View Full Version : Which Body Armor?
This is my first post on this forum. I’ve been looking at taking a tactical carbine class and need to purchase body armor for the class. It’s been looking for a reason to purchase some and this is a great excuse! Pat Roger’s classes call for a level IIIA vest with level 4 plates. Which brands would you all recommend and which vendors? Thanks for any and all advice.
How about this line of thought.
Get what suits YOUR day to day needs
Pat_Rogers
06-13-06, 07:13
This is my first post on this forum. I’ve been looking at taking a tactical carbine class and need to purchase body armor for the class. It’s been looking for a reason to purchase some and this is a great excuse! Pat Roger’s classes call for a level IIIA vest with level 4 plates. Which brands would you all recommend and which vendors? Thanks for any and all advice.
Far be it for me to tell someone not to buy gear...
Howevercomma i require armor only for those classes where there are more than two people inside the shoothouse- that is, the 5 Day Classes in WV.
I require hard and soft armor. By hard armor we mean rifle plates, and whether stand alone or in conjunction, soft armor with it.
The reason for the armor should be apparent- two man teams in the shoot house mean that everyone has to be very switched on. And, as many receive their initial tactics training from watching TV/ movies or playing computer games, they will often forget their real deal training and lapse into fantasy world.
If i'm going to err, it will be on the side of safety.
You need to be able to shop carefully and wisely for armor, as what you think/ what is advertised may not be what is useful.
Pat, I absolutely agree that wearing armor does make sense. It also mirrors a real world situation because if anyone was in an urban house clearing scenario they would be wearing armor.
I work in a secondary federal law enforcement position so I’m issued armor when needed. As a result I don’t have any of my own. Is it generally better to get a plate carrier like a CIRAS and add stand alone plates or level IIIA soft body armor and add level IV plates?
Pat_Rogers
06-13-06, 09:34
A CIRAS isn't a plate carrier. The CIRAS is an integrated soft/hard armor releasable package. It has a fair amount of real estate.
A plate carrier is a plate carrier, and while one can be had with soft armor built in, the reduction is coverage is pretty severe. It has limited real estate.
The Eagle PC/ cummerbund is a pretty slick unit.
Stand alone plates are pretty specific items and my preference is soft armor with in conjunction plates for general use.
Note that i recommend Level 3 Plates, as they are multi strike. There are some Level 4 plates that are multi strike but very expensive- the majority of L4 are single strike.
As I am too old and crotchety to play the latest incarnation of Ghost Recon on whatever do jour game console, I opt to shoot the real stuff. :D
That being said, what I said earlier still holds true, get what suits your Day to Day needs. If your need dictate getting a fuller coverage BALCS cut releasable armor setup, then do consider the CIRAS. HOWEVER, bear in mind that this choice will impart a penalty with regards to constriction of range of motion.
NOW, having stated that you are a " federal law enforcement position", does the day to day duties require the wear of concealable armor? What rating? Perhaps a dedicated Plate Carrier (Eagle w/cummerbund) with L IV Ceramic Protection Triple Curve plates will fit the bill, as it could be used ICW your daily wear vest.
That being said, I also believe that you should train with your duty kit whenever possible rather than buying a new setup for a particular class; if you do, make sure that you have enough experience with the rig prior to attendance.
Egg
Thanks for the replies. At work we are issued soft IIIA body armor when needed. They are really plain and don’t have any load bearing features. I was just uncertain how the CIRAS worked. I gave Eagle a call and they were really helpful. Thanks Again - Stephen
bear in mind the CIRAS is an OUTERVEST, exclusive of concealable armor
the soft armor inserts are pattern after the SOCOM BALCS armor which are cut for coverage vice concealbility.
If you run the plate carrier, you add the hard armor capability when needed, plus with the eagle, you can run soft inserts inside the commerbund panels thus increase your level of side protection.
ALWAYS wear softarmor underneath a platecarrier (to mitigate blunt force trauma and spalling)
if you do go the route of the EPC, I would suggest replacing the 550 cord lacing with 3/16 bungee cord as it makes for a more fleixble and ROM friendly platform.
EGG
Pat_Rogers
06-14-06, 11:40
No, the armor in the CIRAS vest is not "pattern (sic) after the SOCOM BALCS armor".
It was made for that armor. Ergo, MC CIRAS, RLCS et al.
That particular armor combo was made to enhance user ability to fight. Not sure where your getting your information from.
However, i know where i do...
Ergo...
CIRAS was designed to accommodate BALCS cut soft panels.
...and provide a viable option than the less than optimal issue BALCS covers, while providing a releasable load carrying platform.
**If your need dictate getting a fuller coverage BALCS cut releasable armor setup, then do consider the CIRAS. HOWEVER, bear in mind that this choice will impart a penalty with regards to constriction of range of motion.**
Enhancing? yes if you are one of HSLD types, whose need dictate an integrated releasable armor/load carrying package. If someone is not one of the above or trains to this standard, then the 'enhancing' benefit becomes suspect.
Pat, I do not understand where/why you are getting wound up? In the end, STeed has received some opinions on what to acquire or consider prior to acquisition. If you feel this needs to be further discussed, I would be more than happy to entertain a phone call and frank discussion on gear and conceptual usage.
Best
Darrin (eggroll)
Pat_Rogers
06-14-06, 18:53
I completed a contract to train those personnel using the CIRAS in its use.
I am confident of my information.
The errornet is that way because of poor input.
I'd be happy to have a discussion when you are signing my contracts :)
Pardon my error in judgment in offering a discussion. Please disregard my last then.
Darrin
There's no need for anyone to be upset.
The reason we are here is to share information and dispel the misinformation that is out there.
Discussion is good, getting upset is not.
OK I have to admit, I'm a newb to the armor thing. I was reading Pat's class announcement and thinking about next year-I'm about tapped out of training dollars for this year.
For us newbs what is BALC?
How is it different thatn CIRAS?
Why does Eagle offer a Maritime version? The squid in me is dying to know.
BALCS = body armor load carrying system
actually a system component under the SPEAR program of the late 90's, has been reduced to the generic 'name'/reference for that particular style of cut pattern.
the CIRAS is Eagle's answer to the question of a releasable armor "CARRIER" that is designed to accept BALCS cut panels whether they be mil issue or civilian.
It is markedly better in several areas over the original BALCS cover. 1) Single point Pillow Releasable - once deployed the ENTIRE rig will dissassemble thus freeing the wearer of additional weight and obstructions. A necessary functionality for those involved in water/heloborne activities 2) PALS coverage so that you can carry ammo, water and a slight amount of pogey line bait. 3) Better degree of construction, far more secure method of plate retention.
While there is a superficial resemblance between the two, about the only shared commonality between the Eagle CIRAS and Paraclete RAV is the releasability feature.
So what does that Mean?
BALCS = Issue special operations-centric soft ballistics and hard armor with carrier
CIRAS = Eagle's releasable BALCS armor carrier, designed to carry BALCS cut soft armor panels that are either mil or civ in origin.
RAV = Paraclete's releasable armor carrier
There are two variations of the CIRAS, a LAND (with cummerbund) and a MARITIME variant (with no cummerbund).
As far as why there were two variations and why certain organizations opted to go the Maritime route is info I am NOT privy to, nor do I claim to know.
RLCS, based on open source information is the RANGER load carrying system, which by all appearances seems to be the RANGER GREEN variation of the KHAKI MLCS system, aside from that obvious difference, I am hard pressed to note the differences between the two aside from differences in material and hardware color.
Then you can add all the 'other' xLCS systems currently in or already out of development from Eagle.....
Tired yet? In the end, its all nylon... cordura with secureTack stitching :D
let me reclarify
BALCS is an integrated system that was part of "SPEAR" program that consisted of a backpack system (um-21) produced by Gregory and Bianchi, the body armor package (Ceradyne) and finally the ELCS (enhanced load carrying system) by safariland.
first appeared in the 1998/1999 timeframe.
Confused yet? :p
Egg-
Thanks for the details. I didn't know any of this and it really helps. Eagle mentioned Protective Products as a source for armor inserts. I was going to give them a call. Do you have any other vendors to recommend?
Stephen
STeed
PPI is what I run in my CIRAS, dont have a PoC for PPI but they had been recommended a few times over and when the opportunity came up, pricing seemed reasonable and I acquired a set for my "dont shoot me" vest :D
Please dont take what I said earlier as any sort of an attack or attempt to sway a "not to buy" decision, but the CIRAS option comes up ALOT in certain AR forums, namely because its the 'coolest' thing/CDI gadget around. And many times over people dont consider the options or use/functionality implications of what a particular platform may incur or have for a particular user. While it is a decent platform for what it is designed to do (I believe it does a better overall job than the RAV) the CIRAS is not for everybody.
In your case, you may want to revisit the Eagle Plate Carrier with cummerbund to be used in conjunction with your duty protective vest.
If you would still like to go the BALC outervest route, you may want to investigate the LE variant of the CIRAS... essentially the same overall planform but without the releasable function and commensurately lower overall price.
Either way, give Ben Lenett ben.lenett@eagleindustries.com a call and see what he can do for you.
Cheers and best of luck.
Darrin
Ben Lenett
06-15-06, 15:15
Contact PPI and ask for Delia. She will be able to assist you with any armor inserts you may need for our products.
There is a substantial price difference between the regular CIRAS and the LE Non-Releasable Model of approx. $200 in retail price.
The Maritime CIRAS is what the LE version is based off of. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Reference the question of why we offer a Maritime Model of the CIRAS. It was requested by a particluar organization. The Land and Maritime are both releasable vests. The difference is the Land has two release points, with one being at 0600 on the vest and the other being at either 0300 or 0900. The second point is set up based upon user preference. The Maritime only has one release point that is located at 1200 under the neck line.
I find the Land is better suited for large loadouts, but it is slightly more difficult to put on because of the large external cumberbund as well as adding some bulk to the vest. The Maritime is more streamlined and easier for a person to put on quickly. The Maritime is my personal choice when using an armor carrier of that nature.
Utilizing a Plate Carrier gives the end user more flexibility in their overall options. It will also make your overall profile SLIGHTLY more compact versus using a CIRAS. For people that are not assigned to a detail which is responsible for dedicated tactical operations, I almost always recommend the Plate Carrier with Cumberbund. That system will allow you to quickly upgrade threat protection over your existing soft armor based on the current situation unfolding in front of you. You do lose the cutaway feature of the vest, but the PC W/C is still more than capable of carrying just about anything you need.
Having worn both systems for real I personally prefer the soft armor with PC over it. It allows me better mobility and still offers outstanding overall protection.
Stay safe.
Ben
Ben
Good to see you here.
Darrin
Ben,
Could you enlighten me as to the mobility advantages and disadvantages of the various systems ?
Thanks.
Ben Lenett
06-16-06, 06:57
Dport:
The plus and minus catagory for both CIRAS models is about the same. It allows you to put on the entire armor package at one time, vice having to put on soft armor and then the PC. You will naturally have more bulk with this system though as a result of the necessary materials, sewing, and load carriage capability.
If you were to get a Low Vis Carrier for the BALCS soft armor inserts, pull them out of the CIRAS and into the Low Vis Carrier, put on a Plate Carrier, then your overall "thickness" if you will is diminished. That Low Vis Carrier isn't going to have nearly as much material as the CIRAS, and the PC obviously is smaller than a CIRAS. This package though will give you the identical protection that a CIRAS would. You are using the same soft ballistics and hard plates that would be in the CIRAS, but they are being suspended differently. That is where you get your added mobility from.
Don't get me wrong. If you are doing true tactical operations, then the CIRAS can't be beat and I am not just saying that because I run the LE Division for Eagle. The added bulk is worth it, as you are locked into a stable system that is capable of carrying anything you could need.
That is one slight downside to the Soft Armor with Plate Carrier option. The two units have a tendency to slide around a bit on eachother. A CIRAS isn't going to do that. The issue is minimal, but it is still there.
I hope that answered your question. If not please let me know.
Darrin, good to see you as well. Thanks.
Stay safe guys.
Ben
Wow,
Thanks for all the great information and insight. Pat, Ben and Darrin you are a wealth of first hand information and I really appreciate your taking the time to share your expertise with us all.
Take Care - Stephen
Wow,
Thanks for all the great information and insight. Pat, Ben and Darrin you are a wealth of first hand information and I really appreciate your taking the time to share your expertise with us all.
Take Care - Stephen
I second that.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your knowlege and educating a newb like myself.
My .02 on the matter.
I have BALCS armor and I just received the Eagle PC with Cummerbund. The only issue that I have with the 2 systems together is due to the overlap on the sides of the BALCS armor, I have had to add more 550 cord to the cummerbund in order to get it to wrap completely. When I let the cummerbund out the eyelets at the end of the elastic are semi-exposed.
I have the XL BALCS and the L/XL Plate carrier and am 6'3, 238 lbs.
Other than that, I am more than happy running this set-up.
Thanks, egg. I am going to give it a shot. Have you seen any noticeable sag when using the shock cord compared to the 550 cord? Thanks again.
no, but then again I haven't put much weight on the CB, the most I've sported was 4 M4 mags just to the left of the middle flap.
I'll have to check on some new stuff I am working on to see about CB loading.
PM me your address and I'll send you a length of bungee to put into your CB
darrin
Egg, thanks for the reply. Check your PM's.
Brian
Here is a link to an article about SPEAR/BALCS armor.
http://www.socom.mil/Archives/2005/Jan/Body_Armor/body_armor.htm
Thanks for the link. I have seen the printed version in the Tip of the Spear, but I have had no luck finding the electronic version.
Voodoochild
08-01-06, 17:45
So what are your thoughts on this rig? Is this able to accept armor plates?
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/421/lemarciraslebigoo7.jpg
Eagle LAW ENFORCEMENT ARMOR CARRIER, RELEASABLE
(RELEASABLE CIRAS)
Very nice read, been looking into armor for close to the same reasons.
:cool:
Steve:
This is a confusing and complex subject. Try bulletproofme.com for a little primer on body armor. They also sell Police surplus kevlar vests and new plates at reasonable prices. Once you have your armor suite figured out, then look at a carrier. The optimum choice is an integrated unit, such as a Paraclete RAV, Eagle CIRAS, TAG Spartan, HSGI Centurion, etc. Eagle makes a LEO version of their rig at a substantial savings over the mil-spec releasable vests (mostly a water ops feature). These units are the best because you can run hard and/or soft armor as required and also have PALS webbing for hanging on your pouch load out; no separate ammo vest required.
Wow. First let me say this thread has been very educational and thanks to the variety of expertise that has supplied that knowledge. Especially want to thank Ben Lenett for his time in doing so.
I have been using Eagle gear for years and they continue to impress with their dedication to both present and future customers.
I have long considered the purchase of a CIRAS but presently use a simple SKD chest rig seeing my day to day requirements are not HSLD. That was a long time ago as a much younger man. :D
This thread has served to identify the advantages of both the CIRAS all in one and a seperation of Vest and PC.
Thanks,
Johnny
EDIT: Seeing my day to day job does not require the use of Body Armor, what would be the best of both worlds for Tactical Classes, 3 Gun Matches. Assume the SKD is just fine.
Who's IIIA soft armor is worth looking at?
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000502
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/440107306/m/1471013632
Can civilians even buy a PACA LevelIII low vis vest?
Dinger - talk to Stephen at ATS...
back to BALCS etc.
I've run a RAV and now CIRAS-M. I find (for my use) the intergrated system is best (I need more real estate than a PC offers). I've tried other systems before - both set armor and vest -amd soft and PC/TV's. I know gusy that prefer the opposite so I'd put it to personal prefernce as well as job description.
I have both Paraclete and ProTech IIIA Soft Armor - and Protech LIV and Bulletproofme.coms LIII Poly plates, each fufill a role.
I hate to be a baglicker (esp since I see Ben is on board now) but I find the CIRAS-M too be a 100% improvment over the 2004RAV I had -- and way beyond the CIRAS-L which I hate.. .(so much for sucking up). The CIRAS_M is extremly close fitting (much more comfortable) and unlike the RAV and CIRAS-L does not "sway" or have Cumberbund issues.
oh and it costs less than the RAV...
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000502
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/440107306/m/1471013632
Doc, thanks BIG TIME! I tried to digest as much of that as I could and make sense of it all.
I wasn't asking just for myself either. My GF is a sworn officer. Took a look
at her issue vest (Zero-G) and what did I find there? Level II Gold 4.0 panels.
Now, Safariland certainly doesn't seem to out of their way to actually tell you on their website what the panels are made of but I DID manage to dig THIS up:
Brand: ZERO G GOLD, Model: LEVEL II, Commodity# 68008118046
SAFARILAND, ZERO G GOLD BALLISTIC VEST WITH 5 X 8" SOFT TRAUMA DEVICE AND CARRIER. SPECIFICATIONS: - NIJ THREAT LEVEL: II - VERSION NUMBER: 4.0 - PANEL WEIGHT** AREAL WT. (LBS); .74 (GRAMS/DEC SQ): 36 - THICKNESS INCHES: .16 MILLIMETERS: 4.1 - V-50S (FPS) 9MM: 1591 - 9MM RPI (V-50/AW)*** 2035 - CONSTRUCTION: HYBRID - MATERIAL: GOLDFLEX, KEVLAR, SPECTRA- SHIELD-PLUS - STYLES (SHAPE) ...
To me, the layperson, this looks like a Goldflex/Kevlar hybrid vest, am I right here? With the pitfall being that its not resistant to contact shots?
JLM,
You are correct in your assumptions re. this "Gold" vest. Note that the Safariland "Silver" package has demonstrated better protective qualities than their more expensive "Gold" and "Platinum" packages...
JLM,
You are correct in your assumptions re. this "Gold" vest. Note that the Safariland "Silver" package has demonstrated better protective qualities than their more expensive "Gold" and "Platinum" packages...
Thanks Gary. That does not give me a 'warm fuzzy' knowing that is what she is wearing. Its probably what the whole department is wearing as well :mad:
Thanks Gary. That does not give me a 'warm fuzzy' knowing that is what she is wearing. Its probably what the whole department is wearing as well :mad:
ETA: I might try to persuede them to 'contact shoot' one of their spare vests if they have any. What's the safeest way to do it?
Also, while I know who you are and your creds, the powers that be here probably do not. Do you have a CV available somewhere? That way they won't just bat their eyes and say 'whatever, that's just stuff on the Errornet'.
Thanks man :D
This has been one of the most informative threads I've read about BA on the internet. I think your choice is context-driven; if you are already wearing soft armor, then a PC w/cumberbund makes the most sense. If you're not wearing any armor and need to jock up, then the CIRAS type unit makes the most sense. Ironically, this is also the best choice for planned (more or less) tactical/ high risk work.
One saw, oft repeated, is it's better to have slightly less coverage or threat level pro and wear it all the time, than have the top of the line stuff and never wear it cuz it's so darn hot and heavy. A good level II vest, with some in-conjunction plates at the ready might be a good way to go. I'm also looking at steel plates again for the reduced thickness and weight.
Dinger - talk to Stephen at ATS...
back to BALCS etc.
I've run a RAV and now CIRAS-M. I find (for my use) the intergrated system is best (I need more real estate than a PC offers). I've tried other systems before - both set armor and vest -amd soft and PC/TV's. I know gusy that prefer the opposite so I'd put it to personal prefernce as well as job description.
I have both Paraclete and ProTech IIIA Soft Armor - and Protech LIV and Bulletproofme.coms LIII Poly plates, each fufill a role.
I hate to be a baglicker (esp since I see Ben is on board now) but I find the CIRAS-M too be a 100% improvment over the 2004RAV I had -- and way beyond the CIRAS-L which I hate.. .(so much for sucking up). The CIRAS_M is extremly close fitting (much more comfortable) and unlike the RAV and CIRAS-L does not "sway" or have Cumberbund issues.
oh and it costs less than the RAV...
KevinB,
A few questions,
How long have you owned and worn the CIRAS_M?
Are there any drawbacks in your opinion to daily wear?
What job descriptions would you state the CIRAS_M would limit you in if at all?
Thanks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.