." These statement, imo, tell the true story of the completely inconsistent QC that S&W put into this venture. Do I claim the platform is defunct...no, but after my personal experiences with the platform I can tell you I will not be trusting MY life to the S&W M&P line. I purchased mine for roughly $500, and experienced the unlocking issue that created inconsistent grouping, so I sent $150 more on a match barrel (now I have spent $650). This resolved the grouping issue...somewhat as I was still able to out shoot the platform and my pistol skills are average at best. I added new sights, but I do this to all handguns as I prefer what I prefer ($100 so we are at $750, but as I said the same can be added to any handgun I purchase). Replaced the trigger with an APEX FSS, the handgun began having 2-5 light strikes per mag with ALL ammo, switched trigger back to factory (spent $160 for nothing, but still spent so we are at $910). I then set forth on a mission to get the feel of the FSS and the reliability of the factory (I did enjoy the FSS feel quite a bit). I bought the APEX DCAEK, and installed that (another $75, so now $985). The light strikes began again, but this time much less frequent, but the trigger felt less than ideal (still wanted the FSS feel). I then bought a new trigger bar, as I assumed it was the timing so I planned to fiddle with the loop ($35), bought a high power striker assembly ($30). Basically, at this point the gun was accurate, reliable, and had a decent trigger, and with holsters and a few other accessories I was heavily invested ($1050 on the handgun alone), but I could not shake the light strikes from my mind. Let's just say my faith was shaken in the platform, even knowing I created the light strikes by modifying the gun didn't alleviate this nagging feeling. Basically I had now spent well over $1000 on a CCW pistol that I just didn't trust, so I sold it to an RO at my local range (he loves it and competes with it). I then bought a Walther PPQ, added sights ($595 for the handgun and $125 for a mixed set of Dawson/10-8 sights) and never looked back...better trigger feel, way way way more accurate, better size (similar to G19), better ergos, and around 7k rounds thus far and no hiccups yet (knocks on wood). That is my take on M&P this far...nice try but they need work.
Um... you spent way too much modifying a perfectly fine pistol IMO.
If you had problems out of the box, let S&W fix it with the warranty. Other than sights, I leave my Glock's and M&P's alone. Triggers are not perfect on either line, but that is something than can be overcome with practice.
JackFanToM
03-16-15, 19:39
Um... you spent way too much modifying a perfectly fine pistol IMO.
If you had problems out of the box, let S&W fix it with the warranty. Other than sights, I leave my Glock's and M&P's alone. Triggers are not perfect on either line, but that is something than can be overcome with practice.
Actually I had accuracy issues out of the box, so modifying the pistol was necessary to achieve "decent" accuracy. . I would question the phrase "perfectly fine", as perfectly fine in a carry weapon is quite a bit different than "perfectly fine" for a range toy. In this case the qualification of carry weapon made me 100% positive the M&P was anything but "perfectly fine". As far as the trigger goes, the PPQ is pretty close to perfect, and although I haven't had any trigger time with the VP9 I have heard it is near perfect as well, so why settle on a product that does not meet MY wants/needs. What I am trying to articulate is, with all the options out there why would anyone "settle" for an M&P with sketchy QC, mushy trigger and suspect accuracy. Like I stated is it a junk gun? No, but I'm not confident enough in the platform to place my life in the hands of an M&P. In addition, as I did state (in a convoluted fashion) the modifications were attempted to make a platform that wasn't right to begin with (for me), right. In the end I just went with a platform that was right for me, and I'm happier. The point of this thread is basically how has S&W done thus far with the M&P line, and my answer is I would grade them a C- . At that grade, and for similar cost, there are much better platforms to be had.
Well it seems you had a bad pistol out of the box. Sorry to hear that. I can't comment on your accuracy issue with the M&P since I dont' know your shooting technique or the flaws on the pistol itself.
No pistol is perfect, even the Glock. No matter how much they claim perfection. Yes I've owned so many of them and still think they are not perfect. For now I'm running a G19 G4 for both CCW and 3gun. Its quite an ugly pistol compared to a HK or M&P, but it does the job.
I thought they designed it around the 40.
The 9mms straight up sucked for a few years and I'm not a 40 guy so the M&P never appealed to me at all.
Most Glock people compare everything to the 19. That's why so few people move away from Glock.
The only thing close is a P2000, and if you're not into horrible triggers and obnoxiously big slide stop levers flopping everywhere, you won't really like it as much as a 19.
You're forgetting the Sig P320 Compact.
PatrioticDisorder
03-17-15, 05:18
Nutty? Did you forget that I sold a G19? I don't have that many anymore.
Even if I did, GLOCKS are Perfection. ;) tisk tisk
Perfection? All I ask is they fix the damn extractor issue so I can have a 9mm that doesn't peg me in the face out of the box, you would think this is not too much to ask, but it seems it is. Say what you will about M&Ps, mine hafe always run well for me, boringly reliable.
Eurodriver
03-17-15, 06:55
Perfection? All I ask is they fix the damn extractor issue so I can have a 9mm that doesn't peg me in the face out of the box, you would think this is not too much to ask, but it seems it is. Say what you will about M&Ps, mine hafe always run well for me, boringly reliable.
I understand and agree, but to be completely fair every (post ~2013) Gen 4 9mm I have fired has not had this issue.
PatrioticDisorder
03-17-15, 07:19
I understand and agree, but to be completely fair every (post ~2013) Gen 4 9mm I have fired has not had this issue.
Consider yourself lucky, I'm 0-2 as both my 19 & 26 (produced in November and October 2014 respectively) have the brass to the face issue. My 26 significantly worse than the 19 and unfortunately for me, the Apex extractor is not a drop in part for the 26, good times....
Eurodriver
03-17-15, 08:17
Maybe that Glock knows you aren't a true fan. ;)
These are Gen4 Glocks? I bought a Gen3 G19 brand new, Dec 2014 manuf. date last month and it had the BTF issue but a 30274 fixed it.
PatrioticDisorder
03-17-15, 08:42
Maybe that Glock knows you aren't a true fan. ;)
These are Gen4 Glocks? I bought a Gen3 G19 brand new, Dec 2014 manuf. date last month and it had the BTF issue but a 30274 fixed it.
Yes, both Gen4s.... And maybe Glock didn't get the memo, but I'm the original Glock fanboy. Shot my first Glock, a Gen2 19 at age 13, that was 20 years ago. I was such a Glock fanboy when people would doodle those stupid' in study hall in Jr. high, I doodled Glock 19s.
As a disclaimer, I am issued a M&P for duty, but in my plainclothes assignment I usually carry a G19. Off duty it is usually a G19 or M&P compact 9 or .45.
I think Smith has to be satisfied with the overall results of the M&P series. There were some fairly large agencies that were early adopters, and my understanding is several of these agencies have since swapped out for the updated generations. I do not think anyone would have rationally expected the M&P to drive Glock, SIG, or anyone else from the LE agency market. What it did do is replace the aging third generation designs that, while reliable, were dated by comparison. This gave Smith a bigger footprint in the market and returned them to a competitive status. I would suggest (because I do not know for certain) that their modular backstrap was the impetus for Glock to do the same in the Gen4 guns. This kept them on even footing for agencies looking for flexibility in grip size.
They have had issues, such as tactile reset and accuracy in the full size 9mm, but as I understand it they have moved to address and improve these issues. For example, it is my understanding all M&Ps now come with what used to be the PC sear to improve the trigger. As consumers, many may not be happy with the lack of speed with which some of these adjustments came, but other brands have been equally slow to admit/correct their flaws.
I admit that many, myself included, would like to see a mid size 9. But absent that, I shoot the 9c pretty well and the 45c is to me just about the perfect .45 CCW. I think most of us would agree the Shield 9mm really beat Glock to the punch and grabbed a pretty significant market share for that size pistol.
watercop08
03-18-15, 11:10
Coincidentally my department just chose to switch from Sig p229 in .40 to the MP9. I work for a department of around 270 sworn officers. My involvement in the process was very limited but I did get some trigger time with the test guns. We only tested 2 platforms: Glock G17's Gen 4 (with an 8lb connector :( ) and the most recent rendition of the MP9 with the PVD slide (151215). The testing process was largely subjectional in nature.
Ergonomics wise the Smith beat the Glocks hands down...not my opinion but that was the general consensus among those who got to fondle the guns.
Initially both guns shot and grouped very well with frangible rounds...(don't recall the grain). Due to weather here in the frigid north most of the testing was conducted at our indoor range.
As the weather warmed up and we moved on to testing the guns with 115 ball rounds we found that both sample guns from Smith had 8-12 inch groups at 25 yards :bad: . We found that the Smiths hated anything but frangible for some reason. More important people then me contacted the Smith rep about the issue and we had 2 new test guns within a few days. The second set of guns from smith were absolute tack divers.
Both sets of guns preformed flawlessly for the remainder of the testing... for the most part. During the testing the guns were never cleaned; just oiled. I don't have an exact number for rounds fired but it was close to 1,500 per gun, mostly frangible. Toward the end of the testing process one of the 17's began ejecting rounds into the shooters face and the other had the trigger pins walk out.
In the end Smith's offer was chosen because they beat Glock's offer by a substantial amount and threw in quite a few perks that Glock can't/ won't offer.
Due to the performance of both guns we will most likely issue Mp's but have the option to carry a personally owned Glock or Sig if the officer so chooses.
Personally, I as long as my issued MP groups like it should I won't have any problem trusting a current MP9.
Yes, both Gen4s.... And maybe Glock didn't get the memo, but I'm the original Glock fanboy. Shot my first Glock, a Gen2 19 at age 13, that was 20 years ago. I was such a Glock fanboy when people would doodle those stupid' in study hall in Jr. high, I doodled Glock 19s.
You're not old enough to be the original Glock fanboy sonny.
I tried the m&p and it did not do it for me. I still have my shield though. But better trigger and small enough too carry. The triggers suck out of the box and the accuracy issues are crazy. I just do not understand why they dragged there feet to fix the stuff. The p320 is starting to pick up leos and if the vp9 can start getting traction I think it will also do good. Big advantage for the sig is the glock like sizes. But they need to learn how to build and stock what they preach. I would love for Smith to come out with a revamp. They do not need to do a whole lot to get them right either. Get apex in house and show em how to fix the triggers. Figure out the barrel situation. It is funny to me because the 45 seems to run pretty and good and group really well but the 9 fell apart
5.56Capital
03-20-15, 00:01
I doubt smith ever thought they would " take over " the Glock market. That's simply not possible
since Glock has been at it for decades. I definitely think the M&P line has been a success
and has won the hearts of MANY glock fanatics, that in its self is an unfeasible task.
For me it was
1) grip angle
2) factory night sights
3) lower base price
4) same reliability with no BTF or other issues some of the gen4's were having.
AztecViking
03-20-15, 09:18
I tried the m&p and it did not do it for me. I still have my shield though. But better trigger and small enough too carry. The triggers suck out of the box and the accuracy issues are crazy. I just do not understand why they dragged there feet to fix the stuff. The p320 is starting to pick up leos and if the vp9 can start getting traction I think it will also do good. Big advantage for the sig is the glock like sizes. But they need to learn how to build and stock what they preach. I would love for Smith to come out with a revamp. They do not need to do a whole lot to get them right either. Get apex in house and show em how to fix the triggers. Figure out the barrel situation. It is funny to me because the 45 seems to run pretty and good and group really well but the 9 fell apart
The issues you speak of in regards to the 9's have been resolved. The accuracy issues have been fixed for some time now and the triggers have been improved as recently as early 2014 models. Grant has highlighted the upgrades in a few different threads.
brickboy240
03-20-15, 10:17
The M&P series has sure faired better than most of S&W's center fire semi-autos.
I really think the only thing that might have upstaged Glock would have been the VP-9. However, HK is not producing tons of variations and the mags are also fairly expensive compared to Glock.
Nothing will probably ever unseat Glock from its perch but maybe the P230 and upcoming Beretta APX will also occupy places that the PPQ and M&P have done - give us somewhat workable options to the Glock platform.
The issues you speak of in regards to the 9's have been resolved. The accuracy issues have been fixed for some time now and the triggers have been improved as recently as early 2014 models. Grant has highlighted the upgrades in a few different threads.
right, which I stated they fixed them. Just took too long. Too me the accuracy should not have been a problem to the extent that they were for that long of time. The new guns are ok but the triggers still are not great and it is time to throw some fresh paint on em.. Not saying carbon fiber. But a revamp is in order
JackFanToM
03-20-15, 18:46
I keep hearing people say that S&W has addressed and fixed the known issues, but that doesn't restore faith. I owned a Ford once (unfortunately I bought a Ford Tempo), and it was nothing but issues followed by a rod through the engine wall. The car was dead at the very young age of 58k miles....the warranty was 30k, and believe me when I say I did ALL the maintenance and kept the records. Ford was contacted regarding it, and suffice it to say I was never "taken care of". I will never own a Ford product again. Yes I know the Tempo was a dog, and that Ford has changed completely, but my faith in their company was shaken, and when forced to drive a Ford rental car I still flinch at odd sounds. That was transportation, not a self defense gun, so let me ask you, if the platform burnt you early on, and you and your family are planning to defend yourself with that platform, will you ever truly feel confident? We are not talking microwave ovens, operating systems, or other nonsense, we are talking firearms that many people purchase to defend their lives. I think absolute confidence is a must. Range toy? Sure go for it, but carry firearm, no thank you. The thing is, everyone keeps asking for opinions and experiences in this forum, and when someone provides actual feedback with experience, then other people get their panties in a bunch if they do not like the answer. You (the collective you) may have a different experience. You may have had bad experiences with items that I have had nothing but positive experiences from, does that make your opinion wrong and mine right? This is a comfort thing, and it is my opinion that S&W burnt me with the M&P FS 9mm. Believe me I wanted to love that gun. It felt great, and I spent a ton of money on it, but I could never regain confidence. The accuracy alone was enough to make me want to walk away, but I continued to try and correct what should never have been wrong.
In my opinion, good companies stand behind their products. Good companies don't act as if the problem doesn't exist until it reaches critical mass. A good company would have started fixing all of the handguns already out in the market, upon request, no questions asked. That didn't happen, instead they corrected it "going forward", and if you had/have a previously purchased firearm they will ask you to send it in at your cost to do their own evaluation...they KNOW the problem exists and still they make the customer prove it. Yeah buy that M&P, but me I'll take my money elsewhere. I prefer to use a firearm I trust...this is why none of you buy subpar ARs, and have very high expectations of AR performance (as you should). Why is it so different with your sidearm, seems counter intuitive to me, but to each their own.
I wonder if 30 years ago guys were sitting at the bar discussing whether Gluck was happy with how their product was fairing in the market vs Smith wheel guns. That's essentially what's being asked here. If S&W goal was to unseat glock they darn sure knew it was going to take a while because it took quite a while for glock to overcome market inertia and replace them.
IIRC, when Glock was introduced to the US market it was initially regarded as something of a novelty (" A plastic framed pistol? - that'll go nowhere fast").
PatrioticDisorder
03-20-15, 20:06
I keep hearing people say that S&W has addressed and fixed the known issues, but that doesn't restore faith. I owned a Ford once (unfortunately I bought a Ford Tempo), and it was nothing but issues followed by a rod through the engine wall. The car was dead at the very young age of 58k miles....the warranty was 30k, and believe me when I say I did ALL the maintenance and kept the records. Ford was contacted regarding it, and suffice it to say I was never "taken care of". I will never own a Ford product again. Yes I know the Tempo was a dog, and that Ford has changed completely, but my faith in their company was shaken, and when forced to drive a Ford rental car I still flinch at odd sounds. That was transportation, not a self defense gun, so let me ask you, if the platform burnt you early on, and you and your family are planning to defend yourself with that platform, will you ever truly feel confident? We are not talking microwave ovens, operating systems, or other nonsense, we are talking firearms that many people purchase to defend their lives. I think absolute confidence is a must. Range toy? Sure go for it, but carry firearm, no thank you. The thing is, everyone keeps asking for opinions and experiences in this forum, and when someone provides actual feedback with experience, then other people get their panties in a bunch if they do not like the answer. You (the collective you) may have a different experience. You may have had bad experiences with items that I have had nothing but positive experiences from, does that make your opinion wrong and mine right? This is a comfort thing, and it is my opinion that S&W burnt me with the M&P FS 9mm. Believe me I wanted to love that gun. It felt great, and I spent a ton of money on it, but I could never regain confidence. The accuracy alone was enough to make me want to walk away, but I continued to try and correct what should never have been wrong.
In my opinion, good companies stand behind their products. Good companies don't act as if the problem doesn't exist until it reaches critical mass. A good company would have started fixing all of the handguns already out in the market, upon request, no questions asked. That didn't happen, instead they corrected it "going forward", and if you had/have a previously purchased firearm they will ask you to send it in at your cost to do their own evaluation...they KNOW the problem exists and still they make the customer prove it. Yeah buy that M&P, but me I'll take my money elsewhere. I prefer to use a firearm I trust...this is why none of you buy subpar ARs, and have very high expectations of AR performance (as you should). Why is it so different with your sidearm, seems counter intuitive to me, but to each their own.
Fair enough but same could be said about Glock, particularly with the BTF issue... I swore off of Glocks over it and here I am back with Glock...
IIRC, when Glock was introduced to the US market it was initially regarded as something of a novelty (" A plastic framed pistol? - that'll go nowhere fast").
Tupperware Guns was what I heard here in Texas. Field strip and put them in the dishwasher to clean. :sarcastic:
We called Glocks "Combat Tupperware" back in the day. There were shooters who actually did clean their Combat Tupperware in the dishwasher. I'm told dishwasher soap is bad for your firearms, though
Tupperware Guns was what I heard here in Texas. Field strip and put them in the dishwasher to clean. :sarcastic:
We called Glocks "Combat Tupperware" back in the day. There were shooters who actually did clean their Combat Tupperware in the dishwasher. I'm told dishwasher soap is bad for your firearms, though
https://womenofcaliber.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/glocks-in-the-dishwasher.jpg
attrapereves
04-27-15, 09:22
I liked the way the M&Ps felt in my hand, but for some reason I never really warmed up to them. I owned at one point a FS 9, 45, a 45c, and a 9c. I actually owned a FS 9 and 45 twice, but sold them both times.
The quality seemed just a little lacking compared to Glocks and the triggers varied greatly. My 9FS models had decent triggers, while the 45 models had a silent/non-tactile reset. At least Glocks all pretty much have the same trigger feel.
I own a G17, G19 and now a G43. Also a M&P 45 Middy. So far I've done trigger work on all the guns except for the G43. That will come about also. I've also thrown in the Vickers Slide Stops and Mag Releases on my Glocks. None of it needed to be done of course. Overall the 45 Middy is my favorite and the most accurate of those mentioned. I carry the G19 and the M&P middy about an equal amount of time. I've also ran my G19 and the M&P through quite a few classes and neither of them has given me a hiccup. If I could only have one gun and had to chose it would be the M&P 45 Middy.
attrapereves
06-20-15, 15:09
Decided to get back into the M&P game. I picked up a new in box M&P9 full size on gunbroker for a good price. I noticed that the pistol was made in October 2012 and does not have any dimples on the barrel. What kind of accuracy should I expect from this gun? Does my gun have the changes which have seemed to corrected accuracy issues?
Decided to get back into the M&P game. I picked up a new in box M&P9 full size on gunbroker for a good price. I noticed that the pistol was made in October 2012 and does not have any dimples on the barrel. What kind of accuracy should I expect from this gun? Does my gun have the changes which have seemed to corrected accuracy issues?
The only real way to find out is of course, to go out and shoot it. There were a number of variables with the accuracy issues, I'd guess the odd ball rifling twist S&W used at the time, didn't help, but that wasn't the real culprit. The lockup between the barrel and slide was.. Get some feeler gauges and see what kind of gap you have between the barrel hood and the breach face, if you have say, .004-.005 then you might be OK. If it's between say, .006-.008 it's very possible that you'll have accuracy problems. I'm sure somebody will come along that knows more than I do, and can tell you more. My understanding is that S&W has tightened up tolerances between the slide/barrel, and made changes to the rifling twist in the barrel with in the last few years. So, it's also possible there's nothing wrong with it. Go out and shoot it. If you have a real accuracy problem, accuracy will usually fall apart past 15yds, That's what mine did..
attrapereves
06-20-15, 16:29
I just measured .009". However, when I push on the barrel hood, the barrel does not move.
I guess I'll find out when I shoot it.
The problems S&W had with M&P accuracy was limited to the 9mm's right? My M&P9 FS is a newer model as is the Shield. Picked up a used M&P45 Middy, no idea what year of manufacture last week from AIM Surplus. It did have the small sear spring and plunger in the sear housing block. Lyman Digital scale measured 7 lb 13 oz trigger pull and that is a little heavy, OKAY, a lot heavy. It is smooth and crisp, no reset to speak of. I have not made it to the range yet, maybe this next week.
My first M&P45 and happy so far with it.
attrapereves
06-20-15, 17:56
Right, it was just the full size 9mm models. Everything else is good to go.
Sure the M&P was the first popular plastic gun to offer different backstraps, but there were too many other issues to overcome.
Even that HK came up with interchangeable back straps first in the P2000. Granted not a very popular gun but... I guess all I am saying is Smith didn't invent the interchangeable back straps.
Just going to throw out there I don't think Smith was too slow in getting new things out there. They beat Glock to the punch with a single stack 9mm. They also had the first slide pre-milled for different RDSs (I think, unless FN did it first with the 45 Tact).
At the end of the day there are people that appreciate the M&P for what it is and people that don't. Out of the box it's less than desirable for a few reasons, some of which have been addressed. To me, the hinged trigger was one of the most poorly thought out designs in a modern handgun. I've owned Glock and HK pistols, but have always found myself going back to the M&P with an Apex trigger. With that modification, the more recent models are a pleasure to shoot for me personally. Reliability has never been an issue in the thousands upon thousands of rounds I've shot through mine.
I left the HK guns for cost and parts availability. They are without a doubt excellent firearms, but I like being able to find holsters, sights and magazines readily available locally. That said I'm very interested in the VP9, it will probably be my next purchase. Glock just isn't my cup of tea. As good as they are, the ergonomics just annoy me to no end.
polydeuces
06-20-15, 20:45
Glad this thread was started.
Their CS is an exercise in futility and smoke n mirrors - all shiny on the surface but nothing there in depth - large corporate compartmentalization and departmentalization in which no single person takes ownership and communication is non-existent.
Not in the least interested in fixing anything.
I shipped my M&P to have it checked for accuracy issues. (I.E. - can't hit the broadside of a barn past 15 yd. quite literally.)
Stated explicitly what the issue was - several times - emails, letter included w shiment, follow up calls etc.
Asked specifically to check for accuracy past 15 yrds.
VERY long story very short: Pistol came back, with S&W stating - get this: "all is fine, test-fired at 10 yds". INFURIATING!!!
It gets soooo much better but I will save this for later once they've had their chance to make right. Or not, but this is not over.
Has been stated here many times before: It is absolute lunacy to get this pistol performing acceptable one has to spend close to $400 in additional parts. Including a new barrel.
Meanwhile S&W remains mute. Pathetic.
Glad this thread was started.
Their CS is an exercise in futility and smoke n mirrors - all shiny on the surface but nothing there in depth - large corporate compartmentalization and departmentalization in which no single person takes ownership and communication is non-existent.
Not in the least interested in fixing anything.
I shipped my M&P to have it checked for accuracy issues. (I.E. - can't hit the broadside of a barn past 15 yd. quite literally.)
Stated explicitly what the issue was - several times - emails, letter included w shiment, follow up calls etc.
Asked specifically to check for accuracy past 15 yrds.
VERY long story very short: Pistol came back, with S&W stating - get this: "all is fine, test-fired at 10 yds". INFURIATING!!!
It gets soooo much better but I will save this for later once they've had their chance to make right. Or not, but this is not over.
Has been stated here many times before: It is absolute lunacy to get this pistol performing acceptable one has to spend close to $400 in additional parts. Including a new barrel.
Meanwhile S&W remains mute. Pathetic.
There's a lot of truth here, I got rid of both my M&P's (AFS 9, and a Mid size .45) The FS9 was a early gun with accuracy issues, The .45 was a accurate pistol, I started having failure to feed problems, and mag problems (rounds getting stuck in the mag body. To S&W's credit, they sent me new mag springs, followers, and later a couple of new mags, but the problem was never fully resolved) and I finally gave up on it as well. I finally realized you can't polish a turd. I replaced the .45's with a HK.45t and a .45ct they're both highly accurate, much more reliable, and way more durable, and although it took awhile, and a lot of ammo, I taught myself to use the stock HK DA trigger, I'm better for it. As for 9mm's I've got 2 VP9's, a P-2000 LEM, and a Gen4 G17, I'm running all them stock with the exception of having better sights installed on all of them, They all run just fine, and all are decently accurate. There's too many pistols out there for a few dollars more, that are so much better, and will give you a lot less headaches.. Some examples are, VP9, PPQ, CZ P-07 The CZ P-07,09's benefit greatly with some parts from Cajun gunworks, I have one,(P-07) but it's had some work done to it, and not exactly stock. Although in this case, it was well worth it, and didn't require a barrel replacement.
Had mag drop issues with my m&p 40
Went to all 9 mm shield and full size 9
All good so far .
That said so was my glock ,H&k and xd
[QUOTE=attrapereves;2139658]I just measured .009". However, when I push on the barrel hood, the barrel does not move.
I guess I'll find out when I shoot it.[/QUOTE
That measurement doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies, But go shoot it first, If you get minute of barn accuracy out of it then you'll have to decide whether or not to fix it (fitted, aftermarket barrel,) or sent it down the road..
attrapereves
06-20-15, 21:56
[QUOTE=attrapereves;2139658]I just measured .009". However, when I push on the barrel hood, the barrel does not move.
I guess I'll find out when I shoot it.[/QUOTE
That measurement doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies, But go shoot it first, If you get minute of barn accuracy out of it then you'll have to decide whether or not to fix it (fitted, aftermarket barrel,) or sent it down the road..
I suppose I shouldn't be too worried as I rarely shoot past 15yd. I mostly bought this gun as a self defense piece. It should perform well at that task.
I wonder if 30 years ago guys were sitting at the bar discussing whether Gluck was happy with how their product was fairing in the market vs Smith wheel guns. That's essentially what's being asked here. If S&W goal was to unseat glock they darn sure knew it was going to take a while because it took quite a while for glock to overcome market inertia and replace them.
The glaring difference is that at the time, Glocs were huge advancement over a wheel gun. The M&P is just another weak attempt to get a little market share.
I was excited about the M&P when they came out, but they just don't do anything well.
attrapereves
06-23-15, 15:21
Finally shot my new 2012 (probably old stock) M&P9 full size today. Now I remember why I've bought and sold two of these before. The trigger isn't terrible, but it isn't great either.
I think the biggest problem I have is getting consistent groupings. I think my Mossberg 500 with 00 buckshot at 50 yards has a more consistent grouping. The M&P45FS I used to own shot better than the 9mm, but still didn't shoot as tight as my 45 Glocks and 1911s.
Thinking I was having an off day, I picked up my Glock 26 at the same distance. Shot a nice tight group. I also picked up a friends SIG P226. Never shot a SIG before. Shot a nice tight group.
I'm thinking that the M&P9FS model is inherently less accurate than other pistols, but that the trigger doesn't help matters.
Guess I'll be selling this one. Maybe I'll finally learn that M&Ps don't work for me.
Finally shot my new 2012 (probably old stock) M&P9 full size today. Now I remember why I've bought and sold two of these before. The trigger isn't terrible, but it isn't great either.
I think the biggest problem I have is getting consistent groupings. I think my Mossberg 500 with 00 buckshot at 50 yards has a more consistent grouping. The M&P45FS I used to own shot better than the 9mm, but still didn't shoot as tight as my 45 Glocks and 1911s.
Thinking I was having an off day, I picked up my Glock 26 at the same distance. Shot a nice tight group. I also picked up a friends SIG P226. Never shot a SIG before. Shot a nice tight group.
I'm thinking that the M&P9FS model is inherently less accurate than other pistols, but that the trigger doesn't help matters.
Guess I'll be selling this one. Maybe I'll finally learn that M&Ps don't work for me.
If I had to guess, I'd bet it wasn't the trigger as much as it was the .009 gap you have between the slide and barrel hood.. Sloppy slide/barrel fit= sloppy accuracy, That's a proven fact. Send it down the road. If you want to try something else that's accurate and really doesn't need anything besides better sights maybe look at a HK VP9, or possibly a Sig P-320. From what I've been reading on this board, they seem to be running well, and seem accurate.
attrapereves
06-23-15, 18:55
If I had to guess, I'd bet it wasn't the trigger as much as it was the .009 gap you have between the slide and barrel hood.. Sloppy slide/barrel fit= sloppy accuracy, That's a proven fact. Send it down the road. If you want to try something else that's accurate and really doesn't need anything besides better sights maybe look at a HK VP9, or possibly a Sig P-320. From what I've been reading on this board, they seem to be running well, and seem accurate.
You know, I've never been much of a SIG fan, but those P320s are really appealing to me for some reason.
You know, I've never been much of a SIG fan, but those P320s are really appealing to me for some reason.
I've never shot one, but there's plenty of people here who have. I've yet to read anything bad about them. There's too many good pistols out there nowadays, all in the same price range that don't need much, other than better sights. The M&P isn't one of them.. They are what they are.
crusader377
06-24-15, 11:34
My thoughts with the M&P is that it is an outstanding design that so far has been marginally executed by Smith and Wesson. Although I have been happy with both my M&P 9 and M&P Shield and both have been problem free and accurate, S&W as a whole has had too many inexcusable issues with the M&P particularly with the inconsistent accuracy of the M&P 9, marginal triggers, and poor product management.
Although I feel it is still a good pistol, it is not the world beater that it still has the potential to be. I think four issues have kept the pistol back.
1) Accuracy issues with the M&P 9: Although some M&P 9s are accurate, some aren't. Although it seems that S&W has made improvements in this department, I think S&W should take a leadership role on fixing peoples pistols who have had accuracy issues and taking the problem off the table.
2) Trigger: S&W should simple contract with APEX and put their trigger standard on all of their M&Ps. Yes it might cost $20 or $30 more per pistol but it would take the S&W from having one of the worst triggers for a service grade polymer pistol to having one of the best.
3) Can we have a G19 sized M&P already: That pistol would sell like hotcakes.
4) Improve quality control of the M&P line: Although probably 99% of M&Ps work fine, S&W needs to be more proactive on the pistols that don't.
attrapereves
06-24-15, 12:44
I agree with everything you said. Why are there budget handguns that can shoot circles around some M&P9s? I'm thinking of the Walther PPX and those Turkish CZ clones specifically.
If S&W would fix the barrel issues (which they have already done a pretty good job with so far, but it's taken forever), and put in a better trigger, the M&P would definitely beat out the Glock.
For the next generation of the M&P, I'm thinking that an APEX type trigger and sear would be great from the factory. As well as a proper barrel.
00stormbringer
06-24-15, 18:43
My NIB M&P PC40 came with a gen 1 slide stop! Very disappointing to say the least. The gen 3 slide stop was reinforced to correct the breakage issues, and to provide an audible and tactile trigger reset. S&W should be ashamed of themselves for unethical business practices. If the gen 3 slide stops are behind schedule, then they should place a hold on rolling out the corresponding firearms.
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag308/00stormbringer/DSCN5221_zpsdqt6bvp7.jpg (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/00stormbringer/media/DSCN5221_zpsdqt6bvp7.jpg.html)
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag308/00stormbringer/DSCN5225_zpsn671b66x.jpg (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/00stormbringer/media/DSCN5225_zpsn671b66x.jpg.html)
The problems S&W had with M&P accuracy was limited to the 9mm's right? My M&P9 FS is a newer model as is the Shield. Picked up a used M&P45 Middy, no idea what year of manufacture last week from AIM Surplus. It did have the small sear spring and plunger in the sear housing block. Lyman Digital scale measured 7 lb 13 oz trigger pull and that is a little heavy, OKAY, a lot heavy. It is smooth and crisp, no reset to speak of. I have not made it to the range yet, maybe this next week.
My first M&P45 and happy so far with it.
Well I ordered the APEX Duty Carry Kit for the 45. The end result is a 6 lb 10 oz and up trigger pull. I changed the striker and TP went to opper 6 lb to 7 lb even. No reset notes tactile or audible. Trigger pull is nothing like my 9mm M&P's and Shield 9. Still, All in all it is smooth, crisp let off after a long takeup at a weight I can live with.
Any owners/shooters of current model M&P 45 FS or Mid? Does yours have a reset and fo you know what the TP weight is?
Would the AEK trigger help any on leverage/fulcrum point, making a lighter trigger? NOT THE FSS or Flat Faced FSS kit....NOPE.
attrapereves
06-26-15, 11:57
I've owned two full size M&P45s and a compact size. One was made in 2012, the other two were made in 2014. All pistols had very little reset. The 9mm models I've owned always had a reset. Not sure why the reset is so different among calibers.
I've owned two full size M&P45s and a compact size. One was made in 2012, the other two were made in 2014. All pistols had very little reset. The 9mm models I've owned always had a reset. Not sure why the reset is so different among calibers.
My M&P9's have a very nice reset. Audible and Tactile.
Unknow what year my used M&P45 was made, The Sear Block Housing had the small sear spring and easy to lose plunger..
Don't ask how I know..Thanks to Speed Shooters Specialties availability of parts and fast delivery.
I think Smith & Wesson should stick to wheelguns.
:suicide:Nice try, but that line has been repeated numerous times and never once has it sound original! I guess BMW should've stuck with making planes, huh? S&W is doing a great job with their M&P line in my opinion. I've owned glocks in the past and found them to be great shooters, but the ergonomics, appearance and weak weapon light rails on their pistols suck in my opinion and not to mention the weak & erratic ejectors on their new Gen4 line and even on some of the Gen3s. I'd consider purchasing a G19 Gen4 as a beater/under the car seat gun, but wondering if the ejector is any good once I begin to shooting it isn't worth the stress.
attrapereves
06-27-15, 21:08
:suicide:Nice try, but that line has been repeated numerous times and never once has it sound original! I guess BMW should've stuck with making planes, huh? S&W is doing a great job with their M&P line in my opinion. I've owned glocks in the past and found them to be great shooters, but the ergonomics, appearance and weak weapon light rails on their pistols suck in my opinion and not to mention the weak & erratic ejectors on their new Gen4 line and even on some of the Gen3s. I'd consider purchasing a G19 Gen4 as a beater/under the car seat gun, but wondering if the ejector is any good once I begin to shooting it isn't worth the stress.
It seems like almost every new gun has problems today. Glock had issues with their gen4, S&W had issues with their M&P magazines and 9mm accuracy, Walther had issues with mags releasing too easily with the M2 PPQ.
Despite what people say, I still don't think S&W has completely fixed the 9mm accuracy issues.
Well I ordered the APEX Duty Carry Kit for the 45. The end result is a 6 lb 10 oz and up trigger pull. I changed the striker and TP went to opper 6 lb to 7 lb even. No reset notes tactile or audible. Trigger pull is nothing like my 9mm M&P's and Shield 9. Still, All in all it is smooth, crisp let off after a long takeup at a weight I can live with.
Any owners/shooters of current model M&P 45 FS or Mid? Does yours have a reset and fo you know what the TP weight is?
Would the AEK trigger help any on leverage/fulcrum point, making a lighter trigger? NOT THE FSS or Flat Faced FSS kit....NOPE.
I have the M&P45 Midsized. No reset to speak of and a 7.75 TP. No modifications as of yet. 12/2013 mfg.
It seems like almost every new gun has problems today.
H&K. They build their stuff right. Too bad they're anout to go belly up.
The M&P to me, have been clunkers since day one. People try so hard to make 'em great, but they're still clunkers.
H&K. They build their stuff right. Too bad they're about to go belly up.
The M&P to me, have been clunkers since day one. People try so hard to make 'em great, but they're still clunkers.
My M&P's are not clunkers. H&K's have quality firearms, but way too much for common man.
They out priced themselves on their guns, except for the VP line. Kudos to H&K.
There is an import ban of German manufactured items.
My Sig Dist says any Sig with German parts are becoming scarce. This includes the DAK Sigs. No idea when the ban will change.
My M&P's are not clunkers. H&K's have quality firearms, but way too much for common man.
They out priced themselves on their guns, except for the VP line. Kudos to H&K.
There is an import ban of German manufactured items.
My Sig Dist says any Sig with German parts are becoming scarce. This includes the DAK Sigs. No idea when the ban will change.
After the common man buys an M&P and then throws another $300 down the M&P drain trying to fix the barrel and trigger, he could have just bought an H&K. But your right. That's how common men do things.
After the common man buys an M&P and then throws another $300 down the M&P drain trying to fix the barrel and trigger, he could have just bought an H&K. But your right. That's how common men do things.
No need to do either.
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No need to do either.
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This. Apex gets thrown around like it's a necessity. Maybe I lucked out, but my 2mps have what I think are pretty bad triggers. I shoot the gun better than my sao cz i used to have. People shoot 12lb double action just fine, so I don't think 6lb should be holding me back unless I go pro. Grit doesn't bother me. I pull the trigger straight back and smash it front to back so I don't feel it. That said, it's smoothed up after a few thousand rounds.
I can't comment on barrel. I have a 40 and it's more than accurate enough for self defense.
No need to do either.
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This is true. The triggers on all of the M&Ps I've handled have been quite shootable. I like Apex components, and they make the guns much nicer in my opinion, but they are definitely not necessities. As far as barrels go, I have not witnessed anything to back up the claims of wild inaccuracy. Maybe I have only seen good examples, or maybe I have just gotten lucky, or not shot at distance enough...
This is true. The triggers on all of the M&Ps I've handled have been quite shootable. I like Apex components, and they make the guns much nicer in my opinion, but they are definitely not necessities. As far as barrels go, I have not witnessed anything to back up the claims of wild inaccuracy. Maybe I have only seen good examples, or maybe I have just gotten lucky, or not shot at distance enough...
S&W is supposed to have resolved the accuracy issues...However the claims of wild inaccuracy are not just a wild claim, I had one, At 25 yds using factory ammo shooting off a bench rest at a 8x11" sheet of paper, I was lucky if I could get 7 rnds out of 17 on paper... And as was posted in this thread one person recently bought one made in 2012, that had .009 gap between the barrel hood, and breach face, the result? poor accuracy. My VP9 for example has .003 gap between the breach face and barrel hood, You can guess what that results in...Much better accuracy.. S&W gave themselves a lot of tolerance when fitting the barrel and slide, and while they're better than they used to be, until they get them as tight as say, HK does with the VP9, They'll still take a back seat in the accuracy dept.
Mine are accurate, the grit can be fixed with the USB from APEX. I shoot targets with mine so 4.5 to 5lb trigger is right for me. No need for 3-3.5 lb. I carried a Sig 226 DAK with a 7.5lb trigger. It was fine and boy could I snap my fingers from the strength I had..
APEX is really icing on a fine pistol or the meat and potatoes on others.
Been through all 10 pages of this thread and no mention of what I consider the biggest negative trait of my MP40s - they rattle like the mags are filled with marbles. I have two full-size M&P40s, they have been boringly reliable and reasonably accurate (though my CZ75 and the other '75 clones that I own will all shoot rings around the Smiths), but what's up with the rattle? Does this bother anyone else?
What hurt S&W was the slow to respond/react to shortcomings of the pistol, hoping buyers would just learn to accept it or when it gets sent to the S&W shop for repair, fix or repair the problem them. I guess if I owned a shop putting a firearm that was expected to be trustworthy and 100% reliable, I would be slow broke. My philosophy would be, don't let it out the door until it's right. I know it can be done as manufactures have managed to do it.
After carrying Sig 226's for 26+/- years I bought my own M&P9 FS and 9L, Shield and a 9C. Not as warm to the 9c so it will move on out and a Sig 329 Compact, 15 rnd mag and 3.9" barrel, will take the 9c spot. I have a Sig 239 9mm, it's a great gun almost 20 years old, but it is a heavier Shield size wise and capacity.
I agree, I bought an M&P in 9mm and it had the absolute worst trigger that I have ever experienced in my 45 years of owning guns. I felt that I should not have to pay the extra money to buy an Apex trigger to correct a problem that should have been addressed by Smith. The gun is great now, the new trigger and sone good sights have made all the difference in the world. Damn shame Smith didn't do this from the get go!!!!
Fordtough25
06-30-15, 04:32
We have two examples, a FS 9mm from 2011 that has a mediocre trigger and ok accuracy, and a Vtac in 9mm from early this year production. The newer Vtac is hadns down more accurate and the trigger is not bad at all. I may get one of the upgraded barrels for my wifes older example but the Vtac is good to go. :)
I have a M&P Pro from 2011. The accuracy issues I've had have been related to my reloads, other than something I picked up on the Enos forum not long after buying the M&P. Someone on the forum noticed that the gun was less accurate shooting from the bench if the gun rested on the bag or whatever you used as a rest. My gun was less accurate if I rested it on my range bag than if I rested my arms on the bag. I don't know why this is the case but I now shoot all of my guns with only my arms resting on the bag. This might be worth a try before you buy a new barrel or send it to Smith. I've also learned to confirm accuracy with my Speer Gold Dots.
How are the M&P9C's? Seem like a great carry option. A bit smaller than the Glock 19.
attrapereves
06-30-15, 20:04
I've never thought that the M&P triggers are terrible, but they are certainly one of the "least best" striker fired triggers. The pull doesn't bother me, but I dislike the hinged trigger. It changes the feel while you are pulling it.
How are the M&P9C's? Seem like a great carry option. A bit smaller than the Glock 19.
I owned one. It shot well, but I didn't care for the size. Bigger than a Glock 26, but smaller than a 19. Glocks may not be perfect, but they got the sizes perfect.
I own a Walther PPX, and it's a great gun. Hard to believe, though, that a budget/entry 9mm is capable of greater mechanical accuracy than an M&P.
My thoughts with the M&P is that it is an outstanding design that so far has been marginally executed by Smith and Wesson. Although I have been happy with both my M&P 9 and M&P Shield and both have been problem free and accurate, S&W as a whole has had too many inexcusable issues with the M&P particularly with the inconsistent accuracy of the M&P 9, marginal triggers, and poor product management.
Although I feel it is still a good pistol, it is not the world beater that it still has the potential to be. I think four issues have kept the pistol back.
1) Accuracy issues with the M&P 9: Although some M&P 9s are accurate, some aren't. Although it seems that S&W has made improvements in this department, I think S&W should take a leadership role on fixing peoples pistols who have had accuracy issues and taking the problem off the table.
2) Trigger: S&W should simple contract with APEX and put their trigger standard on all of their M&Ps. Yes it might cost $20 or $30 more per pistol but it would take the S&W from having one of the worst triggers for a service grade polymer pistol to having one of the best.
3) Can we have a G19 sized M&P already: That pistol would sell like hotcakes.
4) Improve quality control of the M&P line: Although probably 99% of M&Ps work fine, S&W needs to be more proactive on the pistols that don't.
1. I feel like the accuracy issues were horribly overblown. Of the 8 full sized M&P 9's I've had, one showed signs of being a mediocre shooter. As with the Glock BTF issues; no matter how small the problem really is, those with complaints make the most noise.
2. Regardless of how much polishing one may do, the trigger is utter garbage. The hinged design gives a very inconsistent feel IMHO. The apex trigger is as good or better than the HK VP9 trigger.
3. Absolutely!
4. With the relatively short time the line has been out, the reputation is amazingly bad. It always amazes me that people complain of a duty pistols accuracy past 15 yards. The likelihood of 99% of us making a pistol shot past 15 yards in a high stress environment is slim to none. It would actually be interesting to see some statistics on this. Who knows, maybe I'm just not seeing the bigger picture.
Clearly YMMV
No argument about making shots under stress, that's what made this Security Policeman's shots pretty remarkable (to stray off topic a bit):
http://fairchildhospitalshooting.com/OSI%20Summary.pdf
I believe the SP was using a standard Beretta M9.
MountainRaven
06-30-15, 22:56
Even that HK came up with interchangeable back straps first in the P2000. Granted not a very popular gun but... I guess all I am saying is Smith didn't invent the interchangeable back straps.
H&K didn't do it first, either.
I believe that honor goes to Walther's P99.
I've never thought that the M&P triggers are terrible, but they are certainly one of the "least best" striker fired triggers. The pull doesn't bother me, but I dislike the hinged trigger. It changes the feel while you are pulling it.
I owned one. It shot well, but I didn't care for the size. Bigger than a Glock 26, but smaller than a 19. Glocks may not be perfect, but they got the sizes perfect.
I had a 9c for a brief time. Grip too short to fit hand, Shield felt better, Sig 320 feels better, FAT Fatty Fat. Wasn't too bad with the extended finger grip, but still not what I was looking for. Got rid of it, stay with Shield or Sig 239, both in 9mm.
attrapereves
07-02-15, 14:31
I own a Walther PPX, and it's a great gun. Hard to believe, though, that a budget/entry 9mm is capable of greater mechanical accuracy than an M&P.
My $300 Turkish CZ clones are more accurate and have better triggers than any M&P.
My $300 Turkish CZ clones are more accurate and have better triggers than any M&P.
Really? So you've compared it to every single one?
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Really? So you've compared it to every single one?
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Most important is the reliability. What's the track record? Every gun has a compromise, at least potentially.
Edit, just saw "any". Lol. All I'm going to say is triggers greatly influence many shooters, but not a guns accuracy.
packinaglock
07-03-15, 15:20
I always thought the M&P line failed to really give shooters a reason to switch from Glock...the P320 brings a groundbreaking level of modularity to the table, and the VP9 offers excellent ergonomics with an outstanding out of the box trigger pull. Sure the M&P was the first popular plastic gun to offer different backstraps, but there were too many other issues to overcome. Also the sizing of the Compact is a little smaller than I think most people are looking for.
That is what does it for me, I have a M&P .40fs a little to big for carry for my tastes. I have a M&P 9c and .40c a little too small of a handle. The only way I can comfortably carry a sub compact Glock is with a GAP floor plate and I don't think they're made for the M&P's. I have a Shield 9mm but I rarely ever carry a single stack. The M&P are nice but they all sit in my safe. Now if S&W would make an M&P the size of a G19 I would carry that in a heartbeat!
attrapereves
07-03-15, 16:44
Really? So you've compared it to every single one?
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Probably should have worded it this way instead...
My $300 Turkish CZ clones are more accurate than most M&Ps. They also have better triggers than any stock M&P.
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